IRC log of ua on 2008-04-10

Timestamps are in UTC.

17:45:33 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #ua

17:45:33 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/04/10-ua-irc

17:45:47 [Jan]

Zakim, this will be UAWG

17:45:47 [Zakim]

ok, Jan; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start 45 minutes ago

17:45:55 [Jan]

Meeting: WAI UA

17:46:02 [Jan]

Scribe: Jan

17:46:07 [Jan]

Chair: Jim Allan

17:46:30 [Jan]

Regrets: Gregory R., Kelly F.

17:47:15 [Jan]

Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008AprJun/0026.html

18:01:17 [judy]

judy has joined #ua

18:01:21 [Zakim]

WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started

18:01:25 [Zakim]

+??P6

18:01:28 [Zakim]

+Cantor

18:01:29 [judy]

zakim, code?

18:01:29 [Zakim]

the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), judy

18:01:51 [Zakim]

+Judy

18:01:54 [judy]

zakim, who's here?

18:01:54 [Zakim]

On the phone I see Cantor, ??P6, Judy

18:01:56 [Zakim]

On IRC I see judy, RRSAgent, Zakim, AllanJ, Jan

18:02:05 [Jan]

zakim, ??P6 is really Jan

18:02:05 [Zakim]

+Jan; got it

18:02:10 [Zakim]

+ +1.512.206.aaaa

18:02:34 [Jan]

zakim, +1.512.206.aaaa is really Jan

18:02:34 [Zakim]

+Jan; got it

18:02:46 [Jan]

zakim, +1.512.206.aaaa is really AllanJ

18:02:46 [Zakim]

sorry, Jan, I do not recognize a party named '+1.512.206.aaaa'

18:03:54 [AllanJ]

zakim, who's here?

18:03:54 [Zakim]

On the phone I see Cantor, Jan, Judy, Jan.a

18:03:55 [Zakim]

On IRC I see judy, RRSAgent, Zakim, AllanJ, Jan

18:04:07 [Jan]

zakim, Jan.a is really AllanJ

18:04:07 [Zakim]

+AllanJ; got it

18:06:05 [Zakim]

+Sean_Hayes

18:06:56 [Jan]

JB: Who was on call last week?

18:07:04 [Jan]

JR: Sean Hayes

18:07:05 [Jan]

Kelly Ford

18:07:07 [Jan]

Alan Cantor

18:07:09 [Jan]

Jan Richards

18:07:10 [Jan]

Gregory Rosmaita

18:07:27 [Jan]

Topic: 1. Continue Keyboard Access discussion

18:07:36 [AllanJ]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008AprJun/0004.html

18:08:25 [Jan]

JA: So can we put these in our glossary?

18:08:40 [Jan]

JB: Yes if vetted

18:10:02 [Jan]

JR: Some terms used in 4.1 discussion

18:10:12 [Jan]

JA: Reads http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008AprJun/0004.html

18:13:43 [Jan]

SH: Sounded ok though accelerator keys may not be quite right

18:14:20 [Jan]

JB: Also I have contacted a person at Apple and ther may be interest in bringing someone in who works with keyboarding issues.

18:14:35 [Jan]

JB: Are these defintions sufficiently cross-platform?

18:14:54 [Jan]

SH: I think terms may change slightly but general concepts ok

18:15:06 [Jan]

JA: So like "also called..."

18:15:21 [Jan]

SH: But I don't think plle uses keyboard in any fundamental way

18:15:47 [Zakim]

-Sean_Hayes

18:16:23 [Jan]

JR: I was trying to think of broad range including cell phones with few keys

18:16:40 [Jan]

JR: Think examples are maybe Windows specific

18:16:51 [Jan]

AC: WIndows specific

18:17:00 [Jan]

JB: OK i will send this pointer to them

18:17:11 [Jan]

JB: Might be premature to add to document yet

18:17:15 [Jan]

JA: OK

18:17:26 [Zakim]

+ +54558aabb

18:17:48 [Jan]

zakim, +54558aabb is really Sean

18:17:48 [Zakim]

+Sean; got it

18:18:23 [Jan]

JB: It is important to be mapping out the differences between these terms

18:18:39 [Jan]

JB: For instance sequential concept is important to me

18:19:23 [Jan]

JB: Many people seem to think its no problem to have many many arrowing actions to operate a menu etc

18:19:58 [Jan]

AC: So two issues...1. how much is too much, 2nd is visibility issue - what things look like when they ahve focus

18:20:20 [Jan]

q+

18:20:47 [Jan]

AC: Becoming increasingly an issue what things look like...

