17:54:06 RRSAgent has joined #owl 17:54:06 logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/01/09-owl-irc 17:54:09 IanH has joined #owl 17:54:14 Zakim, this is OWL_WG 17:54:14 sorry, jjc, I do not see a conference named 'OWL_WG' in progress or scheduled at this time 17:54:21 Zakim, this will be OWL_WG 17:54:21 I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, jjc 17:54:24 Zakim, this will be SW_OWL_WG 17:54:24 I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, jjc 17:54:29 Zakim, this will be SW_OWL 17:54:29 ok, jjc; I see SW_OWL()12:00PM scheduled to start 54 minutes ago 17:54:29 cgi-irc has joined #owl 17:54:33 Zakim, this is #owl 17:54:33 sorry, Rinke, I do not see a conference named '#owl' in progress or scheduled at this time 17:54:40 Zakim, this is owl 17:54:40 Rinke, I see SW_OWL()12:00PM in the schedule but not yet started. Perhaps you mean "this will be owl". 17:54:50 Zakim, this will be owl 17:54:50 ok, Rinke; I see SW_OWL()12:00PM scheduled to start 54 minutes ago 17:55:47 SW_OWL()12:00PM has now started 17:55:58 + +8652aaaa 17:56:33 +??P9 17:56:41 zakim, ??P9 is me 17:56:41 +bijan; got it 17:56:43 zakim, aaaa is me 17:56:43 +IanH; got it 17:56:44 zakim, mute me 17:56:44 bijan should now be muted 17:56:52 +Rinke 17:57:24 +??P12 17:57:25 +jar 17:57:30 MarkusK has joined #owl 17:57:38 sadly not :-( 17:57:39 Zakim, ??P12 is me 17:57:39 +jjc; got it 17:57:54 bmotik has joined #owl 17:58:03 uli has joined #owl 17:58:04 bcuencagrau has joined #owl 17:58:20 q- 17:58:24 +bmotik 17:58:27 Zakim, mute me 17:58:27 jjc was already muted, jjc 17:58:32 msmith has joined #owl 17:58:43 Zakim, mute me 17:58:43 bmotik should now be muted 17:58:48 alanr has joined #owl 17:59:12 +??P16 17:59:22 Elisa has joined #owl 17:59:45 vojtech has joined #owl 17:59:47 pfps has joined #owl 17:59:53 + +018652aabb 18:00:29 +Elisa_Kendall 18:00:31 k, will remove from agenda 18:00:39 ewallace has joined #owl 18:00:45 + +016161aacc 18:00:49 - +018652aabb 18:00:51 Carsten has joined #owl 18:01:02 Zhe has joined #owl 18:01:05 hendler has joined #owl 18:01:24 +??P18 18:01:29 +??P22 18:01:32 DougL has joined #owl 18:01:43 +??P25 18:01:44 RRSAgent, pointer? 18:01:44 See http://www.w3.org/2008/01/09-owl-irc#T18-01-44 18:01:49 +Evan_Wallace 18:01:53 +Zhe 18:01:56 +Carsten 18:01:59 Zakim, ??P22 is me 18:01:59 +bcuencagrau; got it 18:01:59 zakim, ??p25 is me 18:02:00 +pfps; got it 18:02:10 zakim, mute me 18:02:10 +Sandro 18:02:12 Carsten should now be muted 18:02:17 + +1.518.698.aadd 18:02:24 zakim, +016161aacc is me 18:02:24 +uli; got it 18:02:27 zakim, aadd is me 18:02:27 +hendler; got it 18:02:31 zakim, mute me 18:02:32 pfps should now be muted 18:02:33 +msmith 18:02:35 +DougL 18:02:36 zakim, mute me 18:02:36 bcuencagrau should now be muted 18:03:51 scribenick:hendler 18:04:03 ScribeNick: hendler 18:04:33 zakim, who is here? 18:04:33 On the phone I see IanH (muted), bijan (muted), Rinke, jjc (muted), jar, bmotik (muted), MarkusK (muted), Elisa_Kendall, uli (muted), ??P18, bcuencagrau (muted), pfps (muted), 18:04:36 ... Evan_Wallace, Zhe, Carsten (muted), Sandro, hendler, msmith, DougL 18:04:37 On IRC I see DougL, hendler, Zhe, Carsten, ewallace, pfps, vojtech, Elisa, alanr, msmith, bcuencagrau, uli, bmotik, MarkusK, IanH, RRSAgent, Zakim, jjc, sandro, Rinke, bijan, 18:04:40 ... trackbot-ng 18:04:56 Alanr: calls the role 18:05:00 zakim, unmute me 18:05:00 IanH should no longer be muted 18:05:23 JeffP has joined #owl 18:05:31 Zakim, ??P18 is Vojtech, 18:05:31 +Vojtech,; got it 18:05:55 RRSAgent, make record public 18:05:58 zakim, mute me 18:05:58 IanH should now be muted 18:05:59 Topic: role call and background 18:06:04 Rinke, just do what I just did, if you like. 18:06:33 vojtech: new to W3C, interested in ontology patters/matching 18:06:34 welcome, Vojtech. 