16:01:30 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #swd
16:01:30 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/01/08-swd-irc
16:01:35 <Ralph> Meeting: SWD WG
16:01:41 <Ralph> zakim, who's on the call?
16:01:51 <guus> zakim, ??p6 is Daniel
16:01:53 <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P6, Guus, ??P30
16:02:05 <Zakim> +Daniel; got it
16:02:15 <guus> zakim, ??p30 is Tom
16:02:33 <Zakim> +Tom; got it
16:02:39 <Zakim> +Ralph
16:03:13 <seanb> seanb has joined #swd
16:03:17 <Zakim> +Quentin
16:03:23 <Zakim> +??P44
16:03:24 <Quentin> Quentin has joined #swd
16:03:37 <Antoine> zakim, P44 is me
16:03:44 <ed> ed has joined #swd
16:03:46 <Zakim> sorry, Antoine, I do not recognize a party named 'P44'
16:03:54 <Antoine> zakim, +
16:03:54 <Zakim> I don't understand '+', Antoine
16:03:56 <Zakim> +Jon_Phipps
16:04:06 <Antoine> zakim, ??P44 is me
16:04:06 <Zakim> +Antoine; got it
16:04:11 <Ralph> zakim, mute antoine
16:04:11 <Zakim> Antoine should now be muted
16:04:15 <Ralph> zakim, unmute antoine
16:04:15 <Zakim> Antoine should no longer be muted
16:04:18 <aliman> aliman has joined #swd
16:04:20 <Ralph> zakim, mute tom
16:04:20 <Zakim> Tom should now be muted
16:04:27 <Zakim> +??P52
16:04:49 <Zakim> +[LC]
16:04:58 <Ralph> zakim, [lc] is Ed
16:04:59 <Zakim> +Ed; got it
16:05:01 <seanb> zakim, ??P52 is me
16:05:05 <Zakim> +seanb; got it
16:05:33 <Ralph> zakim, mute antoine
16:05:48 <Zakim> Antoine should now be muted
16:05:54 <Zakim> +aliman
16:06:00 <guus> zakim, who is here?
16:06:02 <Zakim> +??P58
16:06:06 <Zakim> -Antoine
16:06:11 <Ralph> Chair: Guus
16:06:14 <Ralph> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2008Jan/0005.html
16:06:16 <Zakim> On the phone I see Daniel, Guus, Tom (muted), Ralph, Quentin, JonP, seanb, Ed, aliman, ??P58
16:06:23 <Zakim> On IRC I see aliman, ed, Quentin, seanb, RRSAgent, TomB, guus, Antoine, JonP, mhausenblas, dlrubin, Zakim, Ralph
16:06:33 <Ralph> -> http://www.w3.org/2007/12/18-swd-minutes.html previous 2007-12-18
16:06:44 <Quentin> Happy new year all
16:06:53 <marghe> marghe has joined #swd
16:06:54 <Zakim> + +1.312.042.aaaa
16:07:00 <Zakim> + +043316876aabb
16:07:12 <berrueta> berrueta has joined #swd
16:07:13 <Ralph> zakim, aabb is Michael
16:07:21 <Zakim> +Michael; got it
16:07:40 <marghe> marghe has joined #swd
16:07:50 <Ralph> zakim, aaaa is Antoine
16:07:50 <Zakim> +Antoine; got it
16:08:35 <Ralph> zakim, who's on the call?
16:08:35 <Zakim> On the phone I see Daniel, Guus, Tom (muted), Ralph, Quentin, JonP, seanb, Ed, aliman, ??P58 (muted), Antoine, Michael
16:09:09 <Ralph> zakim, ??p58 is Margherita
16:09:09 <Zakim> +Margherita; got it
16:09:49 <Zakim> +abel
16:09:54 <Ralph> zakim, mute quentin
16:09:54 <Zakim> Quentin should now be muted
16:09:59 <Ralph> zakim, abel is really Diego
16:09:59 <Zakim> +Diego; got it
16:10:33 <JonP> Accepted: Minutes of Dec 18 Telecon
16:10:40 <Ralph> scribe: Jon
16:11:16 <JonP> Agenda: SKOS
16:11:39 <Ralph> rrsagent, please make record public
16:12:38 <Zakim> +Ben_Adida
16:12:43 <aliman> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/track/issues/67 -- state formal definitions
16:12:47 <JonP> Alistair: Has had a look at Tom's comments and has raised Issue-67
16:13:01 <JonP> ...happy to discuss alternatives
16:13:15 <guus> [welcome ben]
16:13:28 <JonP> ACTION: Vit to review Editor's draft of SKOS Reference [recorded in]http://www.w3.org/2007/11/20-swd-minutes.html#action03]
16:13:50 <guus> CONTINUES
16:14:05 <JonP> --continues
16:14:59 <JonP> Alistair: It would be helpful if Quentin could expand on his comments about transitivity
16:15:55 <JonP> Quentin: Couldn't find any agreement on transitivity of broader, narrower but recalls that we had decided not to say anything about transitivity
16:16:18 <JonP> Alistair: what needs to be done to this doc before publishing as WD?
