15:54:17 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #xproc
15:54:17 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/01/17-xproc-irc
15:54:20 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #xproc
15:54:25 <Norm> Zakim, this will be xproc
15:54:25 <Zakim> ok, Norm; I see XML_PMWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 6 minutes
15:54:55 <PGrosso> PGrosso has joined #xproc
15:59:09 <avernet> avernet has joined #xproc
16:00:35 <Zakim> XML_PMWG()11:00AM has now started
16:00:42 <Zakim> +Norm
16:00:43 <Zakim> +[ArborText]
16:01:18 <Norm> Zakim, who's on the phone?
16:01:18 <Zakim> On the phone I see Norm, PGrosso
16:02:12 <Zakim> +??P15
16:02:14 <avernet> zakim, ? is avernet
16:02:14 <Zakim> +avernet; got it
16:03:36 <ht> zakim, please call ht-781
16:03:36 <Zakim> ok, ht; the call is being made
16:03:37 <Zakim> +Ht
16:03:50 <Zakim> +??P20
16:03:54 <richard> richard has joined #xproc
16:03:56 <ruilopes> Zakim: ? is me
16:04:21 <AndrewF> AndrewF has joined #xproc
16:04:23 <ruilopes> Zakim, ? is me
16:04:23 <Zakim> +ruilopes; got it
16:04:26 <Zakim> +??P4
16:04:28 <richard> zakim, ? is me
16:04:31 <Zakim> +richard; got it
16:04:57 <Zakim> +??P9
16:04:59 <AndrewF> zakim, ? is Andrew
16:04:59 <Zakim> +Andrew; got it
16:05:15 <Norm> Meeting: XML Processing Model WG
16:05:15 <Norm> Date: 17 January 2008
16:05:15 <Norm> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2008/01/17-agenda
16:05:15 <Norm> Meeting: 98
16:05:15 <Norm> Chair: Norm
16:05:16 <Norm> Scribe: Norm
16:05:18 <Norm> ScribeNick: Norm
16:05:20 <Norm> b
16:06:02 <Norm> Zakim, who's on the phone?
16:06:02 <Zakim> On the phone I see Norm, PGrosso, avernet, Ht, ruilopes, richard, Andrew
16:06:21 <Zakim> +Alex_Milows
16:06:36 <Norm> Present: Norm, Paul, Alessandro, Henry, Rui, Richard, Andrew, Alex
16:07:03 <Norm> Topic: Accept this agenda?
16:07:03 <Norm> -> http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2008/01/17-agenda
16:07:09 <Norm> Accepted.
16:07:27 <Norm> Henry wants to talk viewport and for-each (viz comment 83)
16:07:32 <Norm> Possibly also about comment 97.
16:07:41 <Norm> Topic: Accept minutes from the previous meeting?
16:07:41 <Norm> -> http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2008/01/10-minutes
16:07:48 <Norm> Accepted.
16:08:02 <Norm> Topic: Next meeting: telcon 24 January 2008?
16:08:09 <Norm> Paul gives regrets.
16:08:30 <Norm> Topic: Review of most recent editor's draft.
16:08:37 <Norm> Editor apologizes that it remains incomplete.
16:09:05 <Norm> Topic: Viewport and for-each
16:09:42 <Norm> Henry: Thinking about this a little bit reveals a problem because of the schizophrenic nature of the output decls on viewport/for-each
16:10:06 <Norm> ...Such declarations face both ways, they do two jobs: they tell the viewport semantics where to get the documents to plug into the gaps of the original input doc.
16:10:25 <Norm> ...You need this if you don't want the primary output of the last step in your subpipeline to give you the result.
16:10:33 <Norm> ...That's the content of the output declaration.
16:11:06 <Norm> ...The other thing it does is face outward to tell you things about the output of the viewport itself. In particular, to give it a name so that you can reference it from some other sibling step.
16:11:31 <Norm> Henry: These two functions are independent and semantically quite distinct, but they're folded together here.
16:11:50 <Norm> ...In viewport, in which direction does the sequence attribute point?
16:12:00 <MSM> zakim, please call MSM-Office
16:12:00 <Zakim> ok, MSM; the call is being made
16:12:01 <Zakim> +MSM
16:12:19 <MSM> zakim, mute me
16:12:19 <Zakim> MSM should now be muted
16:12:29 <Norm> Present: Norm, Paul, Alessandro, Henry, Rui, Richard, Andrew, Alex, Michael
16:12:46 <Norm> Henry: It only makes sense one way, of course.
16:13:07 <Norm> ...And the same question arises for 'primary', though it seems less significant there.
16:13:10 <Zakim> -avernet
16:13:40 <Norm> Henry: For consistency, just as we have a fixed, you can't fuss with it, special input port that faces into the subpipeline, we should have a special output port for the step itself.
16:13:50 <Zakim> +??P15
16:13:51 <avernet> zakim, ? is avernet
16:13:52 <Zakim> +avernet; got it
16:14:29 <Norm> ...I propose that the spec for viewport/for-each should be changed to make it clear that p:output is only used inside. The output port of the step itself is 'result' and you can't change it.
