IRC log of tagmem on 2008-03-20

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:50:22 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #tagmem
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16:50:31 [Zakim]: Zakim has joined #tagmem
16:50:40 [Stuart]: zakim, this will be tag
16:50:40 [Zakim]: ok, Stuart; I see TAG_Weekly()1:00PM scheduled to start in 10 minutes
16:54:30 [Zakim]: TAG_Weekly()1:00PM has now started
16:54:37 [Zakim]: +Raman
16:55:09 [Stuart]: Wow raman... is your clock running fast today?
16:55:38 [Zakim]: +??P2
16:55:42 [raman]: Stuart -- not sure what the "mitigates " bit in the above meant. I'm getting the draft out per my action --- if the TAG doesn't spend adequate time on it -- that's still a problem.
16:55:47 [Stuart]: zakim, ?? is me
16:55:47 [Zakim]: +Stuart; got it
16:56:32 [jar]: jar has joined #tagmem
16:57:21 [Zakim]: +Jonathan_Rees
16:58:13 [Zakim]: -Jonathan_Rees
16:58:31 [Stuart]: Meeting: TAG Weekly
16:58:44 [Stuart]: Chair: Stuart Williams
16:58:53 [Stuart]: Scribe: Jonathan Rees
16:59:05 [Stuart]: scribenick: jar
16:59:21 [Zakim]: +Norm
16:59:32 [Zakim]: + +1.617.253.aaaa
17:00:21 [Stuart]: zakim, +1 is jar
17:00:22 [Zakim]: +jar; got it
17:00:33 [ht]: zakim, please call ht-781
17:00:33 [Zakim]: ok, ht; the call is being made
17:00:35 [Zakim]: +Ht
17:00:51 [Stuart]: Regrets: Noah, Ashok, DanC
17:00:58 [Ashok]: Ashok has joined #tagmem
17:01:28 [Stuart]: Regrets: Noah, DaveO , DanC
17:01:36 [Zakim]: +TimBL
17:01:43 [Zakim]: +Ashok_Malhotra
17:03:24 [leobard]: leobard has joined #tagmem
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17:03:49 [leobard]: hi, joining chat for the momment, phoning in in 10 minutes...
17:04:15 [timbl_]: timbl_ has joined #tagmem
17:04:15 [jar]: stuart: we are expecting guests to talk about httpRedirections-57
17:04:54 [jar]: ... agenda accepted
17:05:26 [jar]: ... no objections or abstentions re minutes of 13 march
17:05:26 [cygri]: cygri has joined #tagmem
17:05:45 [jar]: ... next meeting 27 march. ashok to scribe
17:06:05 [jar]: ... noah regrets for 27 march
17:06:45 [Zakim]: + +049303466aabb
17:06:57 [jar]: ... approval of feb f2f minutes to be tabled pending completion of all days
17:07:30 [Stuart]: zakim, +0 is cygri
17:07:30 [Zakim]: +cygri; got it
17:07:40 [jar]: Richard Cyganiak has joined the call
17:08:04 [jar]: Leo is in IRC and is expected on the call
17:08:07 [Stuart]: topic: httpRedirections-57
17:08:33 [leobard]: whoops, calling now
17:09:33 [Zakim]: + +43.137.0aacc
17:09:50 [Stuart]: zakim, +43 is leobard
17:09:50 [Zakim]: +leobard; got it
17:09:54 [jar]: stuart: Welcome Leo
17:10:39 [jar]: ... Hoping that today, we can see clear to the end of this document
17:10:54 [jar]: ... To discuss: diagram and conneg + redirection
17:11:46 [jar]: leo: State of SWEO - finishing in 1 week, end of March. Cool URIs has been in progress for 1 year. Must be published within 1 week, if it's to be a note
17:12:10 [jar]: ... hoping for no feedback
17:12:59 [jar]: leo: We received a big review from Tim in Feb, and changed the doc. No ack yet.
17:13:13 [Stuart]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-sweo-ig/2008Mar/0052.html
17:13:56 [jar]: Tim: 16th of March...
