16:53:01 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #owl
16:53:01 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/05/28-owl-irc
16:53:09 <Elisa> Elisa has joined #owl
16:53:12 <Rinke> RRSAgent, make records public
16:53:19 <Rinke> Zakim, this will be owl
16:53:19 <Zakim> ok, Rinke; I see SW_OWL()12:00PM scheduled to start 53 minutes ago
16:55:07 <JeremyCarroll> JeremyCarroll has joined #owl
16:55:53 <ivan> ivan has joined #owl
16:56:07 <JeremyCarroll> JeremyCarroll has changed the topic to: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Teleconference.2008.05.28/Agenda
16:56:07 <alanr> alanr has joined #owl
16:56:22 <JeremyCarroll> Zakim, this will be OWL
16:56:22 <Zakim> ok, JeremyCarroll; I see SW_OWL()12:00PM scheduled to start 56 minutes ago
16:56:52 <bmotik> bmotik has joined #owl
16:56:55 <Rinke> RRSAgent, pointer?
16:56:55 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2008/05/28-owl-irc#T16-56-55
16:57:23 <Zakim> SW_OWL()12:00PM has now started
16:57:30 <Zakim> +??P14
16:57:34 <ewallace> ewallace has joined #owl
16:57:35 <bmotik> Zakim, ??P14 is me
16:57:35 <Zakim> +bmotik; got it
16:57:41 <bmotik> Zakim, mute me
16:57:41 <Zakim> sorry, bmotik, muting is not permitted when only one person is present
16:57:50 <Zakim> +Elisa_Kendall
16:57:54 <bmotik> Zakim, mute me
16:57:54 <Zakim> bmotik should now be muted
16:58:00 <Zakim> +??P16
16:58:07 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
16:58:07 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
16:58:09 <Zakim> +Ivan
16:58:09 <JeremyCarroll> Zakim, ??P16 is me
16:58:09 <Zakim> +JeremyCarroll; got it
16:58:14 <JeremyCarroll> Zakim, mute me
16:58:14 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll should now be muted
16:58:19 <Zakim> + +31.20.525.aaaa
16:58:22 <JeremyCarroll> q-
16:58:25 <Rinke> zakim, aaaa is me
16:58:26 <Zakim> +Rinke; got it
16:58:41 <ivan> zakim, mute me
16:58:41 <Zakim> Ivan should now be muted
16:58:45 <MartinD> MartinD has joined #OWL
16:58:58 <pfps> pfps has joined #owl
16:59:10 <Zakim> +IanH
16:59:16 <Zhe> Zhe has joined #owl
16:59:16 <Zakim> +Alan
16:59:18 <JeffP> JeffP has joined #owl
16:59:30 <Zakim> + +0190827aabb
16:59:32 <Zakim> +Peter_Patel-Schneider
16:59:40 <MartinD> zakim, aabb is me
16:59:40 <Zakim> +MartinD; got it
16:59:43 <Zakim> +Evan_Wallace
16:59:47 <MartinD> zakim, mute me
16:59:47 <Zakim> MartinD should now be muted
17:00:36 <m_schnei> m_schnei has joined #owl
17:00:44 <msmith> msmith has joined #owl
17:00:56 <alanr> I see 1pm exactly. my time right?
17:01:00 <uli> uli has joined #owl
17:01:12 <sandro> alanr, sorry for late regrets (just e-mailed) 
17:01:15 <Zakim> + +1.202.408.aacc
17:01:21 <Zakim> +Torbjorn
17:01:30 <sandro> RRSAgent, pointer?
17:01:30 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2008/05/28-owl-irc#T17-01-30
17:01:31 <Zakim> +Zhe
17:01:43 <sandro> alanr, I'll wikifiy the minutes later tonight.
17:02:00 <alanr> ok, thanks sandro
17:02:03 <Achille> Achille has joined #owl
17:02:16 <m_schnei> zakim,Torbjorn is me
17:02:16 <Zakim> +m_schnei; got it
17:02:27 <Zakim> +??P26
17:02:34 <uli> zakim, ??P26 is me
17:02:34 <Zakim> +uli; got it
17:02:45 <Zakim> +[IBM]
17:02:50 <uli> zakim, mute me
17:02:50 <Zakim> uli should now be muted
17:02:55 <Rinke> scribenick: Zhe
17:02:55 <Zhe> ScibeNick: Zhe
17:02:59 <Achille> Zakim, IBM is Achille
17:02:59 <Zakim> +Achille; got it
17:03:07 <m_schnei> zakim, mute me
17:03:08 <Zakim> m_schnei should now be muted
17:03:38 <Zakim> +qhreul
17:03:59 <JeffP> zakim, qhreul is me
17:03:59 <Zakim> +JeffP; got it
17:04:33 <alanr> zakim, who is here?
