13:15:16 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #forms
13:15:16 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/02/01-forms-irc
13:15:22 <Steven> rrsagent, make log public
13:15:30 <nick> but to be save maybe we can allocate 12 ports...
13:15:36 <Steven> Meeting: Forms WG Virtual Day
13:15:41 <Steven> Chair: John Boyer
13:19:04 <Steven> zakim, room for 15 at 09:00 for 150 mins?
13:19:05 <Zakim> ok, Steven; conference Team_(forms)14:00Z scheduled with code 26631 (CONF1) at 09:00 for 150 minutes until 1630Z
13:19:22 <Steven> zakim, code?
13:19:22 <Zakim> the conference code is 26631 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), Steven
13:19:58 <Steven> Steven has changed the topic to: Code is 26631 (CONF1)
13:20:26 <Steven> Steven has changed the topic to: Zakim dial in code is 26631 (CONF1)
13:35:03 <wellsk> wellsk has joined #forms
13:37:38 <nic1> nic1 has joined #forms
13:38:07 <Steven> hi all
13:38:17 <wellsk> Hi Steven!
13:46:59 <CharlieW> CharlieW has joined #forms
13:47:11 <CharlieW> Hi everybody!
13:47:15 <Steven> howdy
13:47:21 <wellsk> Hi Charlie
13:47:42 <CharlieW> hey steve, keith...will call in shortly...are we ok to use zakim?
13:47:55 <CharlieW> sorry, steven
13:47:55 <Steven> Yep:
13:47:58 <CharlieW> k
13:48:01 <Steven> zakim, code?
13:48:01 <Zakim> the conference code is 26631 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), Steven
13:48:11 <CharlieW> great
13:48:20 <Steven> It's reserved for 150 mins (first half)
13:49:06 <Steven> I thought I'd wait for reserving the second half until we know how many are really coming
13:49:16 <CharlieW> sounds right
13:50:18 <nick> nick has joined #forms
13:50:22 <CharlieW> i'm in dallas
13:50:34 <CharlieW> hotel rm
13:52:59 <Zakim> Team_(forms)14:00Z has now started
13:53:06 <Zakim> +??P2
13:53:34 <CharlieW> zakim, P2 is CharlieW
13:53:34 <Zakim> sorry, CharlieW, I do not recognize a party named 'P2'
13:53:44 <CharlieW> zakim, ??P2 is CharlieW
13:53:44 <Zakim> +CharlieW; got it
13:53:48 <Steven> I brought a speaker phone with me, only to discover it is 230V only.
13:53:54 <CharlieW> ahg
13:53:58 <Steven> So I'll be hanging on a regular phone all day too
13:54:12 <CharlieW> i just called in using the hotel speakerphone, but it's breaking up so will probably use my headset
13:57:02 <Steven> WHich web interface are we using, Yugaw or whatever it's called, or another?
13:57:15 <CharlieW> not sure...let's decide when folks get on
13:57:20 <Steven> ok
13:57:22 <CharlieW> mark and i have both sent out links
13:57:25 <klotz> klotz has joined #forms
13:57:26 <CharlieW> not sure which is better
13:57:43 <CharlieW> the one i have can only originate sharing from windows, but anybody can see
13:57:54 <nick> Charlie you should say SameTime don't you ;)
13:57:56 <John_Boyer> John_Boyer has joined #forms
13:58:17 <John_Boyer> zakim, code?
13:58:17 <Zakim> the conference code is 26631 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), John_Boyer
13:58:24 <Zakim> +wellsk
13:58:37 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617
13:58:37 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made
13:58:38 <Zakim> +Steven
13:59:00 <Zakim> +??P11
14:00:03 <Zakim> + +1.978.399.aaaa
14:00:16 <John_Boyer> zakim, I am +1.978
14:00:16 <Zakim> +John_Boyer; got it
14:00:17 <wellsk> zakim, who is here?
14:00:17 <Zakim> On the phone I see CharlieW, wellsk, Steven, ??P11, John_Boyer
14:00:18 <Zakim> On IRC I see John_Boyer, klotz, nick, CharlieW, wellsk, RRSAgent, Zakim, Steven, trackbot-ng
14:01:43 <klotz> I have to leave 11:25 as I have to 400 elementary school students (science fair) but will be back for 10.
14:03:15 <Steven> I don't understand your last message Leigh
14:03:19 <Steven> Time warp?
14:03:28 <markbirbeck> markbirbeck has joined #forms
14:03:55 <nick> zakim who is here?
14:04:13 <nick> zakim, who is here?