18:06:43 ... worked some on the rich annotations 18:07:00 alanr: agenda ammendments? [none received] 18:07:11 +1 to 12/19 minutes 18:07:11 +JeffP 18:07:13 PROPOSED: accept minutes of 2007-12-19 18:07:21 +1 18:07:31 RESOLVED: accept minuts of 2007-12-19 18:07:48 PROPOSED: accept minutes of 2008-01-02 18:07:49 +1 to 1/2 minutes 18:07:58 RESOLVED: accept minutes of 2008-01-02 18:08:03 +1 to 1/2 minutes 18:08:16 PROPOSED: accept minutes of manchester face to face 18:08:20 +0 18:08:21 +0 to F2F (there are still missing pointers to presentations) 18:08:27 +1 18:08:41 zakim, unmute me 18:08:41 pfps should no longer be muted 18:09:00 Jim, why +0? 18:09:05 ahh, I didn't understand that 18:09:05 +1 - for the part I attended by phone 18:09:09 -1 18:09:13 zakim, mute me 18:09:13 pfps should now be muted 18:09:22 Do we have a list of the presetnations? 18:09:45 q+ 18:10:04 Zakim, unmute me 18:10:04 jjc should no longer be muted 18:10:32 zakim, mute me 18:10:32 pfps was already muted, pfps 18:10:32 general discussion of minutes and presentations 18:10:58 alanr: let's postpone to next week and we have time to make sure presentations are linked right 18:11:21 alanr: ok, please fix this up during the week - I could put presentation pointers in 18:11:44 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2007Dec/att-0097/dl-and-full.pdf 18:11:49 were my slides 18:12:11 PDF is OK for now 18:12:12 ACTION: alanr will try to get links as best as possible, and to get slides right 18:12:12 Sorry, couldn't find user - alanr 18:13:01 ACTION:Alan will try to get links updated and link slides int 18:13:21 ACTION: Alan will try to get links updated and link slides int 18:13:21 Created ACTION-61 - Will try to get links updated and link slides int [on Alan Ruttenberg - due 2008-01-16]. 18:13:45 bmotik_ has joined #owl 18:13:50 Topic: working drafts are out, Alan thanks everyone 18:14:01 Zakim, bmotik_ is bmotik 18:14:01 sorry, bmotik_, I do not recognize a party named 'bmotik_' 18:14:05 Thanks to editors. 18:14:12 and there is much rejoicing 18:14:17 bmotik_ has left #owl 18:14:25 Alanr: review actions - I'd like to consider these closed 18:14:36 bmotik_ has joined #owl 18:15:46 ACTION: Alan to add test guidelines to working group to agenda for next week 18:15:46 Created ACTION-62 - Add test guidelines to working group to agenda for next week [on Alan Ruttenberg - due 2008-01-16]. 18:16:59 RESOLVED: all pending review actions on the WIKI are closed [Alan will close] 18:17:14 scribe notes thee are actions 51,52, and 53 18:17:23 Adding a datatype to represent rational numbers 18:17:30 TOPIC: Action Review 18:17:49 http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/OWL_Rational 18:18:19 Ul: working on this, problem is we still are slightly unclear about 18:18:34 s/Ul/Uli 18:18:44 And algebreic numbers 18:18:49 ... do we want rationals, rationals and reals, or what? 18:19:02 issue x^2=2 unsatisfiable for rationals. 18:19:24 ... we're currently looking at a way to go that is a little simpler 18:19:32 q+ 18:19:57 ... I think we can go further, but I would like some feedback 18:19:58 zakim, unmute me 18:19:58 bijan should no longer be muted 18:20:13 Alanr: we need a proposal so we can discuss it 18:20:22 q+ to propose accepting action is done 18:20:44 +1 to closing the *action* 18:20:58 q? 18:21:14 ack 016161 18:21:17 q- 18:21:20 ack aacc 18:21:27 q- +016161aacc 18:21:50 bijan: I'm unclear on where things stand, and there's some related issues - I'd like time to review 18:22:12 alan: action is postponed, Bijan will work w/Uli 18:22:27 q+ 18:22:35 I