12:58:10 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #awwsw
12:58:10 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/03/18-awwsw-irc
13:00:51 <jar286> zakim, this will be awwsw
13:00:51 <Zakim> ok, jar286, I see TAG_(AWWSW)9:00AM already started
13:01:08 <Zakim> +??P7
13:01:09 <Zakim> -??P7
13:01:09 <Zakim> +??P7
13:01:31 <jar286> zakim, ??P7 is dbooth
13:01:31 <Zakim> +dbooth; got it
13:02:14 <jar286> Chair: Jonathan
13:03:21 <dbooth> dbooth has joined #awwsw
13:04:13 <dbooth> dbooth has joined #awwsw
13:04:45 <dbooth> Meeting: AWWSW
13:05:14 <alanr> alanr has joined #awwsw
13:05:35 <Zakim> +Alan
13:06:12 <alanr> zakim, who is here?
13:06:12 <Zakim> On the phone I see +1.781.643.aaaa, dbooth, Alan
13:06:13 <Zakim> On IRC I see alanr, dbooth, RRSAgent, Zakim, jar286, trackbot-ng
13:06:41 <alanr> zakim, aaaa is Jonathan
13:06:41 <Zakim> +Jonathan; got it
13:07:53 <jar286> http://www.w3.org/Protocols/rfc2616/rfc2616-sec6.html#sec6
13:12:09 <dbooth> Jonathan: What I'd like to do today: A property that relates an HTTP response to the thing denoted by the original URI that you were asking about.
13:13:57 <dbooth> http://esw.w3.org/topic/AwwswDboothsRules
13:15:24 <dbooth> jar: when you do a get, you should learn something about the URI.
13:15:34 <jar286> about the thing denoted by the URI
13:17:29 <dbooth> alan: Assuming no conneg, and a fixed  MS word doc is sent.  how do we know how to interpret it?  Need some metadata to know it's a word doc. (ignoring http spec for the moment).  What's a sufficient  knowledge rep of that?  A binary blob with a typing triple.
13:17:45 <alanr> "alksdkakd;ad" rdf:type mw:word_document
13:18:01 <alanr> is this the microsoft word document information resource?
13:18:12 <dbooth> ?blob rdf:type mw:word_document
13:18:53 <alanr> q: let's define one simple informationr resource, independent of http
13:19:12 <jar286> ?blob foo:has_content "0100100100100101"
13:19:52 <dbooth> http://example#foo :hasRepresentation ?blob^^mw:microsoft_word
13:20:32 <alanr> "http://example#foo" :denotes 
13:20:49 <dbooth> oops, no, because the ?blob itself is supposed to have the data type.
13:21:55 <jar286> jar gets alarmed whenever we talk about "information resources"
13:22:00 <jar286> how about information thing
13:22:27 <jar286> for the purposes of this conversation
13:25:06 <dbooth> Alan: http://example/mydoc denotes a thing that consists of a type and a blob.
13:25:31 <dbooth> .... or a typed blob.
13:26:00 <dbooth> ... Now we can talk about what happens with HTTP.
13:26:47 <alanr> http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/ork2000/HA011382051033.aspx
13:26:58 <alanr> there is a mime type called application/msword
13:27:19 <alanr> get http://example#foo ->
13:27:29 <alanr> response has a number of headers
13:27:48 <dbooth> ... Should be GET http://example/mydoc 
13:28:10 <Stuart> Stuart has joined #awwsw
13:28:45 <alanr> mything = that ms word document information thing
13:28:53 <jar286> (danger: I would predict Tim to reject http://example/mydoc leading to a 200 response for the same reason that he rejects a number leading to a 200 response - it is a mathematical object, not a Fieldingesque 'resource')
13:29:02 <alanr> my goal is to get a message that lets me make an exact copy
13:29:11 <alanr> hi and bye stuart
13:29:39 <alanr> please call in
13:30:14 <Zakim> +??P0
13:30:27 <jar286> zakim, ??P0 is skw
13:30:27 <Zakim> +skw; got it
13:30:28 <Stuart> zakim, ? is me
13:30:29 <Zakim> sorry, Stuart, I do not recognize a party named '?'
13:31:04 <alanr> topic: what is the relation between a http response and the thing it denotes
13:31:12 <alanr> it = the URI
13:32:52 <dbooth> i/Meeting/Topic: Properties that relate an HTTP response to the original URI
13:33:30 <Stuart> 'origninal'?
13:35:44 <dbooth> Alan: I have a fixed MS word doc.  It's a basically a typed blob.
13:35:58 <jar286> zakim, skw is stuart
13:35:58 <Zakim> +stuart; got it
13:36:24 <dbooth> Alan: Want to be able to send an exact copy of that thing over HTTP.
13:37:27 <dbooth> ... So you would GET from a URI, and you'd get back a mime type and an entity body.
13:38:14 <Zakim> +TimBL
13:38:41 <dbooth> rrsagent, where am i?
13:38:41 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2008/03/18-awwsw-irc#T13-38-41
13:38:54 <dbooth> rrsagent, make logs public
13:39:24 <timbl> timbl has joined #awwsw
13:40:05 <alanr> http://example#foo
13:40:06 <dbooth> Alan: I can use the entity body and the mme type to reconstitute the typed blob.
