IRC log of ua on 2008-04-10

Timestamps are in UTC.

17:45:33 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #ua
17:45:33 [RRSAgent]
logging to
17:45:47 [Jan]
Zakim, this will be UAWG
17:45:47 [Zakim]
ok, Jan; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start 45 minutes ago
17:45:55 [Jan]
Meeting: WAI UA
17:46:02 [Jan]
Scribe: Jan
17:46:07 [Jan]
Chair: Jim Allan
17:46:30 [Jan]
Regrets: Gregory R., Kelly F.
17:47:15 [Jan]
18:01:17 [judy]
judy has joined #ua
18:01:21 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started
18:01:25 [Zakim]
18:01:28 [Zakim]
18:01:29 [judy]
zakim, code?
18:01:29 [Zakim]
the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+ tel:+44.117.370.6152), judy
18:01:51 [Zakim]
18:01:54 [judy]
zakim, who's here?
18:01:54 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Cantor, ??P6, Judy
18:01:56 [Zakim]
On IRC I see judy, RRSAgent, Zakim, AllanJ, Jan
18:02:05 [Jan]
zakim, ??P6 is really Jan
18:02:05 [Zakim]
+Jan; got it
18:02:10 [Zakim]
+ +1.512.206.aaaa
18:02:34 [Jan]
zakim, +1.512.206.aaaa is really Jan
18:02:34 [Zakim]
+Jan; got it
18:02:46 [Jan]
zakim, +1.512.206.aaaa is really AllanJ
18:02:46 [Zakim]
sorry, Jan, I do not recognize a party named '+1.512.206.aaaa'
18:03:54 [AllanJ]
zakim, who's here?
18:03:54 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Cantor, Jan, Judy, Jan.a
18:03:55 [Zakim]
On IRC I see judy, RRSAgent, Zakim, AllanJ, Jan
18:04:07 [Jan]
zakim, Jan.a is really AllanJ
18:04:07 [Zakim]
+AllanJ; got it
18:06:05 [Zakim]
18:06:56 [Jan]
JB: Who was on call last week?
18:07:04 [Jan]
JR: Sean Hayes
18:07:05 [Jan]
Kelly Ford
18:07:07 [Jan]
Alan Cantor
18:07:09 [Jan]
Jan Richards
18:07:10 [Jan]
Gregory Rosmaita
18:07:27 [Jan]
Topic: 1. Continue Keyboard Access discussion
18:07:36 [AllanJ]
18:08:25 [Jan]
JA: So can we put these in our glossary?
18:08:40 [Jan]
JB: Yes if vetted
18:10:02 [Jan]
JR: Some terms used in 4.1 discussion
18:10:12 [Jan]
JA: Reads
18:13:43 [Jan]
SH: Sounded ok though accelerator keys may not be quite right
18:14:20 [Jan]
JB: Also I have contacted a person at Apple and ther may be interest in bringing someone in who works with keyboarding issues.
18:14:35 [Jan]
JB: Are these defintions sufficiently cross-platform?
18:14:54 [Jan]
SH: I think terms may change slightly but general concepts ok
18:15:06 [Jan]
JA: So like "also called..."
18:15:21 [Jan]
SH: But I don't think plle uses keyboard in any fundamental way
18:15:47 [Zakim]
18:16:23 [Jan]
JR: I was trying to think of broad range including cell phones with few keys
18:16:40 [Jan]
JR: Think examples are maybe Windows specific
18:16:51 [Jan]
AC: WIndows specific
18:17:00 [Jan]
JB: OK i will send this pointer to them
18:17:11 [Jan]
JB: Might be premature to add to document yet
18:17:15 [Jan]
18:17:26 [Zakim]
+ +54558aabb
18:17:48 [Jan]
zakim, +54558aabb is really Sean
18:17:48 [Zakim]
+Sean; got it
18:18:23 [Jan]
JB: It is important to be mapping out the differences between these terms
18:18:39 [Jan]
JB: For instance sequential concept is important to me
18:19:23 [Jan]
JB: Many people seem to think its no problem to have many many arrowing actions to operate a menu etc
18:19:58 [Jan]
AC: So two issues...1. how much is too much, 2nd is visibility issue - what things look like when they ahve focus
18:20:20 [Jan]
18:20:47 [Jan]
AC: Becoming increasingly an issue what things look like...
18:21:06 [Jan]
AC: It is my critique of this doc that there is no visual...
18:21:31 [Jan]
Action JB: Contact Apple about keyboard operability definitions
18:23:12 [Jan]
18:23:16 [Jan]
Topic: b. JR and JA attempts at requirements that include visual indicators:
18:23:38 [Jan]
AC: speaking about visual indication of where the focus is
18:23:47 [Jan]
AC: Increasingly lost in Vista and other things
18:23:57 [Jan]
AC: Some windows always appear the same
18:23:59 [AllanJ]
for reference: and
18:24:22 [Jan]
AC: Similarly when using TAB or arrows same problem
18:24:24 [Jan]
18:24:52 [Jan]
AC: These essentially break the keyboard accessibility
18:24:56 [judy]
18:25:01 [AllanJ]
+q visual indicators in content
18:25:38 [AllanJ]
JR: visual indicators of what you can press, vs focus indicators (have a section on that)
18:26:06 [Jan]
JA: are when entering GUI^2 phase?