17:04:33 <Zakim> On the phone I see bmotik (muted), Elisa_Kendall, JeremyCarroll (muted), Ivan (muted), Rinke, IanH (muted), Alan, MartinD (muted), Peter_Patel-Schneider, Evan_Wallace, msmith,
17:04:36 <Zakim> ... m_schnei (muted), Zhe, uli (muted), Achille, JeffP
17:04:37 <Zakim> On IRC I see Achille, uli, msmith, m_schnei, JeffP, Zhe, pfps, MartinD, ewallace, bmotik, alanr, ivan, JeremyCarroll, Elisa, RRSAgent, Zakim, Rinke, IanH, sandro, trackbot-ng
17:04:55 <Zhe> Topic: accept previous minutes  
17:05:06 <pfps> minutes are not great
17:05:09 <Zhe> PROPOSED: accept previous previous minutes http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Teleconference.2008.05.21/Minutes
17:05:31 <Carsten> Carsten has joined #owl
17:05:42 <msmith> there was a lot of zakim-ness, but they were sufficient for me to understand what I missed.
17:05:44 <pfps> potentially out-of-order stuff
17:06:09 <pfps> also strange blue right parenthesis
17:06:10 <Zhe> alanr: Jeff, need more work?
17:06:26 <Zhe> JeffP: tried to incorporate Peter's comments
17:06:28 <pfps> around issue-124 start
17:06:49 <Zhe> alanr: consider it not ready
17:07:01 <alanr> PROPOSED: Thank Jeremy Carroll for his exemplary service to the WG and wish him well in his new employment
17:07:07 <pfps> the scribe should really be looking for problems related to the non-synchronous nature of the meeting
17:07:10 <Zhe> alanr: Jeremy's last meeting. we all thank him!
17:07:11 <m_schnei> +1 
17:07:13 <pfps> +2
17:07:16 <Rinke> +3
17:07:18 <JeremyCarroll> Zakim, unmute me
17:07:18 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll should no longer be muted
17:07:19 <alanr> +1
17:07:21 <JeffP> +1
17:07:23 <ivan> +infinite
17:07:24 <bmotik> +1
17:07:25 <msmith> +1
17:07:27 <IanH> +1
17:07:27 <uli> +1
17:07:29 <Elisa> +1
17:07:30 <ewallace> +!
17:07:30 <Zhe> +
17:07:31 <pfps> no - you can vote for yourself
17:07:32 <Zhe> +1
17:07:40 <alanr> RESOLVED: Thanks Jeremy Carroll for his exemplary service to the WG and wish him well in his new employment
17:07:41 <JeremyCarroll> Zakim, mute me
17:07:41 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll should now be muted
17:07:42 <Zakim> +??P11
17:07:53 <Carsten> zakim, p11 is me
17:07:53 <Zakim> sorry, Carsten, I do not recognize a party named 'p11'
17:08:00 <Carsten> zakim, ??p11 is me
17:08:00 <Zakim> +Carsten; got it
17:08:14 <Zhe> Topic: Action items status
17:08:25 <Zhe> alanr: pending review actions
17:08:28 <Carsten> zakim, mute me
17:08:28 <Zakim> Carsten should now be muted
17:08:45 <Zhe> Action 143 Put editorial note in profiles document
17:09:06 <Zhe> postpone action 42
17:09:31 <msmith> that's fine, I already emailed sandro about it
17:09:42 <Zhe> Action 43  Develop scripts to extract test cases from wiki. closed.
17:09:54 <Zhe> Action 139 Sheperd/coordinate the patching process (per ISSUE 119) 
17:10:12 <Zhe> IanH: good progress made. 
17:10:45 <Zhe> ... don't mind leaving it open
17:10:59 <Zhe> alanr: estimation?
17:11:08 <Zhe> IanH: something before next F2F
17:11:09 <m_schnei> zakim, unmute me
17:11:09 <Zakim> m_schnei should no longer be muted
17:11:25 <Zhe> m_schnei: itself can be closed
17:11:36 <Zhe> ... 109 should be left open
17:11:51 <Zhe> ... expect to have the first draft somewhere in June
17:12:08 <Zhe> ... so we have enough time before F2F. I am working on it.
17:12:16 <Rinke> s/109/119
17:12:24 <Zhe> thanks
17:12:50 <m_schnei> zakim, mute me
17:12:50 <Zakim> m_schnei should now be muted
17:12:58 <Zhe> Topic: Issues
17:13:11 <Zhe> Issue 21 and Issue 24 Imports and Versioning
17:13:13 <IanH> zakim, unmute me
17:13:13 <Zakim> IanH should no longer be muted
17:13:21 <Zhe> IanH chair this 
17:13:46 <Zhe> IanH: already have text based on Peter, Boris, AlanR's discussion
17:13:53 <Zhe> IanH: alanr has some issues 
17:14:07 <alanr> http://www.w3.org/mid/9581.1211993947@ubuhebe
17:14:40 <IanH> q?
17:14:46 <alanr> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008May/0176.html
17:14:48 <Zhe> alanr: first one, not importing multi version of the same ontology
17:15:07 <bmotik> Zakim, unmute me
17:15:07 <Zakim> bmotik should no longer be muted
17:15:08 <alanr> owl:incompatibleWith
17:15:23 <Zhe> ... second, owl:incompatibleWith
17:15:24 <bmotik> Alan, can you please repeat the first point?
