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15:47:08 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/01/03-xproc-irc
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15:47:12 <Norm> Zakim, this will be xproc
15:47:12 <Zakim> ok, Norm; I see XML_PMWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 13 minutes
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15:53:28 <Norm> Meeting: XML Processing Model WG
15:53:28 <Norm> Date: 3 January 2008
15:53:28 <Norm> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2008/01/03-agenda
15:53:28 <Norm> Meeting: 96
15:53:28 <Norm> Chair: Norm
15:53:29 <Norm> Scribe: Norm
15:53:31 <Norm> ScribeNick: Norm
15:57:15 <Zakim> XML_PMWG()11:00AM has now started
15:57:22 <Zakim> +Norm
15:58:40 <alexmilowski> alexmilowski has joined #xproc
16:00:50 <ht> ht has joined #xproc
16:01:12 <ht> zakim, please call ht-781
16:01:12 <Zakim> ok, ht; the call is being made
16:01:14 <Zakim> +Ht
16:01:25 <richard> richard has joined #xproc
16:01:50 <MSM> zakim, please call me at Office
16:01:50 <Zakim> ok, MSM; the call is being made
16:01:51 <Zakim> +MSM
16:01:57 <Zakim> + +1.415.404.aaaa
16:01:59 <Zakim> +??P8
16:01:59 <richard> zakim, ? is me
16:01:59 <Zakim> +richard; got it
16:02:28 <Norm> Zakim, who's on the phone?
16:02:28 <Zakim> On the phone I see Norm, Ht, MSM, richard, +1.415.404.aaaa
16:02:33 <Norm> Zakim, aaaa is alexmilowski 
16:02:33 <Zakim> +alexmilowski; got it
16:03:14 <Norm> Regrets: Alessandro, Paul
16:03:22 <Norm> Present: Norm, Michael, Henry, Richard, Alex
16:03:25 <MoZ> MoZ has joined #xproc
16:03:49 <MoZ> Zakim, what is the code ?
16:03:49 <Zakim> the conference code is 97762 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), MoZ
16:04:13 <Norm> Regrets: Alessandro, Paul, Murray
16:04:31 <Zakim> +MoZ
16:05:06 <Norm> Present: Norm, Michael, Henry, Richard, Alex, Mohamed
16:05:08 <Zakim> +??P14
16:05:12 <Norm> Present: Norm, Michael, Henry, Richard, Alex, Mohamed, Rui
16:05:22 <Norm> Topic: Accept this agenda?
16:05:22 <Norm> -> http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2008/01/03-agenda
16:05:24 <ruilopes> Zakim, ? is me
16:05:24 <Zakim> +ruilopes; got it
16:05:41 <Norm> Accepted.
16:05:42 <Zakim> +??P16
16:05:49 <Norm> Present: Norm, Michael, Henry, Richard, Alex, Mohamed, Rui, Andrew
16:05:58 <Norm> Zakim, ??P16 is Andrew
16:05:58 <Zakim> +Andrew; got it
16:06:05 <Norm> Topic: Accept minutes from the previous meeting?
16:06:05 <Norm> -> http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2007/12/20-minutes
16:06:10 <Norm> Accepted.
16:06:17 <Norm> Topic: Next meeting: telcon 10 January 2008?
16:06:31 <Norm> No regrets given.
16:07:15 <Norm> Topic: Last call comments
16:07:15 <Norm> -> http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2007/09/lastcall/comments.html
16:08:03 <Norm> Topic: 81. A proposal to restructure our top-level syntax
16:09:00 <Norm> Norm wonders if Alex has any thoughts.
16:09:03 <Norm> Alex: I generally like it.
16:09:37 <Norm> Alex wonders if there are any controversial parts in the minds of others
16:09:39 <Norm> Silence
16:10:00 <Norm> Norm: Is there anyone on the call that thinks we shouldn't do this?
16:10:30 <Norm> Michael: The fundamental idea seems good. Some of the special cases for defaulting are problematic.
16:11:44 <Norm> Alex: When you have a p:pipeline, any inputs and outputs are additive, is that right?
16:12:02 <Norm> Richard: Yes, as I framed it, p:pipeline is just syntactic sugar for a declaration with a p:input and a p:output.
16:12:33 <Norm> ...The advantage it gives is that there's a fully explicit syntax for things.
16:12:46 <Norm> ...If you want an abbreviated syntax, then p:pipeline is it, and the abbreviation seems to me to be very straightforwarde.
16:12:50 <Norm> s/forwarde/forward/
16:12:59 <Norm> Alex: Can you point to a p:pipeline to import it.
16:13:10 <Norm> Richard: I don't see why not.
16:13:30 <Norm> In fact, you can point to all three, a p:pipeline, a p:declare-step, or a p:library.
16:14:26 <Norm> Some discussion of the fact that this means you can point to a declare-step implemented by other means as well.
