IRC log of forms on 2008-02-01

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:15:16 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #forms

13:15:16 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/02/01-forms-irc

13:15:22 [Steven]

rrsagent, make log public

13:15:30 [nick]

but to be save maybe we can allocate 12 ports...

13:15:36 [Steven]

Meeting: Forms WG Virtual Day

13:15:41 [Steven]

Chair: John Boyer

13:19:04 [Steven]

zakim, room for 15 at 09:00 for 150 mins?

13:19:05 [Zakim]

ok, Steven; conference Team_(forms)14:00Z scheduled with code 26631 (CONF1) at 09:00 for 150 minutes until 1630Z

13:19:22 [Steven]

zakim, code?

13:19:22 [Zakim]

the conference code is 26631 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), Steven

13:19:58 [Steven]

Steven has changed the topic to: Code is 26631 (CONF1)

13:20:26 [Steven]

Steven has changed the topic to: Zakim dial in code is 26631 (CONF1)

13:35:03 [wellsk]

wellsk has joined #forms

13:37:38 [nic1]

nic1 has joined #forms

13:38:07 [Steven]

hi all

13:38:17 [wellsk]

Hi Steven!

13:46:59 [CharlieW]

CharlieW has joined #forms

13:47:11 [CharlieW]

Hi everybody!

13:47:15 [Steven]

howdy

13:47:21 [wellsk]

Hi Charlie

13:47:42 [CharlieW]

hey steve, keith...will call in shortly...are we ok to use zakim?

13:47:55 [CharlieW]

sorry, steven

13:47:55 [Steven]

Yep:

13:47:58 [CharlieW]

k

13:48:01 [Steven]

zakim, code?

13:48:01 [Zakim]

the conference code is 26631 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), Steven

13:48:11 [CharlieW]

great

13:48:20 [Steven]

It's reserved for 150 mins (first half)

13:49:06 [Steven]

I thought I'd wait for reserving the second half until we know how many are really coming

13:49:16 [CharlieW]

sounds right

13:50:18 [nick]

nick has joined #forms

13:50:22 [CharlieW]

i'm in dallas

13:50:34 [CharlieW]

hotel rm

13:52:59 [Zakim]

Team_(forms)14:00Z has now started

13:53:06 [Zakim]

+??P2

13:53:34 [CharlieW]

zakim, P2 is CharlieW

13:53:34 [Zakim]

sorry, CharlieW, I do not recognize a party named 'P2'

13:53:44 [CharlieW]

zakim, ??P2 is CharlieW

13:53:44 [Zakim]

+CharlieW; got it

13:53:48 [Steven]

I brought a speaker phone with me, only to discover it is 230V only.

13:53:54 [CharlieW]

ahg

13:53:58 [Steven]

So I'll be hanging on a regular phone all day too

13:54:12 [CharlieW]

i just called in using the hotel speakerphone, but it's breaking up so will probably use my headset

13:57:02 [Steven]

WHich web interface are we using, Yugaw or whatever it's called, or another?

13:57:15 [CharlieW]

not sure...let's decide when folks get on

13:57:20 [Steven]

ok

13:57:22 [CharlieW]

mark and i have both sent out links

13:57:25 [klotz]

klotz has joined #forms

13:57:26 [CharlieW]

not sure which is better

13:57:43 [CharlieW]

the one i have can only originate sharing from windows, but anybody can see

13:57:54 [nick]

Charlie you should say SameTime don't you ;)

13:57:56 [John_Boyer]

John_Boyer has joined #forms

13:58:17 [John_Boyer]

zakim, code?

13:58:17 [Zakim]

the conference code is 26631 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), John_Boyer

13:58:24 [Zakim]

+wellsk

13:58:37 [Steven]

zakim, dial steven-617

13:58:37 [Zakim]

ok, Steven; the call is being made

13:58:38 [Zakim]

+Steven

13:59:00 [Zakim]

+??P11

14:00:03 [Zakim]

+ +1.978.399.aaaa

14:00:16 [John_Boyer]

zakim, I am +1.978

14:00:16 [Zakim]

+John_Boyer; got it

14:00:17 [wellsk]

zakim, who is here?

14:00:17 [Zakim]

On the phone I see CharlieW, wellsk, Steven, ??P11, John_Boyer

14:00:18 [Zakim]

On IRC I see John_Boyer, klotz, nick, CharlieW, wellsk, RRSAgent, Zakim, Steven, trackbot-ng

14:01:43 [klotz]

I have to leave 11:25 as I have to 400 elementary school students (science fair) but will be back for 10.

14:03:15 [Steven]

I don't understand your last message Leigh

14:03:19 [Steven]

Time warp?

14:03:28 [markbirbeck]

markbirbeck has joined #forms

14:03:55 [nick]

zakim who is here?

14:04:13 [nick]

zakim, who is here?