17:15:26 <IanH> q?
17:15:48 <m_schnei> q+
17:15:51 <pfps> q+ to talk about timing
17:15:52 <IanH> q?
17:15:56 <m_schnei> zakim, unmute me
17:15:56 <Zakim> m_schnei should no longer be muted
17:15:56 <Zhe> IanH: not clear that we can resolve it now
17:16:02 <alanr> first point in 0176.html
17:16:16 <Zhe> m_schnei: issue 21 about import, not clear to me
17:16:33 <bmotik> q+
17:16:34 <Rinke> my questions were adequately answered by Boris' answer
17:16:41 <Rinke> to my email
17:17:00 <pfps> q-
17:17:02 <alanr> q?
17:17:04 <m_schnei> zakim, mute me
17:17:04 <Zakim> m_schnei should now be muted
17:17:06 <Zhe> ... if two onotlogies are marked incompatible,
17:17:10 <IanH> q?
17:17:25 <JeremyCarroll> q- m_schnei
17:17:28 <Zhe> bmotik: answer to alanr's comment
17:18:08 <Zhe> ... it is better to say nothing when multi version imported
17:18:15 <JeremyCarroll> +1 to emphasising positives
17:18:21 <m_schnei> issue 24 is actually: "Make it be that importing two ontologies which are noted  to be incompatible leads to an 
17:18:22 <m_schnei> inconsistent ontology."
17:18:31 <Zhe> ... current spec says nothing when multi version imported
17:18:43 <Zhe> ... if you need validation, it is out of the scope
17:18:44 <alanr> q?
17:18:47 <alanr> q+
17:18:51 <alanr> ack bmotik
17:19:00 <IanH> q?
17:19:05 <Zhe> IanH: all versions are treated as advisory, rather than formal
17:19:36 <Zhe> bmotik: you get the union of multi versions. spec provides no mechanism for detecting this
17:19:43 <IanH> q?
17:19:45 <alanr> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Apr/0212.html
17:19:54 <Zhe> ... you can implement on top of OWL 2. 
17:20:05 <m_schnei> q+
17:20:17 <IanH> q?
17:20:25 <IanH> ack alanr
17:21:08 <Zhe> bmotik: i implemented what I thought we agreed.
17:22:25 <Zhe> IanH: alanr, are you arguing about what you want, or the process
17:22:26 <IanH> q?
17:23:19 <m_schnei> zakim, unmute me
17:23:19 <Zakim> m_schnei should no longer be muted
17:23:21 <Zhe> alanr: at the workshop, we did not have a solution
17:23:27 <m_schnei> zakim, mute me
17:23:27 <Zakim> m_schnei should now be muted
17:23:33 <Zhe> ... but peter sent a followup email
17:23:55 <alanr> An ontology SHOULD NOT import multiple versions of the same ontology,
17:23:56 <alanr> i.e., different ontology documents with the same ontology URI but that
17:23:56 <alanr> do not share an owl:versionInfo annotation value
17:23:59 <Zhe> IanH: alanr, you like the SPEC to include precise statement on what will happen if two versions of the same ontology are imported
17:24:04 <Zhe> ... ?
17:24:47 <JeremyCarroll> q+ to respond to SHOULD
17:25:00 <IanH> q?
17:25:14 <Zhe> alanr: like to say what peter said that ontology should not import multi versions
17:25:29 <Zhe> bmotik: spec is precise on that.
17:25:33 <m_schnei> zakim, unmute me
17:25:33 <Zakim> m_schnei should no longer be muted
17:26:13 <alanr> q?
17:26:18 <pfps> q+ to respond to inconsistent issue
17:26:38 <bmotik> +q
17:26:48 <alanr> although, I am not suggesting now necessarily that there is inconsistent. This would require more work. 
17:26:50 <m_schnei> zakim, mute me
17:26:50 <Zakim> m_schnei should now be muted
17:26:53 <JeremyCarroll> Zakim, unmute me
17:26:53 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll should no longer be muted
17:26:57 <IanH> q?
17:27:00 <ewallace> are different versions of the same ontology implicitly incompatibleWith each other?
17:27:01 <msmith> For SHOULD NOT, see http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2119.txt bullet 4.
17:27:03 <IanH> ack m_schnei
17:27:09 <IanH> q?
17:27:16 <m_schnei> q-
17:27:20 <m_schnei> zakim, mute me
17:27:20 <Zakim> m_schnei should now be muted
17:27:28 <Zakim> -Rinke
17:27:28 <Zakim> -Carsten
17:27:30 <Zakim> -bmotik
17:27:32 <Zakim> -uli
17:27:35 <Rinke> oh dear
17:27:41 <IanH> q?
17:27:44 <Zhe> JeremyCarroll: import TF is not decisive
17:27:59 <alanr> +1
17:28:10 <Zhe> IanH: to be fair, everyone thought we agreed. and implemented what agreed.
17:28:10 <IanH> q?
