15:48:48 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #soap-jms
15:48:48 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/06/03-soap-jms-irc
15:48:55 <RolandMerrick> Zakim, list
15:48:55 <Zakim> I see SW_HCLS(Bio-Ont WG)11:00AM, SW_SWD()11:00AM, SW_RIF()11:00AM, INC_RWAB()11:00AM, XML_ET-TF()11:00AM active
15:48:57 <Zakim> also scheduled at this time are WS_SAWSDL()12:00PM, SW_HCLS(Chairs)12:00PM, VB_VBWG()10:00AM, SW_DAWG()10:30AM, MWI_TSWG()11:00AM, WS_SOAP-JM()12:00PM
15:49:17 <RolandMerrick> Zakim, this will be WS_SOAP-JM
15:49:17 <Zakim> ok, RolandMerrick; I see WS_SOAP-JM()12:00PM scheduled to start in 11 minutes
15:49:46 <Roland> Roland has joined #soap-jms
15:49:50 <PhilAdams> PhilAdams has joined #soap-jms
15:50:23 <Roland> Meeting: SOAP-JMS WG teleconference
15:50:31 <Phil> Phil has joined #soap-jms
15:50:42 <Roland> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-soap-jms/2008Jun/0000.html
15:50:51 <Roland> Chair: Roland
15:51:04 <Roland> rrsagent, make minutes
15:51:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/03-soap-jms-minutes.html Roland
15:51:14 <Roland> rrsagent, make log public
15:55:03 <Zakim> WS_SOAP-JM()12:00PM has now started
15:55:10 <Zakim> +alewis
15:57:38 <Zakim> +Roland
15:58:10 <peaston> peaston has joined #soap-jms
15:58:57 <Zakim> +Peter
15:59:32 <Zakim> +Derek
16:00:14 <Derek> Derek has joined #soap-jms
16:00:42 <Zakim> +[IBM]
16:01:18 <Roland> Zakim, IBM is Phil
16:01:18 <Zakim> +Phil; got it
16:01:20 <Zakim> + +1.408.667.aaaa
16:01:35 <alewis> alewis has joined #soap-jms
16:02:03 <Roland> Zakim, aaaa is Bhakti
16:02:03 <Zakim> +Bhakti; got it
16:02:19 <Zakim> + +0196287aabb
16:03:15 <mphillip> mphillip has joined #soap-jms
16:03:24 <Zakim> +Yves
16:03:33 <Roland> Zakim, aabb is mphilip
16:03:33 <Zakim> +mphilip; got it
16:03:49 <Zakim> -Bhakti
16:04:23 <Zakim> + +1.408.956.aacc
16:04:43 <Roland> Zakim, aacc is Bhakti
16:04:43 <Zakim> +Bhakti; got it
16:05:17 <Roland> Regrets: Eric
16:05:56 <mphillip> hair: Roland
16:06:02 <mphillip> chair: Roland
16:06:05 <Roland> Scribe: mphilip
16:07:05 <mphillip> TOPIC: Testing
16:08:05 <mphillip> Yves:  Soap-HTTP binding was tested by examining the messages that flowed.  Suggest testing soap-jms by intercepting the JMS API.
16:08:32 <Yves> http://www.w3.org/2000/xp/Group/2/03/soap1.2implementation.html
16:10:36 <plh> plh has joined #soap-jms
16:10:47 <Zakim> +Plh
16:12:06 <mphillip> Peter has marked up both spec. XML documents with ed. notes to identify assertions.  
16:14:41 <plh> example: <where/>        <forall/> x, y : components @ <nl/>        <t1/>   Id(x) = Id(y) <implies/> x = y  <also/>        componentIds = {~x : components @ Id(x)~}
16:15:54 <mphillip> Looking for precedents for marking up assertions: the normative WSDL spec. used a markup style and WS-I took a similar approach
16:17:19 <mphillip> alewis: We should check for correctness of RFC2119 keywords in the spec.
16:19:08 <mphillip> peaston: There are approximately 50 assertions
16:19:54 <bhakti> bhakti has joined #soap-jms
16:22:50 <plh> http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/ws/desc/
16:22:51 <mphillip> alewis: Using markup for assertions helps to make the specification more effective
16:23:37 <Yves> databiding did build the spec from the example, using lots of XSLT, but that's too extreme for us.
16:24:43 <mphillip> ACTION: peaston to Take a look at the way that WSDL assertions are marked up and to try and apply it to soap-jms spec.  
16:24:43 <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-8 - Take a look at the way that WSDL assertions are marked up and to try and apply it to soap-jms spec.   [on Peter Easton - due 2008-06-10].
16:27:25 <mphillip> (Arthur was instrumental in formalizing the assertions in WSDL - and writing a non-normative version in Z notation)
16:28:19 <mphillip> TOPIC: Proposals on the approach to testing
16:28:55 <Derek> Derek has joined #soap-jms
16:29:40 <mphillip> Phil and alewis have each made a proposal
16:31:38 <mphillip> alewis: There are 2 profiles soap+wsdl and soap alone.  for WSDL we simply need a validation tool.  For SOAP, the proposal is to define a canonical XML schema for JMS messages - which will allow us to validate messages constructed by producers & consumers
16:32:37 <mphillip> alewis: The tests would involve the implementation calling a message parser to check the correctness of messages.
16:33:46 <mphillip> alewis: This proposal does not state how the test framework and test cases are structured
16:35:24 <mphillip> Phil: This approach focuses on driving each implementation using mocked up partner code - so a producer would be tested against a mocked up consumer and vice-versa
16:36:25 <mphillip> Phil: Validation would be carried out using a similar schema based canonical representation of messages 
16:37:16 <mphillip> Roland: There are two things to test - the specifications, and the conformance of implementations
16:39:53 <mphillip> Roland: i.e. is the specification complete, correct, consistent,  and can it be implemented?
16:42:05 <mphillip> alewis: (apart from "Z") there aren't tools to test the spec. but implementing it and developing test cases is a good way to tighten a spec. 
16:43:14 <mphillip> Phil and alewis will continue to discuss their proposals and will aim for a  single proposal - or to find some common ground - by next week
16:44:34 <Zakim> -Plh
16:44:36 <Zakim> -Bhakti
16:44:37 <Zakim> -Phil
16:44:37 <Zakim> -Peter
16:44:38 <mphillip> next meeting - same time next week
16:44:38 <Zakim> -Derek
16:44:39 <Zakim> -Yves
16:44:40 <Zakim> -alewis
16:44:40 <Zakim> -Roland
16:44:46 <Zakim> -mphilip
16:44:47 <Zakim> WS_SOAP-JM()12:00PM has ended
16:44:48 <Zakim> Attendees were alewis, Roland, Peter, Derek, Phil, +1.408.667.aaaa, Bhakti, +0196287aabb, Yves, mphilip, +1.408.956.aacc, Plh
16:44:59 <mphillip> rrsagent, generate minutes
16:44:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/03-soap-jms-minutes.html mphillip
17:00:05 <plh> plh has left #soap-jms
18:36:35 <Zakim> Zakim has left #soap-jms