14:56:31 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #swd
14:56:31 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/03/18-swd-irc
14:56:34 <TomB> rrsagent, bookmark
14:56:34 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2008/03/18-swd-irc#T14-56-34
14:56:39 <TomB> zakim, this will be swd
14:56:39 <Zakim> ok, TomB, I see SW_SWD()11:00AM already started
14:57:12 <Clay> Clay has joined #swd
14:57:14 <TomB> Meeting: SWD WG
14:57:18 <TomB> Chair: Tom
14:57:48 <TomB> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2008Mar/0060.html
14:57:55 <Zakim> +[LC]
14:57:58 <Clay> zakim, LC is Clay
14:57:58 <Zakim> +Clay; got it
14:58:00 <TomB> Previous: http://www.w3.org/2008/03/11-swd-minutes.html
14:58:28 <Zakim> +Ralph
14:58:31 <aliman> aliman has joined #swd
14:58:40 <Ralph> zakim, who's on the call?
14:58:40 <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P12, Clay, Ralph
14:58:46 <Ralph> zakim, ??p12 is Tom
14:58:52 <Zakim> +Tom; got it
14:59:52 <Antoine> Antoine has joined #swd
14:59:58 <TomB> Regrets: Elisa, Vit
15:00:12 <TomB> rrsagent, please make record public
15:00:52 <seanb> seanb has joined #swd
15:00:54 <edsu> edsu has joined #swd
15:01:20 <Zakim> +[CTIC]
15:01:26 <berrueta> zakim, [CTIC] is me
15:01:34 <Zakim> +berrueta; got it
15:01:41 <Quentin> Quentin has joined #swd
15:02:02 <Clay> Scribenick: Clay
15:02:11 <Clay> Scribe: Clay
15:02:26 <Zakim> +??P39
15:02:36 <Zakim> + +0122427aaaa
15:02:38 <Zakim> +[LC]
15:02:39 <dlrubin> dlrubin has joined #swd
15:02:42 <edsu> zakim, [LC] is edsu
15:02:45 <seanb> zakim, ??P39 is me
15:02:50 <Zakim> +??P49
15:02:58 <Zakim> +??P59
15:03:14 <Ralph> zakim, vrije is Antoine
15:03:17 <Quentin> zakim, +0122427aaaa is me
15:03:19 <Guus> Guus has joined #swd
15:03:20 <Zakim> +edsu; got it
15:03:26 <Zakim> +seanb; got it
15:03:30 <Zakim> +??P61
15:03:36 <Zakim> +[VrijeUni]
15:03:42 <Zakim> sorry, Ralph, I do not recognize a party named 'vrije'
15:03:44 <Zakim> +Quentin; got it
15:03:45 <Guus> zakim, ??P61 is me
15:03:47 <Ralph> zakim, vrije is Antoine
15:03:56 <Zakim> +Guus; got it
15:03:58 <Zakim> sorry, Ralph, I do not recognize a party named 'vrije'
15:04:05 <Ralph> zakim, Guus is really Antoine
15:04:10 <Zakim> +Antoine; got it
15:04:15 <Ralph> zakim, vrije is Guus
15:04:15 <Zakim> sorry, Ralph, I do not recognize a party named 'vrije'
15:04:18 <Ralph> zakim, vrijeuni is Guus
15:04:18 <Zakim> +Guus; got it
15:04:43 <aliman> Hi all. I'm on the call but I don't know which number I am.
