17:56:23 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #tagmem
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17:56:32 <Stuart> zakim, this wll be TAG
17:56:32 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this wll be TAG', Stuart
17:56:40 <Stuart> zakim, this will be TAG
17:56:40 <Zakim> ok, Stuart; I see TAG_Weekly()1:00PM scheduled to start in 4 minutes
17:58:32 <Zakim> TAG_Weekly()1:00PM has now started
17:58:39 <Zakim> +??P1
17:58:41 <Stuart> zakim, ?? is me
17:58:41 <Zakim> +Stuart; got it
18:00:00 <Zakim> +TimBL
18:00:50 <Zakim> +jar
18:01:14 <Zakim> +Ashok_Malhotra
18:01:15 <jar_> jar_ has joined #tagmem
18:01:29 <raman> raman has joined #tagmem
18:01:37 <raman> someone remind me of the pin?
18:01:50 <ht> zakim, please call ht-781
18:01:50 <Zakim> ok, ht; the call is being made
18:01:51 <Zakim> +Ht
18:01:54 <ht> zakim, what's the code?
18:01:54 <Zakim> the conference code is 0824 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), ht
18:01:57 <Ashok> Ashok has joined #tagmem
18:02:09 <timbl_> timbl_ has joined #tagmem
18:02:13 <ht> TV, See above
18:02:38 <jar> jonathan is here
18:02:52 <timbl_> Zakim, who is on the call?
18:02:52 <Zakim> On the phone I see Stuart, TimBL, jar, Ashok_Malhotra, Ht
18:03:01 <Zakim> +DOrchard
18:03:07 <Zakim> +Raman
18:03:21 <dorchard> dorchard has joined #tagmem
18:03:50 <dorchard> scribe: dorchard
18:03:51 <ht> Call: TAG telcon
18:03:55 <Zakim> +Norm
18:03:56 <dorchard> scribenick: dorchard
18:03:57 <ht> Scribe: David Orchard
18:04:09 <ht> Chair: Stuart Williams
18:04:11 <dorchard> zakim, who's on the phone?
18:04:11 <Zakim> On the phone I see Stuart, TimBL, jar, Ashok_Malhotra, Ht, DOrchard, Raman, Norm
18:04:11 <Stuart> zakim, who is here
18:04:13 <Zakim> Stuart, you need to end that query with '?'
18:04:14 <Stuart> zakim, who is here?
18:04:14 <Zakim> On the phone I see Stuart, TimBL, jar, Ashok_Malhotra, Ht, DOrchard, Raman, Norm
18:04:17 <Zakim> On IRC I see dorchard, timbl_, Ashok, raman, jar, RRSAgent, Zakim, Stuart, DanC_lap, Norm, ht, trackbot-ng
18:04:18 <dorchard> scribe: dorchard
18:04:24 <Noah> Noah has joined #tagmem
18:04:42 <ht> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2008/02/07-agenda
18:04:48 <timbl_> DanC_lap? Tag?
18:04:53 <Zakim> +[IBMCambridge]
18:05:39 <Noah> zakim, [IBMCambridge] is me
18:05:39 <Zakim> +Noah; got it
18:06:14 <dorchard> RESOLVED: minutes of Jan 31st 2008 approved
18:06:51 <Zakim> +DanC
18:06:52 <dorchard> topic: next meeting
18:07:20 <dorchard> RESOLVED: next telcon Feb 14th
18:07:45 <dorchard> TOPIC: upcoming regrets
18:07:56 <dorchard> Noah, HT, Ashok regrets for March 6th
18:08:21 <dorchard> topic: telcon rescheduling
18:09:31 <Noah> I also note that the current time came up as least objectionable.
18:11:20 <Norm> q+
18:12:24 <dorchard> much discussion of the scheduling
18:12:53 <Norm> ack norm
18:13:54 <daveorchard> daveorchard has joined #tagmem
18:13:55 <jar> i thought about suggesting this too (different times on alternate weeks)
18:14:13 <timbl_> DanC?