16:14:45 <Norm> Let's consider the options in Richard's proposal:
16:14:56 <Norm> 1. How to refer to pipeline input ports within a subpipeline.
16:16:03 <Norm> Norm: I have a preference for using the local name of the type.
16:17:09 <MoZ> ##local
16:17:12 <Norm> Richard: That has an impact on option 3, since it will make some inputs totally unavaiable.
16:17:27 <Norm> Alex: Why not make the type required.
16:17:40 <Norm> Henry: You could do that, you could take 1 and 3 as a package solution.
16:18:16 <Norm> Henry expresses a preference for requiring the name if we don't go with the absent step attribute shortcut.
16:18:23 <Norm> s/the name/the type/
16:19:05 <Norm> Henry: The advantage of requiring all pipelines to be typed is that it means you can always import them.
16:19:29 <Norm> Richard: And conversely, having untyped pipelines allows authors to prevent them from being reused.
16:19:47 <richard> s/reused/reused without copying/
16:21:01 <Norm> Mohamed: I prefer to use the local name as well. Omitting the name is just too complicated to understand.
16:21:16 <Norm> So, for option 1, we'll use the local name of the step type.
16:21:44 <Norm> 2. Should the defaulted input and output on p:pipeline have referenceable names.
16:22:15 <Norm> Richard: I think that if they don't have referencable names, how can you call the pipeline? That's compelling to me.
16:23:04 <Norm> Norm: I feel a little odd because we've made the other choice elsewhere.
16:23:13 <Norm> Richard: yes, but no where else is it exposed externally.
16:23:15 <Norm> s/yes/Yes/
16:23:49 <Norm> Anyone disagree?
16:25:17 <Norm> Mohamed points out that you could still call them, as long as the call used the primary input port.
16:25:38 <Norm> Richard: I think the the point of the simplification is that it simplifies things for the author, it shouldn't constrain the user.
16:25:41 <Norm> s/the the/the/
16:26:30 <Norm> Ok, for 2, we'll use the names "source" and "result"
16:27:49 <Norm> 3. The type attribute is optional on p:pipeline.
16:29:17 <Norm> Norm: I think at the moment I favor making it optional, the point of the default syntax is to make things simple and requiring a type you never use doesn't seem simple.
16:29:27 <Norm> Henry: I think we should try that and see if we get pushback.
16:29:50 <Norm> So, for 3, we leave it optional.
16:31:41 <Norm> Norm summarizes the consequences of the choices.
16:32:27 <Norm> Richard: I left the 'primary' off of my equivalence summary in email.
16:36:52 <Norm> Mohamed: I'm wondering about the mandatory nature of input and output in the p:pipeline case.
16:37:22 <Norm> Norm: I think pipelines that have no input or no output are going to be much less common.
16:37:28 <richard> It's not "do something extra if you want to reuse", it's "don't use this abbrevation if you want to reuse"
16:41:05 <Norm> ACTION: Norm to craft an editor's draft implementing these decisions
16:41:18 <Norm> Topic: 90. Questions and comments
16:41:22 <Norm> s/90/89/
16:41:38 <Norm> Norm: On closer inspection, I decided that these were editorial or clarifications.
16:42:45 <Norm> Topic: Future plans
16:43:08 <Norm> Norm: Seems like we're done.
16:43:11 <Norm> Henry: Time for a last call.
16:43:25 <Norm> Richard: Do we want to introduce this renaming in a last call.
16:44:06 <Norm> Norm muses about that.
16:44:41 <Norm> Norm: I guess it's time to get an editor's draft out that includes all of the decisions we've made.
16:45:07 <Norm> Norm: Anyone know of anything else that's outstanding?
16:45:21 <Norm> Mohamed: At some point we talked about splitting the spec.
16:45:29 <Norm> Richard: Having the step library separate, you mean?
16:45:32 <Norm> Mohamed: yes.
16:46:07 <Norm> Norm: I'll put that on the agenda for next week.
16:46:14 <Norm> Topic: Any other business?
16:46:21 <Norm> None.
16:46:32 <Norm> Adjourned.
16:46:35 <Zakim> -richard
16:46:36 <Zakim> -ruilopes
16:46:36 <Zakim> -Andrew
16:46:37 <Zakim> -Ht
16:46:38 <Zakim> -MoZ
16:46:44 <Zakim> -MSM
16:51:35 <Zakim> -Norm
16:51:37 <Zakim> -alexmilowski
16:51:38 <Zakim> XML_PMWG()11:00AM has ended
16:51:39 <Zakim> Attendees were Norm, Ht, MSM, +1.415.404.aaaa, richard, alexmilowski, MoZ, ruilopes, Andrew
16:58:46 <Norm> RRSAgent, set logs world-visible
16:58:49 <Norm> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:58:49 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/01/03-xproc-minutes.html Norm
17:13:26 <Norm> Norm has joined #xproc
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