15:04:54 <Clay> Topic: Admin
15:05:26 <Clay> ACTION: Chairs to draft charter extension proposal for SKOS until July 1st [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/26-swd-minutes.html#action01]
15:05:30 <Clay> --continues
15:05:35 <Zakim> +??P5
15:05:42 <Clay> ACTION: Guus to set up a poll for a meeting 6-8 May with different possible venues Amsterdam, Boston, London or Washington [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/03/11-swd-minutes.html#action02]
15:05:45 <Clay> --continues
15:06:53 <JonP> JonP has joined #swd
15:07:11 <Clay> Tom: Glitch in March 11 minutes re: pending actions not appearing in agenda or meeting minutes
15:07:35 <Clay> ... action on Guus re: ISSUE-71
15:07:48 <Clay> s/action/re: action/
15:07:53 <Zakim> +Jon_Phipps
15:08:20 <JonP> zakim, Jon_Phipps is me
15:08:20 <Zakim> +JonP; got it
15:08:20 <Clay> RESOLVED: Minutes from March 11 accepted
15:09:24 <Clay> ...action on Alistair to clarify which aspects of extension should be in scope
15:09:32 <Clay> ... not recorded as closed
15:09:52 <Clay> Topic: SKOS
15:10:05 <Clay> ACTION: Alistair and Guus to check the text in the primer on relationship between Concept Schemes and OWL Ontologies. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/01/29-swd-minutes.html#action13]
15:10:18 <Clay> --continues
15:10:33 <Clay> ACTION: Sean to propose a way to handle deprecated properties (updating RDF schema) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/12-swd-minutes.html#action06]
15:10:36 <Clay> --continues
15:10:42 <Zakim> +Ben_Adida
15:10:45 <Clay> ACTION: Ralph to check whether the common interpretation of rdfs isDefinedBy fits the reasoning that was made in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2007Oct/0141.html [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/12/18-swd-minutes.html#action10]
15:11:01 <Clay> --continues
15:11:26 <Clay> Alistair: re: SKOS-XL
15:11:34 <Ralph> zakim, seanb is really Alistair
15:11:34 <Zakim> +Alistair; got it
15:11:40 <Ralph> zakim, ??p49 is SeanB
15:11:40 <Zakim> +SeanB; got it
15:11:58 <Clay> ... suggesting that it doesn't have to be in-scope for the current document, can be done afterward
15:12:34 <Clay> Tom: feedback from ISO11642 group that would like to see this folded into the SKOS reference
15:12:50 <Ralph> zakim, ??p59 is probably dlrubin
15:12:50 <Zakim> +dlrubin?; got it
15:13:18 <Ralph> zakim, who's on the call?
15:13:18 <Zakim> On the phone I see Tom, Clay, Ralph, berrueta, Alistair, Quentin, edsu, SeanB, dlrubin?, Antoine, Guus, Margherita, JonP, Ben_Adida
15:13:20 <Clay> ... comments from Japanese colleague who needs support for Yomi transcription (alt. forms of a label in transcribed form)
15:14:06 <Clay> Alistair: possibly leave it for ISO 16642
15:14:13 <Clay> s/11642/16642/
15:14:28 <Clay> ... re Yomi: leave it to labelRelations?
15:15:56 <Clay> ... the relationship between this  class of labels and rdf literals, does what we model in this extension fit these other folks?
15:16:15 <Clay> s/rdf literals/rdf plain literals/
15:16:46 <Clay> Antoine: could we move back label relationship w/r/t SKOS-XL?
15:17:35 <Clay> ... if some people prefer to use XL, it gives freedom of choice
15:18:00 <Clay> Alistair: they're not either/or, mutually exclusive
15:18:44 <Clay> ... what's in the extension builds on the existing label relationship
15:20:28 <edsu> SKOS-XL -> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/SkosDesign/SKOS-XL
15:20:32 <Clay> Clay: using xl:prefLabel and skos:prefLabel in conjunction was a nice option
15:21:22 <Clay> ... and skos:LabelRelation
15:22:12 <Clay> ACTION: Antoine will review a list of proposals w/r/t the relationship between the existing solution and the extensioin
15:22:29 <Antoine> s/a list of/Alistair's
15:23:08 <Clay> Tom: important to decide if it's in scope or not.  Antoine was suggesting it should be in scope.
15:23:24 <Clay> Ralph: purpose of Antoine's action is to ???
15:23:53 <Clay> Antoine: it's more about possibly moving back the existing label relationship to accoomodate the functionality of the extension
15:24:07 <aliman> q+
15:24:17 <Clay> Tom: Antoine, you're suggesting that they both be seen as extensions?
15:24:19 <Ralph> s/???/decide whether Alistair's proposal should be considered for the CR draft
15:24:25 <Clay> Antoine: yes
15:25:03 <Clay> Alistair: XL was designed to possibly live in the same space as the existing solution
15:25:33 <Clay> ... if they live in the same reference the local names would have to change
15:25:50 <Clay> Tom: designed not to live in the same namespace?