16:14:44 <Norm> Richard: That doesn't work for for-each because for-each can have multiple output ports.
16:15:00 <Norm> Richard: There are two different output ports in viewport, the output port of the contained subpipeine and the output port of the viewport itself.
16:15:20 <Norm> ...The question is, to which of these do the declarations on p:output apply.
16:15:52 <Norm> ...In the case of viewport, there's always exactly one output from the viewport and its always one document. We should just say that it's always primary.
16:16:02 <Norm> ...Everything in the declaration applies to the contained pipeline.
16:16:17 <Norm> ...This would mean that you can't choose the name of the output of the viewport.
16:16:32 <Norm> q+ to ask why you can't change its name
16:16:42 <Norm> Richard: Why doesn't this problem arise for choose?
16:17:13 <Norm> ...Because after the test, the selected subpipeline replaces the original step. It behave as if just that had the selected pipeline in a group.
16:17:29 <Norm> Richard: for-each is somewhere in between. It doesn't wrap its output, but it does get concatenated together into a sequence.
16:17:43 <alexmilowski> alexmilowski has joined #xproc
16:17:55 <Norm> ...Whereas with choose, if the output of the when is a sequence then the output of a choose is a sequence. In a for-each, the output is always a sequence.
16:18:11 <Norm> ...We want for-each to be able to have several outputs, so we need to be able to specify the names
16:18:26 <Norm> ...Can we say that the output port serves double-duty for both the contained pipeline and the for-each itself.
16:18:52 <Norm> ...AFAICS, we can.
16:19:45 <Norm> ...It couldn't serve double-duty if we wanted them to have different properties.
16:20:00 <Norm> ...But we don't, because the only thing that's different is that we always want the outputs to be sequences.
16:21:40 <Norm> Norm: Is the following summary correct, for viewport, the step output has the same name, is primary, and is not sequence. For for-each, we say it has the same name, it's primary if you said the inner one was, and it always produces a sequence.
16:21:58 <Norm> Richard: That's different in one respect, Henry suggested that for viewport it should have a fixed name.
16:22:30 <Norm> Henry: I hate this aspect of our design. But pretending that there's only one declaration when there are really two just seems very, very odd.
16:23:23 <Norm> Richard: There's a substantial difference between the viewport and for-each cases. In the viewport case, the result doesn't really have anything to do with what was produced by the steps inside.
16:23:26 <Norm> Norm: Yeah, ok.
16:23:53 <Norm> Norm: So for viewport we say the name of the output fixed and is 'result'.
16:24:32 <Norm> Does that resolve everything?
16:24:36 <Norm> Richard/Henry: I think so.
16:25:11 <Norm> Topic: Issue 97
16:25:48 <Norm> -> http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2007/09/lastcall/comments#C097
16:26:24 <Norm> Henry: Yes, there's definitely a point here.
16:27:32 <Norm> Norm: But we do forbid empty pipelines.
16:28:05 <Norm> Henry: But declare step isn't a compound step, so that doesn't really apply.
16:28:18 <Norm> ...So we should make that static error apply here too.
16:28:43 <Norm> Henry: In any event, we need to clarify the case.
16:29:25 <Norm> Norm mumbles a bit
16:29:50 <Norm> Henry: The problem is that the implication in the text runs the wrong way. What needs to be said is that the implication runs both ways.
16:30:52 <Norm> Topic: Editor's draft review
16:31:35 <Norm> Henry: In 2.1, it used to say that extension elements had somewhat constrained semantics.
16:32:10 <Norm> ...We need to put those constraints in for p:pipeinfo
16:32:12 <Norm> Norm: Yep.
16:33:05 <Norm> Topic: Any other business?
16:33:57 <Norm> Henry: There are a bunch of unclosed issues.
16:34:17 <Norm> Norm: I think they'll be closed when I've implemented the decisions we've made
16:34:45 <Zakim> -PGrosso
16:34:47 <Zakim> -richard
16:34:48 <Zakim> -avernet
16:34:50 <Zakim> -Andrew
16:34:51 <Norm> RRSAgent, set logs world-visible
16:34:54 <Zakim> -ruilopes
16:35:01 <Zakim> -MSM
16:35:03 <Zakim> -Ht
16:35:34 <PGrosso> PGrosso has left #xproc
16:35:49 <Norm> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:35:49 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/01/17-xproc-minutes.html Norm
16:42:00 <Zakim> -Alex_Milows
16:42:02 <Zakim> XML_PMWG()11:00AM has ended
16:42:03 <Zakim> Attendees were Norm, PGrosso, avernet, Ht, ruilopes, richard, Andrew, Alex_Milows, MSM
16:46:19 <MoZ> MoZ has joined #xproc
17:11:32 <MoZ> Zakim, this will be xproc
17:11:32 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, MoZ
17:11:45 <MoZ> Zakim, this is xproc
17:11:45 <Zakim> sorry, MoZ, I do not see a conference named 'xproc' in progress or scheduled at this time