14:04:13 <Zakim> On the phone I see CharlieW, wellsk, Steven, ??P11, John_Boyer
14:04:14 <Zakim> On IRC I see markbirbeck, John_Boyer, klotz, nick, CharlieW, wellsk, RRSAgent, Zakim, Steven, trackbot-ng
14:04:36 <nick> zakim, I am P11
14:04:36 <Zakim> sorry, nick, I do not see a party named 'P11'
14:04:43 <markbirbeck> zakim, code?
14:04:43 <Zakim> the conference code is 26631 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), markbirbeck
14:04:50 <nick> zakim, I am ??P11
14:04:50 <Zakim> +nick; got it
14:05:11 <markbirbeck> markbirbeck has left #forms
14:05:28 <markbirbeck> markbirbeck has joined #forms
14:05:31 <nick> fine for me
14:05:34 <markbirbeck> zakim, code?
14:05:34 <Zakim> the conference code is 26631 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), markbirbeck
14:06:22 <Zakim> +Leigh_Klotz
14:08:47 <klotz> zakim, who is here
14:08:47 <Zakim> klotz, you need to end that query with '?'
14:08:50 <klotz> zakim, who is here?
14:08:50 <Zakim> On the phone I see CharlieW, wellsk, Steven, nick, John_Boyer, Leigh_Klotz
14:08:52 <Zakim> On IRC I see markbirbeck, John_Boyer, klotz, nick, CharlieW, wellsk, RRSAgent, Zakim, Steven, trackbot-ng
14:10:43 <Steven> mark?
14:10:52 <Steven> Which webconference are we going to use?
14:10:52 <markbirbeck> coming...
14:11:03 <Steven> Yabadaba or the other one?
14:11:10 <markbirbeck> up to you...Yugman is running now, if you want to use it.
14:11:17 <CharlieW> is yugma able to share from any client?
14:11:17 <Steven> ok
14:11:19 <Steven> coming
14:11:22 <markbirbeck> yes
14:11:33 <CharlieW> k, let's go with that then
14:12:29 <Steven> The system is pretty straightforward...just go to yugma.com and click 
14:12:29 <Steven> on 'Join a session'. You'll then be prompted to create an account. My 
14:12:29 <Steven> premium account does allow us to skip that step, but to do that I'd 
14:12:29 <Steven> need to invite everyone individually, so it seems a lot easier for 
14:12:31 <Steven> everyone to just create a free account. 
14:12:33 <Steven>   
14:12:35 <Steven> As part of the sign-up you put in the session ID which is 203-299-949.
14:13:37 <nick> wxhat is de sessiosn id?
14:13:44 <wellsk> 203-299-949
14:14:04 <CharlieW> crashes my firefox
14:14:22 <nick> it works for me
14:14:32 <CharlieW> leopard or tiger?
14:14:46 <markbirbeck> tiger here
14:14:53 <CharlieW> leopard here
14:14:55 <markbirbeck> Do people still use Firefox?
14:14:58 <markbirbeck> ;)
14:15:04 <CharlieW> it's the jvm
14:15:08 <CharlieW> same either way
14:15:23 <CharlieW> i'll have to use windows under parallels, hang on
14:15:26 <nick> it is quite lagging ....
14:15:41 <Steven> I'm on
14:16:03 <Zakim> +??P13
14:16:07 <markbirbeck> zakim, i am ?
14:16:07 <Zakim> +markbirbeck; got it
14:23:50 <John_Boyer> zakim, who is here?
14:23:50 <Zakim> On the phone I see CharlieW, wellsk, Steven, nick, John_Boyer, Leigh_Klotz, markbirbeck
14:23:53 <Zakim> On IRC I see markbirbeck, John_Boyer, klotz, nick, CharlieW, wellsk, RRSAgent, Zakim, Steven, trackbot-ng
14:25:47 <klotz> i will start
14:25:58 <Steven-eee> Steven-eee has joined #forms
14:26:03 <John_Boyer> Scribe: Leigh
14:26:06 <CharlieW> moi aussi
14:26:10 <klotz> agenda?
14:26:16 <John_Boyer> scribenick: klotz
14:26:24 <John_Boyer> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/Agenda_Feb._1%2C_2008_%28virtual_day%29
14:26:39 <John_Boyer> Chair: John
14:26:51 <Steven> Steven has changed the topic to: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/Agenda_Feb._1%2C_2008_(virtual_day)
14:26:52 <John_Boyer> Meeting: Forms WG Face to Face Virtual Day
14:28:17 <John_Boyer> Regrets: Uli
14:32:22 <nic1> nic1 has joined #forms
14:32:52 <John_Boyer> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2008Jan/0072.html
14:33:17 <John_Boyer> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2008Jan/0071.html
14:41:12 <John_Boyer> <select1 ref="payment/methods/@method">
14:41:27 <John_Boyer> <label>Choose method:</label>
14:41:31 <John_Boyer> <item>
14:41:36 <John_Boyer> <label>
14:41:40 <John_Boyer> <value>
14:41:44 <John_Boyer> <group>
14:41:48 <John_Boyer> ...
