14:53:52 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdfa
14:53:52 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/05/15-rdfa-irc
14:54:05 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #rdfa
14:54:15 <msporny> zakim, this will be SW_SWD(RDFa)
14:54:15 <Zakim> ok, msporny; I see SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM scheduled to start in 6 minutes
14:54:48 <msporny> Meeting: RDF-in-XHTML Task Force
14:55:06 <msporny> previous, http://www.w3.org/2008/05/08-rdfa-minutes.html
14:55:29 <msporny> Chair: Manu
14:55:43 <msporny> rrsagent, make log public
14:55:52 <msporny> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:55:52 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/05/15-rdfa-minutes.html msporny
14:56:24 <ShaneM> I think we are going to be a little light on attendes today
14:56:39 <msporny> yeah...
14:56:45 <msporny> do you know if Ralph is gonna be here?
14:57:02 <msporny> 3 people would be enough to get through Test Cases.
14:57:49 <Ralph> Ralph has joined #rdfa
14:57:55 <msporny> yaaay, Ralph!
14:58:09 <Ralph> ??
14:58:18 <msporny> Just happy to see you, Ralph :)
14:58:21 <Zakim> SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has now started
14:58:28 <Zakim> +Ralph
14:58:28 <Ralph> ah :)  well, thanks
14:58:39 <Ralph> happy to be here
14:59:17 <Zakim> +??P1
14:59:21 <msporny> zakim, I am ??P1
14:59:21 <Zakim> +msporny; got it
14:59:28 <Steven> Hi gang.
14:59:48 <msporny> zakim, who's on the call?
14:59:48 <Zakim> On the phone I see Ralph, msporny
14:59:51 <Ralph> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008May/0116.html
15:00:04 <Steven> There is a national ADSL breakdown here (3 days long alread), so the only internet connection I have is via the same mobile phone I will be phoning in on
15:00:14 <Steven> so expect poor sound
15:00:37 <msporny> no chance you're going to be able to see Test Cases to review them, then, Steven?
15:00:51 <Steven> I'll try
15:00:56 <msporny> Shane, are you going to be able to dial in?
15:01:11 <ShaneM> I am in
15:01:28 <Steven> As soon as I hit a link, the sound quality deteriorates
15:01:32 <Zakim> +ShaneM
15:03:13 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-mobile
15:03:14 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made
15:03:14 <Zakim> +Steven
15:03:47 <Ralph> Shane: I raised issue-120 and I believe it's [easy to] close
15:03:59 <Ralph> scribenick: Ralph
15:04:04 <Steven> zakim, drop me
15:04:04 <Zakim> Steven is being disconnected
15:04:05 <Zakim> -Steven
15:04:08 <msporny> http://www.w3.org/2008/05/08-rdfa-minutes.html#ActionSummary
15:04:15 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-mobile
15:04:15 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made
15:04:17 <Zakim> +Steven
15:04:27 <Ralph> [DONE] ACTION: Manu to e-mail final Christian Hoertnagl response. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/08-rdfa-minutes.html#action13]
15:04:33 <Ralph> [DONE] ACTION: Manu to review current on hold test cases and e-mail list on what we should do with them. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/08-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]
15:04:40 <Zakim> -Steven
15:04:42 <Ralph> ACTION: Michael to determine which useless-triples test cases to remove and which to add. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/08-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]
15:04:44 <Ralph> -- continues
15:04:50 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-mobile
15:04:54 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made
15:04:56 <Zakim> +Steven
15:05:03 <Ralph> ACTION: Manu to reach out to Slashdot and attempt to get RDFa integrated into Slashdot. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/08-rdfa-minutes.html#action10]
15:05:03 <Ralph>  
15:05:08 <Ralph> -- continues
15:05:16 <Ralph> Manu: I've sent email, awaiting a response
15:05:16 <Zakim> -Steven
15:05:22 <Ralph> ACTION: Ben followup with Fabien on getting his RDFa GRDDL transform transferred to W3C [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/15-rdfa-minutes.html#action01]
15:05:25 <Ralph> -- continues
15:05:29 <Ralph> Manu: it's in progress
15:05:40 <Ralph> ACTION: Ben to respond to issue 87 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action09]
15:05:47 <Zakim> +Steven
15:06:06 <Ralph> -> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/track/issues/87 issue 87
15:06:11 <Ralph> Shane: issue 87 is closed
15:06:11 <Zakim> -Steven
15:06:15 <Steven> it was working earlier today. Not ringing my end
15:06:17 <Ralph> -- done
15:06:33 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-mobile
15:06:33 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made
15:06:36 <Zakim> +Steven
15:06:37 <Ralph> ACTION: Mark to move _:a bnode notation to normative section [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/04/03-rdfa-minutes.html#action05]
15:06:39 <Ralph> -- continues
15:06:57 <Zakim> -Steven
15:07:29 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-mobile
15:07:29 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made
15:07:31 <Zakim> +Steven
15:07:49 <Ralph> ACTION: Michael to create 'RDFa for uF users' on RDFa Wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/03/13-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]
15:07:51 <Ralph> -- continues
15:07:59 <Ralph> zakim, mute steven
15:07:59 <Zakim> Steven should now be muted
15:08:08 <Steven> voice mail?