15:26:21 <Clay> Alistair: if they do live in the same namespace you'd use different local names
15:27:03 <Clay> Tom: Open SKOS issues
15:27:27 <Clay> ... re: Alistair and ISSUE-40
15:27:39 <Clay> ACTION: Alistair to make a proposal for Issue 40 (Concept Coordination) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/01/29-swd-minutes.html#action09]
15:28:13 <Clay> --continues
15:28:44 <Clay> Tom: re: ISSUE-37 for Guus
15:29:04 <Clay> Alistair: thought that Guus would discuss with Sean
15:29:26 <edsu> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2008Mar/0037.html
15:29:36 <Clay> Guus: would be useful to discuss
15:30:31 <Clay> Sean: make broaderGeneric ??? subclassOf
15:31:13 <aliman> q+
15:31:42 <Clay> Guus: if you look at the broader definition it's not clear
15:31:47 <Clay> ... need more dicussion
15:32:18 <Clay> Alistair: if you have broaderGeneric as a subproperty of subclassOf
15:32:25 <Clay> ... through broaderGeneric
15:32:30 <Clay> ... requires more thought
15:32:46 <Clay> Sean: no theoretical reason for having super as transitive
15:33:03 <Clay> Guus: proposal was to write some primer text on it and should be fine
15:33:55 <Clay> ACTION: Guus to write primer text re: broaderGeneric and equivalence w/r/t subclass
15:34:42 <aliman> q+ to mention meta-modeling issue
15:36:18 <TomB> ack aliman
15:36:18 <Zakim> aliman, you wanted to mention meta-modeling issue
15:36:20 <Clay> Alistair: when you write the part of the primer, consider how it fits with ConceptSchemes and OWL ontologies
15:37:23 <Clay> Tom: re: ISSUE-67 
15:37:39 <Clay> ... supports the proposed resolution
15:38:39 <Clay> ... propose to accept issue 67
15:38:54 <Clay> RESOLVED: StatingFormalDefinitions ISSUE-67 accepted
15:38:56 <Ralph> [[PROPOSED: To state formal aspects of the SKOS data model in the main 
15:38:56 <Ralph> body of the SKOS Reference as sentences of prose following the style of 
15:38:56 <Ralph> prose used in the RDF Schema specification 
15:38:56 <Ralph> <http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/REC-rdf-schema-20040210/>. An OWL ontology 
15:38:56 <Ralph> will also be given as an appendix to the SKOS Reference, however the 
15:38:57 <Ralph> prose in the main body of the SKOS Reference will take precedence.
15:38:59 <Ralph> ]]
15:39:03 <Ralph> -- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2008Mar/0027.html
15:40:06 <Clay> Tom: issue-71 and ISSUE-74
15:40:23 <Clay> ...re: ParallelMappingVocabulary and MappingPropertyConventions
15:40:23 <Ralph> [issue 74 is in Alistair's top 10, 71 is not]
15:40:41 <Ralph> s/not/there as related to 74/
15:41:17 <Clay> Alistair:iGuus and broaderMatch as subproperty of broader
15:41:34 <Ralph> -> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/track/issues/74 "issue 74" MappingPropertyConventions
15:41:37 <Clay> Guus: nothing happened afterward
15:41:53 <Ralph> -> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/track/issues/71 "issue 71" ParallelMappingVocabulary
15:42:12 <Clay> Alistair: if we can fix this it gets a big piece of work out of the way for the reference
15:42:30 <Clay> ... Guus' proposal is a middle ground and is interesting
15:45:25 <Clay> ACTION: Alistair to review Antoine and Guus' emails to move ISSUE-71 and -74 
15:45:44 <Guus> I created the ftf poll:
15:45:47 <Guus> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/39408/FTF-May-2008-poll/
15:45:56 <Ralph> -> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/track/issues/80 "issue 80" SKOS-OWL-Patterns
15:46:05 <Clay> Tom: re: ISSUE-80...do we need an action associated?
15:46:12 <edsu> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2008Jan/0198.html
15:46:24 <Clay> Ed: Guus sent a chunk of HTML to be included in primer?
15:46:30 <Clay> Antoine: issue is more recent
15:47:23 <Clay> Tom: forwards without an action (re: SKOS-OWL-Patterns (Alistair))
15:47:41 <Clay> Guus: I'll try to have this for discussion before next telecon
15:47:55 <Clay> ... will come back to this after my action
15:48:02 <Clay> Topic: RDFa
15:48:31 <Clay> Ben: Ralph, status on primer?
