17:45:33 RRSAgent has joined #ua 17:45:33 logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/04/10-ua-irc 17:45:47 Zakim, this will be UAWG 17:45:47 ok, Jan; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start 45 minutes ago 17:45:55 Meeting: WAI UA 17:46:02 Scribe: Jan 17:46:07 Chair: Jim Allan 17:46:30 Regrets: Gregory R., Kelly F. 17:47:15 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008AprJun/0026.html 18:01:17 judy has joined #ua 18:01:21 WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started 18:01:25 +??P6 18:01:28 +Cantor 18:01:29 zakim, code? 18:01:29 the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), judy 18:01:51 +Judy 18:01:54 zakim, who's here? 18:01:54 On the phone I see Cantor, ??P6, Judy 18:01:56 On IRC I see judy, RRSAgent, Zakim, AllanJ, Jan 18:02:05 zakim, ??P6 is really Jan 18:02:05 +Jan; got it 18:02:10 + +1.512.206.aaaa 18:02:34 zakim, +1.512.206.aaaa is really Jan 18:02:34 +Jan; got it 18:02:46 zakim, +1.512.206.aaaa is really AllanJ 18:02:46 sorry, Jan, I do not recognize a party named '+1.512.206.aaaa' 18:03:54 zakim, who's here? 18:03:54 On the phone I see Cantor, Jan, Judy, Jan.a 18:03:55 On IRC I see judy, RRSAgent, Zakim, AllanJ, Jan 18:04:07 zakim, Jan.a is really AllanJ 18:04:07 +AllanJ; got it 18:06:05 +Sean_Hayes 18:06:56 JB: Who was on call last week? 18:07:04 JR: Sean Hayes 18:07:05 Kelly Ford 18:07:07 Alan Cantor 18:07:09 Jan Richards 18:07:10 Gregory Rosmaita 18:07:27 Topic: 1. Continue Keyboard Access discussion 18:07:36 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008AprJun/0004.html 18:08:25 JA: So can we put these in our glossary? 18:08:40 JB: Yes if vetted 18:10:02 JR: Some terms used in 4.1 discussion 18:10:12 JA: Reads http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008AprJun/0004.html 18:13:43 SH: Sounded ok though accelerator keys may not be quite right 18:14:20 JB: Also I have contacted a person at Apple and ther may be interest in bringing someone in who works with keyboarding issues. 18:14:35 JB: Are these defintions sufficiently cross-platform? 18:14:54 SH: I think terms may change slightly but general concepts ok 18:15:06 JA: So like "also called..." 18:15:21 SH: But I don't think plle uses keyboard in any fundamental way 18:15:47 -Sean_Hayes 18:16:23 JR: I was trying to think of broad range including cell phones with few keys 18:16:40 JR: Think examples are maybe Windows specific 18:16:51 AC: WIndows specific 18:17:00 JB: OK i will send this pointer to them 18:17:11 JB: Might be premature to add to document yet 18:17:15 JA: OK 18:17:26 + +54558aabb 18:17:48 zakim, +54558aabb is really Sean 18:17:48 +Sean; got it 18:18:23 JB: It is important to be mapping out the differences between these terms 18:18:39 JB: For instance sequential concept is important to me 18:19:23 JB: Many people seem to think its no problem to have many many arrowing actions to operate a menu etc 18:19:58 AC: So two issues...1. how much is too much, 2nd is visibility issue - what things look like when they ahve focus 18:20:20 q+ 18:20:47 AC: Becoming increasingly an issue what things look like... 18:21:06 AC: It is my critique of this doc that there is no visual... 18:21:31 Action JB: Contact Apple about keyboard operability definitions 18:23:12 q- 18:23:16 Topic: b. JR and JA attempts at requirements that include visual indicators: 18:23:38 AC: speaking about visual indication of where the focus is 18:23:47 AC: Increasingly lost in Vista and other things 18:23:57 AC: Some windows always appear the same 18:23:59 for reference: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008JanMar/0052.html and http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008JanMar/0053.html 18:24:22 AC: Similarly when using TAB or arrows same problem 18:24:24 q+ 18:24:52 AC: These essentially break the keyboard accessibility 18:24:56 q+ 18:25:01 +q visual indicators in content 18:25:38 JR: visual indicators of what you can press, vs focus indicators (have a section on that) 18:26:06 JA: are when entering GUI^2 phase? 