14:41:51 <John_Boyer> </group>
14:41:53 <John_Boyer> </item>
14:42:16 <John_Boyer> This is what I think Mark is proposing
14:42:57 <John_Boyer> Rather than putting switch/case inside select/select1
14:51:37 <John_Boyer> <payment>
14:52:12 <John_Boyer> <methods method="VISA">
14:52:21 <John_Boyer> <Visa>
14:52:23 <John_Boyer> <number>
14:52:25 <John_Boyer> </Visa>
14:53:36 <John_Boyer> <mastercarddata>
14:53:40 <John_Boyer> <number>
14:53:44 <John_Boyer> <expiry>
14:54:59 <John_Boyer> </masterdata>
14:55:01 <John_Boyer> ...
14:59:45 <nic1> you can only show the content of the case that is selected, bcz not selected cases are non relevant
15:00:09 <nic1> this will not allow to implement the  firefox example
15:00:20 <nic1> that markB gave us a minute ago
15:15:07 <Steven-eee> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/2008/screen20080201.PNG
15:16:05 <nic1> I like this much more then adding the extra switch
15:19:01 <nic1> I had the same problem as charlie
15:24:45 <Steven> Do we really need itemset?
15:25:08 <Steven> Can't we just say that <item nodeset="..."> does the job of itemset
15:25:29 <John_Boyer> Could do, but then the case is still inside the item, so you still get case repetition
15:25:31 <CharlieW> i still don't like calling the element <case>
15:25:46 <Steven> +1 to charlie
15:26:04 <Zakim> -markbirbeck
15:26:07 <Steven> take 5 for coffee
15:26:07 <John_Boyer> take 5
15:26:26 <klotz> +1 to sausage sandwich
15:36:14 <wellsk> keith is here
15:36:38 <wellsk> apps
15:52:50 <nic1> I like the case in select and switch because the the case does the relevance behavior and the element around it (select, select1, switch)
15:53:10 <nic1> does the switching
15:53:53 <John_Boyer> <switch ref="some/tree">
15:54:03 <John_Boyer> <select1> .. </select1>
15:54:09 <John_Boyer> <case>
15:54:10 <John_Boyer> <case>
15:54:12 <John_Boyer> <case>
15:55:26 <John_Boyer> <switch ref="some/tree">
15:55:36 <John_Boyer> <select1 ref="@choice">
15:55:45 <John_Boyer> <item> label value...
15:55:48 <John_Boyer> </select1>
15:56:02 <John_Boyer> <case> label value
15:56:07 <John_Boyer> <case> label value
15:56:43 <John_Boyer> </switch>
15:57:02 <nic1> I find it a bit strange
15:58:48 <nic1> I don't understand why the select needs be inside the case
15:59:14 <nic1> and how you con be sure that the same values are in the cases
16:00:55 <nic1> ack me
16:02:14 <Zakim> -nick
16:02:31 <nick> nick has joined #forms
16:02:36 <nick> sorry network dropped out
16:02:52 <nick> zakim, code?
16:02:52 <Zakim> the conference code is 26631 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), nick
16:03:10 <Zakim> +??P8
16:03:22 <nick> zakim, I am ??P8
16:03:22 <Zakim> +nick; got it
16:03:38 <Steven> zakim, mute me
16:03:38 <Zakim> Steven should now be muted
16:04:15 <nick> nick has joined #forms
16:04:59 <John_Boyer> <switch ref="payment/methods">
16:05:13 <John_Boyer> <input ref="@method"> ...
16:05:18 <John_Boyer> <case>
16:05:20 <John_Boyer> <case>
16:05:21 <John_Boyer> <case>
16:13:52 <John_Boyer> <switch ref="payment/method">
16:14:04 <John_Boyer> <xyzzy ref="@method">
16:14:07 <John_Boyer> <case>
16:14:08 <John_Boyer> <case>
16:14:35 <John_Boyer> Leigh says do the same thing as upload
16:14:45 <klotz> <switch ref="payment/method">
16:14:49 <klotz> <xyzzy ref="@method">
16:14:57 <klotz> <select1>...</select1>
16:15:00 <klotz> </xyzzy>
16:15:03 <klotz> <case>...</case>
16:16:03 <wellsk> ha
16:17:52 <Steven> ack me
16:21:50 <Zakim> -Leigh_Klotz
16:22:12 <klotz> http://xformstest.org/2008-02-01.txt
16:22:25 <nick> minutes?
