IRC log of bpwg on 2008-03-11

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:56:37 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #bpwg
14:56:37 [RRSAgent]: logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/03/11-bpwg-irc
14:56:39 [trackbot-ng]: RRSAgent, make logs public
14:56:39 [Zakim]: Zakim has joined #bpwg
14:56:41 [trackbot-ng]: Zakim, this will be BPWG
14:56:41 [Zakim]: ok, trackbot-ng; I see MWI_BPWG(CTTF)11:00AM scheduled to start in 4 minutes
14:56:42 [trackbot-ng]: Meeting: Mobile Web Best Practices Working Group Teleconference
14:56:42 [trackbot-ng]: Date: 11 March 2008
14:56:59 [francois]: Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg-ct/2008Mar/0003.html
14:57:05 [francois]: Chair: francois
14:57:24 [francois]: Regrets: Bryan, MartinJ, Murari
14:57:43 [francois]: zakim, code?
14:57:43 [Zakim]: the conference code is 2283 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), francois
14:58:14 [Zakim]: MWI_BPWG(CTTF)11:00AM has now started
14:58:15 [jo]: jo has joined #bpwg
14:58:21 [Zakim]: + +049238aaaa
14:58:31 [francois]: zakim, aaaa is me
14:58:31 [Zakim]: +francois; got it
14:58:35 [jo]: zakim, code?
14:58:35 [Zakim]: the conference code is 2283 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), jo
14:59:08 [Zakim]: + +0208995aabb
14:59:19 [jo]: zakim, aabb is me
14:59:19 [Zakim]: +jo; got it
14:59:52 [hgerlach]: hgerlach has joined #bpwg
14:59:57 [Zakim]: + +46.3.17.47.aacc
14:59:58 [hgerlach]: hi
15:00:03 [Magnus]: zakim, +46 is me
15:00:07 [Zakim]: +Magnus; got it
15:00:40 [andrews]: andrews has joined #bpwg
15:00:50 [Zakim]: + +049211aadd
15:00:51 [SeanP]: SeanP has joined #bpwg
15:01:42 [Zakim]: + +0207287aaee
15:01:45 [jo]: zakim, aadd is heiko
15:01:46 [Zakim]: +heiko; got it
15:02:07 [francois]: zakim, aadd is hgerlach
15:02:07 [Zakim]: sorry, francois, I do not recognize a party named 'aadd'
15:02:08 [rob]: rob has joined #bpwg
15:02:28 [francois]: zakim, aaee is rob
15:02:30 [Zakim]: + +1.630.414.aaff
15:02:32 [Zakim]: +rob; got it
15:02:41 [SeanP]: Zakim, aaff is me
15:02:42 [Zakim]: +SeanP; got it
15:03:28 [francois]: zakim, who's on the call?
15:03:34 [francois]: zakim, who is on the call?
15:03:44 [Zakim]: On the phone I see francois, jo, Magnus, heiko, rob, SeanP
15:03:52 [Zakim]: On the phone I see francois, jo, Magnus, heiko, rob, SeanP
15:03:59 [jo]: zakim, wake up
15:03:59 [Zakim]: I don't understand 'wake up', jo
15:04:30 [jo]: Scribe: Jo
15:05:13 [jo]: Topic: Introduction
15:05:25 [Zakim]: + +0789972aagg
15:05:41 [jo]: francois: [review of what happened at the F2F and pointer to summary]
15:05:45 [francois]: zakim, aagg is andrew
15:05:45 [Zakim]: +andrew; got it
15:06:34 [jo]: francois: jo proposed an editor's meeting ... I can host at Sofia (SE France)
15:06:50 [jo]: ... who would be able to come?
15:07:01 [jo]: ... dates would be next week or the week after
15:07:19 [andrews]: No, sorry
15:07:26 [SeanP]: I don't think I'll be able to make it
15:07:50 [jo]: jo: needs to be before Easter
15:08:03 [jo]: francois: perhaps we can wait an extra week?
