UFDTF/Minutes/26Nov07IRC

*** Opened channel log for #owl at 26/11/2007 16:55:40
[16:55] *** jjc (jjc@192.6.10.2) has joined #owl
[16:55] *** bijan (bjp@130.88.198.12) has joined #owl
 [16:55] <bijan> zakim, who's here?
 [16:55] *** Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.30) has joined #owl
 [16:55] <bijan> zakim, who's here?
 [16:56] <Zakim> sorry, bijan, I don't know what conference this is
[16:56] <Zakim> On IRC I see bijan, jjc, pfps, Carsten, IanH, sandro, ewallace, trackbot-ng
[16:56] [jjc] Zakim, this is SW_OWL
[16:56] <Zakim> ok, jjc; that matches SW_OWL()12:00PM
[16:56] <bijan> zakim, who's here?
[16:56] <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P2, ??P5
[16:56] <Zakim> On IRC I see bijan, jjc, pfps, Carsten, IanH, sandro, ewallace, trackbot-ng
[16:56]  * Zakim hears ??P5's hand up
[16:56]  * Zakim sees ??P5 on the speaker queue
[16:56] [jjc] Zakim, ??P5 is me
[16:56] <Zakim> +jjc; got it
[16:56] <bijan> What command did you use?
[16:56] <bijan> zakim, ??p2 is me
[16:56] <Zakim> +bijan; got it
[16:56] [jjc] 41#
[16:56]  * Zakim hears bijan's hand up
[16:57]  * Zakim sees ??P5, bijan on the speaker queue
[16:57] [jjc] ack
[16:57] [jjc] ack
[16:57] <bijan> zakim, mute me
[16:57] <Zakim> bijan should now be muted
[16:57] [jjc] q?
[16:57]  * Zakim sees ??P5, bijan on the speaker queue
[16:57] [jjc] q-
[16:57]  * Zakim sees ??P5, bijan on the speaker queue
[16:57] [jjc] q- ??P5
[16:57]  * Zakim sees bijan on the speaker queue
[16:57] [jjc] q- bijan
[16:57]  * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
[16:57]  * bijan tries zakim obliterate queue
[16:57] <bijan> I am muted :)
[16:58] <bijan> They cut my vocal cords
[16:58] <bijan> And burned the nerves that control my lips
[16:58] *** jjc is now known as Jeremy
[16:58] <bijan> Then sewed my lips together
[16:58] [Jeremy] Zakim, jjc is Jeremy
[16:58] <Zakim> +Jeremy; got it
[16:59] <Zakim> +Vipul_Kashyap
[17:00]  * bijan 's fist remains mighty
[17:00] <Zakim> +Evan_Wallace
[17:00] <Zakim> +??P8
[17:00] <pfps> zakim, ??p8 is me
[17:00] <Zakim> +pfps; got it
[17:00] <pfps> zakim, mute me
[17:00] <Zakim> pfps should now be muted
[17:00]  * pfps hi
[17:00] *** Vipul (aadff7f8@207.250.49.24) has joined #owl
[17:01] <Zakim> + +049351aaaa
[17:01] <Carsten> zakim, aaaa is carsten
[17:01] <Zakim> +carsten; got it
[17:01] *** alanr (chatzilla@128.30.5.82) has joined #owl
[17:01] <Carsten> zakim, mute me
[17:01] <Zakim> carsten should now be muted
[17:01] <Zakim> +[MIT-G346]
[17:02] <alanr> zakim, [MIT-G346] is me
[17:02] <Zakim> +alanr; got it
[17:02] *** hendler (chatzilla@128.113.47.141) has joined #owl
[17:02] <hendler> this looks like the right place - what is the zakim code for UFDTF?
[17:02] [Jeremy] http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/UFDTF/Agenda
[17:02] [Jeremy] OWLWG
[17:02] [Jeremy] ie 69594
[17:02] [Jeremy] #
[17:03] <ewallace> NIST folk are experiencing some tech difficulties calling in
[17:03]  * pfps not using standards?  :-)
[17:04] [Jeremy] Zakim, who's on the call?
[17:04] <Zakim> On the phone I see bijan (muted), Jeremy, Vipul_Kashyap, Evan_Wallace, pfps (muted), carsten (muted), alanr
[17:05] <Carsten> jeremy: any way to improve the sound quality of your phone? Very hard to understand!
[17:05] <pfps> +1 previous minutes OK - meeting page should be edited to make the UFDTF entries look like the main entries
[17:05] *** dlm (dlm@72.224.56.157) has joined #owl
[17:05] <Carsten> yes!!
[17:05]  * pfps better souns
[17:05] <Zakim> + +1.518.276.aabb
[17:06] <hendler> zakim, aabb is jhendler
[17:06] <Zakim> +jhendler; got it
[17:06] <Carsten> +1 approve
[17:06] [Jeremy] Minutes approved
[17:06] [Jeremy] http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/UFDTF/Minutes/15Nov07
[17:06] <Zakim> + +1.518.608.aacc
[17:06] <dlm> the last number is Deborah McGuinness
[17:07] <Carsten> maybe we decide that at the end?
[17:07] <Zakim> +Conrad
[17:07] <alanr> I will not be available
[17:07] [Jeremy] Zakim, aacc is Deborah
[17:07] <Zakim> +Deborah; got it
[17:07] <pfps> a meeting next week would probably be useful
[17:08] [Jeremy] Evan regrets for next week, if we have a meeting
[17:08] <alanr> Alan regrets for next week, if we have a meeting
[17:08] [Jeremy] jjc: meetign next week may be useful, let's have one unless we choose not to
[17:09]  * hendler sent some mail on audiences to WG - was not in a form I felt comfortable wiki-ing, just went out today...
