IRC log of svg on 2008-05-20

Timestamps are in UTC.

08:11:10 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #svg
08:11:10 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/05/20-svg-irc
08:11:12 [trackbot-ng]
RRSAgent, make logs public
08:11:12 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #svg
08:11:14 [trackbot-ng]
Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG
08:11:14 [Zakim]
I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot-ng
08:11:15 [trackbot-ng]
Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference
08:11:15 [trackbot-ng]
Date: 20 May 2008
08:11:24 [ChrisL]
zakim, remind me in 8 hours to go home
08:11:24 [Zakim]
ok, ChrisL
08:11:35 [ChrisL]
topic: Adobe, SVG and eBooks
08:11:37 [ChrisL]
http://www.openebook.org/oebps/oebps1.2/download/oeb12-xhtml.htm
08:13:41 [ChrisL]
http://www.openebook.org/oebps/oebps1.2/download/oeb12-xhtml.htm .
08:14:09 [ChrisL]
http://markmail.org/message/mxcmubdgh7xzkccb
08:15:09 [ChrisL]
Present: Leonard Rosenthal (Adobe), Doug, Erik, Andrew, Anthony, Tony, Chris
08:19:00 [ed]
http://www.idpf.org/2007/ops/OPS_2.0_final_spec.html
08:19:39 [ed]
"OPS Reading Systems must support SVG (Scalable Vector Graphics) as an OPS Core Media Type."
08:47:36 [ChrisL]
trackbot-ng, status
08:47:43 [ChrisL]
trackbot-ng, action-1?
08:47:54 [ChrisL]
trackbot-ng, action-1
08:48:37 [ChrisL]
Topic: 1.2T test suite sprint
09:12:30 [leonardr]
leonardr has joined #svg
09:49:13 [aemmons]
aemmons has joined #svg
09:58:00 [ed]
http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/a-call-for-video-on-the-web-opera-vid/
11:39:22 [ed]
ed has joined #svg
11:40:06 [zlatinski]
zlatinski has joined #svg
11:41:11 [aemmons]
aemmons has joined #svg
11:47:09 [leonardr]
leonardr has joined #svg
11:53:54 [ChrisL]
ChrisL has joined #svg
11:54:05 [anthony]
scribe: anthony
11:54:17 [shepazu]
shepazu has joined #svg
11:54:19 [anthony]
Chair: Andrew Emmons
11:54:34 [anthony]
Topic: Circular references in use
11:55:11 [ChrisL]
ChrisL has changed the topic to: Sunny Vacations Goers
11:58:40 [leonardr]
leonardr has joined #svg
11:59:59 [shepazu]
<svg xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg">
11:59:59 [shepazu]
<g id="group-1">
11:59:59 [shepazu]
<circle cx='25' cy='25' r='20' fill='red' />
12:00:00 [shepazu]
<use xlink:href="#group-2" />
12:00:00 [shepazu]
</g>
12:00:00 [shepazu]
<g id="group-2">
12:00:02 [shepazu]
<circle cx='75' cy='25' r='20' fill='green' />
12:00:04 [shepazu]
<use xlink:href="#group-1" />
12:00:06 [shepazu]
</g>
12:00:08 [shepazu]
<rect x='5' y='55' width='40' height='40' fill='blue' />
12:00:10 [shepazu]
</svg>
12:00:15 [anthony]
DS: prepared a test case
12:00:30 [anthony]
... [Describes test case]
12:00:40 [anthony]
... clearly a circular reference
12:00:48 [anthony]
... do we want this to be an error?
12:00:59 [anthony]
... or do we want this to be invalid content...
12:01:16 [anthony]
ED: invalid IRI is what I was thinking
12:02:05 [anthony]
... currently says in the linking table that it's an error
12:02:18 [anthony]
AE: You can still proceed with rendering the rect?
12:02:32 [anthony]
DS: No it's sufficiently unclear
12:02:45 [anthony]
AE: We have test already with transparency
12:02:56 [ed]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/spec/mobile/1.2/1.2NG/publish/linking.html#ReferenceRestrictions
12:03:23 [anthony]
... and the different levels of transparency indicate how many times you've gone through
12:03:35 [anthony]
DS: What happens when we encounter this case?
