15:02:04 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #owl
15:02:04 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/03/03-owl-irc
15:02:14 <alanr> zakim, this is owl
15:02:14 <Zakim> ok, alanr; that matches SW_OWL()10:00AM
15:02:47 <IanH> zakim, who is on the call?
15:02:47 <Zakim> On the phone I see Peter_Patel-Schneider, ??P9, Alan, Elisa_Kendall, Evan_Wallace
15:03:00 <IanH> zakim, ??P9 is IanH
15:03:00 <Zakim> +IanH; got it
15:03:15 <alanr> zakim, ??P9 is IanH
15:03:15 <Zakim> I already had ??P9 as IanH, alanr
15:03:34 <alanr> zakim, who is here?
15:03:34 <Zakim> On the phone I see Peter_Patel-Schneider, IanH, Alan, Elisa_Kendall, Evan_Wallace
15:03:39 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, Elisa, alanr, pfps, IanH, sandro, trackbot-ng, ewallace
15:04:19 <IanH> zakim, mute me
15:04:19 <Zakim> IanH should now be muted
15:06:17 <IanH> I just pinged Bijan and he will be joining shortly.
15:08:02 <Zakim> +??P24
15:09:03 <alanr> my ontology talk http://ashby.csail.mit.edu/presentations/Interontology08.ppt
15:09:21 <bijan> bijan has joined #owl
15:09:23 <alanr> Agenda: Next steps for Primer
15:09:32 <alanr> 2) Overview ideas from Elisa
15:09:33 <bijan> zakim, mute me
15:09:33 <Zakim> sorry, bijan, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
15:09:41 <alanr> 3) Reference Material / Evan
15:09:44 <bijan> zakim, who is here?
15:09:45 <Zakim> On the phone I see Peter_Patel-Schneider, IanH (muted), Alan, Elisa_Kendall, Evan_Wallace, ??P24
15:09:47 <alanr> 4) Cookbook?
15:09:47 <Zakim> On IRC I see bijan, RRSAgent, Zakim, Elisa, alanr, pfps, IanH, sandro, trackbot-ng, ewallace
15:09:54 <bijan> zakim, ??P24 is me
15:09:54 <Zakim> +bijan; got it
15:09:56 <bijan> zakim, mute me
15:09:56 <Zakim> bijan should now be muted
15:10:02 <Zakim> -Peter_Patel-Schneider
15:10:23 <alanr> waiting for you to reconnect, peter
15:10:30 <Zakim> +Peter_Patel-Schneider
15:11:20 <IanH> Remember the reset button on early apples?
15:12:04 <bijan> +1 (am working toward that)
15:12:07 <pfps> earlier would be better
15:12:11 <ewallace> +1
15:12:13 <IanH> +1 sounds good
15:12:17 <alanr> +1
15:12:22 <Elisa> +1 for me -1 for Deb
15:13:39 <bijan> zakim, unmute me
15:13:39 <Zakim> bijan should no longer be muted
15:13:40 <bijan> q+
15:14:28 <bijan> zakim, unmute me
15:14:28 <Zakim> bijan was not muted, bijan
15:14:38 <alanr> q+
15:15:22 <alanr> previous vote was whether to aim for FPWD of primer for next heartbeat
15:15:33 <alanr> Deb: Worried about Overview happening
15:15:46 <alanr> Deb: Wants to couple 2 in order to make sure it does
15:16:24 <bijan> There will be other opportunities to object, even tactically
15:16:43 <bijan> But there's no promises that the wg will endorse an overview!
15:17:07 <alanr> Alan: We are committed to overview, but blocking one for the other is not a good argument.
15:18:02 <bijan> q+
15:18:05 <alanr> Alan: Doesn't hear objection from deb about primer per se.
15:18:08 <alanr> ack bijan
15:18:21 <alanr> ack alanr
15:18:36 <alanr> ack Bijan
15:19:02 <Elisa> The concern is that an overview/quickstart document is really needed by some of her customers, and that the primer alone doesn't provide this functionality
15:19:06 <alanr> Alan: General sense is that Primer should move forward
15:19:36 <Elisa> The idea would be to make sure that this kind of document is addressed by the WG
15:20:27 <alanr> Bijan asks what how to decide which materials in the wg, which not
15:20:34 <alanr> asks elisa to respond
15:20:50 <alanr> q+ to respond to Bijan as well
15:20:59 <IanH> q+
15:21:41 <alanr> We should discuss that
15:22:40 <alanr> Elisa: Document saying why you care, quick links, here's where to go if you want a deeper dive
15:24:23 <ewallace> Is there anything new to this discussion?
15:24:39 <bijan> zakim, mute me
15:24:39 <Zakim> bijan should now be muted
15:25:15 <bijan> ewallace, perhaps not, but I still don't know what the terms of debate are
15:26:27 <bijan> (rather, the evaluation criteria)
15:26:50 <alanr> 2) Overview
15:27:13 <pfps> so what is the end-status for the primer?