14:04:13 [Zakim]

On the phone I see CharlieW, wellsk, Steven, ??P11, John_Boyer

14:04:14 [Zakim]

On IRC I see markbirbeck, John_Boyer, klotz, nick, CharlieW, wellsk, RRSAgent, Zakim, Steven, trackbot-ng

14:04:36 [nick]

zakim, I am P11

14:04:36 [Zakim]

sorry, nick, I do not see a party named 'P11'

14:04:43 [markbirbeck]

zakim, code?

14:04:43 [Zakim]

the conference code is 26631 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), markbirbeck

14:04:50 [nick]

zakim, I am ??P11

14:04:50 [Zakim]

+nick; got it

14:05:11 [markbirbeck]

markbirbeck has left #forms

14:05:28 [markbirbeck]

markbirbeck has joined #forms

14:05:31 [nick]

fine for me

14:05:34 [markbirbeck]

zakim, code?

14:05:34 [Zakim]

the conference code is 26631 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), markbirbeck

14:06:22 [Zakim]

+Leigh_Klotz

14:08:47 [klotz]

zakim, who is here

14:08:47 [Zakim]

klotz, you need to end that query with '?'

14:08:50 [klotz]

zakim, who is here?

14:08:50 [Zakim]

On the phone I see CharlieW, wellsk, Steven, nick, John_Boyer, Leigh_Klotz

14:08:52 [Zakim]

On IRC I see markbirbeck, John_Boyer, klotz, nick, CharlieW, wellsk, RRSAgent, Zakim, Steven, trackbot-ng

14:10:43 [Steven]

mark?

14:10:52 [Steven]

Which webconference are we going to use?

14:10:52 [markbirbeck]

coming...

14:11:03 [Steven]

Yabadaba or the other one?

14:11:10 [markbirbeck]

up to you...Yugman is running now, if you want to use it.

14:11:17 [CharlieW]

is yugma able to share from any client?

14:11:17 [Steven]

ok

14:11:19 [Steven]

coming

14:11:22 [markbirbeck]

yes

14:11:33 [CharlieW]

k, let's go with that then

14:12:29 [Steven]

The system is pretty straightforward...just go to yugma.com and click

14:12:29 [Steven]

on 'Join a session'. You'll then be prompted to create an account. My

14:12:29 [Steven]

premium account does allow us to skip that step, but to do that I'd

14:12:29 [Steven]

need to invite everyone individually, so it seems a lot easier for

14:12:31 [Steven]

everyone to just create a free account.

14:12:33 [Steven]

14:12:35 [Steven]

As part of the sign-up you put in the session ID which is 203-299-949.

14:13:37 [nick]

wxhat is de sessiosn id?

14:13:44 [wellsk]

203-299-949

14:14:04 [CharlieW]

crashes my firefox

14:14:22 [nick]

it works for me

14:14:32 [CharlieW]

leopard or tiger?

14:14:46 [markbirbeck]

tiger here

14:14:53 [CharlieW]

leopard here

14:14:55 [markbirbeck]

Do people still use Firefox?

14:14:58 [markbirbeck]

;)

14:15:04 [CharlieW]

it's the jvm

14:15:08 [CharlieW]

same either way

14:15:23 [CharlieW]

i'll have to use windows under parallels, hang on

14:15:26 [nick]

it is quite lagging ....

14:15:41 [Steven]

I'm on

14:16:03 [Zakim]

+??P13

14:16:07 [markbirbeck]

zakim, i am ?

14:16:07 [Zakim]

+markbirbeck; got it

14:23:50 [John_Boyer]

zakim, who is here?

14:23:50 [Zakim]

On the phone I see CharlieW, wellsk, Steven, nick, John_Boyer, Leigh_Klotz, markbirbeck

14:23:53 [Zakim]

On IRC I see markbirbeck, John_Boyer, klotz, nick, CharlieW, wellsk, RRSAgent, Zakim, Steven, trackbot-ng

14:25:47 [klotz]

i will start

14:25:58 [Steven-eee]

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14:26:03 [John_Boyer]

Scribe: Leigh

14:26:06 [CharlieW]

moi aussi

14:26:10 [klotz]

agenda?

14:26:16 [John_Boyer]

scribenick: klotz

14:26:24 [John_Boyer]

Agenda: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/Agenda_Feb._1%2C_2008_%28virtual_day%29

14:26:39 [John_Boyer]

Chair: John

14:26:51 [Steven]

Steven has changed the topic to: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/Agenda_Feb._1%2C_2008_(virtual_day)

14:26:52 [John_Boyer]

Meeting: Forms WG Face to Face Virtual Day

14:28:17 [John_Boyer]

Regrets: Uli

14:32:22 [nic1]

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14:32:52 [John_Boyer]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2008Jan/0072.html

14:33:17 [John_Boyer]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2008Jan/0071.html

14:41:12 [John_Boyer]

<select1 ref="payment/methods/@method">

14:41:27 [John_Boyer]

<label>Choose method:</label>

14:41:31 [John_Boyer]

<item>

14:41:36 [John_Boyer]

<label>

14:41:40 [John_Boyer]

<value>

14:41:44 [John_Boyer]

<group>

14:41:48 [John_Boyer]

...

