12:44:54 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #xmlsec
12:44:54 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/04/15-xmlsec-irc
12:44:56 <trackbot-ng> RRSAgent, make logs public
12:44:56 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #xmlsec
12:44:58 <trackbot-ng> Zakim, this will be XMLSEC
12:44:58 <Zakim> ok, trackbot-ng; I see T&S_XMLSEC()9:00AM scheduled to start in 16 minutes
12:44:59 <trackbot-ng> Meeting: XML Security Specifications Maintenance Working Group Teleconference
12:44:59 <trackbot-ng> Date: 15 April 2008
12:46:29 <fjh> fjh has joined #xmlsec
12:46:50 <fjh> zakim, who is here?
12:46:50 <Zakim> T&S_XMLSEC()9:00AM has not yet started, fjh
12:46:51 <Zakim> On IRC I see fjh, Zakim, RRSAgent, tlr, trackbot-ng
12:47:36 <fjh> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xmlsec-maintwg/2008Apr/0016.html
12:47:42 <fjh> Chair: Frederick Hirsch
12:48:12 <fjh> Scribe: John Wray
12:50:01 <Zakim> T&S_XMLSEC()9:00AM has now started
12:50:08 <Zakim> + +1.978.888.aaaa
12:50:13 <tlr> zakim, call thomas-781
12:50:13 <Zakim> ok, tlr; the call is being made
12:50:14 <Zakim> +Thomas
12:50:49 <Zakim> +Frederick_Hirsch
12:50:49 <tlr> zakim, aaaa is jwray
12:50:51 <Zakim> +jwray; got it
12:51:43 <fjh> zakim, who is here?
12:51:43 <Zakim> On the phone I see jwray, Thomas, Frederick_Hirsch
12:51:44 <Zakim> On IRC I see fjh, Zakim, RRSAgent, tlr, trackbot-ng
12:52:51 <fjh> Topic: Administrative
12:54:35 <sean> sean has joined #xmlsec
12:54:45 <CGI421> CGI421 has joined #xmlsec
12:55:26 <jcc> jcc has joined #xmlsec
12:57:53 <fjh> Topic: Meeting Planning
12:58:53 <Zakim> +??P4
12:59:15 <fjh> zakim, p4 is rob miller
12:59:15 <Zakim> I don't understand 'p4 is rob miller', fjh
12:59:37 <tlr> zakim, ??P4 is rob miller
12:59:37 <Zakim> I don't understand '??P4 is rob miller', tlr
12:59:44 <Zakim> + +1.617.876.aabb
12:59:45 <tlr> zakim, ??P4 is RobMiller
12:59:45 <Zakim> +RobMiller; got it
13:00:03 <fjh> zakim, aabb is sean
13:00:03 <Zakim> +sean; got it
13:00:09 <fjh> zakim, who is here?
13:00:09 <Zakim> On the phone I see jwray, Thomas, Frederick_Hirsch, RobMiller, sean
13:00:10 <Zakim> On IRC I see jcc, sean, fjh, Zakim, RRSAgent, tlr, trackbot-ng
13:00:11 <Zakim> +Ed_Simon
13:00:19 <Zakim> + +1.512.401.aacc
13:00:21 <brich> brich has joined #xmlsec
13:00:33 <fjh> zakim, aacc is brich
13:00:33 <Zakim> +brich; got it
13:00:39 <fjh> zakim, who is here?
13:00:39 <Zakim> On the phone I see jwray, Thomas, Frederick_Hirsch, RobMiller, sean, Ed_Simon, brich
13:00:41 <Zakim> On IRC I see brich, jcc, sean, fjh, Zakim, RRSAgent, tlr, trackbot-ng
13:01:45 <PHB> PHB has joined #xmlsec
13:01:57 <PHB> zakim, code?