17:28:13 <bmotik> I got kicked off the phone line and can't dial back in
17:28:17 <Rinke> me too
17:28:42 <pfps> is W3C Bristol link down?
17:28:48 <IanH> what are the symptoms?
17:28:51 <JeffP> I am still in
17:28:53 <Rinke> I'm calling france
17:28:56 <JeremyCarroll> I am coming through US
17:28:56 <IanH> I am via Bristol with no problems
17:28:58 <alanr> q?
17:28:58 <Zakim> +??P4
17:29:04 <bmotik> Zakim, ??p4 is me
17:29:04 <Zakim> +bmotik; got it
17:29:04 <JeremyCarroll> q-
17:29:07 <JeffP> using the UK number I mean
17:29:08 <bmotik> I'm back
17:29:08 <Carsten> kicked out by France as well
17:29:38 <Zhe> keep trying 
17:29:39 <JeremyCarroll> Boris redialled a few times but got back in
17:29:40 <IanH> Keep trying -- works eventually
17:29:57 <JeremyCarroll> Zakim, mutes me
17:29:57 <Zakim> I don't understand 'mutes me', JeremyCarroll
17:30:02 <alanr> zakim, who is here?
17:30:02 <Zakim> On the phone I see Elisa_Kendall, JeremyCarroll, Ivan (muted), IanH, Alan, MartinD (muted), Peter_Patel-Schneider, Evan_Wallace, msmith, m_schnei (muted), Zhe, Achille, JeffP,
17:30:02 <JeremyCarroll> Zakim, mute me
17:30:06 <Zakim> ... bmotik
17:30:07 <Zakim> On IRC I see Carsten, Achille, uli, msmith, m_schnei, JeffP, Zhe, pfps, MartinD, ewallace, bmotik, alanr, ivan, JeremyCarroll, Elisa, RRSAgent, Zakim, Rinke, IanH, sandro,
17:30:09 <Zakim> ... trackbot-ng
17:30:09 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll should now be muted
17:30:10 <JeremyCarroll> uli
17:30:23 <JeremyCarroll> Rinke Carsten
17:30:24 <IanH> q?
17:30:31 <uli> I am trying to come back...
17:30:41 <Rinke> me too 
17:30:55 <Zhe> IanH: Jeremy said that SHOULD is the right thing to say
17:31:00 <Zakim> +??P11
17:31:03 <uli> ...it's occupied
17:31:04 <Zhe> pfps: agree with Jeremy
17:31:07 <Carsten> zakim, ??p11 is me
17:31:07 <Zakim> +Carsten; got it
17:31:13 <Carsten> zakim, mute me
17:31:13 <Zakim> Carsten should now be muted
17:31:22 <bmotik> +q
17:31:26 <Zhe> pfps: happy with the way it is. Put SHOULD in to make some folks happy
17:31:30 <uli> ahaa
17:31:36 <Zakim> +Rinke
17:31:38 <Zakim> +??P13
17:31:39 <Zhe> ... right now, SHOULD is not there
17:31:40 <Rinke> I'm back!
17:31:48 <uli> zakim, ??P13 is me
17:31:48 <Zakim> +uli; got it
17:31:52 <ivan> :-)
17:31:53 <IanH> q?
17:31:54 <uli> zakim, mute me
17:31:55 <Zakim> uli should now be muted
17:32:02 <IanH> ack bmotik
17:32:03 <pfps> q-
17:32:09 <alanr> q?
17:32:11 <alanr> q+
17:32:12 <Rinke> Should should make me happy
17:32:17 <Zhe> bmotik: sure. that is ok. if we can close the issue
17:32:17 <IanH> q?
17:32:19 <JeremyCarroll> for me the should is quite ugly too ...
17:32:23 <IanH> ack alanr
17:32:43 <IanH> q?
17:32:48 <alanr> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008May/0177.html
17:33:11 <Zhe> IanH: think it is useful. maybe we can converge and resolve it
17:33:15 <IanH> q?
17:34:52 <Zhe> alanr: think it is just editorial. 
17:34:53 <IanH> q?
17:35:17 <Zhe> ... owl:incompatibleWith, shall we discuss it as a separate issue?
17:35:57 <m_schnei> currently, AFAIU, all ontology properties are treated as annotations, in particular owl:incompatibleWith
17:36:16 <IanH> q?
17:36:16 <Zhe> IanH: it is semantic free
17:36:34 <Zhe> alanr: it carries some weight on what people think their tools should do
17:37:03 <IanH> q?
17:37:05 <bmotik> q+
17:37:05 <alanr> http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2119.txt
17:37:06 <Rinke> +1 to IanH on explaining the SHOULDs, MAYs and MUSTs
17:37:07 <Zhe> IanH: like to have some text clarifying "SHOULD"
17:37:18 <JeremyCarroll> q+
17:37:20 <uli> perhaps we can have a brief explanation that explain why this "should"
17:37:22 <Zhe> ... at least add a pointer. 
17:37:32 <JeremyCarroll> zakim, unmute me
17:37:32 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll should no longer be muted
17:37:39 <alanr> q?