16:16:42 <Zakim> -Ben_Adida
16:17:12 <JonP> Quentin: Need to modify formal definition of exactMatch or change the name to something like 'similarMatch'
16:17:36 <JonP> Alistair: Is a naming issue or a functionality/semantics issue
16:18:24 <JonP> Quentin: If you keep the semantics as is, then you need to change the term. If you keep the term then u need to change the semantics
16:19:46 <JonP> Alistair: Asked myself for every property which ones should be transitive. Trying to stick to Antoine's specs
16:19:50 <seanb> q+ to ask about the definition of "Exact Mapping"
16:20:13 <JonP> Alistair: tooke the most cautious position wrt exactMatch
16:20:26 <JonP> ...should exactMatch be transitive?
16:20:48 <JonP> ...Would answering that question satisfy Quentin's issue?
16:20:53 <Zakim> +benadida
16:21:18 <JonP> Antoine: thinks the name 'exactMatch' may be problematic
16:21:54 <JonP> Sean: There is no notion of what the mapping relation is for exactMatch
16:22:27 <seanb> ack seanb
16:22:27 <Zakim> seanb, you wanted to ask about the definition of "Exact Mapping"
16:22:58 <Ralph> Regrets: Vit, Simone, Justin
16:23:03 <JonP> Alistair: We really wanted to state the formal aspects of the base model without too much additional 'practical' explanation
16:23:31 <JonP> Alistair: Most of this could be explained more fully in the primer and refernces to other docs, like the British standards
16:23:49 <JonP> Guus: So what do we need to resolve before we publish
16:23:52 <JonP> Alistair:
16:24:01 <Antoine> @Jon: I support "exactMatch"!
16:24:29 <JonP> Alistair: Should exactMatch be transitive? Issue 2: What is the transitivity of skos:broader?
16:24:45 <Ralph> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2008Jan/0004.html Quentin's review
16:24:52 <JonP> ...If we resolve those 2, will that make it possible to publish?
16:25:56 <JonP> ...we resolved to say nothing about transitivity of skos:broader, but the prose states that broader is _not_ transitive
16:27:00 <Ralph> Tom's phone just flaked out
16:27:13 <JonP> Guus: Tom, Quentin, (informally) would u vote in favor of publishing if those 2 issues were resolved?
16:27:19 <TomB> okay with me to publish
16:28:32 <JonP> Guus: Alistair, coulkd you please send email on how we should address these issues
16:30:13 <JonP> ACTION: Alistair send an email to the list by the end of next week that the reviewers can agree with and then propose publishing as WD by Jan 22
16:30:59 <JonP> Guus: Comments by non-reviewers should be treated as comments from reviewers
16:31:11 <JonP> ACTION: Quentin to review Editor's draft of SKOS Reference [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/20-swd-minutes.html#action02]
16:31:27 <JonP> --continues
16:31:35 <Ralph> -> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/track/issues/36 issue 36
16:32:01 <JonP> agenda: ISSUE-36
16:32:30 <JonP> ACTION: Alistair and Guus write draft section in primer on relationship between SKOS concepts and OWL classes for OWL DL users [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/06-swd-minutes.html#action05]
16:32:38 <JonP> --continues
16:33:24 <JonP> ACTION: Alistair to propose an approach to clarify which aspects of the extension module should be in scope for the candidate recommendation package. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/12/11-swd-minutes.html#action06]
16:33:28 <JonP> --continues
16:34:10 <aliman> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/SKOS/reference/20071223#L2430 
16:35:10 <JonP> Guus: PROPOSED: Accept Antoine's resolution to ISSUE-36
16:35:12 <ed> JonP++
16:35:15 <mhausenblas> +1
16:35:26 <JonP> RESOLVED
16:36:09 <JonP> ACTION: Alistair and Guus to prepare material for next week on Concept
16:36:11 <JonP> Schemes vs OWL Ontologies [recorded in
16:36:13 <JonP> http://www.w3.org/2007/10/30-swd-minutes.html#action04]
16:36:23 <mhausenblas> -> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/RDFa#RDFa_schedule RDFa schedule
16:36:24 <JonP> --continues
16:36:26 <JonP> ACTION: Guus to write up the issue [of Label Resource] and add to the
16:36:28 <JonP> issue list. [recorded in
16:36:30 <JonP> http://www.w3.org/2007/10/09-swd-minutes.html#action01]
16:36:32 <aliman> My actions under SKOS topic are continued
16:36:36 <JonP> --continues
16:36:46 <JonP> ACTION: Ralph to add pointer to Alistair's mail on grouping constructs