14:41:51 [John_Boyer]

</group>

14:41:53 [John_Boyer]

</item>

14:42:16 [John_Boyer]

This is what I think Mark is proposing

14:42:57 [John_Boyer]

Rather than putting switch/case inside select/select1

14:51:37 [John_Boyer]

<payment>

14:52:12 [John_Boyer]

<methods method="VISA">

14:52:21 [John_Boyer]

<Visa>

14:52:23 [John_Boyer]

<number>

14:52:25 [John_Boyer]

</Visa>

14:53:36 [John_Boyer]

<mastercarddata>

14:53:40 [John_Boyer]

<number>

14:53:44 [John_Boyer]

<expiry>

14:54:59 [John_Boyer]

</masterdata>

14:55:01 [John_Boyer]

...

14:59:45 [nic1]

you can only show the content of the case that is selected, bcz not selected cases are non relevant

15:00:09 [nic1]

this will not allow to implement the firefox example

15:00:20 [nic1]

that markB gave us a minute ago

15:15:07 [Steven-eee]

http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/2008/screen20080201.PNG

15:16:05 [nic1]

I like this much more then adding the extra switch

15:19:01 [nic1]

I had the same problem as charlie

15:24:45 [Steven]

Do we really need itemset?

15:25:08 [Steven]

Can't we just say that <item nodeset="..."> does the job of itemset

15:25:29 [John_Boyer]

Could do, but then the case is still inside the item, so you still get case repetition

15:25:31 [CharlieW]

i still don't like calling the element <case>

15:25:46 [Steven]

+1 to charlie

15:26:04 [Zakim]

-markbirbeck

15:26:07 [Steven]

take 5 for coffee

15:26:07 [John_Boyer]

take 5

15:26:26 [klotz]

+1 to sausage sandwich

15:36:14 [wellsk]

keith is here

15:36:38 [wellsk]

apps

15:52:50 [nic1]

I like the case in select and switch because the the case does the relevance behavior and the element around it (select, select1, switch)

15:53:10 [nic1]

does the switching

15:53:53 [John_Boyer]

<switch ref="some/tree">

15:54:03 [John_Boyer]

<select1> .. </select1>

15:54:09 [John_Boyer]

<case>

15:54:10 [John_Boyer]

<case>

15:54:12 [John_Boyer]

<case>

15:55:26 [John_Boyer]

<switch ref="some/tree">

15:55:36 [John_Boyer]

<select1 ref="@choice">

15:55:45 [John_Boyer]

<item> label value...

15:55:48 [John_Boyer]

</select1>

15:56:02 [John_Boyer]

<case> label value

15:56:07 [John_Boyer]

<case> label value

15:56:43 [John_Boyer]

</switch>

15:57:02 [nic1]

I find it a bit strange

15:58:48 [nic1]

I don't understand why the select needs be inside the case

15:59:14 [nic1]

and how you con be sure that the same values are in the cases

16:00:55 [nic1]

ack me

16:02:14 [Zakim]

-nick

16:02:31 [nick]

nick has joined #forms

16:02:36 [nick]

sorry network dropped out

16:02:52 [nick]

zakim, code?

16:02:52 [Zakim]

the conference code is 26631 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), nick

16:03:10 [Zakim]

+??P8

16:03:22 [nick]

zakim, I am ??P8

16:03:22 [Zakim]

+nick; got it

16:03:38 [Steven]

zakim, mute me

16:03:38 [Zakim]

Steven should now be muted

16:04:15 [nick]

nick has joined #forms

16:04:59 [John_Boyer]

<switch ref="payment/methods">

16:05:13 [John_Boyer]

<input ref="@method"> ...

16:05:18 [John_Boyer]

<case>

16:05:20 [John_Boyer]

<case>

16:05:21 [John_Boyer]

<case>

16:13:52 [John_Boyer]

<switch ref="payment/method">

16:14:04 [John_Boyer]

<xyzzy ref="@method">

16:14:07 [John_Boyer]

<case>

16:14:08 [John_Boyer]

<case>

16:14:35 [John_Boyer]

Leigh says do the same thing as upload

16:14:45 [klotz]

<switch ref="payment/method">

16:14:49 [klotz]

<xyzzy ref="@method">

16:14:57 [klotz]

<select1>...</select1>

16:15:00 [klotz]

</xyzzy>

16:15:03 [klotz]

<case>...</case>

16:16:03 [wellsk]

ha

16:17:52 [Steven]

ack me

16:21:50 [Zakim]

-Leigh_Klotz

16:22:12 [klotz]

http://xformstest.org/2008-02-01.txt

16:22:25 [nick]

minutes?