18:21:06 [Jan]

AC: It is my critique of this doc that there is no visual...

18:21:31 [Jan]

Action JB: Contact Apple about keyboard operability definitions

18:23:12 [Jan]

q-

18:23:16 [Jan]

Topic: b. JR and JA attempts at requirements that include visual indicators:

18:23:38 [Jan]

AC: speaking about visual indication of where the focus is

18:23:47 [Jan]

AC: Increasingly lost in Vista and other things

18:23:57 [Jan]

AC: Some windows always appear the same

18:23:59 [AllanJ]

for reference: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008JanMar/0052.html and http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008JanMar/0053.html

18:24:22 [Jan]

AC: Similarly when using TAB or arrows same problem

18:24:24 [Jan]

q+

18:24:52 [Jan]

AC: These essentially break the keyboard accessibility

18:24:56 [judy]

q+

18:25:01 [AllanJ]

+q visual indicators in content

18:25:38 [AllanJ]

JR: visual indicators of what you can press, vs focus indicators (have a section on that)

18:26:06 [Jan]

JA: are when entering GUI^2 phase?

18:26:18 [Jan]

oops was JB

18:26:37 [Jan]

AC: Not getting more complex, just that keyboard access is getting harder

18:26:37 [judy]

s/JA/JB

18:27:02 [Jan]

AC: I'm having lots of problems with keyboard nav in Vista

18:27:22 [Jan]

JA: Another focus issue is designers not wanting focus in content...

18:27:49 [Jan]

JA: Because firefox has finally implemented CSS focus selector

18:28:05 [Jan]

JA: But authors are turning it off because they don't like the look of it

18:28:22 [Jan]

JA: But would like to focus on chrome first

18:28:44 [Jan]

AC: What's your definition of Chrome?

18:29:12 [Jan]

JA: Chrome is the specific UI of the application - all the stuff not in the content display.

18:29:24 [Jan]

AC: So its the stuff that contains the content?

18:29:42 [Jan]

SH: There are some overlap...icons in TABs...

18:29:52 [Jan]

SH: Not a clear line....

18:30:43 [AllanJ]

SH: think of a picture, chrome is the frame, content is the picture

18:31:08 [AllanJ]

JB: how widely is term used

18:31:22 [Jan]

JB: How widely used is "chrome"?

18:31:27 [Jan]

JR: Used in IBM

18:31:35 [Jan]

SH: And also in MNicrosoft

18:31:52 [Jan]

SH: Is nice to have short handle for this stuff

18:32:04 [Jan]

JA: We were calling it the appliction user interface

18:32:16 [Jan]

AC: As long as its clear

18:32:33 [Jan]

JB: But "appliction user interface" seems more clear to more people

18:32:42 [Jan]

JA: Back to visual indicator part

18:32:50 [Jan]

JA: In chrome

18:33:11 [Jan]

JA: What kind of indicators do we need where

18:33:53 [Jan]

JA: In order to use Direct commands

18:34:00 [Jan]

JA: Can get really complicated

18:34:53 [Jan]

JR: Some proposed text: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008AprJun/0008.html

18:35:17 [Jan]

JR: 4.1.5

18:36:31 [Jan]

JA: Reads...

18:36:47 [Jan]

JB: First concern is that it doesn't include "sequential"....

18:37:04 [Jan]

JB: But "sequential" batches 2 things together

18:37:08 [Jan]

JA: How so?

18:37:34 [Jan]

JB: When I look at 4.1.5 and 4.1.6...both just target "Direct"...