13:01:57 <Zakim> the conference code is 965732 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), PHB
13:02:07 <Zakim> +??P13
13:02:23 <Zakim> +PHB
13:02:23 <EdS> EdS has joined #xmlsec
13:02:40 <fjh> zakim, P13 is jcc
13:02:40 <Zakim> sorry, fjh, I do not recognize a party named 'P13'
13:02:41 <pdatta> pdatta has joined #xmlsec
13:02:49 <fjh> zakim, ??P13 is jcc
13:02:49 <Zakim> +jcc; got it
13:02:56 <fjh> zakim, who is here?
13:02:56 <Zakim> On the phone I see jwray, Thomas, Frederick_Hirsch, RobMiller, sean, Ed_Simon, brich, jcc, PHB
13:02:59 <Zakim> On IRC I see pdatta, EdS, PHB, brich, jcc, sean, fjh, Zakim, RRSAgent, tlr, trackbot-ng
13:03:17 <Zakim> +Hal_Lockhart
13:03:59 <Zakim> +James_Nurthen
13:04:19 <tlr> zakim, James_Nurthen is really Pratik_Datta
13:04:31 <Zakim> +Pratik_Datta; got it
13:04:48 <fjh> zakim, who is here?
13:04:53 <Zakim> On the phone I see jwray, Thomas, Frederick_Hirsch, RobMiller, sean, Ed_Simon, brich, jcc, PHB, Hal_Lockhart, Pratik_Datta
13:05:04 <Zakim> On IRC I see pdatta, EdS, PHB, brich, jcc, sean, fjh, Zakim, RRSAgent, tlr, trackbot-ng
13:05:08 <klanz2> klanz2 has joined #xmlsec
13:05:48 <tlr> ScribeNick: tlr
13:06:14 <shivaram> shivaram has joined #xmlsec
13:06:37 <tlr> zakim, call thomas-781
13:06:37 <Zakim> ok, tlr; the call is being made
13:06:39 <Zakim> +Thomas.a
13:06:46 <tlr> zakim, drop Thomas
13:06:46 <Zakim> Thomas is being disconnected
13:06:47 <Zakim> -Thomas
13:06:52 <Zakim> + +1.408.907.aadd
13:07:05 <fjh> next call is 6 May
13:07:14 <shivaram> zakim, aadd is shivaram
13:07:14 <Zakim> +shivaram; got it
13:07:29 <tlr> Frederick: next meeting 6 May, Shivaram to scribe
13:07:46 <shivaram> zakim, mute me
13:07:46 <Zakim> shivaram should now be muted
13:08:01 <tlr> frederick: sent material to WS-I
13:08:07 <fjh> WAF widget signing: http://www.w3.org/TR/widgets-digsig/
13:08:14 <tlr> ... widget signing is FPWD now ...
13:08:22 <tlr> ... you may want to review latest draft ...
13:08:33 <fjh> minutes - http://www.w3.org/2008/04/01-xmlsec-minutes.html
13:08:34 <tlr> topic: minutes from last meeting
13:08:43 <tlr> RESOLUTION: approved
13:09:03 <fjh> Dsig AC Reps http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/33280/xmlsigper2008/
13:09:08 <Zakim> +mscottm
13:09:10 <klanz2> zakim, ? is klanz2
13:09:10 <Zakim> sorry, klanz2, I do not recognize a party named '?'
13:09:23 <tlr> zakim, mscottm is really klanz2
13:09:23 <Zakim> +klanz2; got it
13:10:19 <fjh> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/33280/xmlsec2008/
13:10:24 <tlr> frederick: please make sure your AC reps submit reviews for PER and charter
13:10:33 <tlr> ... chartering deadline is 2 may
13:10:44 <tlr> ... contacting AC reps now might be helpful
13:10:57 <hal> hal has joined #xmlsec
13:11:14 <tlr> ... face-to-face schedule for kick-off getting tight
13:11:20 <tlr> ... propose week of 14 July ...
13:11:33 <tlr> ... how would that work? ...