16:22:31 [John_Boyer]

yes

16:22:50 [John_Boyer]

Scribe: Steven

16:22:50 [Steven]

Scribe: Steven

16:23:29 [Steven]

John: Ten mins to go, can we design a name in that time?

16:23:59 [Steven]

... the reason I suggested 'state' was that I use that name on an attribute now

16:24:57 [Steven]

Steven: How about 'using'

16:25:39 [wellsk]

express?

16:26:09 [Steven]

John: 'selection'?

16:26:50 [Steven]

John: Let's go with 'using' until we find something better

16:27:14 [CharlieW]

+0.5

16:27:24 [Steven]

lol

16:27:41 [Steven]

John: I propose we have enough to consider it for XForms 1.2

16:27:59 [Steven]

ACTION: Jboyer write text for switch using

16:27:59 [trackbot-ng]

Created ACTION-449 - Write text for switch using [on John Boyer - due 2008-02-08].

16:28:22 [Steven]

John: Time for the break

16:29:01 [nick]

buy

16:29:08 [nick]

bey

16:29:12 [Zakim]

-nick

16:29:13 [Steven]

bi

16:29:19 [John_Boyer]

rrsagent, make minutes

16:29:19 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/01-forms-minutes.html John_Boyer

16:29:19 [Zakim]

-Steven

16:29:20 [Zakim]

-wellsk

16:29:20 [Zakim]

-CharlieW

16:29:24 [Zakim]

-John_Boyer

16:29:27 [Zakim]

Team_(forms)14:00Z has ended

16:29:30 [Zakim]

Attendees were CharlieW, wellsk, Steven, +1.978.399.aaaa, John_Boyer, nick, Leigh_Klotz, markbirbeck

16:29:40 [John_Boyer]

will be back in an hour...

16:29:46 [John_Boyer]

John_Boyer has left #forms

16:30:17 [Steven]

zakim, how manyports are reserved now?

16:30:17 [Zakim]

I don't understand your question, Steven.

16:30:27 [Steven]

zakim, how many ports are reserved now?

16:30:27 [Zakim]

on Fri Feb 1 11:30:00 2008 I see 41 reserved [51 available], 32 ports 30 minutes later [60 available], and 0 ports 60 minutes later [92 available]

16:31:16 [Steven]

zakim, room for 10 at 12:30 for 150 mins?

16:31:17 [Zakim]

ok, Steven; conference Team_(forms)17:30Z scheduled with code 26631 (CONF1) at 12:30 for 150 minutes until 2000Z

16:31:24 [Steven]

same code

16:42:36 [nick]

nick has joined #forms

16:54:24 [nick]

nick has joined #forms

17:15:47 [ebruchez]

ebruchez has joined #forms

17:17:38 [ebruchez]

hi there

17:20:47 [wellsk]

hi eric -- we will be starting up again about 12:30 EST

17:21:18 [ebruchez]

thanks, are we calling zakim?

17:21:52 [nick]

yes

17:21:58 [ebruchez]

ok

17:21:58 [nick]

zakim, code?

17:21:58 [Zakim]

the conference code is 26631 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), nick

17:22:10 [ebruchez]

thx

17:22:14 [wellsk]

yeah -- You didn't need me!

17:22:14 [nick]

(not our regular conference code)

17:22:26 [ebruchez]

yeah I tried that and was thrown out ;-)

17:27:16 [Zakim]

Team_(forms)17:30Z has now started

17:27:22 [Zakim]

+wellsk

17:27:44 [wellsk]

zakiim, mute me

17:27:50 [wellsk]

zakim, mute me

17:27:50 [Zakim]

sorry, wellsk, muting is not permitted when only one person is present

17:28:03 [Zakim]

+??P2

17:28:18 [ebruchez]

are we also joining on Yugma?

17:28:29 [nick]

zakim, I am ??P2

17:28:29 [Zakim]

+nick; got it

17:29:02 [wellsk]

re: yugma, I don't know

17:29:09 [Zakim]

+[IPcaller]

17:29:16 [ebruchez]

zakim, [IP is ebruchez

17:29:16 [Zakim]

+ebruchez; got it

17:29:34 [Zakim]

+??P4

17:29:45 [CharlieW]

zakim, ??P4 is CharlieW

17:29:45 [Zakim]

+CharlieW; got it

17:32:12 [wellsk]

eric, we were using yugma.com this morning -- you can register for a free acct, and then "join session"

17:32:31 [wellsk]

the session code is 203-299-949

17:32:32 [Zakim]

-ebruchez

17:33:12 [Zakim]

+??P3

17:33:20 [ebruchez]

zakim, ??P3 is ebruchez

17:33:20 [Zakim]

+ebruchez; got it

17:34:02 [John_Boyer]

John_Boyer has joined #forms

17:34:06 [John_Boyer]

zakim, code?