17:15:06 [leobard]: https://gnowsis.opendfki.de/repos/gnowsis/papers/2006_11_concepturi/html/cooluris_sweo_note.html#r303gendocument
17:16:21 [jar]: leo: Tim's suggestion has been added as an alternative
17:16:32 [jar]: Tim: It's important which one you should do
17:16:54 [jar]: ... we want generic documents when appropriate, and not when not
17:17:17 [jar]: leo: Look at 4.3, second paragraph
17:17:17 [Stuart]: q?
17:18:04 [jar]: Leo: Do you suggest we remove 4.2 ?
17:18:05 [leobard]: remove 4.2?
17:18:25 [jar]: Tim: No, 4.2 is appropriate when the HTML has more information than the RDF
17:18:26 [Stuart]: Editorial question: should 4.2 have a more expansive heading than "303 URI"?
17:19:00 [jar]: ... If one is more powerful than the other, then it is a different document & must have different URI
17:19:37 [timbl_]: 303 URIs with documents with different information.
17:20:00 [jar]: ... how about "redirects to documents with different information"
17:20:18 [jar]: [scribe's possible inaccuracy in quoting tim]
17:20:53 [jar]: Tim: Probably more common is HTML automatically generated from RDF
17:21:07 [jar]: ... When RDF has been scraped, then they're clearly different
17:21:22 [jar]: ... There's nothing about CN, is there.
17:21:38 [jar]: Leo: CN near beginning, in 2.1, but not detailed
17:22:26 [leobard]: link to q - qs plz?
17:23:10 [jar]: tim: if html is from rdf, the rdf should be preferred
17:23:34 [jar]: stuart: There was a Richard/Tim exchange [in IRC]
17:23:43 [timbl_]: qs(rdf) > qs(html) if the html is generated from the html.
17:24:34 [jar]: tim: crucial point was where we changed tabulator in with firefox, which has a choice between html and rdf
17:24:53 [jar]: tim: there is a loss when you generate html from rdf
17:25:45 [jar]: tim: problems with rules like "if the client can take rdf, give it rdf" (similarly html)
17:25:46 [Stuart]: My concern is where this (qs/qc) can be fixed in time for an LC publication tomorrow and a 1 week review cycle?
17:26:02 [jar]: leo: Is this written down somewhere?
17:26:04 [jar]: tim: No
17:26:32 [timbl_]: q = qs * qc
17:26:33 [jar]: (q / qs relates to CN algorithm - quality)
17:27:33 [timbl_]: qs = the amount by whichhte qualty of this is presevced (1) or degraded (<1)
17:27:38 [jar]: (scribe having difficulty transcribing Tim)
17:27:55 [jar]: leo: Can you give example of correct server behavior?
17:28:14 [timbl_]: If the RDF is dscarped (lossily) from hte HTML, the q(rdf) < q(html)
17:28:31 [jar]: tim: Quality measure should take direction of scraping into account
17:29:22 [jar]: (Tim explaining CN quality negotiation using images as an example)
17:30:03 [jar]: s/quality negotation/quality parameters/
17:30:27 [Stuart]: q?
17:30:33 [timbl_]: http://httpd.apache.org/docs/2.0/content-negotiation.html
17:30:53 [leobard]: cygri sees a problem with server side of q-values, it seems not specified
17:30:57 [jar]: leo: The client/server quality interaction is not specified in HTTP/1.0
17:31:12 [jar]: ... Apache does a particular thing, but this seems obscure
17:31:27 [jar]: ... This presents a problem for the document
17:31:29 [Stuart]: q+ to suggest simply adding a reference to the Apache Documentation to the conneg section.
17:31:33 [jar]: ... Nothing to cite
17:31:55 [jar]: tim: Fair enough. Maybe explain what to do specifically for Apache
17:32:40 [jar]: stuart: Maybe a simple reference to apache doc would help?
17:32:44 [Stuart]: q-
17:33:24 [jar]: leo: Explain it in general terms - say that you should bias [using quality params] in the right direction?