15:08:12 [jo]: heiko: could we do it in the UK?
15:08:26 [jo]: jo: need a host in the UK
15:10:01 [jo]: ... if noone else wants to attend then Francois and I can sort this out between us
15:13:45 [jo]: PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Francois and Jo to roganise work as they see fit and present group with final pre-FPWD
15:13:49 [andrews]: +1 (and thank you)
15:13:53 [rob]: +1
15:13:55 [francois]: +1
15:14:09 [jo]: RESOLUTION: Francois and Jo to roganise work as they see fit and present group with final pre-FPWD
15:15:43 [jo]: jo: the only bits that open to discuss in that context are the bits after 3.1.4
15:16:03 [jo]: ... following resolution at F2F
15:16:34 [jo]: Topic: Aarons Contribution ACTION-666
15:16:43 [francois]: -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg-ct/2008Mar/0000.html Aaron's contribution
15:17:21 [jo]: francois: this is content for 2.5 control of the behavior of the proxy
15:17:34 [jo]: ... goes in the same direction as we agreed to go
15:17:46 [jo]: ... maybe inconsistent with other things we say
15:18:21 [jo]: ... question is how should proxy indicate it could transform?
15:19:18 [jo]: ... if the content has not been modified then the proxy should indicate that a transformed version is available
15:19:28 [jo]: ... how should this happen?
15:19:52 [jo]: ... I don't see how this can happen without transforming the page
15:19:58 [SeanP]: q+
15:20:07 [jo]: magnus: there could be an insterstitial page
15:20:29 [jo]: francois: yes, I suggested that but it would be a lousy user experience
15:20:39 [francois]: ack SeanP
15:20:53 [jo]: heiko: i think it should be only done once
15:21:03 [jo]: seanP: you could insert a little link
15:21:33 [jo]: francois: yes, I noted that in response to aaron, but that would imply inconsistent behavior
15:22:20 [jo]: seanP: one possiblity is some user agreement that it you wanted it you could get it
15:22:43 [jo]: francois: the list of options should contain this as an option that the user can set
15:23:04 [jo]: ... sometimes you are looking at a page and you wish you could transform it or not
15:23:23 [jo]: ... if the server issued a cache-control no-transform the link would be missing
15:23:29 [SeanP]: q+
15:23:40 [francois]: ack SeanP
15:23:50 [jo]: ... the proxy MAY indicate that a transformed version is available only where it decided not to transform
15:24:08 [rob]: q+
15:24:23 [francois]: ack rob
15:24:28 [jo]: seanP: further on your point about having a link sometimes and sometimes not might be confusing, I am not really sure that would be a bad user experience
15:25:00 [hgerlach]: q+
15:25:13 [jo]: rob: there is the issue about confusion and there is also the question about wanting to split the page and in those circumstances the user might want to transform in this case
15:25:26 [francois]: ack hgerlach
15:25:42 [jo]: ... so its worth saying you can switch it off and on but saying how is probably out of scope
15:26:18 [jo]: heiko: can we differentiate three things - leave things completley untouched, second, just headers and footers
15:27:17 [jo]: francois: we are trying to allow the server to have a "switch off" and if we allow adding a link that is something to be avoided
15:28:31 [jo]: ... we could complete Aaron's text to say that this should not be done to pages that can not be transformed
15:28:36 [francois]: PROPOSED RESOLUTION: keep aaron's text as it is for 2.5.1
15:29:20 [Magnus]: q+
15:30:22 [francois]: -> http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/TaskForces/CT/editors-drafts/Guidelines/080227#sec-ServerResponse current editor's text
15:32:12 [francois]: ack Magnus
15:33:00 [jo]: jo: Don't think we should discuss adding a link to the unmodified content to say that it could be modified
15:33:05 [Magnus]: Transforming proxies SHOULD provide to their users an indication that the content being viewed has been adapted for
15:33:05 [Magnus]: mobile presentation. If the content has not been modified, because of
15:33:05 [Magnus]: server or user preferences, but transformation is possible and
15:33:05 [Magnus]: potentially useful, the proxy MAY indicate that a transformed version
15:33:05 [Magnus]: is available.