17:37:39 <uli> e.g., that different version could lead to inconsistencies 
17:37:40 <m_schnei> distinguishing between model-theoretic "reasoning" semantics, and "usage" semantics
17:37:44 <IanH> q?
17:38:16 <Zhe> bmotik: I changed the text. took out the offending paragraph. add "SHOULD NOT"...
17:38:26 <Zhe> ... hope it solves the problem
17:38:56 <IanH> q?
17:38:58 <bmotik> +q
17:38:59 <Zhe> Jeremy: IanH raised a good point that SHOULD is advisory
17:39:06 <IanH> q?
17:39:20 <bmotik> q-
17:39:21 <bmotik> q+
17:39:35 <alanr> but why should we say anything about what happens when you don't do a SHOULD
17:39:39 <alanr> q+
17:39:58 <JeremyCarroll> q-
17:40:01 <IanH> q?
17:40:08 <JeremyCarroll> Zakim, mute me
17:40:08 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll should now be muted
17:40:21 <Zhe> bmotik: for SHOULD, MAY, ..., there is a disclaimer at the beginning
17:40:30 <IanH> q?
17:40:36 <IanH> ack bmotik
17:40:39 <IanH> q?
17:40:45 <alanr> nono not suggesting that!
17:40:56 <Zhe> ... against chaning model theory for incompatibleWith
17:41:10 <alanr> yes!
17:41:14 <Rinke> that would be great
17:41:14 <m_schnei> i would also be against giving a model-theoretic semantics to owl:incompatibleWith
17:41:20 <IanH> q?
17:41:31 <pfps> +1 to boris's suggestion
17:41:32 <IanH> ack alanr
17:41:37 <Zhe> alanr: don't want to change semantics as well
17:41:53 <m_schnei> (but in OWL Full, this property of course *has* a model-theoretic semantics ;-))
17:42:32 <Zhe> bmotik: prefer lower case and do a review. Later, change systematically
17:42:39 <JeremyCarroll> I prefer that 'should' doesn't occur except as SHOULD
17:42:47 <IanH> q?
17:42:52 <Rinke> +1 to JeremyCarroll 
17:42:59 <ewallace> If we know we mean SHOULD now lets say it
17:43:20 <JeremyCarroll> q+
17:43:22 <alanr> use 
17:43:25 <IanH> q?
17:43:25 <alanr> ought
17:43:26 <JeremyCarroll> zakim, unmute me
17:43:26 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll should no longer be muted
17:43:35 <alanr> s/should/ought/
17:43:42 <alanr> +1
17:43:44 <Zhe> JeremyCarrol: you can always rephrase "should"
17:43:58 <Zhe> ... make things simple for the readers
17:44:46 <IanH> q?
17:45:10 <JeremyCarroll> Zakim, mute me
17:45:10 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll should now be muted
17:45:23 <Zhe> IanH: we all in agreement now? 
17:45:25 <IanH> q?
17:45:42 <JeremyCarroll> q-
17:45:46 <Zhe> alanr: bmotik, are you going to put something similar for incompatibleWith?
17:46:30 <pfps> +1 to taking a vote :-)
17:46:37 <Rinke> +1 to vote
17:47:14 <uli> ...and in this case?
17:47:20 <uli> me too!
17:47:27 <Zhe> IanH: are we voting on should => SHOULD, 
17:47:33 <Zhe> ... or incompatibleWith?
17:47:42 <alanr> resolve SHOULD NOT import multiple ontologies or owlIncompatibleWith
17:47:43 <Rinke> I suggest we vote on the issues first
17:47:59 <JeremyCarroll> +1 to caps or something
17:48:13 <ewallace> +1 to caps
17:49:12 <IanH> PROPOSED: spec should state that an ontology SHOULD not import two incompatible versions
17:49:22 <Rinke> We have two official issues, let's vote on them separately.
17:49:25 <pfps> s/SHOULD not/SHOULD NOT/
17:49:34 <m_schnei> +1 to SHOULD NOT
17:49:43 <Rinke> This is to resolve ISSUE-24 right?
17:49:45 <bmotik> Proposed text: Furthermore, O should not import an ontology O' with a version URI vu if O contains an ontology annotation owl:incompatibleWith with the value vu. 
17:49:58 <JeremyCarroll> +0 to proposal
17:50:38 <IanH> ROPOSED: spec should state that an ontology SHOULD NOT q?
17:50:43 <IanH> q?
17:51:00 <Zhe> IanH: getting too much details in wording
17:51:08 <ivan> +1 to Ian
17:51:10 <Carsten> +1
17:51:12 <Zhe> ... it would be better if you guys figure this out precisely offline
17:51:15 <Zhe> +1
17:51:15 <uli> +1
17:51:16 <JeffP> +1 Ian
17:51:18 <alanr> +1
17:51:23 <m_schnei> +1, this is a wording issue
17:51:35 <ewallace> +1 on narrowly wordsmithing this res offline
17:52:09 <JeffP> action?