18:15:38 <ht> What about two one-hour calls?
18:19:32 <Norm> This is starting to consume a lot of time, I propose that Stuart run the survey again looking for two 1 hour slots
18:21:41 <daveorchard> I think we ought to couple the wbs survey with some online surveys to win facebook scratch 'n win points.
18:22:12 <daveorchard> skw: Ashok will be flexible in the current slot, same for raman.
18:22:36 <daveorchard> ... as a group we'll commit to reviewing if it is unworkable for Ashok
18:22:44 <daveorchard> scribe: daveorchard
18:22:48 <Ashok> Thanks!
18:22:50 <daveorchard> scribenick: daveorchard
18:23:00 <daveorchard> I think we ought to couple the wbs survey with some online surveys to win facebook scratch 'n win points.
18:23:07 <daveorchard> skw: Ashok will be flexible in the current slot, same for raman.
18:23:13 <daveorchard>  ... as a group we'll commit to reviewing if it is unworkable for Ashok
18:23:44 <daveorchard> RESOLVED: keep time slot as is 
18:24:11 <daveorchard> topic: URNsAndRegistries-50
18:25:21 <daveorchard> discussion about how to send comments to oasis, email list vs web form.
18:25:33 <daveorchard> ashok: supposedly there is a form
18:25:50 <daveorchard> noah: why don't you look for the form, and if you find it, send our message in.
18:27:02 <daveorchard> skw: comments are probably broader than the single document
18:27:24 <daveorchard> ... and we might do a review of the document collection
18:27:43 <daveorchard> ht: I'll be looking into this
18:28:41 <daveorchard> topic: passwordsintheclear
18:29:07 <daveorchard> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2008Jan/0048.html
18:30:35 <daveorchard> daveorchard: this finding is about passwords in the clear, not passwords in general
18:31:17 <daveorchard> danc: the editor has considered this, i'm fine with moving on.
18:32:22 <daveorchard> latest version is http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/passwordsInTheClear-52-20080124.html
18:33:04 <daveorchard> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/pw52-diff-20071108-20080124.html
18:34:55 <Noah> Looks to me like the latest undiffed is http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/passwordsInTheClear-52-20080124.html.  The metadata in the diff URI above seems to confirm that.  Right?
18:35:23 <daveorchard> yes
18:35:32 <Noah> tnx
18:35:36 <Norm> ScribeNick: Norm
18:35:54 <Norm> DO: Ashok, I think you'd be expanding the scope to talk about alternatives to passwords.
18:35:57 <Norm> AM: Yes.
18:36:03 <Norm> DO: I'd prefer to keep this just about passwords.
18:36:10 <Norm> Dave describes some of the history.
18:36:34 <Norm> DO: I'm hoping we can just do a few things and call it finished, not make it bigger.
18:36:43 <jar> q+ jar to suggest a compromise
18:37:02 <Norm> DO: I think we're close to consensus on the message that's embodied in the current finding.
18:37:29 <Norm> JR: Given that we don't know who's going to read it, perhaps a phrase or sentence in the abstract could point out that there are other alternatives.
18:37:34 <Norm> General sounds of agreement
18:37:49 <Norm> DO: "Note that there are technologies other than passwords for enabling the transmission of secure informaton"
18:37:53 <Stuart> q?
18:38:01 <Stuart> ack jar
18:38:01 <Zakim> jar, you wanted to suggest a compromise
18:38:04 <Noah> OK, I think the contents to http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/passwordsInTheClear-52.html and http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/passwordsInTheClear are now correct.
18:38:30 <Noah> ...and that makes the link from the list of Draft TAG Findings work too.
18:38:35 <Norm> Stuart: My comments were mostly editorial, I'm happy to leave them to Dave's discretion.
18:38:50 <Norm> DO: Sorry, I didn't get to them yet.