16:36:47 <JonP> as a note to resolution of ISSUE-39. [recorded in
16:36:49 <JonP> http://www.w3.org/2007/12/18-swd-minutes.html#action05]
16:36:51 <JonP> --continues
16:37:00 <JonP> ACTION: Ralph to check whether the common interpretation of [recorded in
16:37:02 <JonP> http://www.w3.org/2007/12/18-swd-minutes.html#action10]
16:37:03 <JonP> --continues
16:37:10 <JonP> agenda: RDFa
16:37:16 <Ralph> Topic: RDFa
16:37:50 <Ralph> i/Agenda: SKOS/Topic: SKOS/
16:37:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/01/08-swd-minutes.html Ralph
16:38:38 <TomB> Jon: It is not clear to me that the resolution on Issue-36 by Antoine has been properly recorded - please recheck
16:39:12 <TomB> ...when the minutes are generated...
16:39:39 <JonP> Daniel: There's still a small issue that needs to be resolved, but it's not worth postponing the review of the draft
16:40:00 <JonP> ...will have version available by next week
16:40:44 <JonP> ...worrying about unintended consequences if the issue isn't resolved before review
16:40:45 <TomB> I suggest Ben take an action
16:41:10 <TomB> Ralph, my phone is bad - can you please convey my suggestion?
16:41:14 <JonP> ...have begun writing the implementation report and this is looking very good
16:42:04 <TomB> Ralph, can you please suggest Ben take an action?
16:42:14 <TomB> The meeting notes do not reflect the process
16:42:18 <TomB> for moving forward with RDFa
16:42:47 <JonP> Diego, Ed: No problem reviewing despite postponement
16:43:09 <JonP> Daniel: Creative Commons is on verge of endorsement of RDFa
16:45:05 <JonP> ACTION: Ben to disribute RDFa syntax draft to reviewers by Monday
16:45:21 <mhausenblas> -> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/implementation-report/ RDFa Implementation Report (first draft) 
16:45:28 <JonP> ACTION: Ben and Michael to address comments by Tom [regarding
16:45:30 <JonP> maintenance of wiki document http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/RDFa]
16:45:33 <JonP> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/08-swd-minutes.html#action05]
16:45:41 <JonP> --continues
16:45:49 <JonP> ACTION: Ben to prepare draft implementation report for RDFa (with
16:45:51 <JonP> assistance from Michael) [recorded in
16:45:52 <JonP> http://www.w3.org/2007/10/08-swd-minutes.html#action03]
16:46:01 <JonP> --continues
16:46:02 <JonP> ACTION: Ben to update RDFa schedule in wiki
16:46:04 <JonP> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/RDFa#RDFa_schedule [recorded in
16:46:06 <JonP> http://www.w3.org/2007/10/08-swd-minutes.html#action04]
16:46:08 <JonP> --done
16:46:16 <JonP> ACTION: Diego to review RDFa syntax document by early January [recorded
16:46:18 <JonP> in http://www.w3.org/2007/12/18-swd-minutes.html#action12]
16:46:21 <JonP> --continues
16:46:29 <JonP> ACTION: Ed to review RDFa syntax document by early January [recorded in
16:46:31 <JonP> http://www.w3.org/2007/12/18-swd-minutes.html#action13]
16:46:34 <JonP> --continues
16:46:47 <Ralph> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2008Jan/0014.html Ed's review
16:46:56 <JonP> topic: Recipes
16:47:36 <Ralph> Ralph: I'm a slacker
16:47:49 <JonP> Guus: Comments in by begiing of next week
16:48:52 <JonP> ...shooting for publication by Jan 22
16:51:10 <JonP> ACTION: Ralph and Ed to review recipes document [recorded in
16:51:12 <JonP> http://www.w3.org/2007/12/11-swd-minutes.html#action18]
16:51:54 <aliman> q+
16:52:40 <JonP> --continues
16:52:51 <aliman> q-
16:53:01 <Ralph> ACTION: Ralph see if W3C Systems Team can help with question on Apache conditional redirects
16:53:21 <JonP> ACTION: Dan to ask apache about conditional redirects [recorded in
16:53:22 <JonP> http://www.w3.org/2007/10/09-swd-minutes.html#action07]
16:53:24 <JonP> --dropped
16:53:37 <JonP> ACTION: Ralph propose resolution to ISSUE-16 "Default behavior"
16:53:39 <JonP> [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/22-swd-minutes.html#action14]
16:53:42 <JonP> --continues
16:53:57 <JonP> ACTION: Ralph/Diego to work on Wordnet implementation [of Recipes
16:53:58 <JonP> implementations] [recorded in
16:54:00 <JonP> http://www.w3.org/2007/10/09-swd-minutes.html#action03]
16:54:02 <JonP> --continues
16:54:18 <JonP> ACTION: Ralph to review recipes document [recorded in
16:54:19 <JonP> http://www.w3.org/2007/12/11-swd-minutes.html#action18]
16:54:23 <JonP> --continues
16:54:40 <JonP> ACTION: Ed to review recipes document [recorded in