15:08:16 <Steven> ok, thanks
15:08:19 <Steven> zakim, code?
15:08:19 <Zakim> the conference code is 7332 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), Steven
15:08:25 <msporny> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008May/0084.html
15:08:30 <Ralph> Topic: Test Case Review
15:09:01 <Ralph> -- test 4; xml:base
15:09:14 <Ralph> Manu: we don't process xml:base, so I suggest we reject test 4
15:09:31 <msporny> http://rdfa.digitalbazaar.com/rdfa-test-harness/
15:09:44 <Zakim> + +1.617.500.aaaa
15:09:53 <Steven> zakim, aaaa is me
15:09:53 <Zakim> +Steven; got it
15:10:45 <Ralph> PROPOSE to reject test #4
15:10:56 <ShaneM> +1
15:10:59 <Ralph> RESOLVED to reject test #4 xml:base
15:11:14 <Ralph> -- test 17; Related blanknodes
15:11:38 <Ralph> Manu: I suggest we rewrite test 17 to cover explicit bnode relationships
15:11:39 <Zakim> -Steven
15:11:55 <msporny> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008May/0096.html
15:11:57 <Steven> I'm here
15:11:59 <Steven> muted
15:13:11 <Ralph> Manu: note that the SPARQL intentionally uses different bnode names just to insure that the implementation didn't hardcode the names
15:13:49 <msporny> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008May/0096.html
15:14:22 <Ralph> PROPOSE to replace test 17 with http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008May/0096.html
15:14:44 <Ralph> Shane: this is the case that Mark's action refers to
15:15:16 <Ralph> ... to take some non-normative text about bnodes and CURIEs and make it normative
15:15:36 <Ralph> ... I just talked with Mark and am preparing to fix the spec now
15:16:12 <ShaneM> I think the new test case is fine. 
15:16:57 <Ralph> +1 to proposal
15:17:02 <Steven> +1
15:17:06 <Ralph> RESOLVED to replace test 17 with http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008May/0096.html
15:17:46 <Ralph> RESOLVED test 17 approved per http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008May/0096.html
15:18:00 <Ralph> -- test 28
15:18:31 <Ralph> PROPOSE to reject test 28 @xml:lang and @datatype 
15:18:32 <ShaneM> +1
15:18:50 <Ralph> RESOLVED to reject test 28 @xml:lang and @datatype 
15:19:09 <Ralph> Manu: 107 and 108 replace 28
15:19:16 <Ralph> -- test 39
15:19:29 <Ralph> -- test 39 @rev - @src/@href test
15:19:46 <Ralph> Manu: this passes Ivan's parser and my parser
15:20:09 <Ralph> ... this test checks that implmentations don't use @href to override @src
15:20:51 <ShaneM> looks good.
15:20:54 <Steven> is there a similar test for @resource?
15:21:03 <ShaneM> yes its next
15:21:07 <Ralph> Ralph: looks good to me
15:21:11 <Steven> good
15:21:12 <Ralph> RESOLVED: test 39 approved
15:21:34 <Ralph> -- test 40; @rev - @src/@resource test 
15:21:37 <ShaneM> that one seems fine too.