17:33:29 [jar]: ... Point to apache as one example
17:33:37 [timbl_]: In the case in which for example an HTML file has been generated from the RDF file, then the HTML has lost some information, so the RDF should be deleivered for clients whcih accept boethr RDF and HTML with similar q levels (see HTTP sec).
17:33:47 [Stuart]: s/leo:/richard:
17:34:52 [timbl_]: In the case in which the RDF file has only a subset of the information in the HTML file, and teh client handles with, then the server should have a preference for the HTML in the content negotiation algortithm
17:35:10 [timbl_]: See for example the Apache content negotiation [ref].
17:35:59 [jar]: Tim: You can do it with typemap files, but not with multiviews. Apache bug.
17:36:38 [timbl_]: You can do this with a type-map file but not with multiviews, as there are no qs specified in the config file for multiviews
17:36:44 [leobard]: the replaced diagram is here: https://gnowsis.opendfki.de/repos/gnowsis/papers/2006_11_concepturi/html/cooluris_sweo_note.html#r303gendocument
17:36:57 [jar]: stuart: What is the effect on the diagrams of this discussion?
17:38:16 [leobard]: diagram: https://gnowsis.opendfki.de/repos/gnowsis/papers/2006_11_concepturi/html/img20071212/303conneg.png
17:38:34 [jar]: tim: It's simplistic about CN
17:39:03 [timbl_]: "application/rdf+xml wins"?
17:39:30 [jar]: richard: it should be changed
17:40:52 [jar]: raman: Can you add a pointer to the tag finding i wrote last year? [genericResources]
17:41:03 [jar]: richard: yes
17:41:28 [cygri]: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/alternatives-discovery.html
17:42:36 [jar]: raman: in the section on generic resources
17:42:56 [jar]: stuart: general agreement on switching 4.2 and 4.3
17:43:03 [leobard]: https://gnowsis.opendfki.de/repos/gnowsis/papers/2006_11_concepturi/html/cooluris_sweo_note.html#distinguishing
17:45:09 [jar]: tim: It's not a disinction between web documents and things. Web documents *are* things
17:45:12 [raman]: raman has joined #tagmem
17:45:57 [jar]: richard: but this is covered in the first sentence
17:46:16 [jar]: raman: Too vague - strike it out
17:48:11 [jar]: discussing 'err on the side of caution'
17:48:25 [Stuart]: from my POV the httpRange-14 questions was "what kinds of thing can be named with an http URI" and we said "...anything..." even in the case where there is no '#' in the URI.
17:49:19 [jar]: tim: end of 3.1 will confuse people.
17:49:58 [timbl_]: It is not necessary to make that distinction, to define from first priciples what a douemnt is or is not.
17:50:01 [jar]: ht: Agree with the goal of this section - advise people when they have a certain class of problems
17:50:39 [jar]: ... Everything would follow if section title were "URIs for things not on the web"
17:51:04 [timbl_]: You can say, "We have demonstrated how URIs can be given to things, and to the documents about those things, and how they connect".
17:51:07 [jar]: tim: Doesn't have to be "real world objects"
17:51:36 [jar]: ht: Need to judiciously change the rhetoric - we don't need to descend into argument
17:52:06 [jar]: leo: But this argument has been going on for 5 years
17:52:46 [jar]: leo: There is a problem, I have something sitting in front of me, can I return a 200 or not?
17:52:55 [jar]: ... The question [of what is an IR] matters
17:53:50 [ht]: s/leo:/richard:/
17:53:54 [ht]: s/leo:/richard:/
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17:54:43 [jar]: timbl: No one will think a telephone is a web document
17:54:59 [jar]: jar: But is a representation a web document? Or the number 3?
17:55:39 [Stuart]: jar... do you mean the number or a numeral?