13:11:42 <brich> that would be a problem for me
13:11:49 <tlr> juan carlos: would be a problem - holiday starting on the 15th
13:12:20 <sean> q+
13:12:30 <tlr> hal: first time I heard the date
13:12:31 <EdS> I would have to check for conflicts too.
13:12:38 <sean> q-
13:12:39 <tlr> ... no conflicts off the top of my head
13:12:53 <tlr> hal: location?
13:13:07 <PHB> q+
13:13:16 <tlr> frederick: had two offers from Europe (Barcelona or Graz) ...
13:13:49 <tlr> jcc: number?
13:14:00 <tlr> frederick: 15-20 as wild guess
13:14:22 <tlr> juan carlos: will check, may have some degrees of freedom
13:14:32 <tlr> hal: Can host in Boston or Bay for < 30 
13:15:04 <tlr> frederick: please share possibilities on member-visible list, what dates work, etc.
13:15:27 <tlr> frederick: konrad?
13:15:40 <tlr> konrad: umh
13:15:47 <tlr> tlr: talked to Peter last week, he said the offer is on
13:16:16 <tlr> pbaker: please make Tue-Thu, not Mon or Fri
13:16:19 <tlr> frederick: reasonable
13:16:30 <klanz2> ;-)
13:16:51 <tlr> topic: test case document
13:16:59 <klanz2> s/;-)//
13:17:31 <tlr> frederick: some editorial clean-up from Thomas, some content-wise from Sean
13:17:38 <fjh> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xmlsec-maintwg/2008Apr/0015.htm
13:17:44 <tlr> sean: main change in section 3.2
13:17:45 <fjh> section 3.3.4 and fixed reference
13:17:51 <tlr> s/3.2/3.3.4/
13:18:06 <tlr> ... explained optional behavior for generation, mandatory for verification ...
13:18:11 <tlr> ... improved wording, added rationale, etc ...
13:18:18 <tlr> ... tried to improve readability of section
13:18:24 <tlr> frederick: don't know if people have reviewed
13:19:26 <fjh> tlr: fixed markup, references, added text about conformance
13:19:40 <fjh> ... added sectioning for individual test cases for ease of use
13:20:39 <tlr> (discussion about make vs ant build processes)
13:21:39 <tlr> frederick: process for moving forward?
13:21:47 <tlr> tlr: moratorium ends 28 April
13:21:56 <tlr> frederick: expect to proceed with publication if don't hear by then
13:22:19 <tlr> topic: Relax NG schema
13:22:23 <fjh> http://www.w3.org/2007/xmlsec/Drafts/xmldsig-rngschema/
13:22:50 <fjh> tlr: request on original xmlsig list related to Open Office XML
13:23:02 <fjh> ... desire to have normative reference to Relax NG schema
13:23:15 <fjh> ... original version from Joseph Reagle on W3C site
13:23:43 <fjh> ... rather than having it copied, a Note might be preferable, especially since they wanted Compact Syntax which had not yet been created.
13:24:19 <fjh> ... Proposal, have minimal WG Note with both Relax NG full and compact syntax. Not normative document.
13:24:42 <fjh> ... Need review of Relax NG schema for correctness
13:24:53 <fjh> s/review/WG review
13:25:25 <tlr> http://www.w3.org/2007/xmlsec/Drafts/xmldsig-rngschema/
13:25:26 <klanz2> we do not support Relax NG
13:26:01 <shivaram> How many support  Relax NG?
13:26:22 <tlr> RobMiller: put out call on internal list for review
13:26:30 <tlr> ... will report back if/when there's more information ...
13:26:44 <tlr> hal: not committing anything either
13:26:53 <klanz2> well, we can parse what xalan can parse, but we'll always the signautre itself against xmlschema
13:27:17 <klanz2> s/always the/always check/
13:27:31 <klanz2> ack klanz2
13:27:34 <tlr> frederick: what's your message in the chat saying?
