15:03:01 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag
15:03:01 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/04/04-wai-wcag-irc
15:03:16 <MichaelC> rrsagent, make logs member
15:03:21 <MichaelC> meeting: WCAG planning
15:03:47 <MichaelC> present: Loretta_Guarino_Reid, Michael_Cooper, Shadi_Abou-Zahra, Christophe_Strobbe
15:03:57 <MichaelC> regrets: Gregg_Vanderheiden, Carlos_Valasquez
15:04:03 <MichaelC> scribe: MichaelC
15:04:23 <MichaelC> present- Carlos_Valasquez
15:04:30 <Zakim> +Ben
15:04:35 <MichaelC> present+ Carlos_Valasco
15:04:40 <MichaelC> present+ Ben_Caldwell
15:06:40 <MichaelC> saz: EC funded BenToWeb to work on benchmarking tools
15:07:26 <MichaelC> they have been working with us on test samples
15:07:43 <MichaelC> -> Status update from Christophe  http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2008JanMar/0046.html
15:07:58 <shadi> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/tests/
15:08:31 <shadi> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/tests/process
15:08:46 <MichaelC> -> Repository of tests http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/tests/
15:09:05 <MichaelC> -> TSDTF process http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/tests/process
15:10:08 <MichaelC> spent time developing tests following these procedures
15:10:13 <shadi> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/tests/usingTCDL
15:10:18 <MichaelC> Also worked on metadata for tests
15:10:35 <MichaelC> e.g., whether the test a passing or failing condition etc.
15:10:52 <MichaelC> -> Test Samples Metadata http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/tests/usingTCDL
15:11:30 <shadi> http://www.w3.org/2006/tsdtf/TestSampleStatusList
15:11:50 <MichaelC> -> Wiki repository of test samples http://www.w3.org/2006/tsdtf/TestSampleStatusList
15:13:23 <MichaelC> have explored other options for the test harness
15:13:31 <MichaelC> also looked at Mobile Web test harnes
15:13:36 <MichaelC> s/harnes/harness
15:13:56 <MichaelC> One issue has been that since WCAG was changing, hard to keep up
15:14:04 <MichaelC> We have a repository of unreviewed test samples
15:14:09 <MichaelC> and WCAG seems to be stabalizing
15:14:24 <MichaelC> Do we want to keep structure of task force or look at other options for doing this work?
15:14:36 <MichaelC> Note BenToWeb project has ended, so reduced participation from that area
15:14:53 <MichaelC> Also, since BenToWeb people submitted tests, didn't think appropriate for them to review them
15:15:29 <MichaelC> cs: There are ~200 test samples, mostly mapped to May 2007 WD
15:15:36 <MichaelC> and some mapped to April 2006 WD
15:15:45 <MichaelC> There are also ~400 waiting to be uploaded
15:15:49 <MichaelC> also mapped to May 2007 WD
15:16:01 <MichaelC> so total of 609 in various states
15:16:15 <MichaelC> bc: relationship of those test samples to the techniques?
15:16:27 <MichaelC> cs: there is a mapping from test case to techniques
15:16:38 <MichaelC> don't have test cases for all techniques
15:16:45 <MichaelC> 239 test cases don't map to any techniques
15:17:42 <MichaelC> some of these were created before techniques were created
15:17:52 <MichaelC> many of them of failure techniques
15:18:39 <MichaelC> lgr: these test cases may be what we need for Accessibility Support evidence
15:19:22 <MichaelC> -> Message about SC without failure techniques http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-wai-ert-tsdtf/2007Dec/0019.html
15:20:18 <Ben> Ben has joined #wai-wcag
15:20:34 <MichaelC> bc: might be able to use test cases as well as other things for the data gathering
15:20:49 <MichaelC> mc: test cases that state they should pass can be run through UAs to see if they do in fact
15:21:15 <MichaelC> cs: more than half of the test cases are for failure conditions
15:21:47 <MichaelC> don't know about relationship to accessibility support - some of this was developed when we had the baseline concept
15:22:40 <MichaelC> lgr: this might be only a starting point, then, but a huge start
15:22:59 <MichaelC> we're still trying to figure out to gather, record, and report on data about accessibility support
15:23:14 <shadi> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/tests/usingTCDL
15:23:16 <Zakim> -Ben
15:23:17 <Zakim> +??P21
15:23:36 <Ben> zakim, ??P21 is Ben
15:23:36 <Zakim> +Ben; got it
15:24:07 <MichaelC> saz: there's a lot of metadata availalbe to help
15:24:21 <MichaelC> lgr: need info about combinations of browsers and AT
15:24:34 <MichaelC> wouldn't necessarily capture with test file, but would be part of overall db
15:24:47 <MichaelC> cs: metadata has section for technologies used in test sample
15:24:50 <MichaelC> even specific features
15:25:11 <MichaelC> lgr: very helpful
15:26:17 <MichaelC> mc: so we've got a lot of resources
15:26:20 <MichaelC> still more to add
15:26:24 <MichaelC> and need to review/approve it all
15:26:32 <MichaelC> can use for accessibility support evidnece
15:27:17 <MichaelC> lgr: need to get them in W3C space
15:27:23 <MichaelC> and worry about persistence of resource
15:27:30 <MichaelC> saz: can post easily
15:27:39 <MichaelC> but what do we do with it from there
15:27:50 <MichaelC> would like a harness that's easier than a wiki
15:28:24 <MichaelC> that's a short-term project
15:28:32 <MichaelC> validating the test samples would be an ongoing project
15:28:42 <MichaelC> especially since we want people to submit test cases
15:29:00 <MichaelC> cs: (noted earlier most of the test cases are in English)
15:29:06 <MichaelC> lgr: would like test cases in other languages
15:29:26 <MichaelC> cs: some of the unsubmitted test cases still under review for certain structural things
15:31:04 <MichaelC> mc: ask about level of particpation in TSDTF given BenToWeb closed
15:31:15 <MichaelC> saz: now have only 3 regular contributors
15:31:18 <shadi> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/2006/tests/tests-tf
15:31:40 <MichaelC> -> TSDTF Work Statement http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/2006/tests/tests-tf
15:32:08 <MichaelC> Carlos Iglesias, Christophe Strobbe, Tim Boland are the main contributors
15:32:24 <MichaelC> Carlos Velasco, Shadi Abou-Zahra, Michael Cooper are peripheral contributors
15:33:07 <MichaelC> We're hoping as WCAG stabailizes that some WCAG resources can come into this work
15:33:56 <MichaelC> mc: Is it better to get people from WCAG WG into TF, or move TF into WCAG WG?