17:52:10 <Zhe> IanH: enough discussion on this issue. come back next week 
17:52:24 <m_schnei> do we want an action on this?
17:52:35 <Zhe> Issue 124 (newly open) The complement of a datarange is defined relative to the whole data domain
17:53:02 <Zhe> alanr: consensus is this is how things are. 
17:53:07 <m_schnei> q+
17:53:12 <m_schnei> zakim, unmute me
17:53:12 <Zakim> m_schnei should no longer be muted
17:53:17 <alanr> ack m_schnei
17:53:35 <Zhe> m_schnei: bmotik's comments are valid. The only thing is 
17:53:43 <m_schnei> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008May/0018.html
17:54:02 <bmotik> +q
17:54:03 <Zhe> ... we could have this thing in the primer.
17:54:27 <Zhe> ... suspect people will ask how to do complement on just the data type
17:54:29 <m_schnei> zakim, mute me
17:54:29 <Zakim> m_schnei should now be muted
17:54:41 <alanr> PROPOSED: The complement of a datarange is defined relative to the whole data domain (close as resolved issue 124)
17:54:41 <bmotik> -q
17:54:50 <JeremyCarroll> q+
17:54:50 <m_schnei> zakim, unmute me
17:54:50 <alanr> q?
17:54:51 <Zakim> m_schnei should no longer be muted
17:55:00 <JeremyCarroll> Zakim, unmute me
17:55:00 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll should no longer be muted
17:55:31 <Zhe> alanr: m_schnei can put a comment in the primer
17:55:35 <m_schnei> zakim, mute me
17:55:35 <Zakim> m_schnei should now be muted
17:56:06 <m_schnei> q+
17:56:10 <uli> q+
17:56:15 <m_schnei> zakim, unmute me
17:56:15 <Zakim> m_schnei should no longer be muted
17:56:15 <ewallace> Need to advise users about this somewhere.
17:56:19 <Zhe> JeremyCarroll: for OWL2 FULL, complementOf should be on the data type.
17:56:28 <alanr> ack JeremyCarroll
17:56:35 <alanr> ack m_schnei
17:56:56 <m_schnei> zakim, mute me
17:56:56 <Zakim> m_schnei should now be muted
17:57:00 <alanr> ack uli
17:57:02 <uli> zakim, ack me
17:57:02 <Zakim> I see no one on the speaker queue
17:57:04 <Zhe> m_schnei. in owl full, if you take complement of xsd:integer, then you get owl:Thing minus xsd:integer
17:57:17 <bmotik> q+
17:57:23 <Zhe> uli: this piece of advice perhaps is too detailed for primer
17:57:39 <m_schnei> my example would be the same in OWL Full
17:57:40 <Zhe> ... should go somewhere indeed
17:57:43 <alanr> cookbook ;-)
17:57:48 <ivan> +1000 to Uli
17:58:00 <ivan> wiki
17:58:04 <alanr> q?
17:58:11 <alanr> ack bmotik
17:58:12 <uli> zakim, mute me
17:58:13 <Zakim> uli should now be muted
17:58:13 <JeremyCarroll> q+
17:58:25 <JeremyCarroll> _:x rdf:type rdfs:Datatype
17:58:25 <JeremyCarroll> _:x owl:complementOf T(DR)
17:58:30 <alanr> q+
17:58:45 <IanH> q?
17:58:50 <alanr> ack JeremyCarroll
17:59:25 <Zhe> Zhe has joined #owl
17:59:34 <Zhe> scribenick: Zhe
17:59:35 <IanH> q?
17:59:42 <IanH> q+
18:00:13 <IanH> q-
18:00:20 <alanr> q-
18:00:24 <JeremyCarroll> (I am leaving now ... bye)
18:00:25 <Zhe> alanr: time is past. let us continue on email
18:00:35 <ewallace> Bye JJC
18:00:35 <Zakim> -JeremyCarroll
18:00:50 <Zhe> Issue easy keys
18:01:20 <Zhe> alanr: just to check we are on the same page on easy keys
18:01:43 <Zhe> ... both easy keys/top bottom added to spec, with formal addition to language based on vote
18:01:59 <pfps> q+
18:02:09 <Zhe> ... can we do a straw poll
18:02:11 <alanr> ack pfps
18:02:28 <Zhe> pfps: don't think your description match minutes
18:03:25 <Zhe> pfps: the straw poll working in the minutes does not mention documentation change
18:03:28 <IanH> q?
18:03:29 <pfps> the straw poll in the minutes does not mention document changes at all
18:03:33 <IanH> q+
18:03:40 <alanr> ack ianH
18:03:42 <Zhe> s/working/wording/
18:03:44 <IanH> zakim, unmute me
18:03:44 <Zakim> IanH was not muted, IanH
18:03:45 <m_schnei> lets have to distinct polls
18:03:58 <Rinke> That's issue-112
18:03:58 <Zhe> IanH: one question on top/bottom, do we agree on the name?