12:03:46 [anthony]
... there are three interpretations for this
12:05:11 [anthony]
LR: The certain graphic operations where you can encounter an error
12:05:32 [anthony]
... this operation shouldn't affect other operations
12:06:08 [anthony]
DS: So this would happen with incorrect attribute values
12:06:51 [anthony]
... in 1.1 we would've said stop rendering if you find an error
12:07:24 [anthony]
... in 1.2 if you find an error in the value you continue on
12:07:46 [anthony]
TZ: Do you display the error on the screen?
12:08:04 [aemmons]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/spec/mobile/1.2/1.2NG/publish/implnote.html#ErrorProcessing
12:08:58 [anthony]
AE: I think the error processing model we have we should be rendering the document
12:09:19 [anthony]
ED: So the IRI has some specific handling?
12:12:43 [anthony]
TZ: If you were to serialise the DOM back do you get the same DOM?
12:14:32 [anthony]
... if you have DOM element already created how do you know it's an error?
12:15:01 [anthony]
... have to have a way to show the user that it's an error
12:15:21 [anthony]
DS: We can provide an indication of an error
12:16:47 [anthony]
... [Gives an example of authoring tool and viewer errors displayed]
12:17:23 [anthony]
... How debugging is handled doesn't effect the user experience
12:17:39 [anthony]
... it doesn't affect how the user views it
12:18:37 [anthony]
LR: Pose this from a different stand point. There is no way to put in a script that would validates onload
12:18:45 [anthony]
... this is something that author would want
12:19:22 [anthony]
DS: That is something would belong in the Window interface
12:19:37 [anthony]
AE: JSR226 has very strict error handling
12:19:58 [anthony]
... I can see the point that you load this content and there is an exception
12:20:09 [anthony]
... it would be useful to know which element
12:20:33 [anthony]
... but I'm hesitant because it increases the footprint
12:20:46 [anthony]
LR: That couldn't be embedded in the SVG?
12:20:53 [anthony]
DS: It would be in a script
12:21:11 [anthony]
... and done in the Window interface
12:21:53 [anthony]
TZ: If I was just to hand write content and put it in Opera
12:22:07 [anthony]
... I would hate for errors to be ignored
12:22:20 [anthony]
... when developing the content
12:22:45 [anthony]
ED: There is an error console and a debugging tool
12:23:50 [anthony]
DS: What if we said in C2 and C3 a UA that encounters unsupported content or an error should provide an indication to authors what the error was
12:24:21 [anthony]
... you may not want for security reasons the users to get at your files in non-debugging cases
12:24:44 [anthony]
TZ: There is no access to the DOM
12:24:56 [anthony]
AE: A way forward would be the Window interface
12:25:03 [anthony]
DS: Should apply to all HTML etc
12:28:58 [anthony]
ACTION: Doug to adding wording about a UA providing where the error is and a reason for the error in a debugging environment
12:28:59 [trackbot-ng]
Created ACTION-2022 - Adding wording about a UA providing where the error is and a reason for the error in a debugging environment [on Doug Schepers - due 2008-05-27].
12:29:12 [anthony]
AE: So about the linking
12:29:29 [anthony]
... It should an unsupported attribute value
12:30:25 [ed]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/spec/mobile/1.2/1.2NG/publish/struct.html#UseElement
12:30:36 [anthony]
ED: [Reads out use element]
12:30:53 [anthony]
DS: Those should be reversed
12:31:05 [anthony]
CL: Would make more sense to word it that way
12:31:49 [anthony]
DS: We should say circular refs and other things the first circular ref will be treated as if it were an unsupported value
12:31:59 [anthony]
CL: Don't want to say it becomes
12:32:04 [anthony]
... want to say it's treated as
12:32:23 [anthony]
AE: Need clarification about as soon it is detected
12:32:46 [anthony]
DS: We should say something about Lacuna values
12:32:55 [anthony]
... is that what we want to happen?
12:33:12 [anthony]
... if there is an unsupported attribute value?