18:37:55 [Jan]

JB: But "sequental" groups two things that need different tratement....

18:38:15 [Jan]

JB: TABbing is highly learnable and usable

18:38:32 [Jan]

JB: But arrowing is different

18:39:02 [Jan]

q+

18:39:33 [Jan]

JB: First concern is not wording but scope

18:40:04 [AllanJ]

JR: different ways of doing keyboard access, open menus - ALT

18:40:16 [AllanJ]

... could use arrows, may be tiring

18:40:49 [judy]

q+

18:40:52 [AllanJ]

... once in menus, could use letter command to jump to control, may be a direct command

18:41:00 [Jan]

AC: Wanted to support ....

18:41:13 [Jan]

AC: Very important to minimize physical effort

18:41:27 [Jan]

AC: e.g. list of two hundred countries...

18:41:48 [Jan]

AC: Can press "S" but then press it 15 times....

18:42:04 [judy]

q+ to explain that the issue is exactly that "there *may* be a direct command" -- but then again, there may not, because we're not proposing a requirement that there is, from what I can see

18:42:12 [Jan]

q-

18:42:35 [Jan]

AC: But sometimes quite type "Sw" to get to swaziland

18:43:06 [Jan]

JB: So "may" be a direct is the problem

18:44:02 [AllanJ]

JR: talking about indicators of things that are there. if there is a direct access method it should be shown.

18:44:04 [Jan]

JB: JR is assuming maybe there are some

18:44:10 [Jan]

JR: I completely agree

18:44:20 [Jan]

JB: Maybe we add something further up in list

18:44:38 [Jan]

JB: Perhaps it goes in 4.1.1

18:45:27 [Jan]

AC: Wonder if we can be prescriptive on numvber of keystrokes per task?

18:45:31 [Zakim]

-AllanJ

18:45:44 [Jan]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008JanMar/0052.html

18:45:49 [Jan]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008JanMar/0052.html

18:45:57 [Jan]

(2) Ensure Keyboard Shortcuts: Any user interface "chrome" component

18:45:58 [Jan]

that can receive *user interface focus* using the keyboard has a

18:46:00 [Jan]

keyboard shortcut, unless the *operating environment* prevents this.

18:46:07 [Jan]

AC: Some people give up after 3.

18:46:10 [Zakim]

+AllanJ

18:46:31 [Jan]

JB: That's why I think thresholds are difficult....

18:46:46 [Jan]

JB: Typical studies may not look at these

18:46:59 [AllanJ]

zakim, +q

18:46:59 [Zakim]

I see judy, AllanJ on the speaker queue

18:47:13 [Jan]

JB: May not look at specific hand disabilities

18:47:25 [Jan]

AC: But maybe could be liberal with number

18:47:31 [Jan]

q+

18:47:46 [judy]

s/not look/not have looked

18:47:50 [judy]

q-

18:47:54 [Jan]

AC: Then 8 rules out 15 for ex.

18:48:13 [Jan]

JA: Question for Sean...

18:48:27 [Jan]

JA: Is prescribing number of keystrokes overly prescriptive

18:48:44 [Jan]

JA: Then maybe JR was getting at another type of definition

18:48:57 [Jan]

JA: Menu items need hotkeys are indicated

18:49:16 [Jan]

JA: If we can say that it may solve Judy's question

18:49:29 [Jan]

AC: Can it also be expressed as number per hierarchy

18:49:45 [Jan]

SH: Uncomfortable with a particular number

18:50:03 [Jan]

SH: I'm also concerned about the very dynamic nature of today;s interfaces

18:50:11 [Jan]

SH: And what is a step etc.

18:50:42 [Jan]

JB: Jim you were saying if each step down had an indicator allowing you to get down

18:50:51 [AllanJ]

zakim, -q

18:50:51 [Zakim]

I see Jan on the speaker queue

18:51:02 [judy]

ack jan

18:51:06 [Jan]

Jan>http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008JanMar/0052.html

18:51:08 [Jan]

<Jan>(2) Ensure Keyboard Shortcuts: Any user interface "chrome" component

18:51:09 [Jan]

that can receive *user interface focus* using the keyboard has a

18:51:11 [Jan]

keyboard shortcut, unless the *operating environment* prevents this.