15:48:47 <Ralph> -> http://www.w3.org/News/2008#item44 RDFa Primer updated
15:49:08 <Clay> Ben: will have several implementations ready before going to candidate rec
15:49:17 <Ralph> -> http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-xhtml-rdfa-primer-20080317/ RDFa Primer W3C Working Draft 17 March 2008
15:49:33 <Ralph> ACTION: Ralph and Ben to publish web version of the new RDFa Primer [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/03/11-swd-minutes.html#action06]
15:49:35 <Ralph> -- don
15:49:36 <Ralph> -- done
15:49:42 <Clay> ... I had an action to update the schedule, but haven't had a chance to look
15:49:59 <Clay> ... had a request to extend deadline to do some XSLT work
15:50:17 <Ralph> -> http://www.w3.org/2008/03/13-rdfa-minutes 13-March RDFa telecon record
15:50:32 <Clay> ACTION: Ben to prepare draft implementation report for RDFa (with assistance from Michael) [recorded in [recorded in
15:50:34 <Clay> http://www.w3.org/2008/01/22-swd-minutes.html#action14]
15:50:36 <Clay> --continues
15:50:58 <Clay> Ben: date of April 21 for review of primer for WG
15:51:11 <Clay> ... if it works on our end it's a date we can match
15:51:17 <Clay> ACTION: Ben to clarify target date of publication of primer as note and update deliverables page [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/03/04-swd-minutes.html#action08]
15:51:18 <Clay> --done
15:52:00 <Zakim> -Ben_Adida
15:52:00 <Clay> Topic: Recipes
15:52:26 <Clay> Diego: re: Cool URIs
15:52:41 <Clay> ... I raised three comments , third was a mistake
15:53:16 <Clay> ... I agree with sprit of first two and his view is better than ours but more complex to implement in Apache
15:53:41 <Clay> ... decide if we want to change our current recipes or keep as is
15:53:56 <Clay> s/decide/we need to decide/
15:54:24 <Clay> Ralph: i haven't discussed this with Tim
15:54:43 <Clay> ... I think it might be a mistake to complicate the recipes
15:55:00 <aliman> q+ to say on q-value
15:55:27 <Clay> Ed: my only suggestion was to explicitly state that this was for Apache and .htaccess and mod_rewrite
15:56:30 <Clay> Tom: perhaps sounds like a  good solution as well
15:57:13 <Clay> ... if the authors wish to keep the technical scope the same as it is now, that is good
15:57:30 <Clay> Jon: inclined to agree with Ralph to not make the doc more complex
15:58:11 <Clay> ... scope of this doc was for relative simplicity
15:59:38 <Clay> ACTION: recipes editors to clarify and write some sentences for the title that spells out the points Ed made for .htaccess and Apache
16:00:47 <aliman> q-
16:01:06 <Clay> ACTION: Diego, Jon and Ralph to coordinate Recipes examples for w3c site [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/03/11-swd-minutes.html#action09]
16:01:09 <Clay> --continues
16:01:16 <Clay> ACTION: Ralph propose resolution to ISSUE-16 "Default behavior" [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/22-swd-minutes.html#action14]
16:01:18 <Clay> --continues
16:01:23 <Clay> ACTION: Ralph/Diego to work on Wordnet implementation [of Recipes implementations] [recorded in [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/01/22-swd-minutes.html#action20]
16:01:25 <Clay> --continues
16:01:33 <Clay> Topic: Vocabulary Management
16:01:34 <Ralph> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2008Mar/0061.html new Vocab Mgmnt editor's draft
16:01:44 <Clay> Tom: Elisa has posted a doc for review
16:01:54 <Ralph> s/draft/draft published/
16:02:03 <Ralph> -> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/Vocab/principles-20080316 16-March Vocab Mgmnt Editor's draft
16:02:10 <Clay> ... need reviewers for completion 2 weeks from now
16:02:26 <Clay> Diego: I volunteer.
16:02:54 <Clay> Guus: Tom?
16:03:08 <Clay> Tom: will review, but would like antoher reviewer
16:03:21 <Clay> Guus: Mark from Wordnet to review possibly?
16:03:24 <Clay> Tom: that's fine
16:04:39 <Guus> ACTIO: Guus to ask Mark van Assem to review VM Editor's Draft 
16:04:56 <Clay> Tom: please respond to Guus' poll about dates
16:05:01 <Ralph> s/ACTIO:/ACTION:/
16:05:08 <Zakim> -dlrubin?
16:05:12 <Zakim> -edsu
16:05:12 <seanb> seanb has left #swd
16:05:14 <Zakim> -Ralph
16:05:15 <Zakim> -Alistair
16:05:18 <Zakim> -Antoine
16:05:19 <Zakim> -Quentin
16:05:19 <Zakim> -SeanB
16:05:21 <Zakim> -berrueta
16:05:22 <Zakim> -JonP
16:05:23 <Zakim> -Margherita
16:05:29 <dlrubin> dlrubin has left #swd
16:05:35 <Clay> zakim, list attendees
16:05:35 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Clay, Ralph, Tom, berrueta, edsu, Quentin, Antoine, Guus, Margherita, JonP, Ben_Adida, Alistair, SeanB, dlrubin?
