IRC log of bpwg on 2008-04-24

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:57:48 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #bpwg

13:57:48 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/04/24-bpwg-irc

13:57:50 [trackbot-ng]

RRSAgent, make logs public

13:57:50 [Zakim]

Zakim has joined #bpwg

13:57:52 [trackbot-ng]

Zakim, this will be BPWG

13:57:52 [Zakim]

ok, trackbot-ng; I see MWI_BPWG()10:00AM scheduled to start in 3 minutes

13:57:53 [trackbot-ng]

Meeting: Mobile Web Best Practices Working Group Teleconference

13:57:54 [trackbot-ng]

Date: 24 April 2008

13:57:57 [francois]

Chair: jo

13:58:11 [francois]

Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg/2008Apr/0084.html

13:59:16 [Zakim]

MWI_BPWG()10:00AM has now started

13:59:21 [francois]

Regrets: EdM, Magnus, MartinJ, Shahriar, Murari, Yeliz, Seungyun

13:59:23 [Zakim]

+hgerlach

13:59:55 [Zakim]

+francois

14:00:27 [jo]

zakim, code?

14:00:27 [Zakim]

the conference code is 2794 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), jo

14:00:51 [Zakim]

+ +34.98.429.aaaa - is perhaps Diego

14:01:20 [Zakim]

+jo

14:01:35 [manrique]

manrique has joined #bpwg

14:02:04 [adam]

adam has joined #bpwg

14:02:06 [abel_]

zakim, +34.98.429.aaaa is me

14:02:07 [Zakim]

sorry, abel_, I do not recognize a party named '+34.98.429.aaaa'

14:02:19 [matt]

zaqkim, aaaa is abel_

14:02:24 [matt]

zakim, aaaa is abel_

14:02:25 [Zakim]

sorry, matt, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa'

14:02:29 [jo]

zakim, aaaa is Three_musketeers

14:02:29 [Zakim]

sorry, jo, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa'

14:02:40 [francois]

zakim, who is on the call?

14:02:40 [Zakim]

On the phone I see hgerlach, francois, Diego, jo

14:02:53 [Zakim]

+adam

14:02:55 [francois]

zakim, Diego is abel

14:02:55 [Zakim]

+abel; got it

14:03:07 [francois]

zakim, abel holds manrique, miguel

14:03:07 [Zakim]

+manrique, miguel; got it

14:03:49 [Zakim]

+Bryan_Sullivan

14:04:50 [adam]

scribe: adam

14:04:50 [francois]

Scribe: adam

14:04:54 [francois]

ScribeNick: adam

14:05:45 [adam]

Topic: Checker Taskforce

14:05:56 [adam]

jo: sean has sadly left the group so we need a new leader.

14:06:14 [adam]

TF is near end of its lifetime but we should consider if we need a new leader.

14:06:17 [SeanP]

SeanP has joined #bpwg

14:06:29 [adam]

francois: new leader should be one of the active participants of checker TF

14:07:43 [Zakim]

+SeanP

14:09:05 [adam]

jo: Prefer for Dom to take this on. We should ask him.

14:09:30 [jo]

ACTION: Daoust to ask Dom if he can become TF leader for Checker for last couple of weeks

14:09:30 [trackbot-ng]

Created ACTION-743 - Ask Dom if he can become TF leader for Checker for last couple of weeks [on François Daoust - due 2008-05-01].

14:09:44 [adam]

Topic: Content Transformation

14:10:29 [adam]

francois: Have only received one piece of feedback. Currently resolving editorial notes one by one.

14:11:12 [adam]

francois: As discussed charter is for document to be informative and not normative... But in practice document makes more sense as a normative document.

14:11:38 [adam]

jo: we should take a resolution to request amendment of the charter.

