13:45:13 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #backplane
13:45:13 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/05/16-backplane-irc
13:45:23 <Charlie> rrsagent, make log public
13:45:42 <Charlie> Meeting: Backplane XG Teleconference
13:46:03 <Charlie> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-app-backplane/2008May/0000.html
13:46:26 <Charlie> Chair: Charlie Wiecha
13:47:27 <Charlie> Regrets: Joaquin Salvachua
13:53:12 <Zakim> INC_RWAB()10:00AM has now started
13:53:19 <Zakim> +[IBM]
13:53:26 <Charlie> zakim, [IBM] is Charlie
13:53:26 <Zakim> +Charlie; got it
13:56:49 <Steven> Steven has joined #backplane
13:56:57 <Steven> hail
13:57:19 <Steven> need help setting up,or are you good to go?
13:58:26 <Charlie> hi steven!  i think we're all set
13:58:40 <Charlie> just need a script ... hint hint
13:58:42 <Charlie> scribe
13:58:52 <Charlie> for today 
13:59:09 <Steven> I would voluntgeer to scribe, but there is a national ADSL breakdown, so I will be using my cell phone for both IP and voice; 
13:59:24 <Charlie> oh well...i thought that might still be the case
13:59:27 <Steven> my experiences with being able to hear this week have been bad
13:59:34 <Charlie> yup
13:59:36 <Steven> SOrry about that
13:59:39 <Charlie> np
13:59:41 <Charlie> next time!
14:01:08 <Steven> sure
14:01:13 <Steven> just coming
14:01:16 <Steven> zakim, code?
14:01:16 <Zakim> the conference code is 7922 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), Steven
14:03:32 <Steven> zakim, who is here?
14:03:32 <Zakim> On the phone I see Charlie
14:03:33 <Zakim> On IRC I see Steven, RRSAgent, Zakim, Charlie
14:03:40 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-mobile
14:03:40 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made
14:03:42 <Zakim> +Steven
14:03:47 <Charlie> k
14:04:49 <Zakim> -Steven
14:05:39 <Zakim> +John_Boyer
14:06:00 <Zakim> +Steven
14:06:28 <John_Boyer> John_Boyer has joined #backplane
14:09:23 <Steven> Scribe: Steven
14:09:39 <Steven> Topic: Overview
14:10:21 <Steven> Charlie: So there are a number of people due today, but I haven't heard from any except from the person from Spain
14:10:33 <Charlie> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-app-backplane/2008May/0000.html
14:10:37 <Steven> ... do you know if Jack is coming?
14:10:45 <Steven> Steven: No idea; I haven't seen him this week
14:11:06 <Steven> Steven: Is Mark coming?
14:11:17 <Steven> Charlie: He hasn't joined yet
14:11:46 <Steven> Steven: Well he spun off a new company called WebBackplane, so I guess he's interested?
14:12:28 <Steven> John: [explains the background to Mark's compnay]
14:12:39 <Steven> John: He is travelling to San Jose at the moment
14:12:54 <Steven> s/compnay/company/
14:13:45 <Steven> Charlie: I pinged Scott McGlashan of Voice asking if he couldn't come to send someone else from voice
14:13:56 <Steven> ... but I didn't get a reply in the time
14:14:02 <Steven> ... so here are three of us in any case
14:14:39 <Steven> ... the agenda lists the topics and some documents
14:14:58 <Steven> [1] Panel at the 2006 Tech Plenary: 
14:14:58 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/2006/03/01-TechPlenAgenda.html 
14:14:58 <Steven> [2] W3C Note on the Backplane: http://www.w3.org/TR/backplane/ 
14:14:58 <Steven> [3] Amsterdam meeting minutes: 
14:14:58 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/CoordGroup/2006/backplane-meeting.html 
14:15:00 <Steven> [4] Amsterdam meeting report: 
14:15:02 <Steven> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2007Jan/0035.html 
14:15:04 <Steven> [5] Backplane XG Charter: 
14:15:06 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/app-backplane/charter-20080409.html
14:15:55 <Steven> Charlie: Looking at the minutes from the meeting, I think the eventing issue is really the place to start
14:16:01 <Steven> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2007Jan/0035.html
14:17:11 <Steven> Charlie: data and controls should be signalling what they are doing
14:17:38 <Steven> ... and if we can set expectations about when that happens, then it can make composition more transparent