15:33:26 [jo]: ... that could appear later in the document - this section is an overview
15:34:54 [jo]: francois: take jo's point that whatever we resolve on the second bit it could go later in the document
15:35:31 [jo]: ... magnus, would you leave out the bit on saying that the content can be modified
15:35:58 [jo]: magnus: my main problem is that the resolution can't be left as is, as it has a number of comments
15:36:56 [jo]: ... I'd be happy with just taking the first sentence and then saying that the original content can be retireved without saying how exactly
15:37:17 [jo]: ... could also have the bit on sticky sessions
15:37:49 [jo]: ... I'm trying to look at this in the context of the document which is an overview
15:37:58 [jo]: ... [discusses how it can be worded]
15:39:10 [francois]: Transforming proxies MAY provide to their users:
15:39:10 [francois]: - An indication that the content being viewed has been adapted for
15:39:10 [francois]: mobile presentation.
15:39:10 [francois]: - An option to view the original, unmodified content.
15:39:10 [francois]: - some "sticky" preferences to their users.
15:39:43 [SeanP]: q+
15:39:46 [jo]: francois: this is to emphasize the point that this is just a discussion
15:39:48 [francois]: ack SeanP
15:40:30 [jo]: seanp: we have talked about providing a link to unmodified content - what to do if the unmodified content crashes the phone?
15:40:59 [jo]: francois: good point but does not remove the need for a link in the generic case, the proxy could offer a warning
15:41:06 [jo]: ... in that case
15:41:09 [jo]: q+
15:42:49 [francois]: Transforming proxies SHOULD provide to their users:
15:42:49 [francois]: - An indication that the content being viewed has been adapted for
15:42:49 [francois]: mobile presentation.
15:42:49 [francois]: - An option to view the original, unmodified content.
15:42:49 [francois]: - some session settings to their users.
15:43:09 [jo]: jo: I'd prefer to leave the normative wording even though this is less of a prescriptive section, otherwise there's a danger that the document may appear to contradict itself when it goes on to discuss it later
15:44:20 [jo]: ... I think it's SHOULD on the first two and a MAY on the third
15:44:44 [francois]: Transforming proxies SHOULD provide to their users:
15:44:44 [francois]: - An indication that the content being viewed has been adapted for
15:44:44 [francois]: mobile presentation.
15:44:45 [francois]: - An option to view the original, unmodified content.
15:44:45 [francois]: They MAY also provide session settings to their users.
15:44:52 [jo]: +1
15:45:11 [andrews]: +1
15:45:19 [Magnus]: +1
15:45:23 [jo]: ACTION: Jo to reword 2.5.1 along the lines proposed by Francois
15:45:23 [trackbot-ng]: Created ACTION-706 - Reword 2.5.1 along the lines proposed by Francois [on Jo Rabin - due 2008-03-18].
15:45:24 [SeanP]: +1
15:46:06 [jo]: francois: additional qeustion, should we mention examples of session settings
15:46:13 [jo]: magnus: that would be OK
15:46:29 [jo]: francois: relates to the list of directives we removed from the document
15:46:39 [jo]: ... seems to me to be useful
15:47:37 [jo]: magnus: examples being: never transform no matter what, only transform if absolutely necessary, transform as much as possible and so on
15:47:59 [jo]: jo: that is similar to the list we will try to codify in POWDER as server preferences
15:48:47 [jo]: ACTION: Jo to include examples in 2.5.1 bullet 3 per the dicussion above
15:48:47 [trackbot-ng]: Created ACTION-707 - Include examples in 2.5.1 bullet 3 per the dicussion above [on Jo Rabin - due 2008-03-18].