13:28:06 <tlr> klanz: we can try to validate a bunch of signatures against RNG schema
13:28:32 <fjh> ack phb
13:29:24 <tlr> frederick: konrad, if there's anything immediately noticeable, please say
13:29:39 <tlr> topic: best practices
13:29:46 <tlr> http://www.w3.org/2007/xmlsec/Drafts/xmldsig-bestpractices/
13:30:42 <tlr> frederick: tried to rework what Hal and Pratik had posted into that format
13:31:15 <klanz2> q+
13:31:41 <tlr> pratik: on xpath, had a list of xpath expressions
13:32:17 <tlr> ... example there was complex xpath that was signing no node ...
13:33:41 <tlr> frederick: more on nodes?
13:33:46 <tlr> hal: need bunch of references
13:33:57 <tlr> ... plan to do 5 more or so on the topics ...
13:34:02 <tlr> ... depth, different issues ...
13:34:28 <tlr> ... there's also some controversial issues ...
13:34:34 <tlr> ... will attempt to identify where people might disagree ...
13:34:35 <jcc> q+
13:34:58 <tlr> hal: question what's most expedient
13:35:09 <tlr> ack klanz
13:35:11 <fjh> ack klanz
13:35:23 <klanz2> ack klanz2
13:36:06 <fjh> ws-i bsp "threats and countermeasures"
13:36:10 <tlr> klanz2: think we should do some more referencing
13:36:15 <tlr> ... where others have done work ...
13:36:39 <tlr> ... there are some that are narrow xmldsig, some are about stuff on top of xmldsig ...
13:36:44 <tlr> ... time stamps are more broadly ...
13:36:55 <fjh> wider sense - e.g. application usage of xml signature
13:36:57 <tlr> ... xpath and canonicalization are narrower ...
13:37:03 <tlr> ... think there's a natural partition ...
13:37:10 <fjh> narrow sense - detail of xml signature standard itself
13:37:28 <tlr> hal: agree there's a logical division, not sure how easy to do 
13:37:32 <tlr> ... and how useful to the reader ...
13:37:45 <tlr> ... I'd think you'd always want to put in a time stamp ...
13:38:00 <fjh> question of defining roles, target audience  for individual best practices
13:38:04 <tlr> ... some of the other concerns only a few people will run into ...
13:38:31 <tlr> klanz: some applications might simply assume "signature was made during validity period"
13:39:14 <tlr> ... some points here go into PKI validation ...
13:39:23 <tlr> ... time stamping belongs there, too ...
13:39:32 <tlr> frederick: there are different audiences
13:39:58 <tlr> hal: want to talk about references
13:40:09 <tlr> ... what we learned doing in WSS ...
13:40:16 <tlr> ... what things turned out to be bad ideas ...
13:40:19 <tlr> ... are deprecated ..
13:40:22 <tlr> ... lots of stuff around that ...
13:40:42 <fjh> need to discuss referencing
13:40:45 <tlr> q?
13:40:48 <tlr> ack jcc
13:40:48 <fjh> acc jcc
13:40:51 <fjh> ack jcc
13:40:57 <tlr> jcc: what are the plans for the production of best practices
13:41:10 <tlr> ... do we expect people to provide material, and people may comment on the material ...
13:41:24 <tlr> ... what's the expectation? 
13:41:49 <tlr> frederick: two aspects to this question
13:41:54 <tlr> ... first one, what's WG process
13:42:03 <tlr> ... second one, what are the broader implications
13:42:07 <tlr> ... this is obviously a draft ...
13:42:15 <tlr> ... need agreement in the WG ...
13:42:29 <tlr> ... trying to put something down, then correct ...
13:42:36 <tlr> ... as opposed to inching toward it piecewise ...
13:42:40 <tlr> ... do stuff on list, get it started ...
13:42:52 <tlr> ... so, please comment ...
13:43:01 <tlr> ... broader question - how play out in general community ...
13:43:13 <tlr> ... is it important for us to get external feedback?