18:39:19 <Norm> SW: With respect to the paragraph about digest authentication and salted hashes, I wasn't sure what it was trying to tell me. That might be a technical comment. 
18:39:52 <Norm> DO: I thought that was just a note of warning: digest does require that both parties have access to the same value.
18:40:00 <Norm> ...Maybe there needs to be some tie in there.
18:40:17 <Norm> SW quotes the paragraph.
18:40:38 <Norm> SW: I can't tell if the last part of that paragraph is a good thing or a bad thing.
18:41:06 <Norm> DO: I think it's saying that if you come along afterwards, and you've got the password stored, and you want to talk to someone else, you can't extract the password again. Both parties have to agree up front.
18:41:48 <Norm> DO: I'll check with Hal and add a sentence for clarification.
18:42:30 <Norm> DC: I know the history. As written it sounded just written to me. Most UNIX systems store the password salted and encrypted. That's not compatible with the digest algorithm and that was a big deployment problem.
18:42:38 <Norm> ...In the digest algorithm, the server actually has to have the password.
18:44:00 <Norm> Some additional discussion
18:44:25 <Norm> DC: Maybe it'd be simpler to say that many systems store salted, encrypted password and those just can't be used with digest authentication.
18:44:42 <daveorchard> Many systems store passwords as a salted hash and it is not possible to use such passwords in digest
18:44:58 <Norm> SW: That'd be fine, now I understand the point.
18:46:07 <Norm> NM: I don't think it's the passwords you can't use. I think it's that it's not possible for the server to compute the digest if its passwords are stored as salted hashes.
18:46:35 <Norm> DO: And it can't go either way, it can't digest or undigest.
18:47:23 <Norm> SW: I had one more technical comment. On section 3, the last paragraph repeats advice and examples from section 2. I suggest deleting them, though that might make the document end abruptly.
18:47:35 <Norm> ...There's also a SHOULD good practice with some explanation about why it's a SHOULD.
18:48:01 <Norm> ...Instead, you could say "User agents MUST mask passwords with respect to their current modality"
18:49:05 <Norm> DO: The problem is that one of our examples from the face-to-face, the Apple Wifi access I think, you have a little toggle that let's you display or not display. That works for long passwords, for example.
18:49:33 <Norm> SW: I'm not wedded to it, I was just trying to get to something stronger than SHOULD. But I'm not going to die in a ditch for it.
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18:50:19 <Norm> DO: This is about soliciting the password, that's not quite the same as transmitting it in the clear.
18:50:26 <Norm> ...I could tie them together...
18:50:51 <Norm> SW: I thought you were repeating the same example, but you're telling me there's a subtle difference.
18:51:07 <Norm> DO: They're completely different in that sense.
18:51:21 <Norm> SW: Perhaps I should have noticed that, but I didn't. Broadly, I'm happy for you to just respond how you see fit.
18:52:34 <Norm> DO: We should solicit feedback from the security folks, what about the HTTP WG at the IETF.
18:52:43 <Norm> SW: And HTML5, given that we're talking about form fields?
18:52:52 <Norm> DO: And the encryption folks. Any other suggestions?
18:53:04 <Norm> NW: That covers the folks I can think of.
18:53:11 <Norm> ACTION: orchard to revise the finding and publish it directly, unless he feels the need for more review before publication
18:53:11 <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-99 - Revise the finding and publish it directly, unless he feels the need for more review before publication [on David Orchard - due 2008-02-14].
18:53:38 <timbl_> trackbot-ng, who is here?
18:53:57 <Norm> ScribeNick: daveorchard 
18:54:01 <timbl_> trackbot-ng, status?
18:54:51 <DanC_lap> close action-89
18:54:51 <trackbot-ng> ACTION-89 Note the old submission about logout button under passwordsInTheClear closed
18:54:54 <DanC_lap> action-25?