18:04:00 <Zhe> not
18:04:02 <Zhe> alanr: not
18:04:06 <Rinke> (names, I mean)
18:04:24 <JeremyCarroll> JeremyCarroll has left #owl
18:04:26 <bmotik> +q
18:04:39 <alanr> ack bmotik
18:04:40 <Zhe> alanr: add them as top and bottom, 
18:04:46 <Zhe> ... and an editorial note
18:05:05 <Zhe> bmotik: implementing universal role is hard
18:05:16 <Zhe> ... not convinced it is "easy"
18:05:25 <Zhe> ... like to keep it separate from easy keys
18:05:31 <Zhe> alanr: where do we stand on easy keys?
18:05:34 <pfps> q+
18:05:46 <m_schnei> q+
18:05:49 <alanr> ack pfps
18:05:53 <Zhe> ... should we add easy key?
18:06:05 <Zhe> pfps: not aware of implementation of easy keys
18:06:16 <m_schnei> zakim, unmute me
18:06:16 <Zakim> m_schnei should no longer be muted
18:06:19 <ivan> q+
18:06:20 <alanr> ack m_schnei
18:06:57 <Zhe> m_schnei: missing major stakeholders, defer?
18:07:08 <pfps> so I feel that the documents should mention that easy keys may be yanked if implementations are not produced
18:07:15 <m_schnei> zakim, mute me
18:07:15 <Zakim> m_schnei should now be muted
18:07:18 <alanr> ack ivan
18:07:18 <bmotik> +q
18:07:21 <alanr> q?
18:07:23 <Zhe> alanr: my sense that majority of this WG are stakeholders and they are for it
18:07:41 <IanH> q?
18:07:43 <pfps> q+
18:07:48 <alanr> ack bmotik
18:08:20 <pfps> q-
18:08:30 <Zhe> bmotik: thinking about implementing easy keys. not trivial, should not be impossible
18:08:42 <Zhe> ... should have larger scale evaluation, 
18:09:05 <pfps> agree with Boris that implementation situation wrt easy keys is different from the vast bulk of OWL 2
18:09:11 <Zhe> alanr: we should have general discussion on these next week
18:09:21 <Zhe> issue 109: What is the namespace for elements and attributes in the XML serialization
18:09:36 <Zhe> alanr: 1) namespace itself
18:09:44 <Zhe> ... 2) should we reuse the same namespace
18:10:13 <IanH> Sorry, but I have to leave now.
18:10:19 <alanr> bye ian
18:10:27 <Zakim> -IanH
18:10:29 <Zhe> ivan: namespace in terms of XML, and namespace used in RDF/OWL are very different
18:10:33 <alanr> q?
18:10:34 <JeffP> bye Ian
18:10:36 <Zhe> ... in favor of two different namespaces
18:11:01 <Rinke> +1 to ivan
18:11:03 <Zhe> ... to avoid problems for OWL/XML
18:11:04 <bmotik> +1
18:11:12 <alanr> 1.   http://www.w3.org/ns/owl2-xml
18:11:12 <alanr> 2.   http://www.w3.org/ns/owl-xml
18:11:13 <alanr> 3.   http://www.w3.org/2008/owl-xml
18:11:13 <alanr> 4.   http://www.w3.org/2008/owl
18:11:17 <m_schnei> +1 to ivan: different things want different URIs
18:11:22 <pfps> I don't see any problems with sharing, but I really don't care
18:11:57 <Zhe> ivan: we decided to use owl namespace for the whole thing. so 1)  is ruled out
18:12:06 <Rinke> prefer 'xml' to be in there
18:12:07 <Zhe> ... don't care other three
18:12:12 <Zhe> alanr: suggest 3)
18:12:18 <uli> I guess Bijan has, but he isn't here today
18:12:25 <Zhe> ... year there give us possibltiy to evolve
18:12:39 <Rinke> but history shows that we don't evolve
18:12:43 <uli> q+
18:12:52 <uli> zakim, unmute me
18:12:52 <Zakim> uli should no longer be muted
18:12:59 <alanr> straw poll : how about http://www.w3.org/2008/owl-xml for the OWL-XML namespace
18:13:13 <Zhe> uli: just curious to hear what problems will come up if we only have one namespace
18:13:47 <Zhe> ivan: there are lots of discussion in XML world of what exactly the semantics of namespace is
18:13:47 <alanr> q?
18:13:51 <alanr> ack uli
18:13:59 <Rinke> sidenote: the owl namespace has a month in it as well
18:14:03 <Zhe> ... a word of caution is not to mix up things
18:14:21 <Zhe> uli: then it seems like something we should not decide. need more info
18:14:31 <uli> zakim, mute me
18:14:31 <Zakim> uli should now be muted
18:14:32 <Rinke> e.g. http://www.w3.org/2002/07/owl# and http://www.w3.org/2006/12/owl2-xml# currently in the syntax spec
18:14:42 <Zhe> ivan: why it is a big problem to separate the two?