17:34:06 [Zakim]

the conference code is 26631 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), John_Boyer

17:34:19 [Zakim]

+ +1.978.399.aaaa

17:34:33 [John_Boyer]

zakim, I am +1.978

17:34:33 [Zakim]

+John_Boyer; got it

17:35:52 [nick]

now I'm muted

17:36:04 [Zakim]

+??P6

17:36:07 [wellsk]

zakim, mute me

17:36:07 [Zakim]

wellsk should now be muted

17:36:07 [markbirbeck]

zakim, i am ?

17:36:08 [Zakim]

+markbirbeck; got it

17:36:28 [nick]

it really echo's

17:38:29 [Steven]

zakim, dial steven-617

17:38:29 [Zakim]

ok, Steven; the call is being made

17:38:31 [Zakim]

+Steven

17:39:34 [markbirbeck]

http://eric.van-der-vlist.com/blog/2008/01/31/html-5-turns-documents-into-applications/

17:41:46 [markbirbeck]

zakim, mute me

17:41:46 [Zakim]

markbirbeck should now be muted

17:42:10 [John_Boyer]

Scribe: Steven

17:42:40 [markbirbeck]

zakim, unmute me

17:42:40 [Zakim]

markbirbeck should no longer be muted

17:43:12 [Steven]

Topic: Default trigger

17:44:13 [Steven]

John: The idea is to simplify common cases

17:44:39 [Steven]

... but it's not clear if every implementation generates a DOMActivate for [enter] in an <input>

17:46:01 [Steven]

Steven: We could define tha an [enter] in an input generates a DOMActivate

17:46:21 [Zakim]

+Leigh_Klotz

17:46:42 [Steven]

John: But you might have to duplication the action for several controls

17:47:00 [Steven]

Steven: Well, the advantage of bubbling is that you can wrap the controls and put the action there

17:48:06 [Steven]

Erik: Is the issue just about submission?

17:48:07 [John_Boyer]

<group>

17:48:30 [John_Boyer]

<action ev:event="DOMActivate" whatever to say any time in bubble phase>

17:48:49 [John_Boyer]

<send> default action

17:49:09 [John_Boyer]

But what if the group contains multiple triggers?

17:49:56 [Steven]

Steven: You mean that in some cases you would have to stop the bubbling

17:50:07 [Steven]

s/bubbling/bubbling?/

17:50:30 [Steven]

John: Yes. You can get it to work now, but it is easier to author in HTML

17:50:43 [Steven]

... and it should be as easy as that

17:52:05 [Steven]

STeven: Are you trying to capture some patterns in XForms now or just trying to capture the HTML [renter] in input case?

17:52:10 [Steven]

John: The latter

17:52:46 [Steven]

John: How did it get to be like that?

17:52:59 [Steven]

Steven: I think that Netscape did that, and everyone copied them

17:53:32 [Steven]

John: How does the Google main page work, where there's two buttons?

17:53:39 [Steven]

Steven: There's a lot of script in there

17:54:30 [Steven]

Erik: You can do this with script

17:57:50 [nick]

4.4.12 The DOMActivate EventDispatched in response to: the "default action request" for a core form control, for instance pressing a button or hitting enter.

17:59:12 [Steven]

Steven: <input> doesn't take [enter], so the Activate may not even go to the control

17:59:53 [Steven]

Leigh: I just tried it on the google page, and it seems to activate the first trigger in lexical order

18:02:08 [Steven]

zakim, mute me

18:02:08 [Zakim]

Steven should now be muted

18:02:12 [John_Boyer]

Scribe: Nick

18:02:18 [John_Boyer]

scribenick: nick

18:03:55 [ebruchez]

WG members get younger and younger

18:04:45 [nick]

markB: Maybe the auther needs to add a form element and add an action handler

18:05:03 [nick]

JohnB: Or maybe an id of the button that needs to be triggered

18:06:19 [nick]

JohnB: How do we now if the user wants to trigger the default one, with some controls it is obvious

18:06:28 [nick]

.. for others it isn't

18:07:26 [nick]

MarkB: Maybe each control has to say if it wants to buble the event up

18:07:43 [nick]

John: But what if you hit a button

18:08:10 [nick]

MarkB: But should it buble if you hit a button, to activate the default handler

18:08:48 [nick]

John: You can use the tagname of the target

18:09:05 [Steven]

zakim, unmute me

18:09:05 [Zakim]

Steven should no longer be muted

18:09:43 [nick]

Charlie: we can maybe add extra payload

18:10:27 [nick]

Charlie: a field that indicates if default action is taken

18:11:25 [nick]