12:33:20 [anthony]
.... I was going to put that in C2
12:33:44 [anthony]
... by putting it in here we cover everything
12:33:56 [anthony]
AE: There may be some specifics for use
12:35:32 [aemmons]
ACTION: Doug to modify linking reference regarding circular reference. When a circular reference is detected it will be treated as an unsupported attribute value
12:35:32 [trackbot-ng]
Created ACTION-2023 - Modify linking reference regarding circular reference. When a circular reference is detected it will be treated as an unsupported attribute value [on Doug Schepers - due 2008-05-27].
12:38:12 [aemmons]
ACTION, Doug to update C.2, point 2, that since it's 'as if the value has not been specified', that it will be as if the lacuna value was used
12:38:52 [ChrisL]
since we already say in the spec that an invalid value is treated as if not specified
12:39:11 [ChrisL]
... and thus, we can state that it renders as if the value was not specified
12:39:21 [ChrisL]
... which is the same as the lacuna value
12:39:56 [ChrisL]
.. and also makes it clearf that the dom does not change (the invalid value is still in the dom)
12:40:06 [anthony]
DS: If you look at my original example you see that I'm referencing a group
12:40:45 [anthony]
... at what point does it detect there is a circular reference?
12:40:56 [anthony]
CL: Need to be careful there
12:41:29 [anthony]
... depends on how linking is done
12:42:43 [anthony]
DS: We just agreed that circular references are not allowed
12:42:55 [anthony]
AE: At the first point of detection
12:43:10 [anthony]
... but the first point of detection is implementation specific
12:44:03 [anthony]
DS: We should either say something about it or we shouldn't
12:44:09 [anthony]
AE: We do say something
12:44:52 [anthony]
... we don't allow circular references and you should stop at the first point of detection
12:45:29 [anthony]
DS: In my example the use references group 2
12:46:06 [anthony]
... it doesn't render the use of group 2 but does the use of group 1 include the green circle?
12:46:10 [anthony]
AE: I'd say yes
12:46:29 [anthony]
DS: That's not what we say
12:46:46 [anthony]
ED: I think for use we would detect it when we get to group 2 the 2nd time
12:47:10 [anthony]
DS: The action is it doesn't render the action itself is we say an unsupported value
12:47:44 [anthony]
CL: There is no interoperable rendering of that
12:48:04 [anthony]
... you could go through and figure out that you had circular references
12:48:26 [anthony]
AE: I don't think you can get interoperability on this
12:48:46 [anthony]
CL: This is known to cause issues don't do it
12:48:56 [anthony]
AE: So do you test for this?
12:50:06 [anthony]
CL: We should say if you are putting this in then you'll get varying output
12:50:43 [anthony]
... I propose that we put something in
12:50:52 [anthony]
... in D.3.1
12:52:04 [ChrisL]
Put it in D.3.1 Conforming SVG Document Fragments so that content with circular references is not conformant
12:52:38 [ChrisL]
That makes it clear not to rely on particular rendering of it, sinjce the point at which circularity is detected can vary
12:54:04 [anthony]
ACTION: doug to add wording to the specification that content with circular references is not conformant
12:54:04 [trackbot-ng]
Created ACTION-2024 - Add wording to the specification that content with circular references is not conformant [on Doug Schepers - due 2008-05-27].
12:55:19 [anthony]
TZ: Coming from industry I don't think this is a robust way to deal with this
12:56:01 [anthony]
ED: We could put something in the appendix for editors to give a warning
12:57:27 [anthony]
TZ: To me it is more logical to set something to (flag) say it is an error
12:58:16 [anthony]
DS: The wording already provides a way to meet your requirements
15:05:03 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #svg
15:05:03 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/05/20-svg-irc
15:28:13 [ChrisL]
http://www.adobe.com/products/digitaleditions/
15:47:35 [ChrisL]
http://www.balisage.net/Versioning/index.html
15:51:47 [shepazu]
zakim, bye
15:51:47 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #svg
15:51:56 [shepazu]
rssagent, make minutes
16:11:24 [Zakim]
ChrisL, you asked to be reminded at this time to go home
17:09:45 [zlatinski]
zlatinski has joined #svg