16:54:42 <JonP> http://www.w3.org/2007/12/11-swd-minutes.html#action18]
16:54:43 <JonP> --done
16:55:41 <aliman> Can Antoine & Ed give update on primer?
16:56:11 <JonP> return to topic: SKOS
16:56:40 <Antoine> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/SKOS/DraftPrimer
16:57:07 <JonP> Antoine: suggest that we can move forward with the primer without Action 4
16:58:34 <JonP> ...should be ready for review this week
16:59:10 <JonP> Guus: volunteers to review?
16:59:14 <mhausenblas> +1
16:59:52 <JonP> marghe: willing to review
17:00:27 <ed> marghe: thanks!
17:00:32 <marghe> ok for me
17:00:39 <Zakim> -benadida
17:01:01 <JonP> Quentin: I can review too
17:01:20 <ed> JonP, Quentin: thanks!
17:02:06 <Zakim> -Daniel
17:02:17 <ed> Antoine: thanks for all your work on the Primer
17:02:29 <dlrubin> dlrubin has left #swd
17:02:51 <JonP> ACTION: Ralph to add pointer to Alistair's mail on grouping constructs
17:02:53 <JonP> as a note to resolution of ISSUE-39. [recorded in
17:02:55 <JonP> http://www.w3.org/2007/12/18-swd-minutes.html#action05]
17:02:58 <JonP> --continues
17:03:08 <JonP> ACTION: Ralph to check whether the common interpretation of [recorded in
17:03:10 <JonP> http://www.w3.org/2007/12/18-swd-minutes.html#action10]
17:03:12 <JonP> --continues
17:03:26 <Zakim> -Quentin
17:03:31 <Zakim> -Michael
17:03:32 <Zakim> -Diego
17:03:33 <JonP> ACTION: Vit and Elisa to include in the document all the target sections
17:03:34 <Zakim> -seanb
17:03:34 <Zakim> -aliman
17:03:35 <JonP> plus an allocation of sections to people and potentially a standard
17:03:37 <JonP> structure for sections [recorded in
17:03:37 <Zakim> -Margherita
17:03:38 <JonP> http://www.w3.org/2007/10/08-swd-minutes.html#action07]
17:03:39 <Zakim> -Ed
17:03:40 <Zakim> -Antoine
17:03:40 <JonP> --continues
17:03:45 <marghe> marghe has left #swd
17:03:51 <Zakim> -Tom
17:04:02 <ed> Antoine: thanks again for picking up all that slack
17:04:38 <Ralph> zakim, list participants
17:04:38 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Guus, Daniel, Ralph, Quentin, Antoine, JonP, Ed, seanb, aliman, Tom, +1.312.042.aaaa, +043316876aabb, Michael, Margherita, Diego,
17:04:42 <Zakim> ... Ben_Adida, benadida
17:04:47 <Ralph> rrsagent, please draft minutes
17:04:47 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/01/08-swd-minutes.html Ralph
17:04:55 <Zakim> -Guus
17:05:01 <Zakim> -JonP
17:05:03 <Zakim> -Ralph
17:05:10 <Zakim> SW_SWD()11:00AM has ended
17:05:11 <Zakim> Attendees were Guus, Daniel, Ralph, Quentin, Antoine, JonP, Ed, seanb, aliman, Tom, +1.312.042.aaaa, +043316876aabb, Michael, Margherita, Diego, Ben_Adida, benadida
17:05:44 <ed> ed has left #swd
17:05:56 <Ralph> rrsagent, bye
17:05:56 <RRSAgent> I see 25 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2008/01/08-swd-actions.rdf :
17:05:56 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Vit to review Editor's draft of SKOS Reference [recorded in]http://www.w3.org/2007/11/20-swd-minutes.html#action03] [1]
17:05:56 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/01/08-swd-irc#T16-13-28
17:05:56 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Alistair send an email to the list by the end of next week that the reviewers can agree with and then propose publishing as WD by Jan 22 [2]
17:05:56 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/01/08-swd-irc#T16-30-13
17:05:56 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Quentin to review Editor's draft of SKOS Reference [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/20-swd-minutes.html#action02] [3]
17:05:56 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/01/08-swd-irc#T16-31-11
17:05:56 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Alistair and Guus write draft section in primer on relationship between SKOS concepts and OWL classes for OWL DL users [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/06-swd-minutes.html#action05] [4]
17:05:56 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/01/08-swd-irc#T16-32-30
17:05:56 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Alistair to propose an approach to clarify which aspects of the extension module should be in scope for the candidate recommendation package. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/12/11-swd-minutes.html#action06] [5]