16:05:45 <Ralph> [ah, thanks, Guus; I mis-heard "Mark van Assem" -- thought you'd mentioned a different Mark]
16:05:54 <Clay> rrsagent, please draft minutes
16:05:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/03/18-swd-minutes.html Clay
16:07:19 <Clay> Ralph: I might email with you some questions, but no need to rejoin.  Thanks.
16:07:27 <Ralph> great
16:08:37 <Zakim> -Clay
16:09:54 <edsu> edsu has left #swd
16:18:40 <Zakim> -Guus
16:18:43 <Zakim> -Tom
16:18:44 <Zakim> SW_SWD()11:00AM has ended
16:18:45 <Zakim> Attendees were Clay, Ralph, Tom, berrueta, edsu, Quentin, Antoine, Guus, Margherita, JonP, Ben_Adida, Alistair, SeanB, dlrubin?
16:58:25 <Ralph> zakim, bye
16:58:25 <Zakim> Zakim has left #swd
16:58:27 <Ralph> rrsagent, bye
16:58:27 <RRSAgent> I see 16 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2008/03/18-swd-actions.rdf :
16:58:27 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Chairs to draft charter extension proposal for SKOS until July 1st [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/26-swd-minutes.html#action01] [1]
16:58:27 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/03/18-swd-irc#T15-05-26
16:58:27 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Guus to set up a poll for a meeting 6-8 May with different possible venues Amsterdam, Boston, London or Washington [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/03/11-swd-minutes.html#action02] [2]
16:58:27 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/03/18-swd-irc#T15-05-42
16:58:27 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Alistair and Guus to check the text in the primer on relationship between Concept Schemes and OWL Ontologies. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/01/29-swd-minutes.html#action13] [3]
16:58:27 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/03/18-swd-irc#T15-10-05
16:58:27 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Sean to propose a way to handle deprecated properties (updating RDF schema) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/12-swd-minutes.html#action06] [4]
16:58:27 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/03/18-swd-irc#T15-10-33
16:58:27 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ralph to check whether the common interpretation of rdfs isDefinedBy fits the reasoning that was made in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2007Oct/0141.html [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/12/18-swd-minutes.html#action10] [5]
16:58:27 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/03/18-swd-irc#T15-10-45
16:58:27 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Antoine will review a list of proposals w/r/t the relationship between the existing solution and the extensioin [6]
16:58:27 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/03/18-swd-irc#T15-22-12
16:58:27 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Alistair to make a proposal for Issue 40 (Concept Coordination) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/01/29-swd-minutes.html#action09] [7]
16:58:27 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/03/18-swd-irc#T15-27-39
16:58:27 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Guus to write primer text re: broaderGeneric and equivalence w/r/t subclass [8]
16:58:27 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/03/18-swd-irc#T15-33-55
16:58:27 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Alistair to review Antoine and Guus' emails to move ISSUE-71 and -74  [9]
16:58:27 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/03/18-swd-irc#T15-45-25
16:58:27 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ralph and Ben to publish web version of the new RDFa Primer [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/03/11-swd-minutes.html#action06] [10]
16:58:27 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/03/18-swd-irc#T15-49-33
16:58:27 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben to prepare draft implementation report for RDFa (with assistance from Michael) [recorded in [recorded in [11]
16:58:27 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/03/18-swd-irc#T15-50-32
16:58:27 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben to clarify target date of publication of primer as note and update deliverables page [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/03/04-swd-minutes.html#action08] [12]
16:58:27 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/03/18-swd-irc#T15-51-17
16:58:27 <RRSAgent> ACTION: recipes editors to clarify and write some sentences for the title that spells out the points Ed made for .htaccess and Apache [13]
16:58:27 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/03/18-swd-irc#T15-59-38
16:58:27 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Diego, Jon and Ralph to coordinate Recipes examples for w3c site [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/03/11-swd-minutes.html#action09] [14]
16:58:27 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/03/18-swd-irc#T16-01-06
16:58:27 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ralph propose resolution to ISSUE-16 "Default behavior" [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/22-swd-minutes.html#action14] [15]
16:58:27 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/03/18-swd-irc#T16-01-16
16:58:27 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ralph/Diego to work on Wordnet implementation [of Recipes implementations] [recorded in [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/01/22-swd-minutes.html#action20] [16]
16:58:27 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/03/18-swd-irc#T16-01-23