14:18:13 <Steven> John: When we first presented the backplane, I said that XML events is the nexus of interoperability
14:18:14 <Steven> ... so I agree
14:18:28 <Steven> ... but I haven't developed that since then
14:18:56 <Steven> ... but I do now have experience with using XML Events for combining stuff (such as XML Signature)
14:20:34 <Steven> Charlie: I have a tax application that links in to the MVC structure using events without destroying the prinicple
14:20:56 <Steven> John: THe new upcoming draft of XML Events makes it easier too, since it has conditional execution
14:21:00 <Steven> s/TH/Th/
14:21:12 <Steven> s/icple/ciple/
14:21:44 <Steven> Charlie: What this XG can do is promote some patterns around notification events
14:22:18 <Steven> ... existing mashups in Javascript does not make the model transparent
14:22:28 <Steven> s/does/do/
14:22:57 <Steven> John: More value for event context could come from handlers with named parameters
14:23:02 <Steven> q+
14:23:26 <Charlie> q+
14:24:50 <John_Boyer> For example, this way a module could indicate whether it had take some action related to the event, which other modules could use as the event bubbles up.
14:25:03 <Steven> Steven: One thing I would like to see is that we find a unified treatment of what in XForms is called relevance
14:25:22 <Steven> ... where parts of the tree become irrelevant to events, and so must not be used for setting off handlers
14:25:37 <Steven> ... several of our greoups have such a need, and everyone does it differently
14:25:45 <Steven> q-
14:25:48 <Steven> ach ch
14:25:56 <Steven> ack ch
14:26:47 <Steven> Charlie: ANother apparent point of disagreement but is a point of alignment is that subsetting of events is OK
14:26:49 <Steven> a/AN/An/
14:26:59 <Steven> s/AN/An/
14:27:08 <Charlie> q-
14:27:22 <John_Boyer> q+ to comment on orthogonality of relevance and conditionality
14:27:31 <Steven> Charlie: About adding value up and down the bubble capture
14:27:43 <John_Boyer> q+ to comment on event profiling e.g. to target only
14:28:06 <John_Boyer> q+ to comment on importance of event bubbling on module interop
14:28:16 <Steven> ... can we recast aspect-oriented programming into an event-based model?
14:28:44 <Steven> ack J
14:28:44 <Zakim> John_Boyer, you wanted to comment on orthogonality of relevance and conditionality and to comment on event profiling e.g. to target only and to comment on importance of event
14:28:48 <Zakim> ... bubbling on module interop
14:29:11 <Steven> John: On the bubbling part, I agree
14:29:31 <Steven> ... it is the capture and bubble phase that makes eventing a good way to get modules to talk to each other
14:29:45 <Steven> ... for instance I have been doing stuff with ODF + XForms 1.1
14:30:01 <Steven> ... ODF can listen for the bubbling of an XForms serialise event,
14:30:09 <Steven> ... and look at the target
14:30:30 <Steven> ... and then examine the submission element to look for ODF serialization mime types
14:30:52 <Steven> ... XFOrms by iteself could not have specified that
14:31:07 <Steven> ... because different host languages would be different
14:31:15 <Steven> s/FO/Fo/
14:31:28 <Steven> John: About profiling XML Events
14:32:01 <Steven> ... there are some who want to do something similar, but for instance only process at the target
14:32:31 <Steven> ... if you look at XForms 1.1 conformance, we say you MUST implement ev;target, but allow profiling too
14:32:39 <Steven> s/;/:/
14:32:56 <Steven> John: A host language may not want to implement everything
14:33:06 <Steven> John: Now that is a mixed message that I have just given
14:33:17 <Steven> ... but I think we need to strike a balance
14:33:55 <Steven> John: Back to Steven's point about relevance
14:34:24 <Steven> ... this notion is orhtogonal to merely being able to create new handlers
14:36:24 <Steven> Steven: XForms relevance and SMIL timing both have the same effect, to remove a bit of the tree from processing for the time being (albeit different reasons)
14:36:30 <Steven> ... but the concept is the same