15:34:57 <MichaelC> saz: would be ok to dissolve TF and move to WCAG WG
15:35:05 <MichaelC> but also ok to work separately
15:35:24 <MichaelC> lgr: This is a big chunk, and there are other big chunks
15:35:34 <MichaelC> so the WG will be busy
15:35:53 <MichaelC> What is procedure if WG reviews test cases and rejects some?
15:36:03 <shadi> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/tests/process
15:36:20 <MichaelC> saz: The review process is spelled out in the process document
15:36:31 <MichaelC> though it doesn't prescribe what WCAG WG would do
15:37:05 <MichaelC> substantial fixes would mean test case sent back to submitter, asked to edit and resubmit
15:38:05 <MichaelC> lgr: who are the submitters?
15:38:27 <MichaelC> saz: BenToWeb tests submitted in bulk, but also anticipate individual submissions in the future
15:39:01 <MichaelC> The BenToWeb tests all go to an email address, there will be someone at the other end
15:41:23 <MichaelC> mc: Exploring structure - TSDTF working separately has allowed focus, but low on radar of WCAG WG; within WCAG WG would be higher radar but harder to organize priorities
15:41:31 <MichaelC> bc: always a resource issue
15:42:26 <MichaelC> lgr: there has been some exploration of resources but unsure of tieline
15:43:12 <MichaelC> mc: would review of tests be doable during CR phase?
15:43:34 <MichaelC> lgr: hopefully; issues about availability of WG members to work on this
15:44:19 <MichaelC> saz: Joint with ERTWG means we have a different skillset available
15:45:31 <MichaelC> structural reviews can be done outside WCAG WG, just need a content review
15:46:06 <MichaelC> bc: ways to tie test samples to existing techniques?
15:47:47 <MichaelC> saz: would be useful to share example code etc.
15:48:02 <MichaelC> mc: should be able to automate references from techniques to applicable tests
15:48:35 <MichaelC> bc: issues around tests in various places that aren't clearly tied to techniques
15:48:59 <MichaelC> also there are tests that were published but not approved by WG, but URI persistence an issue
15:49:17 <MichaelC> cs: task force following a rule that every test sample must map to a technique
15:51:06 <MichaelC> -> Mapping to techniques and failures http://canada.esat.kuleuven.be/bentoweb/tsdtf/xhtml/index.html
15:51:20 <MichaelC> bc: concern about unapproved tests
15:51:29 <MichaelC> mc: TSDTF requires WCAG WG approval
15:51:35 <MichaelC> lgr: need a plan for WCAG review
15:52:07 <MichaelC> saz: need to get through the structural review stages as well
15:52:44 <MichaelC> working within WCAG WG would simplify procedure by a step
15:53:06 <MichaelC> staying in Task Force, we need to collect resources
15:54:02 <MichaelC> lgr: we need to do something about accessibility supported, undrafted sufficient techniques, reviewing implementations, respoinding to comments on implementations
15:54:29 <MichaelC> these are competing priorities
15:55:10 <MichaelC> what happens after WG approval?
15:55:44 <MichaelC> saz: we're not even really that far yet
15:57:36 <MichaelC> mc: Let's check in in two weeks
15:57:46 <MichaelC> MC and SAZ to float things around meanwhile
15:59:54 <MichaelC> Continue this discusison in the 25 April meeting (regrets: LGR)
16:00:25 <Zakim> -Shadi
16:00:26 <Zakim> -Christophe_Strobbe
16:00:27 <shadi> shadi has left #wai-wcag
16:00:29 <Christophe> Christophe has left #wai-wcag
16:15:55 <Zakim> -Cooper
16:15:56 <Zakim> -Ben
16:16:07 <Zakim> -Lgr
16:16:08 <Zakim> WAI_WCAG(plan)11:00AM has ended
16:16:09 <Zakim> Attendees were Cooper, Lgr, Shadi, Christophe_Strobbe, Ben
16:17:36 <MichaelC> scribeOptions: -scribeOnly -implicitContinuations -final
16:17:43 <MichaelC> rrsagent, make log world
16:17:48 <MichaelC> rrsagent, make minutes
16:17:48 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/04/04-wai-wcag-minutes.html MichaelC
16:18:07 <Zakim> Zakim has left #wai-wcag
16:19:13 <MichaelC> rrsagent, bye
16:19:13 <RRSAgent> I see no action items