18:54:54 <trackbot-ng> ACTION-25 -- T.V. Raman to summarize history of DTD/namespace/mimetype version practice, including XHTML, SOAP, and XSLT. -- due 2008-01-31 -- OPEN
18:54:54 <trackbot-ng> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/25
18:55:17 <DanC_lap> q+ to propose to witdraw the uri testing idea
18:55:21 <daveorchard> planning on doing action 25 in time for reading before f2f
18:57:04 <DanC_lap> ack danc
18:57:04 <Zakim> DanC_lap, you wanted to propose to witdraw the uri testing idea
18:57:06 <daveorchard> ht: action 33 will hopefully be done in time for f2f
18:57:11 <DanC_lap> action-55?
18:57:11 <trackbot-ng> ACTION-55 -- Dan Connolly to work with SKW on a few paragraphs of thinking around a URI testing group (IG/WG/XG?) -- due 2008-01-24 -- OPEN
18:57:11 <trackbot-ng> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/55
18:57:54 <DanC_lap> close action-55
18:57:54 <trackbot-ng> ACTION-55 Work with SKW on a few paragraphs of thinking around a URI testing group (IG/WG/XG?) closed
18:57:57 <DanC_lap> withdrawn
18:58:18 <DanC_lap> action-95?
18:58:18 <trackbot-ng> ACTION-95 -- Dan Connolly to ask SWEO working group for one week extension for review of their document -- due 2008-01-24 -- CLOSED
18:58:18 <trackbot-ng> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/95
18:58:33 <DanC_lap> action-93?
18:58:33 <trackbot-ng> ACTION-93 -- Henry S. Thompson to review EXI WDs since 20 Dec -- due 2008-01-17 -- OPEN
18:58:33 <trackbot-ng> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/93
19:00:02 <daveorchard> norm: will do 38 in time for f2f
19:00:06 <DanC_lap> action-92?
19:00:06 <trackbot-ng> ACTION-92 -- Tim Berners-Lee to consider whether or not he wants to post an issue re: POWDER/rules -- due 2007-12-20 -- OPEN
19:00:06 <trackbot-ng> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/92
19:02:04 <daveorchard> ht: on 73, xhtml wg said we're going to next state in November, and then nothing happened,and then they went to next state yesterday
19:02:10 <DanC_lap> (norm, the db has you overdue on review of curies; my vague memory says otherwise)
19:02:47 <DanC_lap> close action-73
19:02:47 <trackbot-ng> ACTION-73 Contact the XHTML 2 WG about the fact that the TAG has been experimenting with modularisation closed
19:02:51 <DanC_lap> withdrawn
19:04:09 <Noah> Speaking of actions that are not quite overdue, the long-promised draft of self-describing Web is likely to be out within the next day or two.
19:04:22 <Noah> Should give plenty of opportunity for people to read it for the F2F.
19:04:27 <daveorchard> skw: there is also a view that shows actions soon to be completed..
19:04:50 <daveorchard> agenda: Vancouver F2F Agenda Request for Agenda Items 
19:05:59 <Noah> q+ to say that after we're done with the versioning thread, I'd like to mention that a self-describing Web draft should be out within a couple of days
19:06:34 <Stuart> ack Noah
19:06:34 <Zakim> Noah, you wanted to say that after we're done with the versioning thread, I'd like to mention that a self-describing Web draft should be out within a couple of days
19:07:10 <daveorchard> dorchard: I like versioning, urnsregistries, web app state, web arch vol 2
19:07:48 <daveorchard> noah: self-describing web draft coming out.
19:13:00 <DanC_lap> if the TAG is considering discussing state foo, my input is: yes please let's, and let's look at the "offline applications and data synchronization" HTML WG requirements issue <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/16> while we're at it
19:13:03 <daveorchard> raman: will produce something for application-state-60
19:13:11 <DanC_lap> q+
19:14:31 <Stuart> As understand it raman will generate material for webApplicationState-60 in advance of the F2F.