15:27:40 <alanr> aim for FPWD, unencumbered
15:28:26 <alanr> overview: relatively short
15:28:56 <alanr> very short description of language at front. Document roadmap (2-3 sentences) if you need x go to document y
15:29:12 <alanr> Decsription of what kind of application people are working on . What it's good for.
15:29:17 <alanr> Summary of what's new.
15:29:47 <alanr> Feature summary like before. Each feature with a link. 
15:30:06 <alanr> very short summary and links in to other documents.
15:30:31 <alanr> quick on a link and go.
15:30:40 <alanr> like card for programming language.
15:30:44 <alanr> crib sheet.
15:30:46 <alanr> q+
15:30:50 <alanr> ack alanr
15:30:50 <Zakim> alanr, you wanted to respond to Bijan as well and to 
15:31:11 <IanH> zakim, unmute me
15:31:11 <Zakim> IanH should no longer be muted
15:31:25 <IanH> ack ianh
15:31:36 <alanr> q+
15:31:38 <alanr> q?
15:33:27 <bijan> There's a semantic web reference card: http://ebiquity.umbc.edu/_file_directory_/resources/94.pdf
15:33:39 <bijan> I have no idea how much its used
15:34:13 <bijan> q+
15:34:45 <alanr> ack alanr
15:34:46 <bijan> ack bijan
15:35:46 <alanr> Alan: Sees two audiences given Elisa's description. Risks same problem as before. Would be better if it was one audience and tight.
15:36:14 <alanr> Elisa: Maybe stuff about applications is separate. Perhaps mush of what Elisa wants with quick start and What Deb wants.
15:36:57 <alanr> Alan: Perhaps two points of view re: "Language Features" - vocabulary centered view versus function centered view.
15:37:01 <alanr> q+
15:37:52 <alanr> one reason we had to direct to the "right" document before is that they weren't factored well, IMO
15:39:02 <alanr> q?
15:39:05 <IanH> q+
15:39:44 <alanr> Elisa: Different sets of tags to run in to same set of documents.
15:40:24 <bijan> That was on the proposal as well
15:41:21 <bijan> no links
15:41:44 <pfps> I though that short was the basic idea here
15:41:50 <alanr> Elisa: Semantic web reference card, not quite right. Too short for what she was looking for.
15:41:59 <bijan> Conrad spoke very highly of : http://www.w3.org/TR/owl-ref/#appC
15:42:03 <bijan> whcih seems similar in detail
15:42:19 <bijan> Appendixes B and C
15:42:20 <IanH> q?
15:42:29 <alanr> ack alanr
15:42:33 <alanr> q+ 
15:43:24 <alanr> Ian: problem with overview "fell between two stools" (?) stools = thing to sit on, presumably ;-)
15:43:54 <alanr> Ian: Likes SW reference card.
15:44:04 <alanr> Elisa wants one like this that's alive.
15:44:08 <bijan> Look at the link to the section of the reference
15:44:17 <bijan> See: http://www.w3.org/TR/owl-ref/#appC
15:44:28 <alanr> Elisa: Maybe more than one.
15:44:42 <alanr> Ian: Bit too many things at once.
15:45:44 <bijan> I definitely want to mark up the specs so one can extract and rearrange sections in a smart way...so that other folks can create arbitrary versions (instead of us doing every possible variant)
15:46:03 <alanr> q?
15:46:08 <alanr> ack IanH
15:46:23 <ewallace> The SW reference card is cool.
15:46:34 <bijan> q+
15:46:41 <alanr> Alan: Is typesetting/layout as important?
15:46:43 <IanH> I didn't want to say it wasn't a good effort.
15:47:01 <alanr> Elisa: Important but not sure what ultimate layout it.
15:47:16 <IanH> But it does try to cover an amazing amount of terrain
15:47:45 <alanr> Would like to see 3rd column expanded, 4th with link. 1 to semantics, 1 to mapping etc.
15:47:49 <alanr> q?
15:47:58 <alanr> "coupled with quick start"?
15:48:01 <alanr> ack alanr?
15:48:03 <bijan> ack bijan
15:48:09 <alanr> ack alanr
15:48:15 <bijan> zakim, unmute me
15:48:15 <Zakim> bijan was not muted, bijan
15:48:30 <alanr> q+ to ask what "coupled with quick start"? means
15:48:45 <alanr> s/3rd column/middle column/
15:49:15 <alanr> q?
15:49:27 <alanr> Bijan: Trying to arrange specs to this is even possible.
15:49:32 <alanr> s/to/so
15:50:07 <alanr> ack alanr
15:50:07 <Zakim> alanr, you wanted to ask what "coupled with quick start"? means
15:50:16 <bijan> zakim, mute me
15:50:16 <Zakim> bijan should now be muted
15:50:26 <IanH> q+
15:50:53 <IanH> zakim, unmute me
15:50:53 <Zakim> IanH should no longer be muted
15:51:38 <alanr> Ian: can see quick reference guides but don't know what this has to do with overview.
15:52:24 <alanr> Deb
15:52:45 <bijan> What about the intro of the primer?
15:52:54 <alanr> Deb's audience: People who fund projects who need introductory tests. High level intro to the semantic web and why you care.
15:53:05 <alanr> Elisa want quick guide.