16:22:31 <John_Boyer> yes
16:22:50 <John_Boyer> Scribe: Steven
16:22:50 <Steven> Scribe: Steven
16:23:29 <Steven> John: Ten mins to go, can we design a name in that time?
16:23:59 <Steven> ... the reason I suggested 'state' was that I use that name on an attribute now
16:24:57 <Steven> Steven: How about 'using'
16:25:39 <wellsk> express?
16:26:09 <Steven> John: 'selection'?
16:26:50 <Steven> John: Let's go with 'using' until we find something better
16:27:14 <CharlieW> +0.5
16:27:24 <Steven> lol
16:27:41 <Steven> John: I propose we have enough to consider it for XForms 1.2
16:27:59 <Steven> ACTION: Jboyer write text for switch using
16:27:59 <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-449 - Write text for switch using [on John Boyer - due 2008-02-08].
16:28:22 <Steven> John: Time for the break
16:29:01 <nick> buy
16:29:08 <nick> bey
16:29:12 <Zakim> -nick
16:29:13 <Steven> bi
16:29:19 <John_Boyer> rrsagent, make minutes
16:29:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/01-forms-minutes.html John_Boyer
16:29:19 <Zakim> -Steven
16:29:20 <Zakim> -wellsk
16:29:20 <Zakim> -CharlieW
16:29:24 <Zakim> -John_Boyer
16:29:27 <Zakim> Team_(forms)14:00Z has ended
16:29:30 <Zakim> Attendees were CharlieW, wellsk, Steven, +1.978.399.aaaa, John_Boyer, nick, Leigh_Klotz, markbirbeck
16:29:40 <John_Boyer> will be back in an hour...
16:29:46 <John_Boyer> John_Boyer has left #forms
16:30:17 <Steven> zakim, how manyports are reserved now?
16:30:17 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, Steven.
16:30:27 <Steven> zakim, how many ports are reserved now?
16:30:27 <Zakim> on Fri Feb  1 11:30:00 2008 I see 41 reserved [51 available], 32 ports 30 minutes later [60 available], and 0 ports 60 minutes later [92 available]
16:31:16 <Steven> zakim, room for 10 at 12:30 for 150 mins?
16:31:17 <Zakim> ok, Steven; conference Team_(forms)17:30Z scheduled with code 26631 (CONF1) at 12:30 for 150 minutes until 2000Z
16:31:24 <Steven> same code
16:42:36 <nick> nick has joined #forms
16:54:24 <nick> nick has joined #forms
17:15:47 <ebruchez> ebruchez has joined #forms
17:17:38 <ebruchez> hi there
17:20:47 <wellsk> hi eric -- we will be starting up again about 12:30 EST
17:21:18 <ebruchez> thanks, are we calling zakim?
17:21:52 <nick> yes
17:21:58 <ebruchez> ok
17:21:58 <nick> zakim, code?
17:21:58 <Zakim> the conference code is 26631 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), nick
17:22:10 <ebruchez> thx
17:22:14 <wellsk> yeah -- You didn't need me!
17:22:14 <nick> (not our regular conference code)
17:22:26 <ebruchez> yeah I tried that and was thrown out ;-)
17:27:16 <Zakim> Team_(forms)17:30Z has now started
17:27:22 <Zakim> +wellsk
17:27:44 <wellsk> zakiim, mute me
17:27:50 <wellsk> zakim, mute me
17:27:50 <Zakim> sorry, wellsk, muting is not permitted when only one person is present
17:28:03 <Zakim> +??P2
17:28:18 <ebruchez> are we also joining on Yugma?
17:28:29 <nick> zakim, I am ??P2
17:28:29 <Zakim> +nick; got it
17:29:02 <wellsk> re: yugma, I don't know
17:29:09 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
17:29:16 <ebruchez> zakim, [IP is ebruchez
17:29:16 <Zakim> +ebruchez; got it
17:29:34 <Zakim> +??P4
17:29:45 <CharlieW> zakim, ??P4 is CharlieW
17:29:45 <Zakim> +CharlieW; got it
17:32:12 <wellsk> eric, we were using yugma.com this morning -- you can register for a free acct, and then "join session" 
17:32:31 <wellsk> the session code is 203-299-949
17:32:32 <Zakim> -ebruchez
17:33:12 <Zakim> +??P3
17:33:20 <ebruchez> zakim,  ??P3 is ebruchez
17:33:20 <Zakim> +ebruchez; got it
17:34:02 <John_Boyer> John_Boyer has joined #forms
17:34:06 <John_Boyer> zakim, code?