13:43:16 <tlr> ... e.g., WS-I, OASIS?
13:43:19 <tlr> q+
13:43:26 <tlr> ... what's the right process
13:44:12 <hal> +1
13:44:12 <shivaram> I would suggest an informal notice to all of these groups and have them comment on public mailing list. We can then invite them as needed.
13:45:00 <klanz2> tlr: Intended to be a Note
13:45:39 <klanz2> ... we can do a Deliverable like this in the next WG even without having it in the charter (process wise)
13:45:58 <fjh> tlr: can start and hand off to follow on WG
13:46:28 <klanz2> tlr: we can make working tdafts to notes
13:46:41 <fjh> tlr: can produce version, can publish as public WD to have continued by follow on wg, and seek input
13:46:43 <klanz2> s/tdafts/drafts/
13:46:52 <fjh> s/input/external input
13:46:59 <jcc> q+
13:47:00 <klanz2> q+
13:47:21 <tlr> q-
13:47:23 <tlr> jcc: personal feeling is that external review would be extremely useful
13:47:30 <fjh> ack jcc
13:47:34 <tlr> .... e.g., etsi has time-stamp related formats on top of dsig
13:47:46 <fjh> ack klanz
13:48:02 <hal> q+
13:48:02 <klanz2> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xmlsec-comments/
13:48:04 <tlr> klanz2: can we use the comments mailing list?
13:48:18 <tlr> ... for people to send input?
13:48:19 <tlr> tlr: yes
13:48:23 <fjh> tlr: this list is appropriate
13:48:47 <tlr> frederick: will take a bit of time to have an initial version that we're comfortable with
13:48:52 <tlr> ... can start public review at that point ...
13:48:59 <tlr> ... something to do before we have to worry about that ...
13:49:08 <tlr> ... sounds like we don't have a problem ...
13:49:15 <hal> q-
13:49:17 <tlr> ... main thing is to write down things we've learned in this group ...
13:49:41 <tlr> hal: 3-5 more mails of the same size, then might want to flush that out
13:49:53 <tlr> ... speaking to what JCC said, looking forward to comment ...
13:49:58 <tlr> ... would be surprised if I got it all right ...
13:50:10 <Zakim> -jcc
13:50:16 <tlr> ... another point, very true and general comments can end up being unintelligible ...
13:50:23 <tlr> frederick: yes, value of concrete examples
13:50:32 <tlr> q?
13:50:36 <fjh> q?
13:50:52 <jcc> Sorry, was kicked off
13:51:05 <tlr> klanz: think this is a good thing to lead us from this group to the next one
13:51:22 <jcc> dialing again
13:51:36 <tlr> frederick: anything else on best practices
13:51:46 <tlr> ... also, anybody who has material to contribute, please send to public list ...
13:52:09 <tlr> ... hoping to make progress on draft between now and next call ...
13:52:13 <tlr> topic: action item review
13:52:35 <tlr> trackbot-ng, close ACTION-147 
13:52:36 <trackbot-ng> ACTION-147 Update the test cases document; polish for publication as a Note closed
13:52:47 <Zakim> +??P7
13:52:59 <fjh> see http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xmlsec-maintwg/2008Apr/0010.html
13:53:05 <fjh> zakim, P7 is jcc
13:53:05 <Zakim> sorry, fjh, I do not recognize a party named 'P7'
13:53:13 <fjh> zakim, ??P7 is jcc
13:53:13 <Zakim> +jcc; got it
13:53:25 <tlr> trackbot-ng, close ACTION-148
13:53:25 <trackbot-ng> ACTION-148 Send comments to EXI group as circulated to the XMLSEC closed
13:53:52 <fjh> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xmlsec-maintwg/2008Apr/0009.html
13:54:00 <tlr> trackbot-ng, close ACTION-149 
13:54:00 <trackbot-ng> ACTION-149 Clarify DName testing in test case document closed
13:54:11 <fjh> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xmlsec-maintwg/2008Apr/0015.html
13:54:20 <tlr> ACTION-150?