like rationals 18:22:39 bijan: need to discuss in context of n-ary. Can we discuss with that aproach 18:23:13 q- 18:23:18 q- 18:23:21 Bijan will lead discussion on WG email, action 56 is postponed 18:23:22 ack me 18:23:40 alanr: who would like to be on a task force on imports 18:23:43 zakim, mute me 18:23:43 bijan should now be muted 18:23:51 re: action58 18:23:57 +1 import - no more evenings CET please 18:24:02 +1 18:24:06 +1(no restrctions to time) 18:24:12 +1 18:24:16 +1 (no evenings) 18:24:28 +1 and agree about CET evenings 18:24:34 +1 for import TF 18:24:58 alanr: will set up TF 18:24:59 +1 (but oh I'm sad to do so) 18:25:26 Sandro: suggests use of WBS for surveying times 18:25:38 alanr and sandro will discuss 18:25:49 action58 postponed 18:26:18 -1 to being on imports task force (changed my mine) 18:26:34 please continue action-48 - I have finally scheduled time to do it 18:26:59 action46 continued 18:27:12 TOPIC: FPWDs should be announced wdely 18:27:25 alanr: what relevant lists should we use, who will post 18:27:35 ian: we should do as soon as possible 18:27:50 alanr: what lists, please let us know on irc: 18:27:54 zakim, mute me 18:27:54 pfps was already muted, pfps 18:27:58 semantics-web@w3.org, I'm willing to do it. 18:27:58 q+ 18:28:40 http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Publicity 18:28:53 Should there be some standard announcement text? 18:29:12 -1 to standard text 18:29:42 ok 18:29:44 ian: set up a page in Wiki, if you see a list that isn't included, add the list to the wiki page, and send the announcement - you can use the standard announce from W3C or something more community relevant 18:29:44 +1 to sandro, customized announcement for community 18:30:25 http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Publicity now created, with one entry 18:30:40 alan: what should we do with UFDTF 18:30:46 zakim, unmute me 18:30:46 bijan should no longer be muted 18:31:02 zakim, unmute me 18:31:02 pfps should no longer be muted 18:31:47 I'm also interested in UFDTF, and would like to be included if possible 18:31:48 i will be available next week 18:31:51 hendler: Deb, Vipul, me and a couple of others were also on the list, weren't we? 18:32:06 zakim, mute me 18:32:06 pfps should now be muted 18:32:48 There should be a list in the wiki - Jeremy had chaired a number of calls 18:33:04 membership is supposed to be AlanRuttenberg BijanParsia DebMcGuinness EvanWallace JeremyCarroll JimHendler VipulKashyap MartinDzbor Peter F. Patel-Schneider Elisa Kendall 18:33:08 alan: I will poll folks, look for a time we can do it 18:33:10 q+ 18:33:14 from http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/UFDTF 18:33:22 ack me 18:33:28 q? 18:33:29 ack jjc 18:34:00 jeremy: page has list of people, my recollection is we were going to move earlier - but same day (Mon) 18:34:06 zakim, mute me 18:34:06 bijan should now be muted 18:34:09 alanr: I'll make sure to get more people in 18:34:12 two hours earlier 18:34:49 TOPIC: issue proposals 18:37:14 alanr: issue83 - propose to close as resolved with text as written 18:37:44 alanr: the issue has to make some words w/respect to the relation between DL and Full 18:37:59 +1 18:38:03 +1 (noting OWL Full semantics is likely) 18:38:10 PROPOSED: close (as RESOLVED) Issue 83 (Property Chain Axiom: P1 o P2 => P2 o P1 ) as per email 18:38:12 +1 to resolve issue 83 as proposed 18:38:15 +1 18:38:16 +1 18:38:17 +1 18:38:18 +1 18:38:20 +1 18:38:20 +1 18:38:23 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Jan/0022.html 18:38:23 +1 18:38:25 +1 18:38:25 +0 18:38:38 q+ to comment before closure 18:38:38 +1 to closing ISSUE-83 as proposed 18:38:41 +1 18:38:44 Elisa +1 18:38:48 +1 to close 