15:21:51 <Ralph> Manu: 40 similar to 39, checking that @resource doesn't override @src
15:22:45 <Ralph> Manu: I'm not sure this one is correct
15:22:59 <Ralph> ... if we're checking that @resource doesn't override @src then we shouldn't use @about
15:23:15 <Ralph> ... if we remove @about then the SPARQL uses the @src value
15:23:55 <msporny> <img src="http://sw-app.org/img/mic_2007_01.jpg" 
15:23:55 <msporny>      rev="foaf:depicts"
15:23:55 <msporny>      resource="http://sw-app.org/img/mic_2006_03.jpg" 
15:23:56 <msporny>      alt="A photo depicting Michael" />
15:24:17 <msporny> ASK WHERE {
15:24:17 <msporny> <http://sw-app.org/img/mic_2006_03.jpg> <http://xmlns.com/foaf/0.1/depicts> <http://sw-app.org/img/mic_2007_01.jpg> .
15:24:51 <Ralph> Ralph: I believe this is a more useful test but the semantics are wrong (for foaf:depicts) now
15:24:56 <Ralph> Manu: foaf:alternate?
15:25:11 <Steven> Can't you use depicts for a photo within a photo?
15:25:44 <Ralph> ... ??:alternate ?
15:25:57 <Steven> htmlk:alternate
15:26:00 <Steven> s/k/
15:26:19 <Ralph> Shane: the definition of html:alternate isn't quite right for this
15:26:31 <Ralph> Manu: html:next works
15:27:07 <msporny> }
15:27:08 <msporny> <img src="http://sw-app.org/img/mic_2007_01.jpg" 
15:27:08 <msporny>      rev="previous"
15:27:08 <msporny>      resource="http://sw-app.org/img/mic_2006_03.jpg" 
15:27:08 <msporny>      alt="A photo depicting Michael" />
15:27:08 <ShaneM> I think we should change the definition of "alternate" in our vocabulary for what its worth.  This is dumb - "alternate designates alternate versions for the document."
15:27:14 <msporny> ASK WHERE {
15:27:14 <msporny> <http://sw-app.org/img/mic_2006_03.jpg> <http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/vocab#previous> <http://sw-app.org/img/mic_2007_01.jpg> .
15:27:16 <msporny> }
15:27:38 <Steven> http://farm1.static.flickr.com/15/22341209_48084a909b.jpg?v=0
15:28:42 <Ralph> Ralph: foaf:thumbnail ?
15:29:01 <Ralph> Manu: these two particular images are different; one isn't a thumbnail of the other
15:29:10 <Ralph> Shane: html:alternate is fine, as is html:next
15:29:10 <msporny> <img src="http://sw-app.org/img/mic_2007_01.jpg" 
15:29:11 <msporny>      rev="alternate"
15:29:11 <msporny>      resource="http://sw-app.org/img/mic_2006_03.jpg" 
15:29:11 <msporny>      alt="A photo depicting Michael" />
15:29:20 <msporny> ASK WHERE {
15:29:20 <msporny> <http://sw-app.org/img/mic_2006_03.jpg> <http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/vocab#alternate> <http://sw-app.org/img/mic_2007_01.jpg> .
15:29:20 <msporny> }
15:29:31 <Ralph> +1 to html:alternate
15:29:56 <Steven> http://farm1.static.flickr.com/15/22341209_48084a909b.jpg foaf:depicts http://www.w3.org/2005/Talks/06-steven-goteborg/guido.jpg
15:30:39 <Ralph> PROPOSE: change test 40 to drop @about and use html:alternate
15:30:42 <Steven> +1
15:30:57 <Ralph> RESOLVED: test 40 approved after changes to drop @about and use html:alternate
15:31:24 <Ralph> -- test 42; omitted @about
15:31:45 <Ralph> Manu: the SPARQL in the test harness is still wrong
15:31:50 <Ralph> ... no triples should be generated
15:32:16 <Ralph> ... this should be turned into a negative test
15:32:23 <Ralph> ... testing that @src is not a target
15:32:42 <Ralph> ... this was a change to our processing rules
15:33:19 <Ralph> Ralph: I agree; no triples should be generated
15:34:05 <Ralph> PROPOSED: test 42 approved after changing to a negative test and removing triples from the SPARQL
15:34:18 <Ralph> RESOLVED: test 42 approved after changing to a negative test and removing triples from the SPARQL
15:34:49 <Ralph> -- test 43; @src/@href test with omitted @about
15:35:27 <msporny> Test #43: REJECT    Duplicates TC#34, TC#35, and TC#90
15:35:32 <msporny> Test #44: REJECT    Duplicates TC#32, TC#37, and TC#40
15:35:37 <msporny> Test #45: REJECT    Duplicates TC#32, TC#36, TC#37
15:35:42 <ShaneM> +1
15:35:44 <Ralph> Manu: 43, 44, and 45 are obsoleted by 34, 35, 90; 32, 37, 40; 32, 36, 37
15:35:55 <Ralph> Ralph: I trust you
15:36:34 <Steven> =1
15:36:34 <Steven> +1
15:36:34 <Ralph> RESOLVED: tests 43, 44, and 45 dropped
15:36:54 <ShaneM> updated vocab document is at http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/xhtml-vocab-20080515.html - Ralph, can you please install it in /1999/xhtml/vocab as appropriate?