17:34:06 <Zakim> the conference code is 26631 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), John_Boyer
17:34:19 <Zakim> + +1.978.399.aaaa
17:34:33 <John_Boyer> zakim, I am +1.978
17:34:33 <Zakim> +John_Boyer; got it
17:35:52 <nick> now I'm muted
17:36:04 <Zakim> +??P6
17:36:07 <wellsk> zakim, mute me
17:36:07 <Zakim> wellsk should now be muted
17:36:07 <markbirbeck> zakim, i am ?
17:36:08 <Zakim> +markbirbeck; got it
17:36:28 <nick> it really echo's
17:38:29 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617
17:38:29 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made
17:38:31 <Zakim> +Steven
17:39:34 <markbirbeck> http://eric.van-der-vlist.com/blog/2008/01/31/html-5-turns-documents-into-applications/
17:41:46 <markbirbeck> zakim, mute me
17:41:46 <Zakim> markbirbeck should now be muted
17:42:10 <John_Boyer> Scribe: Steven
17:42:40 <markbirbeck> zakim, unmute me
17:42:40 <Zakim> markbirbeck should no longer be muted
17:43:12 <Steven> Topic: Default trigger
17:44:13 <Steven> John: The idea is to simplify common cases
17:44:39 <Steven> ... but it's not clear if every implementation generates a DOMActivate for [enter] in an <input>
17:46:01 <Steven> Steven: We could define tha an [enter] in an input generates a DOMActivate
17:46:21 <Zakim> +Leigh_Klotz
17:46:42 <Steven> John: But you might have to duplication the action for several controls
17:47:00 <Steven> Steven: Well, the advantage of bubbling is that you can wrap the controls and put the action there
17:48:06 <Steven> Erik: Is the issue just about submission?
17:48:07 <John_Boyer> <group>
17:48:30 <John_Boyer> <action ev:event="DOMActivate"  whatever to say any time in bubble phase>
17:48:49 <John_Boyer> <send> default action
17:49:09 <John_Boyer> But what if the group contains multiple triggers?
17:49:56 <Steven> Steven: You mean that in some cases you would have to stop the bubbling
17:50:07 <Steven> s/bubbling/bubbling?/
17:50:30 <Steven> John: Yes. You can get it to work now, but it is easier to author in HTML
17:50:43 <Steven> ... and it should be as easy as that
17:52:05 <Steven> STeven: Are you trying to capture some patterns in XForms now or just trying to capture the HTML [renter] in input case?
17:52:10 <Steven> John: The latter
17:52:46 <Steven> John: How did it get to be like that?
17:52:59 <Steven> Steven: I think that Netscape did that, and everyone copied them
17:53:32 <Steven> John: How does the Google main page work, where there's two buttons?
17:53:39 <Steven> Steven: There's a lot of script in there
17:54:30 <Steven> Erik: You can do this with script
17:57:50 <nick> 4.4.12 The DOMActivate EventDispatched in response to: the "default action request" for a core  form control, for instance pressing a button or hitting enter.
17:59:12 <Steven> Steven: <input> doesn't take [enter], so the Activate may not even go to the control
17:59:53 <Steven> Leigh: I just tried it on the google page, and it seems to activate the first trigger in lexical order
18:02:08 <Steven> zakim, mute me
18:02:08 <Zakim> Steven should now be muted
18:02:12 <John_Boyer> Scribe: Nick
18:02:18 <John_Boyer> scribenick: nick
18:03:55 <ebruchez> WG members get younger and younger
18:04:45 <nick> markB: Maybe the auther needs to add a form element and add an action handler
18:05:03 <nick> JohnB: Or maybe an id of the button that needs to be triggered
18:06:19 <nick> JohnB: How do we now if the user wants to trigger the default one, with some controls it is obvious
18:06:28 <nick> .. for others it isn't
18:07:26 <nick> MarkB: Maybe each control has to say if it wants to buble the event up
18:07:43 <nick> John: But what if you hit a button
18:08:10 <nick> MarkB: But should it buble if you hit a button, to activate the default handler
18:08:48 <nick> John: You can use the tagname of the target
18:09:05 <Steven> zakim, unmute me
18:09:05 <Zakim> Steven should no longer be muted
18:09:43 <nick> Charlie: we can maybe add extra payload
18:10:27 <nick> Charlie: a field that indicates if default action is taken
18:11:25 <nick> John: Maybe we need a different event