18:38:53 +0 18:39:03 ack jjc 18:39:03 jjc, you wanted to comment before closure 18:39:28 jeremy: there may be some issues with the OWL Full 1.1 semantics which might cause us to reopen later 18:39:40 Alanr: new info can always let us reopen an issue 18:40:18 discussion of http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Jan/0022.html 18:40:40 q+ 18:41:05 jeremy: just nervous that OWL Full semantics could mean we change things later 18:41:25 My assumptions in voting for this, is that an OWL Full semantics will be quite easy to produce for this 18:41:28 ack ian 18:41:39 I doubt there will be any OWL Full issues 18:42:06 ian: the email says the WG might or might not give the OWL 1.1 full semantics, so closing text doesn't require this 18:42:33 alanr: we have general approval with a couple of abstentions 18:42:34 I am expecting to make a good effort at an OWL Full semantics and expect that to be adequate for this 18:42:54 RESOLVED: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Jan/0022.html 18:43:13 q? 18:43:53 alanr: discussion of issue 55 18:44:14 alanr: we propose to close this as postponed 18:44:23 PROPOSED: close (as POSTPONED) Issue 55 (owl:class v. rdfs:class) per email 18:44:28 PROPOSED: close (as POSTPONED) Issue 55 (owl:class v. rdfs:class) per email 18:44:34 +1 18:44:35 +1 to postpone 18:44:36 +1 18:44:37 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Jan/0023.html 18:44:37 +1 18:44:41 +1 18:44:43 oops +0 18:44:43 +1 18:45:10 +1 18:45:11 +1 18:45:13 PROPOSED: close (as POSTPONED) Issue 55 (owl:class v. rdfs:class) per http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Jan/0023.html 18:45:13 +1 18:45:16 +1 18:45:16 -1 to postpone as I see neither technical nor resource issues to support postponement over resolution 18:45:23 +1 but I'll go on record here that I think "POSTPONED" is substantively meaningless; I don't see that a closed issue is "more" closed than a POSTPONED; but if people feel better with "POSTPONED" I don't care as long as it *is* meaningless 18:45:23 +1 18:45:24 q+ 18:45:34 +1 18:45:35 +1 with bijan's sidenote 18:45:44 ack hendler 18:45:45 +1 18:46:10 I can't live with what Bijan said, but since it just his opinion and not part of the record... 18:46:14 Following a discussion with Ian, in which we acknowledge Peter's 18:46:16 comment below and subsequent discussion on the mailing list, and 18:46:17 Jim's desire to postpone this issue, Ian and I propose that we close 18:46:19 the issue by postponing it, noting Peter's comment. 18:46:51 It is part of the record 18:46:56 How not? 18:46:59 I just put it into the recrod 18:47:33 I will not be registering a formal objection 18:47:44 pfps: votes against, but does not request further discussion 18:47:57 RESOLVED: close (as POSTPONED) Issue 55 (owl:class v. rdfs:class) per http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Jan/0023.html 18:48:09 (I am very confused -- I thought -1 was a formal objection. But this doesn't seem like the issue on which to get into that.) 18:48:38 (basically, Peter, I think what you mean to say is "-0") 18:48:54 TOPIC: Should we keep or abandon data/object property punning 18:49:32 alan: several issues have come up linked together with respect to punning - esp around cardinality restrictions 18:49:42 +q 18:49:43 q? 18:49:45 alan: so some people said maybe we should drop this kind of punning 18:49:51 zakim, unmute me 18:49:51 bmotik should no longer be muted 18:50:20 boris: note that IMO this issue is not just about datatypes, but is general to our approach to typing (cf emails on Dec 15 2007) 18:50:44 q+ 18:50:44 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2007Dec/0184.html 18:50:50 zakim, unmute