15:56:58 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #css
15:56:58 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/05/28-css-irc
15:57:01 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #css
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15:57:07 <dbaron> RRSAgent, make logs public
15:57:09 <dbaron> Zakim, this will be style
15:57:09 <Zakim> ok, dbaron, I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM already started
15:57:15 <dbaron> Zakim, who is on the phone?
15:57:15 <Zakim> On the phone I see dsinger
15:57:21 <dsinger> that's me
15:57:22 <Zakim> + +1.760.741.aaaa
15:57:45 <plinss> zakim, +1.760.741 is plinss
15:57:45 <Zakim> +plinss; got it
15:58:36 <glazou> glazou has joined #css
15:59:15 <Zakim> +Daniel_Glazman
15:59:20 <dbaron> I may have to leave at the half hour today.
16:01:08 <Zakim> + +47.21.64.aabb
16:01:16 <Zakim> +David_Baron
16:01:52 <Zakim> + +95380aacc
16:02:06 <Bert> zakim, aacc is me
16:02:07 <Zakim> +Bert; got it
16:02:11 <Zakim> + +1.703.265.aadd
16:02:49 <Zakim> +??P42
16:03:33 <howcome> howcome has joined #css
16:03:42 <plinss> zakim, +1.703 is jason_cranfordtea
16:03:44 <Zakim> +jason_cranfordtea; got it
16:04:06 <plinss> zakim, +47 is howcome
16:04:06 <Zakim> +howcome; got it
16:04:33 <plinss> zakim, who is on the phone?
16:04:33 <Zakim> On the phone I see dsinger, plinss, Daniel_Glazman, howcome, David_Baron, Bert, jason_cranfordtea, ??P42
16:04:42 <myakura> myakura has joined #css
16:04:52 <alexmog> alexmog has joined #css
16:05:10 <dsinger> what IS a ??P42 number?
16:05:23 <Arron> I think that is Saloni
16:05:39 <Zakim> +fantasai
16:06:08 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
16:08:26 <glazou> uuuh ?
16:11:06 <alexmog> zakim, [Microsoft] is alex
16:11:06 <Zakim> +alex; got it
16:12:43 <fantasai> ScribeNick: fantasai
16:12:45 <fantasai> Topic: Charter
16:12:58 <fantasai> Peter: Sent out charter list yesterday.
16:13:16 <fantasai> Peter: Got some feedback on Generated Content, Marquee
16:13:35 <fantasai> Peter: Are there any modules people can't live without?
16:13:43 <fantasai> Jason: List coincides with AOL's direction
16:13:56 <fantasai> dbaron: A little upset that flexbox was dropped
16:14:09 <fantasai> dbaron: We have two prefixed implementations
16:14:14 <fantasai> dbaron: don't know if they are interoperable
16:15:19 <fantasai> Peter: I'm concerned that people don't think we will get anything to REC
16:15:35 <fantasai> fantasai: CSS Namespaces will go to REC. Selectors should be able to get there
16:15:39 <fantasai> dbaron: Color
16:15:43 <fantasai> howcome: Media Queries
16:16:01 <fantasai> dbaron: we have two implementations of that, soon to be three
16:17:47 <fantasai> Peter: CSS2.1?
16:19:13 <fantasai> fantasai: I wouldn't expect that. Good chance we won't make it to REC.
16:19:54 <fantasai> Jason: Requirements for PR?
16:20:15 <fantasai> fantasai: complete test suite, for each test 2 implementations that pass
16:20:24 <glazou> Zakim, who's noisy?
16:20:35 <Zakim> glazou, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: fantasai (79%), Daniel_Glazman (26%), Bert (32%)
16:22:29 <Bert> zakim, mute me
16:22:29 <Zakim> Bert should now be muted
16:22:49 <fantasai> fantasai: I think we'll have a better idea of where we are with the test suite at the end of this year
16:23:45 <fantasai> fantasai: not in time for the charter
16:23:56 <fantasai> peter: anything else?