18:11:35 <nick> John: xforms-default-action
18:11:48 <Steven> zakim, mute me
18:11:48 <Zakim> Steven should now be muted
18:12:14 <nick> John: You can then write a handler at any level in the UI
18:12:26 <nick> John: the handler can stop his propagation
18:12:59 <Steven> s/his/its/
18:13:45 <nick> John: The attribute that points to the trigger can also be on a switch, group
18:15:30 <nick> John: I'm focussing on a form or subform that can indicate a default submsission
18:16:07 <Steven> I think we need to be able to specify what a return in an input does
18:16:14 <Steven> it's not only about submission
18:16:15 <nick> John: But it is more general, bcz. you can write a handler on every level
18:16:17 <Steven> ack me
18:17:25 <nick> Steven: I think we have this already, the only problem is that input doesn't generate a DOMActivate
18:17:32 <markbirbeck_> markbirbeck_ has joined #forms
18:17:58 <nick> Leigh: Select1 generates also a DOMAcivate and you want to submit the form when you select something
18:18:25 <John_Boyer> Suppose we have <group defaultcontrol="sometriggerID">
18:18:45 <John_Boyer> Then various controls like input could dispatch xforms-default
18:18:50 <John_Boyer> when you hit enter
18:18:51 <nick> ack, me
18:19:56 <nick> Steven: so input should not generate DOMActivate but another event
18:20:10 <markbirbeck> markbirbeck has joined #forms
18:20:14 <nick> Nick: And use our existing eventing framework
18:20:38 <ebruchez> XForms 1.1 says "An example was added to show the use of a DOMActivate handler on an input to automatically initiate a submission once a user enters and commits input, such as a search query."
18:20:48 <ebruchez> so we would undo that in 1.1?
18:22:27 <ebruchez> http://www.w3.org/TR/xforms11/#rpm-event-sequences
18:22:30 <nick> John: It is just simplification with attributes, a shortcut for the action handlers, there is also the problem that we don't allow actions as child as for example switch. Then you have to use an event handler with target 
18:23:24 <nick> Erik: There are good cases for DOMActivate
18:23:27 <ebruchez> http://www.w3.org/TR/xforms11/#intro-diffs-ui
18:25:45 <nick> MarkB: Input generating a DOMActivate is verry handy, and there are forms with no trigger so targetting a trigger isn't always possible
18:25:55 <John_Boyer> http://www.w3.org/TR/xforms11/#ui-input
18:26:21 <markbirbeck_> markbirbeck_ has joined #forms
18:27:41 <nick> Leigh: It is to complicated to solve the problem in complex form, sometimes you just want to go to the next input
18:27:57 <markbirbeck_> zakim, mute me
18:27:57 <Zakim> sorry, markbirbeck_, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
18:28:18 <Steven-eee> Steven-eee has left #forms
18:28:34 <CharlieW> * have to hang up for 5min to call room service, back shortly
18:28:38 <nick> Erik: Some platforms don't have a default button on a dialog
18:28:40 <Zakim> -CharlieW
18:29:11 <nick> John: Mac OS does the same as windows in relation to the default trigger handling
18:29:43 <Steven-ee1> Steven-ee1 has joined #forms
18:31:06 <Zakim> +??P0
18:31:22 <CharlieW> zakim, ??P0 is CharlieW
18:31:22 <Zakim> +CharlieW; got it
18:32:00 <nick> John: Do we want to defer this to a future release
18:32:06 <klotz> in w3m, enter in text input allows you to edit the field; in lynx, it tabs to the next field.
18:32:08 <John_Boyer> http://www.w3.org/TR/xforms11/#ui-input
18:32:16 <nick> Steven: I tink we should try to solve it
18:32:18 <CharlieW> +1 on it being important
18:32:38 <nick> John: The simple case is already coverred in XForms 11
18:34:08 <nick> John: What is verry deficult to solve : if you have a group of controls that has special default handling
18:34:17 <markbirbeck> markbirbeck has joined #forms
18:34:47 <Steven> Oops, no errata for XForms 1.1?
18:35:52 <markbirbeck_> markbirbeck_ has joined #forms
18:35:58 <nick> John: Do we get DOMActivate when we make a selection in a select1
18:36:48 <John_Boyer> http://www.w3.org/TR/xforms11/#sequence-for-select
18:39:11 <CharlieW> it's particularly important for things we don't have a convenient way to do...