me 18:50:50 pfps should no longer be muted 18:50:52 ack bmotik 18:50:54 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2007Dec/0185.html 18:50:54 ack pfps 18:51:02 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2007Dec/0186.html 18:51:18 pfps: in some sense I echo Boris' comment, I don't see how abandoning this punning fixes issue 65 18:51:19 I don't see either 18:52:17 alan: as I understand it - there's a relation between vocabulary for easy local typing, as opposed to just the punning 18:52:40 alan: (nots Jon Reese is sitting in on this portion of the call) 18:52:47 s/nots/notes 18:53:09 zakim, unmute me 18:53:09 bijan should no longer be muted 18:53:12 alan: asks about declarations 18:53:27 pfps: not local - each use of a term has to be typed 18:53:38 q+ 18:53:58 bijan: describes issue w/respect to a restriction - how do I know if this is being used as a data or object type 18:54:17 Zakim, mute me 18:54:17 jjc should now be muted 18:54:22 bijan: so problem is we cannot "contextualize" use of a URI 18:54:40 zakim, who is talking? 18:54:50 JeffP, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: bijan (99%), jar (10%), Sandro (11%), hendler (35%) 18:54:53 bijan: with typed vocabulary = "Data somevaluesfrom" ... 18:55:00 ian: will chair so alan will discuss 18:55:06 yes 18:55:21 q? 18:56:00 Zakim, mute hendler 18:56:00 hendler should now be muted 18:56:12 IanH, we can't hear you 18:56:14 unmute me 18:56:17 Jim - I muted you because you seemed to be noisy 18:56:21 zakim, unmute IanH 18:56:21 IanH should no longer be muted 18:56:21 zakim, unmute ian 18:56:22 IanH was not muted, bijan 18:57:10 alan and ian and peter send time discussing how long to discuss the issue instead of discussing it 18:57:17 q? 18:57:18 q? 18:57:22 a+ alanr 18:57:30 q+ alanr 18:57:44 Zakim, unmute me 18:57:44 bmotik should no longer be muted 18:57:48 ian eventually says "Carry on" 18:57:53 ack bmotik 18:58:12 boris: I believe it is slightly misleading to say this is just issue 65 - this comes up a lot 18:58:25 q+ 18:58:41 ian: boris, can you summarize quickly? 18:59:04 boris: our general approach to typing things in ontologies is complex w/respect to a number of issues (parsing RDF, punning, etc.) 18:59:14 note: The intention was to discuss the punning issue here, with 65 as support. I would drop 65 as rationale in order to keep on topic 18:59:16 q? 18:59:29 ... these are relatd, and what we do and don't allow relates to that 18:59:44 Zakim, mute me 18:59:44 bmotik should now be muted 18:59:44 ... in my emails, I discussed typing triples and the compatibilities 18:59:48 ack alanr 19:00:12 q+ to note alternative design on typing triples/declarations 19:00:13 zakim, mute me 19:00:21 pfps should now be muted 19:00:31 alan: I meant primarily to discuss the particular punning issues, so maybe identifying 65 was the issue... I think there are specific problems w/this kind of punning 19:00:55 ... seems if we don't use this we need annotation properties back in 19:01:03 ack bijan 19:01:20 we didn't take annotations out. We took out annotation properties 19:01:32 bijan: one reason we introduced punning was to let more OWL RDF graphs be in DL - punning made some of this easy 19:01:33 there is a different mechanisms 19:01:47 no parallel conversations on IRC please! 19:01:49 ... this way, more things out in the word would not have to worry about DL vs. Full issues 19:02:22 Bijan, even without punning, in OWL 1.0 DL we'd have problems releted to parsing RDF and declarations, particularly when you also have imports 19:02:44 ... there are ways we can look at this - things are either always one or the other, or things could be typed, or (etc) 19:02:53 q? 19:03:39