16:24:13 <fantasai> dsinger: I need to consult with people here at Apple wrt animations and transitions 
16:24:18 <fantasai> and transformations
16:25:17 <fantasai> howcome: I think MultiCol is ready
16:26:33 <Bert> zakim, unmute me
16:26:33 <Zakim> Bert should no longer be muted
16:26:35 <fantasai> fantasai: It needs work. Some parts are underdefined. I have some comments on that, can help
16:26:52 <fantasai> fantasai: We should be able to get it to CR soon, though
16:26:59 <Zakim> -Bert
16:27:05 <fantasai> fantasai: And if we can get together resources for a test suite, to REC within 2 years
16:27:35 <fantasai> peter: Anything we can't get to CR?
16:27:42 <fantasai> fantasai: Text and Text Layout
16:28:27 <fantasai> fantasai: CR for those would be very ambitious... Paul and I don't have time to work on them this year
16:28:44 <dsinger> I keep wanting to know, for each module, who the primary proponent is, and who responded to the survey saying that they could put resources on it...is that list available?
16:30:11 <fantasai> peter: Paged Media?
16:30:15 <fantasai> fantasai: CR this year
16:30:22 <fantasai> fantasai: HP is working on a test suite, so shouldn't have a problem there
16:30:37 <fantasai> fantasai: Will need implementations. We should have implementations for all features soon
16:30:55 <fantasai> fantasai: but the older drafts had many things underspecified, and we fixed those up
16:31:01 <dbaron> I have a conflicting meeting now (hopefully only this week, although maybe next week too).  I'll still be on IRC.
16:31:06 <fantasai> fantasai: so defects would be what keeps us from REC there
16:31:11 <Zakim> -David_Baron
16:32:20 <fantasai> fantasai: I think it needed some edits, not much. Paul won't be able to work on it this year
16:32:42 <fantasai> fantasai: One of Mozilla's devs was interested in implementing. Not sure where it's going to go, though.
16:32:48 <fantasai> Peter: Stuck in CR then
16:32:54 <fantasai> Peter: GCPM?
16:33:04 <fantasai> howcome: I think it's useful spec, 
16:33:06 <fantasai> ...
16:33:09 <fantasai> Peter: Fonts?
16:33:20 <fantasai> Jason: Good progress there. I think we can get to CR pretty quickly.
16:33:34 <fantasai> Jason: Our only concern is the nature of downloadable fonts.
16:33:47 <fantasai> Jason: I don't think we're proposing anything else that is controversial
16:33:58 <fantasai> howcome: You're putting Web Fonts back in the Fonts specification?
16:34:04 <fantasai> Jason: Yes.
16:34:33 <fantasai> howcome: The subset that's implemented or everything?
16:34:36 <fantasai> Jason: everything
16:35:06 <fantasai> Daniel: From discussion with Chris Lilley, most font descriptors were unimplemented.. panose, etc.
16:35:29 <fantasai> Daniel: So only a subset, not everything, should be in the spec
16:36:00 <fantasai> Daniel: Fonts spec will be edited by Chris Lilley, Jason, and John Daggett
16:36:11 <fantasai> Daniel: Small overhead in getting both WG to agree on publication
16:36:28 <fantasai> Jason: John and I would be willing to split them back out if merging leads to a roadblock
16:36:36 <fantasai> Jason: I think font properties should be good to go
16:37:24 <fantasai> Jason: Some issues came up in the design community about being able to suppress synthesized fonts
16:38:30 <fantasai> Jason: And being able to style different fonts differently
16:38:59 <fantasai> fantasai: You can use multiple fonts in the same elements because of what glyphs are available. That means you'd style individual glyphs differently
16:39:13 <fantasai> Peter cuts off technical conversation and redirects to charter
16:39:18 <fantasai> Peter: Expect CR?