18:51:55 [AllanJ]

JR: last clause because of mobile devices.

18:52:00 [Jan]

SH: Not going to work

18:52:08 [Jan]

SH: OK for static things

18:52:23 [AllanJ]

zakim, +q

18:52:23 [Zakim]

I see AllanJ on the speaker queue

18:52:47 [Jan]

SH: So couldn't be an abosulte rule

18:53:35 [Jan]

AC: And so it may not need to be a key you know....

18:54:29 [Jan]

AC: e.g. Page up looping around to last ....

18:55:10 [Jan]

AC: Persons knowledge of tool is really important...techs for using controls need to be well known and documented and consistently documented

18:55:31 [Jan]

JA: Wanted to get back to dynamic options...

18:56:18 [Jan]

JA: Couldn't letters be dynamically assigned on the fly

18:56:45 [Jan]

SH: may or may not be possible...we tend not to do that if we can't put on the same keys each time...

18:56:59 [Jan]

SH: Does not allow "muscle memory",...

18:57:11 [Jan]

SH: Since it can lead users astray

18:57:13 [Jan]

q-

18:57:37 [AllanJ]

zakim, -q

18:57:37 [Zakim]

I see no one on the speaker queue

18:57:39 [Jan]

JA: Some lanugage other than "static menus" and "dynamic menus" ?

18:58:00 [Jan]

SH: Yes tried to come up with something for TEITAC...will sendd

18:58:52 [Jan]

AC: When options are dynamic and it's not possible to assign keys there might be other ways ...

18:59:07 [Jan]

AC: Like alphabetical or using arrow keys to go up down level etc

18:59:23 [Jan]

JB: Understand role of muscle memory

19:00:02 [Jan]

JA: OK please send items to the list

19:00:47 [Jan]

Action JA: Review JR's definition of "Ensure Keyboard Shortcuts" and will add in something about static/dynamic

19:00:55 [Jan]

JA: Next week

19:01:13 [Jan]

JA: Need to review ARIA doc and User Agent guidelines

19:01:21 [Jan]

JB: Regrets from me next week

19:01:32 [Jan]

JB: Charter discussion needed

19:02:15 [Jan]

JB: Not sure the TEITAC things will help

19:02:29 [Jan]

SH: I know exactly the msg I'm thinking of

19:02:40 [Jan]

JA: I want this keyboard stuff to continue on list

19:02:55 [Jan]

JA: My concern is that ARIA stuff might go 2 wks

19:03:40 [Jan]

JA: THere is some keyboard stuff in WAI ARIA ...

19:03:51 [Zakim]

-Sean

19:03:53 [Zakim]

-Cantor

19:03:54 [Zakim]

-Judy

19:14:03 [AllanJ]

action all: review http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-UAAG20-20080312/#principle-AT-access for next week

19:14:52 [Zakim]

-AllanJ

19:14:54 [Zakim]

-Jan

19:14:54 [Zakim]

WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has ended

19:14:55 [Zakim]

Attendees were Cantor, Judy, Jan, AllanJ, Sean_Hayes, Sean

19:15:06 [AllanJ]

rrsagent, set logs public

19:15:20 [AllanJ]

rrsagent, make minutes

19:15:20 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/04/10-ua-minutes.html AllanJ

19:15:34 [AllanJ]

rrsagent, bye

19:15:34 [RRSAgent]

I see 3 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2008/04/10-ua-actions.rdf :

19:15:34 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: JB to Contact Apple about keyboard operability definitions [1]

19:15:34 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/04/10-ua-irc#T18-21-31

19:15:34 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: JA to Review JR's definition of "Ensure Keyboard Shortcuts" and will add in something about static/dynamic [2]

19:15:34 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/04/10-ua-irc#T19-00-47

19:15:34 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: all to review http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-UAAG20-20080312/#principle-AT-access for next week [3]

19:15:34 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/04/10-ua-irc#T19-14-03