17:56:09 [jar]: ht: There are clear cases and hard cases
17:56:24 [Zakim]: -cygri
17:56:32 [cygri]: seems i dropped from the call ... will rejoin
17:56:35 [raman]: lots of static on the line
17:57:05 [jar]: timbl: It's important that we not go there - questions like is 3 an IR
17:57:23 [Zakim]: +cygri
17:58:06 [leobard]: decision is needed on whether remove 3.1 or keep it
17:58:54 [jar]: timbl: Propose 3.1 be removed
17:59:09 [timbl_]: Note that URIs of people amd the documents abou them sould not be confused: For example the person Alice is described on her in an information resource, Alice's homepage. Bob may not like the look of the homepage, but fancy the person Alice
17:59:29 [timbl_]: +1 for remove 3.1
17:59:40 [ht]: I'm happy with 3.1 as it stands, with one small modification
18:00:32 [ht]: First sentence should be changed to "Above we assumed that there is a distinction between web documents and everything else"
18:00:55 [ht]: and similarly to the title of the section
18:01:10 [timbl_]: as
18:01:23 [jar]: ht: Thinks only one small change is needed - don't remove 3.1
18:01:30 [jar]: ... Only problem is "real world object"
18:01:35 [jar]: ... Summary is helpful
18:03:07 [timbl_]: Note that URIs of people amd the documents abou them sould not be confused: For example the person Alice is described on her homepage. Bob may not like the look of the homepage, but still like the person Alice.
18:03:21 [jar]: tim: "Not everything is a web document" - 303 is perfectly fine for web documents
18:04:06 [jar]: ht: Can I ask the authors, do you understand why we're opposed to setting up an opposition between web documents and real world objects?
18:04:12 [jar]: yes
18:04:41 [jar]: ht: Can you rewrite this? It's going to be too hard to redraft the paragraph on this call
18:05:01 [jar]: we've rewritten in 5 times already
18:05:07 [jar]: s/in/it
18:05:51 [jar]: s/amd/and/
18:06:32 [jar]: timbl: 303 and # work in all cases, IR and non-IR
18:07:13 [jar]: timbl: non-IR is not an interesting category
18:07:21 [timbl_]: Distinguishing between things and the web documents about them.
18:07:22 [timbl_]: We have discussed ways of giving URIs to all kinds of things,
18:07:22 [timbl_]: so that the client can find out the URIs of documents between them.
18:07:22 [timbl_]: Note that URIs of things, say people, amd the documents abou them should not be confused: For example the person Alice is described on her homepage. Bob may not like the look of the homepage, but still like the person Alice.
18:07:30 [timbl_]: --------------
18:08:25 [jar]: author: To fix this would require a lot of changes, not just here but throughout the document
18:08:30 [jar]: ... No time
18:09:43 [jar]: stuart: Let's try Henry's suggestion
18:10:08 [ht]: HST is sending Richard and Leo a suggested rewrite, copied to www-tag
18:10:20 [noah]: noah has joined #tagmem
18:10:24 [jar]: ... Tim, please review
18:10:50 [Zakim]: +[IBMCambridge]
18:10:56 [Norm]: noah, could you take a look at the minutes I sent you for review yesterday or the day before?
18:10:56 [noah]: zakim, [IBMCambridge] is me
18:10:56 [Zakim]: +noah; got it
18:10:58 [jar]: timbl: Getting the document is more important than disrupting it
18:11:12 [timbl_]: s/disrupting/perfecting/
18:11:17 [noah]: Norm - I saw you had a concern, but wasn't quite sure what it was. Let me check...
18:11:26 [jar]: stuart: Thanks for doing this. We all think it's a good document
18:11:28 [Norm]: Look for "SCRIBE NOTE TO SELF" in there :-)
18:11:44 [Zakim]: -cygri
18:11:45 [Zakim]: -leobard
18:12:19 [jar]: CURIEs
18:12:37 [Stuart]: topic: abbreviateURI-56
18:12:56 [Norm]: sorry, jar, that was for Noah :-)
18:13:18 [noah]: Norm - checking
18:13:51 [ht]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2008Mar/0069
18:14:38 [noah]: Norm - did you take the edited HTML I sent you on 2/29, or just rerun from the IRC log? Doing the latter is a real mistake. I did quite a bit of editing on a private copy of the log, then generated clean HTML. I >think< the text that's worrying you does not show up in the clean copy.