16:39:18 <dsinger> this seems very detailed here, but I am not sure I agree with the question.  it falsl into the case "doctor, it hurts when I do this" and the reply "don't do that, then" seems appealing
16:39:23 <fantasai> Jason: Yes
16:39:39 <fantasai> Peter: REC?
16:39:43 <fantasai> Jason: don't know
16:40:26 <dbaron> ok, my 9:30 was thankfully quite short... calling back in now.
16:40:27 <Zakim> +Bert
16:40:32 <fantasai> Peter: Template Layout?
16:40:34 <Zakim> +David_Baron
16:41:00 <fantasai> fantasai: I think CR might be possible, not sure about implementations.. but there remains a lot of work to be done in that spec
16:41:09 <fantasai> Bert: I think we can get to CR
16:41:16 <fantasai> Bert: But I haven't heard anybody talk about implementations
16:41:30 <fantasai> Peter: Tables?
16:42:51 <dsinger> dbaron: your (?) question where there was a mix of fonts with different intrinsic styles in a fallback list.  but it can wait.
16:43:06 <dbaron> dsinger, I wasn't on the phone then, so it wasn't my question...
16:43:30 <fantasai> fantasai: MS is not likely to have much time to work on it until after IE8 releases. They usually spend time on specs right after the release
16:43:36 <fantasai> dbaron: I'm also interested in Tables. 
16:43:46 <fantasai> dbaron: We'd probably want test suite drafts along with working drafts
16:44:08 <fantasai> dbaron: since it's not about features as about refining definitions
16:44:24 <fantasai> Peter: CSS Variables
16:44:32 <fantasai> Daniel: I think we should be able to get this to REC
16:44:45 <dsinger> safari and who else has this in implementation?
16:45:05 <fantasai> s/REC/CR/
16:45:05 <dbaron> Bert, all that work on the old size algorithm was really only a small part of it...
16:45:16 <fantasai> Daniel: It does not seem to be that complex
16:45:17 <Zakim> -Daniel_Glazman
16:45:34 <fantasai> Peter: Box Model
16:45:42 <fantasai> Bert: Box Model needs implementations
16:45:47 <fantasai> Bert: of vertical layout
16:46:04 <fantasai> Bert: It's the same as CSS2.1 for horizontal
16:46:26 <fantasai> Bert: So maybe CR
16:46:51 <fantasai> Peter: Extended Box Model
16:46:53 <fantasai> Bert: WD at most
16:46:58 <fantasai> Peter: CSSOM View
16:47:12 <fantasai> fantasai: Need to ask Anne. I would guess REC, but should ask him.
16:47:16 <fantasai> Peter: Values and Units
16:47:25 <fantasai> howcome: Kinda sitting there
16:47:36 <fantasai> dbaron: We agreed to add cycle(), and it's not there.
16:47:46 <fantasai> dbaron: But I really do want to move this forward
16:48:24 <fantasai> dbaron: I would hope that we'd have an implementation within 2 years. Maybe not all of it. But there are a bunch of features that I do want to implement.
16:48:34 <fantasai> Peter: So commitment to CR
16:48:51 <fantasai> Peter: Grid Positioning?
16:49:02 <fantasai> fantasai: I suspect WD
16:49:35 <fantasai> Alex: I would hope for CR.
16:49:44 <fantasai> Peter: Lists?
16:49:55 <Arron> Probably WD
16:50:31 <Arron> maybe CR if the tests suite is done early
16:50:35 <fantasai> Peter: Generated Content?
16:50:37 <fantasai> fantasai: CR
16:50:55 <fantasai> Peter: Cascading and Inheritance
16:51:15 <fantasai> howcome: not much changes there. Can probably go to CR
16:51:26 <fantasai> dbaron: Anything new beyond 2.1?
16:51:31 <fantasai> howcome: I don't think so
16:51:39 <fantasai> dbaron: If there's nothing new, why bother?