14:11:40 [jo]

PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Request amendment to Charter if necessary to make the Guidelines Rec Track

14:12:30 [jo]

PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Request amendment to Charter if necessary to make the Guidelines Rec Track / Normative

14:12:37 [francois]

+1

14:12:43 [adam]

+1

14:12:46 [SeanP]

+1

14:13:25 [adam]

RESOLUTION: Request amendment to Charter if necessary to make the Guidelines Rec Track / Normative

14:13:37 [achuter]

achuter has joined #bpwg

14:13:55 [adam]

Topic: mobileOK Basic

14:13:59 [francois]

Regrets+ drooks

14:14:27 [jo]

-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg/2008Apr/0068.html Discussion on MobileOK Validation

14:14:27 [adam]

jo: Has been discussion on list about resolution to remove DTD validation.

14:15:25 [jo]

-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg/2008Apr/0072.html Revised Proposal on treatment of DOCTYPEs

14:16:18 [nacho]

nacho has joined #bpwg

14:16:40 [adam]

miguel: [ sorry, i can't hear you very well, miguel. ]

14:17:46 [adam]

jo: miguel believes that the doc looks okay and the known docs types basic1.0 -> basic1.1 and mp1.0 -> mp1.2 is okay.

14:18:30 [Zakim]

+[IPcaller]

14:18:36 [achuter]

zakim, IPCaller is me

14:18:36 [Zakim]

+achuter; got it

14:19:04 [jo]

PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Ref DOCTYPE checking, adopt the proposal in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg/2008Apr/0072.html and check against doctypes of basic 1.0/1 and MP 1.0/2

14:19:14 [francois]

+1

14:19:15 [manrique]

+1

14:19:43 [jo]

PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Ref DOCTYPE checking in mobileOK Basic, adopt the proposal in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg/2008Apr/0072.html and check against doctypes of basic 1.0/1 and MP 1.0/2

14:19:51 [adam]

RESOLUTION: Ref DOCTYPE checking in mobileOK Basic, adopt the proposal in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg/2008Apr/0072.html and check against doctypes of basic 1.0/1 and MP 1.0/2

14:19:54 [francois]

q+ to wonder about CSS whitespaces now that we're to move back to Last Call

14:20:11 [adam]

Topic: Accessibility

14:20:37 [adam]

jo: update on 734 progress, please.

14:20:51 [francois]

Regrets+ AlanTai

14:21:03 [jo]

s/734/ACTION-734

14:21:26 [francois]

q?

14:21:27 [adam]

jo: Currently unable to hear Alan so we will come back.

14:22:13 [adam]

francois: Wondering about resolution to leave whitespace in css since we are moving back to last call. It is already in checker.

14:22:47 [adam]

jo: Relatively small quorum to make that call. Lets raise it on the list.

14:23:02 [adam]

Topic: BP2

14:23:08 [francois]

ack me

14:23:08 [Zakim]

francois, you wanted to wonder about CSS whitespaces now that we're to move back to Last Call

14:24:04 [adam]

jo: ISSUE-245, the discussion about recreating the ADC.

14:25:20 [adam]

jo: Kai highlighted some useful thoughts on this. Personally I feel that ADC is non-starter. Categorization of devices from an application perspective takes its place.

14:26:41 [adam]

bryan: Overall, not so happy about setting targets for functionality since it narrows scope of discussion unnecessarily.

14:26:55 [francois]

+1 to bryan and jo, same arguments...

14:27:20 [adam]

achuter: Agrees that it's not a very good idea unless it's actually needed to make sense.

14:28:08 [jo]

PROPOSED RESOLUTION: ISSUE-245 ADC goes back in coffin and close ISSUE-245

14:28:24 [achuter]

+1

14:28:26 [Bryan]

+1

14:29:15 [adam]

francois: We should probably wait for Kai to join the call before taking the resolution.

14:29:18 [adam]

jo: agreed.

14:30:17 [adam]

jo: One additional point that was raised in discussion was that BP2 should make some reference to adaptation.

14:30:55 [adam]

bryan: Not sure. BP2 addresses direct intent to create contact services that are mobile friendly.

14:31:15 [adam]

jo: By adaptation I mean the server creating different views depending on device type.

14:32:29 [jo]

ACTION: Bryan to create a placeholder capturing discussion under ISSUE-245 on the need for adaptation (not transformation) to realise BP-2

14:32:29 [trackbot-ng]

Created ACTION-744 - Create a placeholder capturing discussion under ISSUE-245 on the need for adaptation (not transformation) to realise BP-2 [on Bryan Sullivan - due 2008-05-01].