18:26:18 [Jan]
oops was JB
18:26:37 [Jan]
AC: Not getting more complex, just that keyboard access is getting harder
18:26:37 [judy]
18:27:02 [Jan]
AC: I'm having lots of problems with keyboard nav in Vista
18:27:22 [Jan]
JA: Another focus issue is designers not wanting focus in content...
18:27:49 [Jan]
JA: Because firefox has finally implemented CSS focus selector
18:28:05 [Jan]
JA: But authors are turning it off because they don't like the look of it
18:28:22 [Jan]
JA: But would like to focus on chrome first
18:28:44 [Jan]
AC: What's your definition of Chrome?
18:29:12 [Jan]
JA: Chrome is the specific UI of the application - all the stuff not in the content display.
18:29:24 [Jan]
AC: So its the stuff that contains the content?
18:29:42 [Jan]
SH: There are some overlap...icons in TABs...
18:29:52 [Jan]
SH: Not a clear line....
18:30:43 [AllanJ]
SH: think of a picture, chrome is the frame, content is the picture
18:31:08 [AllanJ]
JB: how widely is term used
18:31:22 [Jan]
JB: How widely used is "chrome"?
18:31:27 [Jan]
JR: Used in IBM
18:31:35 [Jan]
SH: And also in MNicrosoft
18:31:52 [Jan]
SH: Is nice to have short handle for this stuff
18:32:04 [Jan]
JA: We were calling it the appliction user interface
18:32:16 [Jan]
AC: As long as its clear
18:32:33 [Jan]
JB: But "appliction user interface" seems more clear to more people
18:32:42 [Jan]
JA: Back to visual indicator part
18:32:50 [Jan]
JA: In chrome
18:33:11 [Jan]
JA: What kind of indicators do we need where
18:33:53 [Jan]
JA: In order to use Direct commands
18:34:00 [Jan]
JA: Can get really complicated
18:34:53 [Jan]
JR: Some proposed text:
18:35:17 [Jan]
JR: 4.1.5
18:36:31 [Jan]
JA: Reads...
18:36:47 [Jan]
JB: First concern is that it doesn't include "sequential"....
18:37:04 [Jan]
JB: But "sequential" batches 2 things together
18:37:08 [Jan]
JA: How so?
18:37:34 [Jan]
JB: When I look at 4.1.5 and 4.1.6...both just target "Direct"...
18:37:55 [Jan]
JB: But "sequental" groups two things that need different tratement....
18:38:15 [Jan]
JB: TABbing is highly learnable and usable
18:38:32 [Jan]
JB: But arrowing is different
18:39:02 [Jan]
18:39:33 [Jan]
JB: First concern is not wording but scope
18:40:04 [AllanJ]
JR: different ways of doing keyboard access, open menus - ALT
18:40:16 [AllanJ]
... could use arrows, may be tiring
18:40:49 [judy]
18:40:52 [AllanJ]
... once in menus, could use letter command to jump to control, may be a direct command
18:41:00 [Jan]
AC: Wanted to support ....
18:41:13 [Jan]
AC: Very important to minimize physical effort
18:41:27 [Jan]
AC: e.g. list of two hundred countries...
18:41:48 [Jan]
AC: Can press "S" but then press it 15 times....
18:42:04 [judy]
q+ to explain that the issue is exactly that "there *may* be a direct command" -- but then again, there may not, because we're not proposing a requirement that there is, from what I can see
18:42:12 [Jan]
18:42:35 [Jan]
AC: But sometimes quite type "Sw" to get to swaziland
18:43:06 [Jan]
JB: So "may" be a direct is the problem
18:44:02 [AllanJ]
JR: talking about indicators of things that are there. if there is a direct access method it should be shown.
18:44:04 [Jan]
JB: JR is assuming maybe there are some
18:44:10 [Jan]
JR: I completely agree
18:44:20 [Jan]
JB: Maybe we add something further up in list
18:44:38 [Jan]
JB: Perhaps it goes in 4.1.1
18:45:27 [Jan]
AC: Wonder if we can be prescriptive on numvber of keystrokes per task?
18:45:31 [Zakim]
18:45:44 [Jan]
18:45:49 [Jan]
18:45:57 [Jan]
(2) Ensure Keyboard Shortcuts: Any user interface "chrome" component
18:45:58 [Jan]
that can receive *user interface focus* using the keyboard has a
18:46:00 [Jan]
keyboard shortcut, unless the *operating environment* prevents this.
18:46:07 [Jan]
AC: Some people give up after 3.
18:46:10 [Zakim]
18:46:31 [Jan]
JB: That's why I think thresholds are difficult....