19:14:50 <daveorchard> noah: what about dave's work on state?
19:14:58 <DanC_lap> Noah, I don't know the relationship between the HTML WG state work and Dave's drafts; that's why I want ftf discussion.
19:16:36 <Stuart> In the earlier conversation Dave and I thought we were talking about ACTION-25 and Raman thought we were talking about ACTION-91.
19:17:17 <Stuart> I believe that we have already agreed to close ACTION-25 with reference to Norm's bog article on implit namespaces.
19:18:07 <Stuart> close action-25
19:18:08 <trackbot-ng> ACTION-25 summarize history of DTD/namespace/mimetype version practice, including XHTML, SOAP, and XSLT. closed
19:18:50 <daveorchard> does norm's blog cover all of action 25?
19:19:06 <Stuart> Norm?
19:19:16 <Zakim> -Ht
19:20:19 <daveorchard> raman: offline gives you the possibility of doing asynch other than xmlhttprequest
19:20:24 <daveorchard> raman: asynch ala email
19:20:52 <daveorchard> noah: if you step back far enough and look at offline systems
19:21:23 <daveorchard> ... the webby systems seem to have assymetric state, where the state lives in the web
19:21:41 <daveorchard> ... vs systems like Notes where the client has fully featured state.
19:23:05 <daveorchard> skw: jar, can we bring aswww to table?
19:23:38 <daveorchard> jar: yes
19:23:50 <daveorchard> skw: I'll add that to the f2f agenda
19:23:55 <daveorchard> skw: tbl?
19:24:36 <daveorchard> tbl: wonder how long aswww should be separate and when to surface
19:24:49 <Stuart> s/aswww/awwsw/
19:24:53 <Stuart> :-)
19:24:59 <DanC_lap> (a 5 to 10 minute present-only update on AWWSW would work for me.)
19:24:59 <daveorchard> jar: the kinds of confusions we have are interesting
19:25:42 <daveorchard> I'm interested in this, and would be glad to hear about confusions, 30, 60 mins or more.
19:25:49 <DanC_lap> (I'm happy to spend 3 days in AWWSW ;-)
19:26:39 <daveorchard> (I wonder when the TAG will become WWSWAG?) :-)
19:28:41 <Stuart> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/34270/F2FFeb2008-LocalPlans/
19:29:44 <Zakim> -Raman
19:29:47 <Zakim> -Ashok_Malhotra
19:29:51 <Zakim> -TimBL
19:29:55 <Zakim> -jar
19:29:57 <Zakim> -Stuart
19:29:57 <Norm> The best way to get from YVR to the Opus is a cab, right?
19:29:58 <Zakim> -Noah
19:30:34 <daveorchard> Norm: yes
19:30:56 <Zakim> -Norm
19:33:15 <jar_> jar_ has joined #tagmem
19:34:39 <Zakim> -DOrchard
19:35:33 <daveorchard> zakim, generate minutes
19:35:33 <Zakim> I don't understand 'generate minutes', daveorchard
19:35:42 <daveorchard> zakim, please generate minutes
19:35:42 <Zakim> I don't understand 'please generate minutes', daveorchard
19:35:52 <daveorchard> zakim, make minutes world readable
19:35:52 <Zakim> I don't understand 'make minutes world readable', daveorchard
19:36:01 <daveorchard> sigh
19:37:22 <Stuart> Stuart has joined #tagmem
19:37:33 <Stuart> rrsagent, make logs public
19:39:39 <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, DanC, in TAG_Weekly()1:00PM
19:39:41 <Zakim> TAG_Weekly()1:00PM has ended
19:39:42 <Zakim> Attendees were Stuart, TimBL, jar, Ashok_Malhotra, Ht, DOrchard, Raman, Norm, Noah, DanC
19:40:25 <daveorchard> thx stuart
21:59:00 <Zakim> Zakim has left #tagmem