15:36:59 <msporny> http://rdfa.digitalbazaar.com/rdfa-test-harness/
15:37:29 <Ralph> Topic: Unreviewed Tests
15:37:46 <Ralph> -- test 95; No triples with two nested @rel
15:37:58 <Ralph> Manu: I think tests 95, 96, and 97 should be rejected
15:38:09 <Ralph> ... we changed the processing rules to retain "useless" triples
15:38:17 <Ralph> ... so these tests are obsolete
15:38:25 <Ralph> PROPOSE: reject tests 95, 96, 97
15:38:46 <ShaneM> +1
15:38:47 <Steven> +1
15:38:50 <Ralph> RESOLVED: reject tests 95, 96, 97
15:39:07 <Ralph> -- test 104; rdf:value
15:39:29 <Ralph> Manu: the objective of 104 is to have an example of a value with a unit
15:40:29 <Ralph> Ralph: this doesn't really test anything new about RDFa; it's more demonstrating a use case
15:40:46 <Ralph> Manu: whomever raised this was concerned specifically about rdf:value
15:40:52 <Ralph> Ralph: I don't mind duplicate tests
15:41:54 <Steven> where is 104?
15:42:12 <Steven> Oh found it
15:42:33 <Ralph> +1
15:42:38 <Steven> +1
15:42:40 <ShaneM> Harmless - +1
15:42:50 <Ralph> RESOLVED: test 104 approved
15:43:01 <Ralph> -- test 105; inner @rel neither CURIE nor LinkType
15:43:59 <Ralph> Manu: the point in test 105 is that the inner @rel doesn't chain because "myfoobarrel" isn't a valid CURIE
15:44:11 <Ralph> Shane: mmmmm
15:44:36 <Ralph> ... there was a private discussion about issue 120 that resolved this
15:44:55 <Ralph> ... Mark has changed the editor's draft
15:45:13 <Ralph> ... I'm not sure if the current interpretation matches 105
15:45:35 <Ralph> Ralph: propose to passover 105
15:45:39 <Ralph> Shane: passover 106 too
15:45:57 <Ralph> -- test 107; plain literal with datatype="" 
15:46:12 <Ralph> Manu: 107 is to replace test a test we rejected
15:46:27 <Ralph> ... test 28 (rejected)
15:47:44 <Ralph> ... test 107 tests that whitespace is preserved
15:48:00 <Ralph> ... both Ivan's parser and mine pass 107
15:48:36 <Ralph> Ralph: looks good to me
15:50:29 <Ralph> Ralph: do we believe all the N3 and RDF/XML variants of these tests?
15:50:49 <ShaneM> +1
15:50:56 <Ralph> Manu: all the N3 comes from Ivan's parser, so if Ivan's parser passes the test then the N3 is OK.  But for now, continue to ignore the N3 and RDF/XML
15:51:11 <Steven> +1
15:51:12 <Ralph> RESOLVED: test 107 approved
15:51:25 <Ralph> -- test 108; plain literal with datatype="" and xml:lang preservation
15:51:36 <Ralph> Manu: I believe there's an error in the SPARQL for test 108
15:52:07 <Ralph> ... I believe @el is missing from the end of the SPARQL
15:52:22 <Ralph> Ralph: yep, SPARQL should preserve the lang too
15:52:43 <Zakim> -Steven.a
15:53:30 <Ralph> PROPOSE: accept test 108 correcting the SPARQL to specify the language
15:53:32 <ShaneM> +1 with changing sparql to include @el
15:53:54 <Ralph> RESOLVED: accept test 108 correcting the SPARQL to specify the language
15:54:43 <Ralph> -- test 109; xml:base should be ignored
15:54:58 <Ralph> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008May/0112.html "Test Case #109: xml:base should be ignored in XHTML+RDFa 1.0" [Manu 2008-05-13]
15:55:07 <Zakim> + +003162467aabb
15:55:15 <Ralph> Shane: Michael's question was "should invalid markup generate any triples?"