15:49:14 [jo]: heiko: I expect POWDER is for the device capability database
15:49:34 [jo]: ... it's a follow on to WURFL?
15:49:46 [jo]: jo: no
15:50:34 [jo]: ... we have been looking at it as a way of describing server preferences
15:51:18 [jo]: heiko: we need to capture the dependences on other projects, we need to understand device capabilities
15:51:30 [jo]: francois: we don't want to depend on POWDER
15:51:39 [jo]: ... and don't want to be delayed by it
15:51:55 [jo]: ... or indeed the DDR
15:52:41 [jo]: francois: on 2.5.2
15:53:21 [francois]: Transforming proxies MUST provide support for control over the content
15:53:21 [francois]: transformation process by origin servers.
15:53:36 [francois]: These control mechanisms are detailed in section 3 (Behavior of Components).
15:54:31 [hgerlach]: sorry quys, I have to leave for the next call:-(, cheers Heiko
15:54:37 [andrews]: +q
15:54:42 [francois]: ack andrews
15:55:00 [jo]: andrew: are we only referring to no-transform here?
15:55:08 [Zakim]: -heiko
15:55:40 [jo]: francois: the controls are in section 3, at the moment it is true that no-transform is the only control we have but maybe there will be more control by POWDER later
15:57:10 [jo]: jo: points out that vary and warning transformation applied are both means of control
15:57:48 [jo]: francois: I don't think we should list warning transformation applied as a means of control
15:57:55 [jo]: jo: agreed
15:58:28 [jo]: ACTION: Jo to update 2.5.2 in accordance with discussion and Seoul resolution on preferences
15:58:28 [trackbot-ng]: Created ACTION-708 - Update 2.5.2 in accordance with discussion and Seoul resolution on preferences [on Jo Rabin - due 2008-03-18].
15:59:48 [jo]: francois: aaron leaves 2.5.3 untouched, do we need to say more
15:59:48 [SeanP]: This is another place where some examples may help.
15:59:51 [jo]: jo: not sure
16:00:15 [jo]: francois: it's a bit useless as is so examples would help
16:00:27 [francois]: ACTION: daoust to write some examples for 2.5.3
16:00:27 [trackbot-ng]: Created ACTION-709 - Write some examples for 2.5.3 [on François Daoust - due 2008-03-18].
16:01:39 [jo]: jo: I'll try to update the doc in the next couple of days
16:01:51 [Zakim]: -Magnus
16:01:55 [jo]: [adjourned]
16:02:07 [francois]: Close ACTION-666
16:02:07 [trackbot-ng]: ACTION-666 Draft section 2.6 listing user control options that SHOULD be supported closed
16:02:09 [jo]: s/[adjourned]//
16:02:17 [jo]: [adjourned]
16:02:22 [Zakim]: -SeanP
16:02:23 [Zakim]: -francois
16:02:25 [Zakim]: -andrew
16:02:25 [Zakim]: -jo
16:02:25 [Zakim]: -rob
16:02:26 [Zakim]: MWI_BPWG(CTTF)11:00AM has ended
16:02:27 [Zakim]: Attendees were +049238aaaa, francois, +0208995aabb, jo, +46.3.17.47.aacc, Magnus, +049211aadd, +0207287aaee, heiko, +1.630.414.aaff, rob, SeanP, +0789972aagg, andrew
16:02:30 [rob]: rob has left #bpwg
16:02:34 [francois]: zakim, list attendees
16:02:34 [Zakim]: sorry, francois, I don't know what conference this is
16:02:41 [francois]: RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:02:41 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/03/11-bpwg-minutes.html francois
16:03:05 [jo]: Present: Francois, Jo, SeanP, AndrewS, Magnus, Heiko, Rob
16:03:29 [jo]: rrsagent, make logs public
16:03:36 [jo]: rrsagent, make minutes
16:03:36 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/03/11-bpwg-minutes.html jo
16:05:56 [jo]: rrsagent, off