14:32:49 [adam]

ISSUE-246, and earlier thread on naming.

14:32:59 [jo]

-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg/2008Apr/0016.html thread on naming

14:33:05 [adam]

jo: ISSUE-246, and earlier thread on naming.

14:33:18 [jo]

-> http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/issues/246 ISSUE-246

14:34:02 [adam]

achuter: The name BP2 is ambiguous. BP2 implies an update to BP1.

14:35:16 [adam]

jo: It is call "Mobile Web Applications Best Practices" we should be more consistent in using this name.

14:35:23 [adam]

achuter: Yes, that name makes more sense.

14:35:55 [adam]

jo: Bryan, is there scope to add some further explanation on relationship with BP1 ?

14:36:18 [adam]

bryan: Can beef this up some more. Do we need to go so far as a table of references?

14:36:43 [adam]

jo: No. Relevance is that BP1 applies when you don't know capabilities of device. BP2 is about exploiting device capabilities.

14:37:25 [adam]

jo: I can suggest the relevant text.

14:37:57 [jo]

ACTION: Jo to contribute text about relationship between BP1 and BP2

14:37:57 [trackbot-ng]

Created ACTION-745 - Contribute text about relationship between BP1 and BP2 [on Jo Rabin - due 2008-05-01].

14:38:24 [jo]

[and close ISSUE-26]

14:38:40 [francois]

s/ISSUE-26/ISSUE-246/

14:38:45 [adam]

jo: Next up, deer in headlights conversation :)

14:39:37 [adam]

bryan: There have been a substantial number of updates in response to comments. Some points still need discussion before I make further changes.

14:41:11 [jo]

q?

14:42:02 [adam]

bryan: Section on "One Web" could use some further input. Regarding Section 5, constraints, we need to give more thought to this too.

14:42:18 [adam]

bryan: Some sections have been removed as requested.

14:43:08 [adam]

bryan: Have added some text to non-browser web-runtime environment. Further input on this would be helpful.

14:49:46 [jo]

ACTION: Bryan to start a discussion on list about what constitutes non-browser web runtime and example application

14:49:46 [trackbot-ng]

Created ACTION-746 - Start a discussion on list about what constitutes non-browser web runtime and example application [on Bryan Sullivan - due 2008-05-01].

14:49:47 [adam]

adam: haven't managed to read latest version of document yet, sorry. some concerns on what constitutes a non-browser web-runtime and that it is not possible to make statements that are equally applicable to browser web-application and non-browser web-applications.

14:50:33 [adam]

bryan / adam: [ some further discussion ]

14:50:55 [adam]

jo: Suggest that we start an email thread on examples of non-browser web-runtimes.

14:51:47 [adam]

jo: Hope that we will be ready for FPWD on next call if we can clarify these remaining points.

14:51:57 [adam]

francois: Agreed.

14:53:42 [adam]

jo: Lets try to get this resolved by next week provided that works for Bryan.

14:53:59 [adam]

bryan: That works for me so long as we can get past the fundamental questions of scope.

14:54:40 [adam]

bryan: Two other things causing debate: 1) What is mobile specific, how does that goal guide us?

14:55:32 [adam]

bryan: 2) What is web? And what is mobile web? Is mobile web in some cases larger than mobile web?

14:55:55 [adam]

bryan: e.g. Push technology ?

14:56:33 [adam]

bryan: Want us to settle those two questions.

14:58:04 [adam]

jo: We should raise these as issues so we can iron them out.

14:58:25 [jo]

ACTION: Bryan to raise ISSUE(s) on what's mobile specific and What's Mobile Web

14:58:25 [trackbot-ng]

Created ACTION-747 - Raise ISSUE(s) on what's mobile specific and What's Mobile Web [on Bryan Sullivan - due 2008-05-01].

14:59:40 [adam]

jo: Wanted to raise issue regarding "how to test it" sections. BP1 "how to test it" didn't work well. Suggest dropping the how to test it section.