15:55:21 <msporny> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008May/0115.html
15:55:21 <Ralph> ... the answer should be 'no'
15:55:31 <Ralph> Manu: we don't have a way to test invalid markup
15:55:45 <Ralph> Shane: parsers are likely to generate triples when they don't validate the input
15:55:46 <msporny> ?
15:55:51 <Ralph> ... I think it's fine to include the test
15:56:11 <msporny> msporny has joined #rdfa
15:56:26 <Ralph> Shane: looking at the specifics;
15:56:42 <Ralph> ... @xml:base on the root and on the div
15:57:13 <Ralph> Manu: we're trying to test that @xml:base is ignored and the @about value is the subject
15:57:19 <Steven> Steven has joined #rdfa
15:57:36 <Ralph> Shane: we're insuring parsers ignore @xml:base
15:57:45 <Steven> sorry network break. Which test is this?
15:58:12 <Ralph> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008May/0112.html
15:58:19 <Ralph> proposed test 109
15:58:40 <Ralph> Shane: we have another test for @base
15:59:11 <msporny> [   TEST  ] Test #72 (approved): Relative URI in @about (with XHTML base in head)  [  show details  | hide details  ]
15:59:11 <msporny> [ TEST ] Test #73 (approved): Relative URI in @resource (with XHTML base in head) [ show details | hide details ]
15:59:12 <msporny> [ TEST ] Test #74 (approved): Relative URI in @href (with XHTML base in head) [ show details | hide details ]
15:59:28 <Ralph> Ralph: I fall on the side of the concern that Michael is expressing
15:59:38 <Ralph> ... we don't specify behavior for invalid input
15:59:41 <Steven> where do I find it?
15:59:53 <Ralph> Steven, see http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008May/0112.html
16:00:05 <Steven> thanks
16:00:21 <Ralph> Manu: this question has been raised on the list several times
16:00:31 <Ralph> s/has/about @xml:base has/
16:00:43 <Ralph> ... realistically, a lot of parsers will deal with invalid XHTML
16:01:24 <Ralph> Ralph: how about we add a big XML comment saying this isn't valid XHTML
16:01:45 <Ralph> Shane: I'm not offended by the current form, a comment is fine
16:03:13 <Ralph> PROPOSE: to accept test 109 with an added XML comment noting this is not valid XHTML
16:03:28 <Ralph> Ralph: +1
16:03:38 <Steven> +1
16:03:41 <ShaneM> +1
16:03:47 <Ralph> RESOLVED: to accept test 109 with an added XML comment noting this is not valid XHTML
16:03:52 <ShaneM> PROPOSE: Add a comment to rdfa-syntax that conforming parsers are NOT required to generate triples from invalid input.
16:04:10 <Ralph> Ralph: absolutely +1
16:04:18 <Steven> +1
16:05:15 <msporny> +1
16:05:25 <Ralph> Shane: this tacitly encourages document authors to make valid documents
16:05:37 <Ralph> RESOLVED: Add a comment to rdfa-syntax that conforming parsers are NOT required to generate triples from invalid input.
16:06:05 <Ralph> Shane: I'm about to make an updated editor's draft
16:06:07 <Steven> Regrets for next week
16:06:08 <Zakim> -ShaneM
16:06:09 <Ralph> [adjourned]
16:06:12 <Steven> I am chairing a conference
16:06:14 <Ralph> Ralph: regrets for next week too
16:06:18 <Zakim> - +003162467aabb
16:06:41 <Zakim> -Ralph
16:06:42 <Zakim> -msporny
16:06:52 <Zakim> SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has ended
16:06:56 <Zakim> Attendees were Ralph, msporny, ShaneM, Steven, +1.617.500.aaaa, +003162467aabb
16:10:25 <Ralph> http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/vocab is now updated
16:11:04 <Ralph> Shane, any objection to adding $id$ or $revision$ to the vocab namespace document?
16:11:23 <Ralph> (a visible version identifier)
16:12:17 <Ralph> zakim, bye
16:12:17 <Zakim> Zakim has left #rdfa
16:12:25 <Ralph> rrsagent, please draft minutes
16:12:25 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/05/15-rdfa-minutes.html Ralph