15:53:27 <alanr> In the US have trouble getting people to fund these projects because they don't see the need.
15:54:12 <alanr> In the EU multilingual is more taken, but not here as much. Place where people can grab a couple of paragraphs to justify.
15:54:42 <pfps> do we have a good idea of the totality of what is wanted by Deb?
15:55:50 <bijan> Rec track?
15:56:08 <bijan> -1 to rec track (esp. as a separate document)
15:56:09 <pfps> why rec track?
15:56:19 <IanH> I also wonder why rec track?
15:56:21 <pfps> why separate document?
15:56:33 <bijan> q+
15:56:39 <pfps> q+
15:56:40 <IanH> q-
15:56:50 <Elisa> It needs to have a separate, available, visible link to it - whether or not it's separate.
15:56:54 <alanr> ack Bijan
15:57:28 <ewallace> The quick guide could be an appendix to another of our documents.
15:57:36 <Elisa> It would be fine with me if it isn't rec trak, but is linked on the home page from the documents right up at the top.
15:57:36 <pfps> rec'edness
15:57:53 <alanr> ack pfps
15:57:57 <bijan> zakim, mute me
15:57:57 <Zakim> bijan should now be muted
15:58:24 <alanr> Bijan: Rec track is heavy/expensive
15:58:28 <bijan> And it burdens future working groups!
15:58:28 <alanr> Peter agrees.
15:59:16 <alanr> q?
16:00:12 <bijan> I think we will need some index like thing (and have started on it), but I'm at the moment indifferent to the layout
16:00:41 <pfps> +1 to index - I'm indifferent to whether it is an appendix or something on the home page
16:00:49 <pfps> q+
16:01:18 <alanr> Alan: Looking for consensus on content, 1 pager.
16:01:34 <Elisa> I think layout is important and would like to see it be separate & printable on its own.
16:01:53 <alanr> peter worries about pushback on 1 page displayable anywhere. 
16:02:18 <alanr> q?
16:02:23 <alanr> ack pfps
16:03:06 <bijan> q+
16:03:29 <bijan> zakim, unmute me
16:03:29 <Zakim> bijan should no longer be muted
16:03:53 <alanr> q+ to point out that print version can have variant.
16:06:37 <alanr> ack bijan
16:06:42 <alanr> ack alanr
16:06:42 <Zakim> alanr, you wanted to point out that print version can have variant.
16:08:05 <bijan> Also might be worth asking Tim Finin on how used the semweb card is
16:08:14 <bijan> I do
16:08:16 <bijan> I'll ask
16:08:28 <bijan> Jim had nothing to do with the card
16:08:50 <Elisa> perhaps he would know whether or not folks are using it, though
16:09:13 <IanH> What about Primer for FPWD -- what are we doing about that?
16:09:53 <ewallace> Should we do a review of the Primer pre-pub?
16:10:12 <pfps> I thought that review is needed - we need to identify reviewers
16:10:22 <bijan> Elisa, perhaps...remember UMBC and UMCP aren't hte same institution :)
16:10:27 <bijan> And Jim's at RPI now ;)
16:10:32 <IanH> bye
16:10:32 <Zakim> -Evan_Wallace
16:10:33 <Zakim> -Alan
16:10:34 <Zakim> -bijan
16:10:34 <Zakim> -Elisa_Kendall
16:10:37 <Zakim> -IanH
16:11:01 <alanr> Action: Alan to send note to WG summarizing feeling re: FPWD of Primer. We are going for it
16:11:01 <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-96 - Send note to WG summarizing feeling re: FPWD of Primer. We are going for it [on Alan Ruttenberg - due 2008-03-10].
16:11:10 <alanr> Action: Alan to send cookbook proposal
16:11:10 <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-97 - Send cookbook proposal [on Alan Ruttenberg - due 2008-03-10].
16:11:59 <alanr> Action:  Alan to ask W3C view on "1 page printout?"
16:11:59 <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-98 - Ask W3C view on \"1 page printout?\" [on Alan Ruttenberg - due 2008-03-10].
16:13:20 <bijan> ewallace, you still here?
16:15:38 <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, Peter_Patel-Schneider, in SW_OWL()10:00AM
16:15:41 <Zakim> SW_OWL()10:00AM has ended
16:15:42 <Zakim> Attendees were Peter_Patel-Schneider, Alan, Evan_Wallace, Elisa_Kendall, IanH, bijan
16:21:31 <alanr> rrsagent, draft minues
16:21:31 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'draft minues', alanr.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
16:21:34 <alanr> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:21:34 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/03/03-owl-minutes.html alanr
16:21:46 <alanr> rrsagent, make minutes public
16:21:46 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes public', alanr.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
16:21:59 <alanr> rrsagent, make log world readable
16:21:59 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'make log world readable', alanr.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
16:22:05 <alanr> rrsagent, make log public
16:53:03 <Conrad> Conrad has joined #owl
17:02:24 <Conrad> The phone bridge is saying the conference is resrtricted.
18:10:12 <Zakim> Zakim has left #owl
18:29:47 <alanr> alanr has joined #owl