18:26:18 oops was JB 18:26:37 AC: Not getting more complex, just that keyboard access is getting harder 18:26:37 s/JA/JB 18:27:02 AC: I'm having lots of problems with keyboard nav in Vista 18:27:22 JA: Another focus issue is designers not wanting focus in content... 18:27:49 JA: Because firefox has finally implemented CSS focus selector 18:28:05 JA: But authors are turning it off because they don't like the look of it 18:28:22 JA: But would like to focus on chrome first 18:28:44 AC: What's your definition of Chrome? 18:29:12 JA: Chrome is the specific UI of the application - all the stuff not in the content display. 18:29:24 AC: So its the stuff that contains the content? 18:29:42 SH: There are some overlap...icons in TABs... 18:29:52 SH: Not a clear line.... 18:30:43 SH: think of a picture, chrome is the frame, content is the picture 18:31:08 JB: how widely is term used 18:31:22 JB: How widely used is "chrome"? 18:31:27 JR: Used in IBM 18:31:35 SH: And also in MNicrosoft 18:31:52 SH: Is nice to have short handle for this stuff 18:32:04 JA: We were calling it the appliction user interface 18:32:16 AC: As long as its clear 18:32:33 JB: But "appliction user interface" seems more clear to more people 18:32:42 JA: Back to visual indicator part 18:32:50 JA: In chrome 18:33:11 JA: What kind of indicators do we need where 18:33:53 JA: In order to use Direct commands 18:34:00 JA: Can get really complicated 18:34:53 JR: Some proposed text: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008AprJun/0008.html 18:35:17 JR: 4.1.5 18:36:31 JA: Reads... 18:36:47 JB: First concern is that it doesn't include "sequential".... 18:37:04 JB: But "sequential" batches 2 things together 18:37:08 JA: How so? 18:37:34 JB: When I look at 4.1.5 and 4.1.6...both just target "Direct"... 18:37:55 JB: But "sequental" groups two things that need different tratement.... 18:38:15 JB: TABbing is highly learnable and usable 18:38:32 JB: But arrowing is different 18:39:02 q+ 18:39:33 JB: First concern is not wording but scope 18:40:04 JR: different ways of doing keyboard access, open menus - ALT 18:40:16 ... could use arrows, may be tiring 18:40:49 q+ 18:40:52 ... once in menus, could use letter command to jump to control, may be a direct command 18:41:00 AC: Wanted to support .... 18:41:13 AC: Very important to minimize physical effort 18:41:27 AC: e.g. list of two hundred countries... 18:41:48 AC: Can press "S" but then press it 15 times.... 18:42:04 q+ to explain that the issue is exactly that "there *may* be a direct command" -- but then again, there may not, because we're not proposing a requirement that there is, from what I can see 18:42:12 q- 18:42:35 AC: But sometimes quite type "Sw" to get to swaziland 18:43:06 JB: So "may" be a direct is the problem 18:44:02 JR: talking about indicators of things that are there. if there is a direct access method it should be shown. 18:44:04 JB: JR is assuming maybe there are some 18:44:10 JR: I completely agree 18:44:20 JB: Maybe we add something further up in list 18:44:38 JB: Perhaps it goes in 4.1.1 18:45:27 AC: Wonder if we can be prescriptive on numvber of keystrokes per task? 18:45:31 -AllanJ 18:45:44 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008JanMar/0052.html 18:45:49 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008JanMar/0052.html 18:45:57 (2) Ensure Keyboard Shortcuts: Any user interface "chrome" component 18:45:58 that can receive *user interface focus* using the keyboard has a 18:46:00 keyboard shortcut, unless the *operating environment* prevents this. 18:46:07 AC: Some people give up after 3. 18:46:10 +AllanJ 18:46:31 JB: That's why I think thresholds are difficult.... 