18:16:14 <Rinke> Ivan is right wrt the hash mark
18:16:49 <Zhe> ivan: if we decide to have a different one. I don't care which
18:16:52 <m_schnei> people will click on the XML URI, and will expect to get to something related to the XML, not related to OWL in general
18:16:53 <alanr> straw poll : how about http://www.w3.org/2008/owl-xml for the OWL-XML namespace
18:16:55 <uli> I think Bijan could be one
18:17:02 <uli> ok ok 
18:17:13 <uli> 0
18:17:17 <alanr> 1
18:17:18 <Zhe> 0
18:17:20 <Achille> 0
18:17:21 <bmotik> 0
18:17:22 <m_schnei> +1 to have distinct URIs
18:17:23 <pfps> 0
18:17:24 <msmith> +1
18:17:26 <ivan> I have a slight preference for alt. 2
18:17:28 <JeffP> 0
18:17:30 <Rinke> +0.5 the separate namespace is fine, but I think Sandro 'd like a month in there
18:17:34 <Carsten> 0
18:17:46 <ewallace> +1 for URI 3 for now
18:18:37 <Zhe> alanr: issue 112 What name to give to Universal Property
18:18:50 <bmotik> q+
18:18:51 <uli> but this is related to the discussion before and thus deferred?
18:18:52 <Rinke> ... but what if we won't have a UP?
18:19:01 <Zhe> ... consensus: not trying meaningful name
18:19:10 <bmotik> q-
18:19:17 <m_schnei> zakim, unmute me
18:19:17 <Zakim> m_schnei should no longer be muted
18:19:19 <uli> ...108?
18:19:22 <Zhe> Issue 104  disallowed vocabulary OWL 1.1 DL does not have a disallowed vocabulary
18:19:33 <bmotik> q+
18:19:35 <Zhe> m_schnei: in old OWL SPEC, 
18:19:43 <Zhe> ... have disallowed vocabulary.
18:20:14 <Zhe> ... in the new RDF mapping, don't have something similar
18:20:42 <alanr> ack bmotik
18:20:43 <m_schnei> zakim, mute me
18:20:44 <Zakim> m_schnei should now be muted
18:20:48 <Zhe> ... e.g. having rdf:List is allowed in the new spec
18:20:54 <Zhe> ... but not in the old spec
18:21:40 <ivan> must not ...
18:21:45 <alanr> MUST NO
18:21:48 <alanr> MUST NOT
18:21:59 <m_schnei> q+
18:22:16 <ivan> q+
18:22:55 <m_schnei> zakim, unmute me
18:22:55 <Zakim> m_schnei should no longer be muted
18:22:56 <alanr> ack m_schnei
18:23:03 <Zhe> need scribe help, Boris
18:23:26 <Zhe> bmotik: don't think this belong to the mapping document.
18:23:34 <Zhe> ... in section 2.2.of FS
18:23:34 <m_schnei> zakim, mute me
18:23:34 <Zakim> m_schnei should now be muted
18:23:36 <alanr> ack ivan
18:24:16 <Zhe> ivan: boris, fully agree. OWL/XML namespace should not have any new terms. it is irrelevant
18:24:40 <Zhe> bmotik: it does have elements from OWL/XMl schema
18:25:00 <Zhe> ... will change it after tele conf
18:25:27 <alanr> q?
18:25:54 <Zhe> msmith: on tests
18:26:22 <Zhe> ... make progress next week (before next F2F)
18:26:37 <Zhe> ... willing to be aggregation point
18:26:51 <Zakim> -Evan_Wallace
18:26:52 <Zakim> -Peter_Patel-Schneider
18:26:52 <Zakim> -msmith
18:26:53 <Rinke> thanks
18:26:53 <JeffP> bye
18:26:54 <Zakim> -bmotik
18:26:54 <Rinke> bye
18:26:54 <m_schnei> bye
18:26:55 <Zakim> -JeffP
18:26:55 <uli> bye bye
18:26:57 <ivan> zakim, drop me
18:26:57 <Zakim> Ivan is being disconnected
18:26:59 <Zakim> -Carsten
18:26:59 <Zakim> -Ivan
18:26:59 <Zakim> -Achille
18:26:59 <uli> uli has left #owl
18:27:00 <Zakim> -Alan
18:27:03 <Zakim> -uli
18:27:04 <Zakim> -m_schnei
18:27:05 <ivan> ivan has left #owl
18:27:06 <Zakim> -Rinke
18:27:08 <Zakim> -Elisa_Kendall
18:27:10 <Zakim> -MartinD
18:27:23 <MartinD> MartinD has left #OWL
18:29:28 <Zakim> -Zhe
18:29:29 <Zakim> SW_OWL()12:00PM has ended
18:29:30 <Zakim> Attendees were bmotik, Elisa_Kendall, Ivan, JeremyCarroll, +31.20.525.aaaa, Rinke, IanH, Alan, +0190827aabb, Peter_Patel-Schneider, MartinD, Evan_Wallace, +1.202.408.aacc, msmith,
18:29:32 <Zakim> ... Zhe, m_schnei, uli, Achille, JeffP, Carsten
18:31:35 <msmith> msmith has left #owl
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20:43:52 <Zakim> Zakim has left #owl