18:16:23 [jar]: i haven't been scribing. iw as talking
18:16:39 [ht]: q+ to suggest a change to point 3
18:16:43 [jar]: my question is how strongly tag should come down against union of URI and [curie]
18:16:49 [Stuart]: q?
18:16:52 [timbl_]: xml2? URI2?
18:17:25 [jar]: noah: Would you be willing to commit to there never being a new URI syntax beginning with [ ?
18:17:55 [Stuart]: noah's question is targetted on the 'stewards' of the URI spec.
18:18:11 [Stuart]: ack ht
18:18:11 [Zakim]: ht, you wanted to suggest a change to point 3
18:19:09 [jar]: ht: We're clearly talking about new context or new languages... maybe this isn't explicit enough
18:19:47 [jar]: ht: The square brackets don't address this problem. It's not up to XHTML to say that URIs don't begin with [
18:20:57 [jar]: noah: Have they redefined the syntax of URIs?
18:21:00 [ht]: s/XHTML/HTML 2 WG/
18:21:24 [timbl_]: q+
18:21:29 [Stuart]: Norm.... pointer please to the transgression?
18:21:59 [jar]: q+ to say that he thinks RDFa has been VERY careful not to allow href="[...]"
18:22:20 [timbl_]: They have not redefined URI, but they are defining a competing type which incldues URI and will only work if URI strings never start with '['
18:22:47 [jar]: raman: We need to create an environment where people can solve these problems
18:23:05 [jar]: norm: Then we should say yes
18:23:49 [Norm]: raman's x:foo example is different from javascript:void. The "x" isn't constant.
18:23:51 [jar]: tim: Precedent: transition from URI to IRI.
18:23:57 [Stuart]: see http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/syntax/#id102419
18:24:24 [Stuart]: example text is:This document is licensed under a
18:24:24 [Stuart]: <a xmlns:cclicenses="http://creativecommons.org/licenses/"
18:24:24 [Stuart]: rel="cc:license"
18:24:24 [Stuart]: href="[cclicenses:by/nc-nd/3.0/]">
18:24:24 [Stuart]: Creative Commons License
18:24:25 [Stuart]: </a>.
18:24:37 [jar]: ouch.
18:25:03 [ht]: Is that for HTML2 or XHTML 4.01?
18:25:09 [jar]: tim: There's no way URIs will start with square brackets...
18:25:40 [Stuart]: ht: don't know haven't read enought of the surrounding context... but assume RDFa in XHTML2
18:25:43 [jar]: tim: but that's not the problem. The problem is that as time goes on all URI parsers will be expected to handle these things
18:25:57 [Stuart]: q?
18:26:06 [ht]: If it's XHTML2, there's no problem -- they can define the content of href in a new language however they like
18:26:23 [ht]: the problem comes if they try to push this back into HTML4.01
18:26:31 [jar]: raman: How is this different from ability to handle new uri schemes (e.g. javascript:)?
18:26:54 [Norm]: that's not a useful distinction, ht, even if its only spec'd for xhtml2, if it's useful, it'll be back-formed into other specs
18:27:04 [jar]: (I think raman is making the same comparison I did, of [...] to a new URI scheme)
18:27:17 [jar]: ht: Browsers all already have plugin-based URI scheme handling
18:27:42 [jar]: ht: I don't think this is ready to send
18:27:42 [Norm]: <a xmlns:http="http://foo" href="[http:/bar]">bar?</a>
18:27:56 [jar]: ... I hear a repeated willingness to engage constructively
18:28:20 [noah]: IF we go down this path, I think a key question is whether we suggest that existing formats MAY or SHOULD support CURIE | URI
18:28:25 [jar]: ht: Let's ask them questions about exactly where they see this being used and where not
18:28:37 [Stuart]: q?