18:39:26 <CharlieW> boil down the inconvenient combinations of markup into a new simplified solution
18:39:53 <CharlieW> but mark is suggesting we start from an example of how we'd do it today, concretely which i think is a great idea
18:41:48 <nick> John: A select one minimal, tab into it, hit space, expand, select an item, hit enter, I don't want to do the default submission
18:42:14 <nick> John: Go back to the select1 hit enter, now I want to submit
18:42:50 <nick> MarkB: Maybe we need to tune when DOMActivate is sent in Select1 but this is a small change
18:43:12 <CharlieW> it's a more evolve through experimentation and drive down into simplified markup
18:45:25 <John_Boyer> <group>
18:45:28 <John_Boyer> <label>
18:46:16 <John_Boyer> <send ev:event="DOMActivate">
18:46:28 <John_Boyer> <input>
18:46:30 <John_Boyer> <input>
18:46:32 <John_Boyer> <input>
18:46:38 <John_Boyer> </group>
18:47:35 <markbirbeck> markbirbeck has joined #forms
18:47:39 <John_Boyer> What if the group contains a trigger or a select1?
18:48:15 <John_Boyer> Each trigger would have to stop propagating its DOMActivate
18:48:39 <John_Boyer> The select1 does not know whether to cancel it or not
18:49:14 <nick> John: Every dialog box has a default trigger
18:49:25 <nick> John: It is a common pattern
18:51:59 <nick> John: There are maybe forms out that use the DOMActive on a value change in slect1
18:52:37 <nick> MarkB: We should describe more carefully how controls behave
18:54:43 <John_Boyer> <group>
18:55:05 <John_Boyer> <dispatch ev:event="DOMActivate" event="DOMActivate" target="someTrigger"/>
18:55:08 <nick> MarB: The common pattern is a group that contains an event handler that dispatches an event to the action handler of your deafualt tigger
18:55:53 <John_Boyer> <group>
18:56:14 <John_Boyer> <dispatch ev:event="xforms-default" event="DOMActivate" target="someTrigger"/>
18:58:02 <nick> MarkB: You have to solve the two half problems
18:58:26 <nick> MarkB: We should describe more carefully how controls behave
18:59:12 <nick> John: Should we digg in the conntrols, or should we dispatch another event
19:01:59 <nick> John: The fact that DOMActivate bubles, prevented us to put a dialog in an action, otherwise the triggers in the dialog will trigger the outer trigger
19:03:28 <nick> MarkB: You could define that triggers stops propogation of the DOMActivate event, but this breaks generic XML Events 2.0
19:04:10 <CharlieW> nice
19:05:03 <nick> MarkB: submit is symantic sugar
19:06:27 <nick> John: Stop propagation stops the bubbling, cancel prevents the default handling
19:07:38 <nick> Steven : Default action happens after bubbling
19:07:56 <Steven> according to the DOM
19:09:02 <CharlieW> CharlieW has joined #forms
19:11:39 <nick> John: The real problem is the select1, we can not distinguish between selecting an item and pressing enter on the select1
19:14:32 <nick> John:Can you write an handler with with no action in it
19:14:44 <nick> Steven: We have action
19:14:58 <nick> John: Action has to have at least one child
19:15:33 <nick> MarkB: You can have a handler attribute on an action
19:16:37 <nick> John: Can we change the + in a *
19:16:51 <nick> John: is it XForms 1.1?
19:17:01 <nick> Steven: I hope
19:17:10 <John_Boyer> http://www.w3.org/TR/xforms11/#action
19:17:38 <nick> who gets the action item?
19:17:50 <CharlieW> +1 (agree)
19:18:22 <nick> RESOLUTION: Allow sthe action element to have 0 children
19:18:52 <nick> s/sthe/the/
19:19:16 <nick> s/to have 0 children/to have 0 children in XForms 1.1
19:20:29 <wellsk> yep
19:20:34 <markbirbeck_> markbirbeck_ has joined #forms
19:20:40 <John_Boyer> <submit submission="X">
19:20:46 <John_Boyer> <label>Press me</label>
19:21:07 <John_Boyer> <action ev:event="DOMActivate" ev:stopPropagation="true"/>
19:21:10 <John_Boyer> </submit>
19:21:50 <John_Boyer> Test that the event doesn't bubble up to parent of submit, but the submission still happens because the submission is default processing
19:22:26 <CharlieW> * coffee too
19:22:55 <John_Boyer> take 5
19:25:19 <Steven> zakim, mute me
19:25:19 <Zakim> Steven should now be muted
19:30:48 <Steven> ack me
19:32:02 <John_Boyer> resume
19:33:06 <John_Boyer> <action ev:event="something" ev:stopPropagation="true" if="some condition"/>
19:33:47 <nick> MarkB: I don't think doesn't stop propagation in XML events 1
19:37:17 <Steven> zakim, mute me
19:37:17 <Zakim> Steven should now be muted
19:37:31 <John_Boyer> http://www.w3.org/TR/xforms11/#sequence-for-select
19:38:58 <nick> John: There is no text that you get a DOMActivate when you press enter in select and select1
19:40:10 <nick> John: You only get the DOMActivate if you change the control
19:41:54 <nick> John: Concludes that you also get a DOMActivate when the value isn't changed.