17:05:56 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/01/08-swd-irc#T16-33-24
17:05:56 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Alistair and Guus to prepare material for next week on Concept [6]
17:05:56 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/01/08-swd-irc#T16-36-09
17:05:56 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Guus to write up the issue [of Label Resource] and add to the [7]
17:05:56 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/01/08-swd-irc#T16-36-26
17:05:56 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ralph to add pointer to Alistair's mail on grouping constructs [8]
17:05:56 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/01/08-swd-irc#T16-36-46
17:05:56 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ralph to check whether the common interpretation of [recorded in [9]
17:05:56 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/01/08-swd-irc#T16-37-00
17:05:56 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben to disribute RDFa syntax draft to reviewers by Monday [10]
17:05:56 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/01/08-swd-irc#T16-45-05
17:05:56 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben and Michael to address comments by Tom [regarding [11]
17:05:56 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/01/08-swd-irc#T16-45-28
17:05:56 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben to prepare draft implementation report for RDFa (with [12]
17:05:56 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/01/08-swd-irc#T16-45-49
17:05:56 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben to update RDFa schedule in wiki [13]
17:05:56 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/01/08-swd-irc#T16-46-02
17:05:56 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Diego to review RDFa syntax document by early January [recorded [14]
17:05:56 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/01/08-swd-irc#T16-46-16
17:05:56 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ed to review RDFa syntax document by early January [recorded in [15]
17:05:56 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/01/08-swd-irc#T16-46-29
17:05:56 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ralph and Ed to review recipes document [recorded in [16]
17:05:56 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/01/08-swd-irc#T16-51-10
17:05:56 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ralph see if W3C Systems Team can help with question on Apache conditional redirects [17]
17:05:56 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/01/08-swd-irc#T16-53-01
17:05:56 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Dan to ask apache about conditional redirects [recorded in [18]
17:05:56 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/01/08-swd-irc#T16-53-21
17:05:56 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ralph propose resolution to ISSUE-16 "Default behavior" [19]
17:05:56 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/01/08-swd-irc#T16-53-37
17:05:56 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ralph/Diego to work on Wordnet implementation [of Recipes [20]
17:05:56 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/01/08-swd-irc#T16-53-57
17:05:56 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ralph to review recipes document [recorded in [21]
17:05:56 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/01/08-swd-irc#T16-54-18
17:05:56 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ed to review recipes document [recorded in [22]
17:05:56 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/01/08-swd-irc#T16-54-40
17:05:56 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ralph to add pointer to Alistair's mail on grouping constructs [23]
17:05:56 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/01/08-swd-irc#T17-02-51
17:05:56 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ralph to check whether the common interpretation of [recorded in [24]
17:05:56 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/01/08-swd-irc#T17-03-08
17:05:56 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Vit and Elisa to include in the document all the target sections [25]
17:05:56 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/01/08-swd-irc#T17-03-33
17:06:25 <Antoine> Antoine has left #swd
17:07:48 <seanb> seanb has left #swd