John: Maybe we need a different event

18:11:35 [nick]

John: xforms-default-action

18:11:48 [Steven]

zakim, mute me

18:11:48 [Zakim]

Steven should now be muted

18:12:14 [nick]

John: You can then write a handler at any level in the UI

18:12:26 [nick]

John: the handler can stop his propagation

18:12:59 [Steven]

s/his/its/

18:13:45 [nick]

John: The attribute that points to the trigger can also be on a switch, group

18:15:30 [nick]

John: I'm focussing on a form or subform that can indicate a default submsission

18:16:07 [Steven]

I think we need to be able to specify what a return in an input does

18:16:14 [Steven]

it's not only about submission

18:16:15 [nick]

John: But it is more general, bcz. you can write a handler on every level

18:16:17 [Steven]

ack me

18:17:25 [nick]

Steven: I think we have this already, the only problem is that input doesn't generate a DOMActivate

18:17:32 [markbirbeck_]

markbirbeck_ has joined #forms

18:17:58 [nick]

Leigh: Select1 generates also a DOMAcivate and you want to submit the form when you select something

18:18:25 [John_Boyer]

Suppose we have <group defaultcontrol="sometriggerID">

18:18:45 [John_Boyer]

Then various controls like input could dispatch xforms-default

18:18:50 [John_Boyer]

when you hit enter

18:18:51 [nick]

ack, me

18:19:56 [nick]

Steven: so input should not generate DOMActivate but another event

18:20:10 [markbirbeck]

markbirbeck has joined #forms

18:20:14 [nick]

Nick: And use our existing eventing framework

18:20:38 [ebruchez]

XForms 1.1 says "An example was added to show the use of a DOMActivate handler on an input to automatically initiate a submission once a user enters and commits input, such as a search query."

18:20:48 [ebruchez]

so we would undo that in 1.1?

18:22:27 [ebruchez]

http://www.w3.org/TR/xforms11/#rpm-event-sequences

18:22:30 [nick]

John: It is just simplification with attributes, a shortcut for the action handlers, there is also the problem that we don't allow actions as child as for example switch. Then you have to use an event handler with target

18:23:24 [nick]

Erik: There are good cases for DOMActivate

18:23:27 [ebruchez]

http://www.w3.org/TR/xforms11/#intro-diffs-ui

18:25:45 [nick]

MarkB: Input generating a DOMActivate is verry handy, and there are forms with no trigger so targetting a trigger isn't always possible

18:25:55 [John_Boyer]

http://www.w3.org/TR/xforms11/#ui-input

18:26:21 [markbirbeck_]

markbirbeck_ has joined #forms

18:27:41 [nick]

Leigh: It is to complicated to solve the problem in complex form, sometimes you just want to go to the next input

18:27:57 [markbirbeck_]

zakim, mute me

18:27:57 [Zakim]

sorry, markbirbeck_, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you

18:28:18 [Steven-eee]

Steven-eee has left #forms

18:28:34 [CharlieW]

* have to hang up for 5min to call room service, back shortly

18:28:38 [nick]

Erik: Some platforms don't have a default button on a dialog

18:28:40 [Zakim]

-CharlieW

18:29:11 [nick]

John: Mac OS does the same as windows in relation to the default trigger handling

18:29:43 [Steven-ee1]

Steven-ee1 has joined #forms

18:31:06 [Zakim]

+??P0

18:31:22 [CharlieW]

zakim, ??P0 is CharlieW

18:31:22 [Zakim]

+CharlieW; got it

18:32:00 [nick]

John: Do we want to defer this to a future release

18:32:06 [klotz]

in w3m, enter in text input allows you to edit the field; in lynx, it tabs to the next field.

18:32:08 [John_Boyer]

http://www.w3.org/TR/xforms11/#ui-input

18:32:16 [nick]

Steven: I tink we should try to solve it

18:32:18 [CharlieW]

+1 on it being important

18:32:38 [nick]

John: The simple case is already coverred in XForms 11

18:34:08 [nick]

John: What is verry deficult to solve : if you have a group of controls that has special default handling

18:34:17 [markbirbeck]

markbirbeck has joined #forms

18:34:47 [Steven]

Oops, no errata for XForms 1.1?

18:35:52 [markbirbeck_]

markbirbeck_ has joined #forms

18:35:58 [nick]

John: Do we get DOMActivate when we make a selection in a select1

18:36:48 [John_Boyer]

http://www.w3.org/TR/xforms11/#sequence-for-select

18:39:11 [CharlieW]

it's particularly important for things we don't have a convenient way to do...