16:52:17 <fantasai> Peter: If there's nothing beyond 2.1, why do we add this?
16:52:27 <Arron> Specificity had to change for CSS 3 selectors didn't it?
16:52:33 <Zakim> + +1.408.881.aaee
16:52:45 <fantasai> Arron, specificity is defined in Selectors
16:52:58 <fantasai> dbaron: Can point to 2.1
16:53:03 <fantasai> s/dbaron/fantasai/
16:53:43 <fantasai> fantasai: if it's needed for references
16:53:55 <fantasai> Peter proposes to drop from list
16:54:06 <fantasai> That seems to be ok
16:54:23 <fantasai> Peter: Marquee?
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16:54:32 <dbaron> Zakim, +1.408.881.aaee is Dean_Jackson
16:54:32 <Zakim> +Dean_Jackson; got it
16:54:49 <fantasai> Bert: We need to finish that one
16:54:55 <fantasai> Bert: We have to do that for the mobile profile
16:55:04 <fantasai> Bert: CR certainly. REC, I'm not sure
16:55:15 <fantasai> Bert: There are implementations in Mobile, not sure how good they are
16:56:48 <fantasai> fantasai: I'd aim for CR. Dependency on 2.1 can hold that back
16:56:55 <fantasai> Peter: FlexBox?
16:57:03 <fantasai> dbaron: I'd like to at least get working drafts out
16:57:09 <fantasai> dbaron: CR would be nice, but I'd say working drafts
16:57:46 <fantasai> Peter: Ok, I will go through list and come up with a new list that reflects what we think we can deliver
16:58:33 <fantasai> Dean Jackson: I think we can get Animations and Transitions to CR.
16:58:42 <dino> and Transforms
16:58:46 <plinss> http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Tracker/actions/44
16:59:53 <fantasai> dbaron: I think in some cases we might have said that if we want to count 2 implementations they have to pass the same test.. if we're going through the "equivalent test" route
17:00:19 <fantasai> ... where the implementations are passing two different versions of the same test
17:01:14 <fantasai> dbaron: If we don't require that, then we need to review the equivalent tests very carefully
17:02:06 <Zakim> -plinss
17:02:32 <fantasai> RESOLVED: adopt proposed wording for CR exit criteria
17:02:39 <dbaron> (assuming peter was in favor)
17:02:55 <Zakim> -dino
17:02:56 <Zakim> -howcome
17:02:56 <Zakim> -??P42
17:02:56 <Zakim> -jason_cranfordtea
17:03:00 <dsinger> bye, thx, see you in late june
17:03:00 <Zakim> -alex
17:03:01 <Zakim> -David_Baron
17:03:02 <Zakim> -fantasai
17:03:06 <Zakim> -dsinger
17:03:08 <Zakim> -Bert
17:03:09 <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
17:03:10 <Zakim> Attendees were dsinger, +1.760.741.aaaa, plinss, Daniel_Glazman, +47.21.64.aabb, David_Baron, +95380aacc, Bert, +1.703.265.aadd, jason_cranfordtea, howcome, fantasai, alex, dino
17:04:00 <dbaron> Zakim, bye
17:04:00 <Zakim> Zakim has left #css
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17:08:43 <plinss> Sorry, had a power failure here. Too many CPUs, not enough UPSes...
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17:35:35 <fantasai> RRSAgent: make logs public
17:35:38 <fantasai> RRSAgent: make minutes
17:35:38 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/05/28-css-minutes.html fantasai
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19:33:59 <anne> great, got my redirect :)
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22:28:34 <anne> Bert, the specgen doesn't support WG-NOTE
22:29:11 <anne> Bert, it has some weird requirements, WG-NOTE is the style sheet, NOTE is the this version URI, and "Working Group Note" is the text for <h2>
23:58:41 <Bert> Anne, it might work now.
23:59:15 <Bert> (And if not, sorry, you'll have to edit by hand for a few weeks...)