13:40:37 <dbooth> no, to start simple, use this uri: http://example/mydoc 
13:41:10 <dbooth> (Because you can't GET from a UIRI with a frag ID.)
13:42:56 <timbl> q+
13:43:07 <dbooth> So if the document owner puts the document at /mydoc on server example, then GET http://example/mydoc will return what you need.
13:43:20 <jar286> ack timbl
13:43:21 <dbooth> ack timbl
13:44:47 <dbooth> timbl: In the WebArch, if the MS Word doc is the vitals of the society, the way the web's used, you say the URI identifies the vitals of the society.  You  don't say it identifies a word doc.  What's interesting is that it's the vitals of the socieity.  Then a GET response is a representation.
13:44:59 <Stuart> I think that the response 'convey's a representation of the resource.
13:45:01 <jar286> timbl (jar's paraphrase): maybe a word document is not a good example because we don't use uris to name the kind of thing this discussion started with
13:45:24 <dbooth> Alan: I was trying to make life simpler -- assuming no conneg.
13:47:19 <Stuart> exists resource R such that response RESP conveys representation REP such that REP represents (stateOf) R (at time of request)
13:49:49 <dbooth> Alan: So I notice if I do a GET on http://example/mydoc the entity body and mime type would allow me to reconstitute my object.
13:50:03 <Stuart> reconsitute == create a clone?
13:51:02 <dbooth> ... Then we could say that in that case, the relationship of the thing denoted by the URI and the response you get is this: you take the entity body and the mime type, and you interpret them as the blob and type.
13:51:32 <dbooth> Alan: What other reasonable responses might there be?
13:51:38 <Stuart> Alan: The final phrase of what you said tailed of in "that thing" and I don't know whether that is a reference to the original document or its clone - indexicals!
13:52:06 <dbooth> .... The server could return an HTML doc instead.
13:52:12 <jar286> "that thing" = the information thing = particular bits + type information
13:52:37 <dbooth> timbl: no, if the doc is a fixed resource, then you cannot get something else back.
13:52:44 <dbooth> s/get/give/
13:53:59 <jar286> stopping for homework in 2 minutes
13:54:06 <Stuart> jar: at best, in webarch, bits+type info are a representation (of ??) [the (current?) state of the resource]/
13:54:31 <Stuart> at best I see that as a type for a set of self similar messages.
13:54:36 <jar286> stuart: but this discussion didn't start with uris, or representations, or resources. it started with this information thing
13:54:37 <dbooth> Alan, now supose the server gives a 303 response instead of 200.
13:54:52 <dbooth> timbl: why do you want a 303?
13:55:11 <dbooth> Alan: I dont' yet know it is a fixed resource, and I don't know yet it is a set of bylaws.
13:55:12 <timbl> Link:
13:55:47 <dbooth> ... So how would I get that other information?
13:56:39 <dbooth> jar: If each individual in the group could produce an account (in RDF preferably) of relating a GET response to the thing denoted by a URI, we could compare them.
13:57:06 <dbooth> Alan: yes, but there are different kinds of HTTP responses.  So if it wasn't a fixed resource, there are several things you could get back.
13:57:20 <dbooth> jar: Write as many relationships as you can think of.
13:57:30 <Stuart> Alan, can you indicate what conclusion you are trying to reach...
13:59:35 <dbooth> dbooth: My rules show the relationship between the thing denoted by a URI and a URI declaration, which sounds very much like what you are asking for.
13:59:44 <dbooth> jar: Yes, but i want to see it for documents.
14:00:02 <dbooth> dbooth: My rules did not cover the document case.
14:00:05 <Stuart> are we talking about a form of typed literal?
14:00:33 <Stuart> [i don't mean an RDF typed literal or an XML literal]
14:00:54 <dbooth> stuart, you can call them something else if you want (not UIR declaration), but it is a collection of metadata about the denoted resource.
14:01:51 <Zakim> -Alan
14:01:53 <Zakim> -stuart
14:01:54 <Zakim> -dbooth
14:02:36 <jar286> dbooth, sorry to hijack your agendum.
14:02:47 <dbooth> no prob.
14:02:50 <Zakim> -Jonathan
14:02:53 <Zakim> -TimBL
14:02:55 <Zakim> TAG_(AWWSW)9:00AM has ended
14:02:56 <Zakim> Attendees were +1.781.643.aaaa, dbooth, Alan, Jonathan, stuart, TimBL
14:03:14 <jar286> the discussion was *inspired* by your work...
14:03:14 <dbooth> it's amazing how we're still struggling so much with such basic things.
14:03:21 <jar286> yes
14:03:32 <dbooth> very hard to get a common starting point.
14:05:15 <jar286> are you going to close up with rrsagent?
14:06:32 <jar286> zakim, bye
14:06:32 <Zakim> Zakim has left #awwsw
15:06:41 <alanr> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:06:41 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/03/18-awwsw-minutes.html alanr
15:07:02 <alanr> rrsagent, make minutes public
15:07:02 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes public', alanr.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
15:07:08 <alanr> rrsagent, make log public
15:07:30 <alanr> alanr has left #awwsw
15:36:04 <dbooth> jar, yes i'll post the minutes, incomprehensible as they may be :(
15:39:23 <dbooth> Regrets: Noah
15:39:29 <dbooth> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:39:29 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/03/18-awwsw-minutes.html dbooth