18:29:16 [jar]: noah: Key missing piece: we should point a direction (may, should)
18:29:56 [jar]: ht: I disagree. This is a use for new contexts/languages going forward
18:30:01 [jar]: timbl: Not realistic
18:30:10 [Norm]: +1 to timbl_
18:30:17 [jar]: timbl: bad engineering
18:30:18 [noah]: SOm Henry says "MAY
18:30:23 [Stuart]: ack jar
18:30:23 [Zakim]: jar, you wanted to say that he thinks RDFa has been VERY careful not to allow href="[...]"
18:30:28 [noah]: SOm Henry says "MAY" and Tim says "SHOULD
18:31:03 [ht]: No, Henry says MUST NOT change parsers to accept CURIEs where existing W3C specs call for URIs
18:31:33 [Norm]: Indeed, jar, 2.1 does seem to be clear along the lines you suggest
18:31:48 [noah]: Sorry to come late and then run, but I've got to go. Next week I will NOT be on the call. Please accept my regrets for that.
18:31:56 [Zakim]: -Ashok_Malhotra
18:31:57 [Zakim]: -Stuart
18:31:58 [Zakim]: -noah
18:32:02 [Zakim]: -Norm
18:32:05 [Zakim]: -Raman
18:32:09 [Norm]: noah!
18:32:10 [Zakim]: -jar
18:32:12 [ht]: ACTION: Henry S to post a redraft of comment (3) from http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2008Mar/0069 to tag@w3.org
18:32:13 [trackbot-ng]: Created ACTION-126 - S to post a redraft of comment (3) from http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2008Mar/0069 to tag@w3.org [on Henry S. Thompson - due 2008-03-27].
18:32:26 [Stuart]: jonathan... I'll help assemble the minutes.
18:32:27 [Zakim]: -TimBL
18:32:31 [Norm]: noah! noah! noah! hoping desperately to get his attention!
18:32:36 [ht]: Thanks Stuart, I was just going to ask
18:32:50 [Stuart]: rrsagent, make logs public
18:32:55 [Zakim]: -Ht
18:32:56 [Zakim]: TAG_Weekly()1:00PM has ended
18:32:58 [Zakim]: Attendees were Raman, Stuart, Jonathan_Rees, Norm, +1.617.253.aaaa, jar, Ht, TimBL, Ashok_Malhotra, +049303466aabb, cygri, +43.137.0aacc, leobard, noah
18:33:05 [Stuart]: jar... I'll do the rest.
18:33:12 [Stuart]: ttfn.
18:33:13 [jar]: thanks
18:33:30 [jar]: rrsagent, where am i
18:33:30 [RRSAgent]: I'm logging. I don't understand 'where am i', jar. Try /msg RRSAgent help
18:33:44 [Norm]: RRSAgent, pointer
18:33:44 [RRSAgent]: See http://www.w3.org/2008/03/20-tagmem-irc#T18-33-44
18:33:55 [Norm]: "pointer" is, I think, what you wanted, jar
18:34:04 [jar]: yep. tnx
18:45:35 [ht]: Jonathan, do you believe that https://gnowsis.opendfki.de/repos/gnowsis/papers/2006_11_concepturi/html/cooluris_sweo_note.html#semweb is public?
18:45:42 [ht]: Can i refer to it in email to www-tag
18:45:51 [ht]: leo, richard, you still there
18:45:52 [ht]: ?
18:45:53 [leobard]: ht: gnowsis is public
18:46:02 [leobard]: please use it to refer in email
18:46:06 [ht]: OK, stand by for my redraft of 3.1
18:46:17 [ht]: going to you and www-tag
18:46:28 [ht]: probably useless, now that I look at it, but I'm out of time
18:46:31 [ht]: sory
18:46:36 [leobard]: ok, I will work it in and then use it tomorrow
18:46:47 [leobard]: ht: this is my latest version of it:
18:47:00 [ht]: Too late, got to go
18:47:16 [leobard]: ok, see you
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20:57:59 [noah]: Norm: can you check the access privileges on the Wed. minutes you posted? Thanks.
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