18:39:26 [CharlieW]

boil down the inconvenient combinations of markup into a new simplified solution

18:39:53 [CharlieW]

but mark is suggesting we start from an example of how we'd do it today, concretely which i think is a great idea

18:41:48 [nick]

John: A select one minimal, tab into it, hit space, expand, select an item, hit enter, I don't want to do the default submission

18:42:14 [nick]

John: Go back to the select1 hit enter, now I want to submit

18:42:50 [nick]

MarkB: Maybe we need to tune when DOMActivate is sent in Select1 but this is a small change

18:43:12 [CharlieW]

it's a more evolve through experimentation and drive down into simplified markup

18:45:25 [John_Boyer]

<group>

18:45:28 [John_Boyer]

<label>

18:46:16 [John_Boyer]

<send ev:event="DOMActivate">

18:46:28 [John_Boyer]

<input>

18:46:30 [John_Boyer]

<input>

18:46:32 [John_Boyer]

<input>

18:46:38 [John_Boyer]

</group>

18:47:35 [markbirbeck]

markbirbeck has joined #forms

18:47:39 [John_Boyer]

What if the group contains a trigger or a select1?

18:48:15 [John_Boyer]

Each trigger would have to stop propagating its DOMActivate

18:48:39 [John_Boyer]

The select1 does not know whether to cancel it or not

18:49:14 [nick]

John: Every dialog box has a default trigger

18:49:25 [nick]

John: It is a common pattern

18:51:59 [nick]

John: There are maybe forms out that use the DOMActive on a value change in slect1

18:52:37 [nick]

MarkB: We should describe more carefully how controls behave

18:54:43 [John_Boyer]

<group>

18:55:05 [John_Boyer]

<dispatch ev:event="DOMActivate" event="DOMActivate" target="someTrigger"/>

18:55:08 [nick]

MarB: The common pattern is a group that contains an event handler that dispatches an event to the action handler of your deafualt tigger

18:55:53 [John_Boyer]

<group>

18:56:14 [John_Boyer]

<dispatch ev:event="xforms-default" event="DOMActivate" target="someTrigger"/>

18:58:02 [nick]

MarkB: You have to solve the two half problems

18:58:26 [nick]

MarkB: We should describe more carefully how controls behave

18:59:12 [nick]

John: Should we digg in the conntrols, or should we dispatch another event

19:01:59 [nick]

John: The fact that DOMActivate bubles, prevented us to put a dialog in an action, otherwise the triggers in the dialog will trigger the outer trigger

19:03:28 [nick]

MarkB: You could define that triggers stops propogation of the DOMActivate event, but this breaks generic XML Events 2.0

19:04:10 [CharlieW]

nice

19:05:03 [nick]

MarkB: submit is symantic sugar

19:06:27 [nick]

John: Stop propagation stops the bubbling, cancel prevents the default handling

19:07:38 [nick]

Steven : Default action happens after bubbling

19:07:56 [Steven]

according to the DOM

19:09:02 [CharlieW]

CharlieW has joined #forms

19:11:39 [nick]

John: The real problem is the select1, we can not distinguish between selecting an item and pressing enter on the select1

19:14:32 [nick]

John:Can you write an handler with with no action in it

19:14:44 [nick]

Steven: We have action

19:14:58 [nick]

John: Action has to have at least one child

19:15:33 [nick]

MarkB: You can have a handler attribute on an action

19:16:37 [nick]

John: Can we change the + in a *

19:16:51 [nick]

John: is it XForms 1.1?

19:17:01 [nick]

Steven: I hope

19:17:10 [John_Boyer]

http://www.w3.org/TR/xforms11/#action

19:17:38 [nick]

who gets the action item?

19:17:50 [CharlieW]

+1 (agree)

19:18:22 [nick]

RESOLUTION: Allow sthe action element to have 0 children

19:18:52 [nick]

s/sthe/the/

19:19:16 [nick]

s/to have 0 children/to have 0 children in XForms 1.1

19:20:29 [wellsk]

yep

19:20:34 [markbirbeck_]

markbirbeck_ has joined #forms

19:20:40 [John_Boyer]

<submit submission="X">

19:20:46 [John_Boyer]

<label>Press me</label>

19:21:07 [John_Boyer]

<action ev:event="DOMActivate" ev:stopPropagation="true"/>

19:21:10 [John_Boyer]

</submit>

19:21:50 [John_Boyer]

Test that the event doesn't bubble up to parent of submit, but the submission still happens because the submission is default processing

19:22:26 [CharlieW]

* coffee too

19:22:55 [John_Boyer]

take 5

19:25:19 [Steven]

zakim, mute me

19:25:19 [Zakim]

Steven should now be muted

19:30:48 [Steven]

ack me

19:32:02 [John_Boyer]

resume

19:33:06 [John_Boyer]

<action ev:event="something" ev:stopPropagation="true" if="some condition"/>

19:33:47 [nick]

MarkB: I don't think doesn't stop propagation in XML events 1

19:37:17 [Steven]

zakim, mute me

19:37:17 [Zakim]

Steven should now be muted

19:37:31 [John_Boyer]

http://www.w3.org/TR/xforms11/#sequence-for-select

19:38:58 [nick]

John: There is no text that you get a DOMActivate when you press enter in select and select1

19:40:10 [nick]

John: You only get the DOMActivate if you change the control

19:41:54 [nick]

John: Concludes that you also get a DOMActivate when the value isn't changed.