15:00:32 [jo]

PROPOSED RESOLUTION: BP2 should not include How to test it sections

15:00:43 [achuter]

+1

15:00:46 [jo]

+1

15:00:47 [adam]

adam: agree. "tests" aren't necessarily the correct formulation for the kinds of things we are trying to express.

15:00:48 [adam]

+1

15:02:59 [adam]

achuter: Then there should be a clarification in the document on this. So it is clear it will not be possible to make your site BP2 compliant.

15:03:50 [hgerlach]

sorry I have to leave for a next call

15:03:54 [Zakim]

-hgerlach

15:03:58 [adam]

RESOLUTION: BP2 should not include How to test it sections

15:04:03 [achuter]

If BPs are not testable, it will not be possible for people to require compliance

15:04:06 [jo]

ACTION: daoust to check what we need to do about a conformance section in BP2

15:04:06 [trackbot-ng]

Created ACTION-748 - Check what we need to do about a conformance section in BP2 [on François Daoust - due 2008-05-01].

15:05:37 [adam]

jo: And another thing... Document is about exploiting capabilities. So document should contain structure: This is capability, this is how to exploit it, this is what to do if it's not there.

15:06:48 [adam]

adam: Concerned that if doc is only about this, and this is baked into the doc structure, will there be enough to say. Can we enumerate device capabilities we are going to talk about.

15:07:04 [adam]

jo: Concerned that we might be heading down a slightly vague route akin to BP1.

15:07:23 [abel]

abel has joined #bpwg

15:08:25 [adam]

bryan: Agree on point about BP1 = a bag of topics related to mobile context. If we turn it around to "these are mobile specific" here's how you exploit them doc may be clearer but we will lose something.

15:09:06 [adam]

jo: Lets see how discussion proceeds next week and come back to this.

15:09:21 [adam]

Topic: AOB

15:10:58 [Zakim]

-achuter

15:11:00 [Zakim]

-Bryan_Sullivan

15:11:01 [Zakim]

-SeanP

15:11:02 [Zakim]

-adam

15:11:03 [manrique]

bye

15:11:04 [Zakim]

-abel

15:11:06 [Zakim]

-francois

15:11:07 [Zakim]

-jo

15:11:07 [Zakim]

MWI_BPWG()10:00AM has ended

15:11:08 [Zakim]

Attendees were hgerlach, francois, +34.98.429.aaaa, jo, adam, manrique, miguel, Bryan_Sullivan, SeanP, achuter

15:11:40 [francois]

RRSAgent, draft minutes

15:11:40 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/04/24-bpwg-minutes.html francois

15:11:44 [jo]

present+ Abel

15:12:12 [francois]

RRSAgent, draft minutes

15:12:12 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/04/24-bpwg-minutes.html francois

15:17:07 [francois]

RRSAgent, bye

15:17:07 [RRSAgent]

I see 6 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2008/04/24-bpwg-actions.rdf :

15:17:07 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Daoust to ask Dom if he can become TF leader for Checker for last couple of weeks [1]

15:17:07 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/04/24-bpwg-irc#T14-09-30

15:17:07 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Bryan to create a placeholder capturing discussion under ISSUE-245 on the need for adaptation (not transformation) to realise BP-2 [2]

15:17:07 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/04/24-bpwg-irc#T14-32-29

15:17:07 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Jo to contribute text about relationship between BP1 and BP2 [3]

15:17:07 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/04/24-bpwg-irc#T14-37-57

15:17:07 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Bryan to start a discussion on list about what constitutes non-browser web runtime and example application [4]

15:17:07 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/04/24-bpwg-irc#T14-49-46

15:17:07 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Bryan to raise ISSUE(s) on what's mobile specific and What's Mobile Web [5]

15:17:07 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/04/24-bpwg-irc#T14-58-25

15:17:07 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: daoust to check what we need to do about a conformance section in BP2 [6]

15:17:07 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/04/24-bpwg-irc#T15-04-06

15:17:11 [francois]

Zakim, bye

15:17:11 [Zakim]

Zakim has left #bpwg