18:46:46 JB: Typical studies may not look at these 18:46:59 zakim, +q 18:46:59 I see judy, AllanJ on the speaker queue 18:47:13 JB: May not look at specific hand disabilities 18:47:25 AC: But maybe could be liberal with number 18:47:31 q+ 18:47:46 s/not look/not have looked 18:47:50 q- 18:47:54 AC: Then 8 rules out 15 for ex. 18:48:13 JA: Question for Sean... 18:48:27 JA: Is prescribing number of keystrokes overly prescriptive 18:48:44 JA: Then maybe JR was getting at another type of definition 18:48:57 JA: Menu items need hotkeys are indicated 18:49:16 JA: If we can say that it may solve Judy's question 18:49:29 AC: Can it also be expressed as number per hierarchy 18:49:45 SH: Uncomfortable with a particular number 18:50:03 SH: I'm also concerned about the very dynamic nature of today;s interfaces 18:50:11 SH: And what is a step etc. 18:50:42 JB: Jim you were saying if each step down had an indicator allowing you to get down 18:50:51 zakim, -q 18:50:51 I see Jan on the speaker queue 18:51:02 ack jan 18:51:06 Jan> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008JanMar/0052.html 18:51:08 (2) Ensure Keyboard Shortcuts: Any user interface "chrome" component 18:51:09 that can receive *user interface focus* using the keyboard has a 18:51:11 keyboard shortcut, unless the *operating environment* prevents this. 18:51:55 JR: last clause because of mobile devices. 18:52:00 SH: Not going to work 18:52:08 SH: OK for static things 18:52:23 zakim, +q 18:52:23 I see AllanJ on the speaker queue 18:52:47 SH: So couldn't be an abosulte rule 18:53:35 AC: And so it may not need to be a key you know.... 18:54:29 AC: e.g. Page up looping around to last .... 18:55:10 AC: Persons knowledge of tool is really important...techs for using controls need to be well known and documented and consistently documented 18:55:31 JA: Wanted to get back to dynamic options... 18:56:18 JA: Couldn't letters be dynamically assigned on the fly 18:56:45 SH: may or may not be possible...we tend not to do that if we can't put on the same keys each time... 18:56:59 SH: Does not allow "muscle memory",... 18:57:13 q- 18:57:37 zakim, -q 18:57:37 I see no one on the speaker queue 18:57:39 JA: Some lanugage other than "static menus" and "dynamic menus" ? 18:58:00 SH: Yes tried to come up with something for TEITAC...will sendd 18:58:52 AC: When options are dynamic and it's not possible to assign keys there might be other ways ... 18:59:07 AC: Like alphabetical or using arrow keys to go up down level etc 18:59:23 JB: Understand role of muscle memory 19:00:02 JA: OK please send items to the list 19:00:47 Action JA: Review JR's definition of "Ensure Keyboard Shortcuts" and will add in something about static/dynamic 19:00:55 JA: Next week 19:01:13 JA: Need to review ARIA doc and User Agent guidelines 19:01:21 JB: Regrets from me next week 19:01:32 JB: Charter discussion needed 19:02:15 JB: Not sure the TEITAC things will help 19:02:29 SH: I know exactly the msg I'm thinking of 19:02:40 JA: I want this keyboard stuff to continue on list 19:02:55 JA: My concern is that ARIA stuff might go 2 wks 19:03:40 JA: THere is some keyboard stuff in WAI ARIA ... 19:03:51 -Sean 19:03:53 -Cantor 19:03:54 -Judy 19:14:03 action all: review http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-UAAG20-20080312/#principle-AT-access for next week 19:14:52 -AllanJ 19:14:54 -Jan 19:14:54 WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has ended 19:14:55 Attendees were Cantor, Judy, Jan, AllanJ, Sean_Hayes, Sean 19:15:06 rrsagent, set logs public 19:15:20 rrsagent, make minutes 19:15:20 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/04/10-ua-minutes.html AllanJ 19:15:34 rrsagent, bye 19:15:34 I see 3 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2008/04/10-ua-actions.rdf : 19:15:34 ACTION: JB to Contact Apple about keyboard operability definitions [1] 19:15:34 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/04/10-ua-irc#T18-21-31 19:15:34 ACTION: JA to Review JR's definition of "Ensure Keyboard Shortcuts" and will add in something about static/dynamic [2] 19:15:34 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/04/10-ua-irc#T19-00-47 19:15:34 ACTION: all to review http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-UAAG20-20080312/#principle-AT-access for next week [3] 19:15:34 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/04/10-ua-irc#T19-14-03