19:42:11 [nick]

John: And don't get a DOMActivate when the value is changed

19:42:23 [markbirbeck_]

dinner Sunday sounds good to me, too.

19:42:35 [John_Boyer]

Section 4.6.3 bullet 1 says when you make a selection in a select/select1, you get value-changed, but you don't get DOMActivate

19:43:01 [John_Boyer]

bullet 3 says if you "activate" the control (which a common UI experience says happens if you hit enter)

19:43:34 [John_Boyer]

then the third bullet says you get the value changed before the DOMActivate

19:43:51 [John_Boyer]

The spec assumes it's "obvious" that if you activate the control

19:43:55 [John_Boyer]

you will get a DOMActivate

19:44:02 [John_Boyer]

so it is only explaining the order of events

19:44:08 [John_Boyer]

when the control has changed the value.

19:44:25 [John_Boyer]

The user agent defines what "activate the control" means

19:45:14 [nick]

Leigh: Select1 default incremental is true

19:46:00 [nick]

Leigh: Does it activate the control, I'm not sure. I think it is dependant on the modality

19:46:41 [markbirbeck_]

DOMActivate

19:46:41 [markbirbeck_]

The activate event occurs when an element is activated, for instance, thru a mouse click or a keypress. A numerical argument is provided to give an indication of the type of activation that occurs: 1 for a simple activation (e.g. a simple click or Enter), 2 for hyperactivation (for instance a double click or Shift Enter).

19:49:23 [nick]

MarkB: It is vague because it says that the event occurs when a control is activated, it doesn't say how it always activated

19:49:35 [nick]

MarkB: Sso we can be verry specific

19:51:13 [nick]

JohnB: When you click on a dropdown I would expect a DOMActivate but when you click in a textbox I wouldn't expect a DOMActivate

19:51:49 [John_Boyer]

Steven, would you type that or say again?

19:52:04 [Steven]

The number (1 or 2) is not normally exposed in the XForms event handling

19:53:08 [nick]

MarkB: It is availbe with the event function

19:53:10 [ebruchez]

yup

19:53:33 [John_Boyer]

http://www.w3.org/TR/xforms11/#evt-activate

19:54:31 [nick]

JohnB: We should add context info to the DOMActivate event

19:55:51 [nick]

MarkB: The hyper activation is the solution

19:56:17 [Steven]

zakim, who is on the phone?

19:56:17 [Zakim]

On the phone I see wellsk (muted), nick, ebruchez, John_Boyer, markbirbeck, Steven, Leigh_Klotz, CharlieW

19:57:49 [CharlieW]

in previous work, we've distinguished between 3 states: interest, selection, execution

19:58:29 [CharlieW]

this applies across all UI controls

19:59:49 [nick]

MarkB: We need to add an if to Johns example of an handler on the group and use the context info

20:00:20 [Steven]

Keith, Doug Schepers will attend all three days

20:00:23 [nick]

MarkB: And stop propagation of the DOMActivate event on triggers

20:00:24 [wellsk]

ok

20:03:16 [klotz]

http://xformstest.org/2008-02-01.txt

20:04:03 [ebruchez]

bye

20:04:03 [Zakim]

-Leigh_Klotz

20:04:06 [Zakim]

-Steven

20:04:08 [Zakim]

-CharlieW

20:04:09 [Zakim]

-markbirbeck

20:04:10 [Zakim]

-nick

20:04:11 [Zakim]

-John_Boyer

20:04:12 [Zakim]

-wellsk

20:04:13 [CharlieW]

CharlieW has left #forms

20:04:14 [Zakim]

-ebruchez

20:04:15 [Zakim]

Team_(forms)17:30Z has ended

20:04:16 [Zakim]

Attendees were wellsk, nick, [IPcaller], ebruchez, CharlieW, +1.978.399.aaaa, John_Boyer, markbirbeck, Steven, Leigh_Klotz

20:04:23 [John_Boyer]

rrsagent, make minutes

20:04:23 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/01-forms-minutes.html John_Boyer

20:04:23 [Steven]

rrsagent, make minutes

20:04:23 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/01-forms-minutes.html Steven

20:04:28 [wellsk]

wellsk has left #forms

20:04:28 [John_Boyer]

rrsagent, bye

20:04:28 [RRSAgent]

I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/01-forms-actions.rdf :

20:04:28 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Jboyer write text for switch using [1]

20:04:28 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/01-forms-irc#T16-27-59

20:04:29 [Steven]

lol