18:46:46 [Jan]
JB: Typical studies may not look at these
18:46:59 [AllanJ]
zakim, +q
18:46:59 [Zakim]
I see judy, AllanJ on the speaker queue
18:47:13 [Jan]
JB: May not look at specific hand disabilities
18:47:25 [Jan]
AC: But maybe could be liberal with number
18:47:31 [Jan]
18:47:46 [judy]
s/not look/not have looked
18:47:50 [judy]
18:47:54 [Jan]
AC: Then 8 rules out 15 for ex.
18:48:13 [Jan]
JA: Question for Sean...
18:48:27 [Jan]
JA: Is prescribing number of keystrokes overly prescriptive
18:48:44 [Jan]
JA: Then maybe JR was getting at another type of definition
18:48:57 [Jan]
JA: Menu items need hotkeys are indicated
18:49:16 [Jan]
JA: If we can say that it may solve Judy's question
18:49:29 [Jan]
AC: Can it also be expressed as number per hierarchy
18:49:45 [Jan]
SH: Uncomfortable with a particular number
18:50:03 [Jan]
SH: I'm also concerned about the very dynamic nature of today;s interfaces
18:50:11 [Jan]
SH: And what is a step etc.
18:50:42 [Jan]
JB: Jim you were saying if each step down had an indicator allowing you to get down
18:50:51 [AllanJ]
zakim, -q
18:50:51 [Zakim]
I see Jan on the speaker queue
18:51:02 [judy]
ack jan
18:51:06 [Jan]
18:51:08 [Jan]
<Jan>(2) Ensure Keyboard Shortcuts: Any user interface "chrome" component
18:51:09 [Jan]
that can receive *user interface focus* using the keyboard has a
18:51:11 [Jan]
keyboard shortcut, unless the *operating environment* prevents this.
18:51:55 [AllanJ]
JR: last clause because of mobile devices.
18:52:00 [Jan]
SH: Not going to work
18:52:08 [Jan]
SH: OK for static things
18:52:23 [AllanJ]
zakim, +q
18:52:23 [Zakim]
I see AllanJ on the speaker queue
18:52:47 [Jan]
SH: So couldn't be an abosulte rule
18:53:35 [Jan]
AC: And so it may not need to be a key you know....
18:54:29 [Jan]
AC: e.g. Page up looping around to last ....
18:55:10 [Jan]
AC: Persons knowledge of tool is really important...techs for using controls need to be well known and documented and consistently documented
18:55:31 [Jan]
JA: Wanted to get back to dynamic options...
18:56:18 [Jan]
JA: Couldn't letters be dynamically assigned on the fly
18:56:45 [Jan]
SH: may or may not be possible...we tend not to do that if we can't put on the same keys each time...
18:56:59 [Jan]
SH: Does not allow "muscle memory",...
18:57:11 [Jan]
SH: Since it can lead users astray
18:57:13 [Jan]
18:57:37 [AllanJ]
zakim, -q
18:57:37 [Zakim]
I see no one on the speaker queue
18:57:39 [Jan]
JA: Some lanugage other than "static menus" and "dynamic menus" ?
18:58:00 [Jan]
SH: Yes tried to come up with something for TEITAC...will sendd
18:58:52 [Jan]
AC: When options are dynamic and it's not possible to assign keys there might be other ways ...
18:59:07 [Jan]
AC: Like alphabetical or using arrow keys to go up down level etc
18:59:23 [Jan]
JB: Understand role of muscle memory
19:00:02 [Jan]
JA: OK please send items to the list
19:00:47 [Jan]
Action JA: Review JR's definition of "Ensure Keyboard Shortcuts" and will add in something about static/dynamic
19:00:55 [Jan]
JA: Next week
19:01:13 [Jan]
JA: Need to review ARIA doc and User Agent guidelines
19:01:21 [Jan]
JB: Regrets from me next week
19:01:32 [Jan]
JB: Charter discussion needed
19:02:15 [Jan]
JB: Not sure the TEITAC things will help
19:02:29 [Jan]
SH: I know exactly the msg I'm thinking of
19:02:40 [Jan]
JA: I want this keyboard stuff to continue on list
19:02:55 [Jan]
JA: My concern is that ARIA stuff might go 2 wks
19:03:40 [Jan]
JA: THere is some keyboard stuff in WAI ARIA ...
19:03:51 [Zakim]
19:03:53 [Zakim]
19:03:54 [Zakim]
19:14:03 [AllanJ]
action all: review for next week
19:14:52 [Zakim]
19:14:54 [Zakim]
19:14:54 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has ended
19:14:55 [Zakim]
Attendees were Cantor, Judy, Jan, AllanJ, Sean_Hayes, Sean
19:15:06 [AllanJ]
rrsagent, set logs public
19:15:20 [AllanJ]
rrsagent, make minutes
19:15:20 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate AllanJ
19:15:34 [AllanJ]
rrsagent, bye
19:15:34 [RRSAgent]
I see 3 open action items saved in :
19:15:34 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: JB to Contact Apple about keyboard operability definitions [1]
19:15:34 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
19:15:34 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: JA to Review JR's definition of "Ensure Keyboard Shortcuts" and will add in something about static/dynamic [2]
19:15:34 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
19:15:34 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: all to review for next week [3]
19:15:34 [RRSAgent]
recorded in