19:42:11 <nick> John: And don't get a DOMActivate when the value is changed
19:42:23 <markbirbeck_> dinner Sunday sounds good to me, too.
19:42:35 <John_Boyer> Section 4.6.3 bullet 1 says when you make a selection in a select/select1, you get value-changed, but you don't get DOMActivate
19:43:01 <John_Boyer> bullet 3 says if you "activate" the control (which a common UI experience says happens if you hit enter)
19:43:34 <John_Boyer> then the third bullet says you get the value changed before the DOMActivate
19:43:51 <John_Boyer> The spec assumes it's "obvious" that if you activate the control
19:43:55 <John_Boyer> you will get a DOMActivate
19:44:02 <John_Boyer> so it is only explaining the order of events
19:44:08 <John_Boyer> when the control has changed the value.
19:44:25 <John_Boyer> The user agent defines what "activate the control" means
19:45:14 <nick> Leigh: Select1 default incremental is true
19:46:00 <nick> Leigh: Does it activate the control, I'm not sure. I think it is dependant on the modality
19:46:26 <Steven> ack me
19:46:41 <markbirbeck_> DOMActivate
19:46:41 <markbirbeck_>     The activate event occurs when an element is activated, for instance, thru a mouse click or a keypress. A numerical argument is provided to give an indication of the type of activation that occurs: 1 for a simple activation (e.g. a simple click or Enter), 2 for hyperactivation (for instance a double click or Shift Enter).
19:49:23 <nick> MarkB: It is vague because it says that the event occurs when a control is activated, it doesn't say how it always activated
19:49:35 <nick> MarkB: Sso we can be verry specific
19:51:13 <nick> JohnB: When you click on a dropdown I would expect a DOMActivate but when you click in a textbox I wouldn't expect a DOMActivate
19:51:49 <John_Boyer> Steven, would you type that or say again?
19:52:04 <Steven> The number (1 or 2) is not normally exposed in the XForms event handling
19:53:08 <nick> MarkB: It is availbe with the event function
19:53:10 <ebruchez> yup
19:53:33 <John_Boyer> http://www.w3.org/TR/xforms11/#evt-activate
19:54:31 <nick> JohnB: We should add context info to the DOMActivate event
19:55:51 <nick> MarkB: The hyper activation is the solution
19:56:17 <Steven> zakim, who is on the phone?
19:56:17 <Zakim> On the phone I see wellsk (muted), nick, ebruchez, John_Boyer, markbirbeck, Steven, Leigh_Klotz, CharlieW
19:57:49 <CharlieW> in previous work, we've distinguished between 3 states: interest, selection, execution
19:58:29 <CharlieW> this applies across all UI controls
19:59:49 <nick> MarkB: We need to add an if to Johns example of an handler on the group and use the context info
20:00:20 <Steven> Keith, Doug Schepers will attend all three days
20:00:23 <nick> MarkB: And stop propagation of the DOMActivate event on triggers
20:00:24 <wellsk> ok
20:03:16 <klotz> http://xformstest.org/2008-02-01.txt
20:04:03 <ebruchez> bye
20:04:03 <Zakim> -Leigh_Klotz
20:04:06 <Zakim> -Steven
20:04:08 <Zakim> -CharlieW
20:04:09 <Zakim> -markbirbeck
20:04:10 <Zakim> -nick
20:04:11 <Zakim> -John_Boyer
20:04:12 <Zakim> -wellsk
20:04:13 <CharlieW> CharlieW has left #forms
20:04:14 <Zakim> -ebruchez
20:04:15 <Zakim> Team_(forms)17:30Z has ended
20:04:16 <Zakim> Attendees were wellsk, nick, [IPcaller], ebruchez, CharlieW, +1.978.399.aaaa, John_Boyer, markbirbeck, Steven, Leigh_Klotz
20:04:23 <John_Boyer> rrsagent, make minutes
20:04:23 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/01-forms-minutes.html John_Boyer
20:04:23 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
20:04:23 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/01-forms-minutes.html Steven
20:04:28 <wellsk> wellsk has left #forms
20:04:28 <John_Boyer> rrsagent, bye
20:04:28 <RRSAgent> I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/01-forms-actions.rdf :
20:04:28 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Jboyer write text for switch using [1]
20:04:28 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/01-forms-irc#T16-27-59
20:04:29 <Steven> lol