14:37:30 <Steven> John: You are saying that as a cross-cutting concern, rather than using if statements to exclude bits of the tree, you can use some declarative conditional to exclude it
14:37:46 <Steven> s/exclude it/exclude them/
14:38:12 <Steven> John: There are some things that are so hard to say in programmingm, that aspect style is the only way to do it
14:38:19 <Steven> s/gm/g/
14:39:37 <Steven> Steven: I think the problem is that DOM Events was designed based on HTML which doesn't have relevance (as we call it)
14:40:03 <Steven> ... but then along came several specs that discovered the concept independently, and what  we need to do is fold it back into the centre
14:40:17 <Steven> John: In a modularised way so that we can do this incrementally
14:41:02 <Steven> Charlie: And I think we need to identify some event types that all applications should be able to expect
14:41:20 <Steven> Steven: I agree, such as load
14:41:38 <Steven> ... so that an app knows when everything is the combination
14:41:53 <Steven> ... and submission is another one, such as John's case above
14:42:36 <Steven> ... so that each applicatiohn subpart doesn't need to event these events themselves
14:42:39 <Steven> s/hn/n/
14:43:11 <Steven> John: We have a techplen coming up, and they always ask for talks
14:43:38 <Steven> Charlie: Well, we need a definitive report on needs for this area
14:44:15 <Steven> John: We should be doing the requirements work, not necessarily the technical work
14:44:38 <Steven> Steven: An XG is only for the groundwork, not the technical work
14:45:02 <Steven> Topic: How Further?
14:45:58 <Steven> Charlie: Maybe I should ping people by private email
14:46:18 <Steven> Steven: I haven't got into the habit of checking this list yet, so tha' would be a good idea
14:46:30 <Steven> s/tha /that /
14:46:43 <Steven> John: I didn't get any list mail yet
14:47:31 <Steven> Charlie: Can I check the list membership?
14:47:49 <Steven> http://cgi.w3.org/member-bin/list_mgnt.pl
14:49:44 <Steven> Steven: Only 4 on our list
14:50:03 <Steven> Charlie: So that's the problem
14:51:41 <Steven> Steven: I should point out htat I am here purely in CWI mode, since XG's do not have any staff resources
14:51:49 <Steven> s/htat/that/
14:57:00 <Steven> Charlie: So let's update the list now
14:57:25 <John_Boyer> http://www.w3.org/2000/09/dbwg/details?group=42340
14:57:43 <John_Boyer> Participants link in this: http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/app-backplane/
14:58:51 <Steven> Charlie: Shall we do the next meeting in 2 weeks?
14:59:03 <Steven> ... but do we in general want to do weekly or bi-weekly
14:59:11 <Steven> ... ?
14:59:50 <Steven> John: So which day would we do it?
14:59:59 <Steven> Steven: I only have Monday at this time
15:00:16 <Steven> John: Groan, Monday early in the morning...
15:00:31 <Steven> Charlie: Two weeks from today, and we'll talk more
15:00:38 <Steven> ... thanks for turning up, and talk to you soon.
15:00:43 <Zakim> -John_Boyer
15:00:44 <Zakim> -Charlie
15:00:47 <Steven> [ADJOURN]
15:00:48 <Zakim> -Steven
15:00:49 <Zakim> INC_RWAB()10:00AM has ended
15:00:50 <Zakim> Attendees were Charlie, Steven, John_Boyer
15:00:57 <John_Boyer> John_Boyer has left #backplane
15:01:03 <Steven> rrsagent, make log public
15:01:09 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
15:01:09 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/05/16-backplane-minutes.html Steven
15:01:21 <Charlie> thanks, was just going to do that
15:02:44 <Steven> i/Charlie: Looking at the minutes/Topic: Events
15:02:50 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
15:02:50 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/05/16-backplane-minutes.html Steven
15:04:35 <Steven> s/tha'/that/
15:04:39 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
15:04:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/05/16-backplane-minutes.html Steven
15:05:06 <Steven> s/ANother/Another/
15:05:11 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
15:05:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/05/16-backplane-minutes.html Steven
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