13:54:20 <trackbot-ng> ACTION-150 -- Phillip Hallam-Baker to distribute a draft regarding identifiers registry -- due 2008-04-15 -- OPEN
13:54:20 <trackbot-ng> http://www.w3.org/2007/xmlsec/Group/track/actions/150
13:54:30 <Zakim> -jwray
13:55:08 <tlr> http://www.w3.org/2007/xmlsec/Group/track/actions/pendingreview
13:55:20 <tlr> trackbot-ng, close ACTION-121
13:55:20 <trackbot-ng> ACTION-121 Fix CR/LF issue for test case 103 closed
13:55:25 <tlr> trackbot-ng, close ACTION-126
13:55:25 <trackbot-ng> ACTION-126 Check consistency of 4.3.3.1 and references closed
13:55:40 <tlr> trackbot-ng, close ACTION-127
13:55:40 <trackbot-ng> ACTION-127 Propose change to charter draft that opens encryption, in a limited way closed
13:56:36 <tlr> topic: aob
13:57:21 <tlr> frederick: reminders again
13:57:21 <klanz2> thx
13:57:23 <tlr> ... RNG schema
13:57:25 <tlr> ... prod ac reps
13:57:27 <tlr> ... review best practices
13:57:29 <tlr> adjourned
13:57:31 <tlr> zakim, list participants
13:57:31 <Zakim> -Hal_Lockhart
13:57:33 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been +1.978.888.aaaa, Thomas, Frederick_Hirsch, jwray, +1.617.876.aabb, RobMiller, sean, Ed_Simon, +1.512.401.aacc, brich, PHB, jcc,
13:57:35 <Zakim> ... Hal_Lockhart, Pratik_Datta, Thomas.a, +1.408.907.aadd, shivaram, klanz2
13:57:35 <Zakim> -shivaram
13:57:36 <Zakim> -Pratik_Datta
13:57:37 <Zakim> -RobMiller
13:57:38 <Zakim> -brich
13:57:38 <Zakim> -sean
13:57:39 <Zakim> -PHB
13:57:41 <Zakim> -Thomas.a
13:57:43 <Zakim> -jcc
13:57:45 <Zakim> -Ed_Simon
13:57:46 <jcc> jcc has left #xmlsec
13:57:51 <fjh> zakim, who is here?
13:57:51 <Zakim> On the phone I see Frederick_Hirsch, klanz2
13:57:55 <Zakim> On IRC I see klanz2, PHB, brich, fjh, Zakim, RRSAgent, tlr, trackbot-ng
13:58:03 <Zakim> -klanz2
13:58:11 <Zakim> -Frederick_Hirsch
13:58:13 <Zakim> T&S_XMLSEC()9:00AM has ended
13:58:17 <Zakim> Attendees were +1.978.888.aaaa, Thomas, Frederick_Hirsch, jwray, +1.617.876.aabb, RobMiller, sean, Ed_Simon, +1.512.401.aacc, brich, PHB, jcc, Hal_Lockhart, Pratik_Datta, Thomas.a,
13:58:20 <Zakim> ... +1.408.907.aadd, shivaram, klanz2
13:58:42 <fjh> Zakim, list participants
13:58:44 <Zakim> sorry, fjh, I don't know what conference this is
13:59:16 <fjh> RRSAgent, make log public
13:59:29 <fjh> RRSAgent, generate minutes
13:59:29 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/04/15-xmlsec-minutes.html fjh
14:00:29 <fjh> Scribe: Thomas Roessler, Frederick Hirsch
14:00:53 <fjh> RRSAgent, generate minutes
14:00:53 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/04/15-xmlsec-minutes.html fjh
14:02:13 <tlr> rrsagent, make record public
14:02:15 <tlr> rrsagent, excuse us
14:02:15 <RRSAgent> I see no action items