[17:10] <alanr> http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Who_Reads_Our_Documents
[17:10] <alanr> better to have ugly wiki, than ephemeral email
[17:10] <hendler> q+ to answer JEremy's question
[17:10]  * Zakim sees hendler on the speaker queue
[17:11]  * bijan wonders if jeremy is ok in splitting RDF and XML hackers since I think they are very different
[17:11] <bijan> Email: http://www.w3.org/mid/A80EEDE0-78C6-4B64-AE53-C5FECF636142@cs.rpi.edu
[17:11] [Jeremy] jeremy: martin is not here, anyone want to take seat
[17:11] <bijan> Where is this evidence?
[17:11] [Jeremy] jim: we have good evidence that previous docs were used
[17:11] [Jeremy] so we should be maintaining that
[17:11] [Jeremy] deborah: +1 to jim
[17:12] <alanr> current documents are the only ones that are there. So of course they are used. Can we do better? Probably yes.
[17:12] *** IanH (horrocks@163.1.124.169) has quit IRC [Quit: IanH]
[17:12] [Jeremy] vipul: we should be reasching agreemtn on users
[17:12] <ewallace> It's helpful to understand what the audience is for those docs.
[17:12] [Jeremy] jim: we've already done that
[17:12] [Jeremy] (for OWL 1.0)
[17:12] [Jeremy] jim: why does knowing more about the reader help
[17:12] [Jeremy] vipul: different readers need different answers
[17:13] [Jeremy] vipul: let's go to xquery web page
[17:13] <alanr> Jim, knowing something about the reader is important, at least for those who weren't there the first time
[17:13] [Jeremy] vipul: they have identified four readers
[17:13] [Jeremy] (copied into "Who reads our documents")
[17:13] [Jeremy] vipul: I see clearly different concern for different users
[17:14] [Jeremy] vipul: gives examples from XQuery
[17:15] <alanr> As a benchmark, I estimate it was a year before I understood OWL to my satisfaction.
[17:15] <alanr> That's too long.
[17:15] <alanr> http://www.w3.org/XML/Query/
[17:16] *** IanH (horrocks@163.1.124.169) has joined #owl
[17:16] <bijan> Vipul doesn't speak for me on the successfulness evaluation
[17:16] <Vipul> http://www.w3.org/XML/Query/
[17:16] [Jeremy] jim: I hear vipul arguing for one more document
[17:16] <dlm> +queue
[17:16]  * Zakim sees hendler, dlm on the speaker queue
[17:17] <hendler> q-
[17:17] [Jeremy] alan: I think we need to think more clearly
[17:17]  * Zakim sees dlm on the speaker queue
[17:17] [Jeremy] alan: several documents, some confusion about which one to read
[17:17] <bijan> q+
[17:17]  * Zakim sees dlm, bijan on the speaker queue
[17:18] [Jeremy] alan: many people have tried to read the docs, and they don't get it - e,g, open world assumpltion lack of unique name assumption
[17:18] [Jeremy] alan: typical usecases e.g. RDMS to OWL that document doesn't give you toehold
[17:18] [Jeremy] alan: too little on inferrences
[17:18] [Jeremy] alan: people say you should write a cook book
[17:19] [Jeremy] (jim: Dean and I have been writing one)
[17:19] [Jeremy] alan: documentation was good for purpose, but not end of story
[17:19] [Jeremy] q+ vipul
[17:19]  * Zakim sees dlm, bijan, vipul on the speaker queue
[17:20]  * hendler wants to be clear - I was not arging against other new things, but suggesting maintenance of the existing documents
[17:20] [Jeremy] dlm: I want some level of maintenance of docs that are alreasdy used
[17:20] [Jeremy] hendler agreed
[17:20] [Jeremy] dlm:  e.g. overview briefness on each constructor was good and should be maintenance
[17:21] <bijan> zakim, unmute me
[17:21] <Zakim> bijan should no longer be muted
[17:21] [Jeremy] alan: I think the good points should be maintained, not clear whether that means the current docs are the right form
[17:21] [Jeremy] bijan: I am not so sure that these docs are not heavily used, my experience appears to be different from deb and jim
[17:22] [Jeremy] bijan: some things seem to be misleading because of simplifications in OWL Reference
[17:22]  * hendler Google rank for overview, reference, guide = 8; SAS and use cases = 7 -- all pretty good
[17:22] [Jeremy] bijan: everything we produce needs to bear in mind the difficulties of incorrect doc
[17:23] [Jeremy] bijan: we have lots of things like Wikipedia, Web etc. I put emphasis on non-W3C docs
[17:23] <bijan> zakim, mute me
[17:23] <Zakim> bijan should now be muted
[17:23] [Jeremy] vipul: we shouldn't worry about W3C doc or not for now
[17:23] <Zakim> -alanr
[17:24] <bijan> Uhm...we're a w3c working group! Isn't that what we're supposed to be focusing on?
[17:24]  * hendler agrees w/Bijan that implementor docs need to be clear, but I didn't think that was the OWL 1.1 issue - seems we have implementors (and maybe only implementors) covered
[17:24] <Zakim> +[MIT-G346]
[17:24] <alanr> zakim, [MIT-G346] is me
[17:24] <Zakim> +alanr; got it
[17:24] [Jeremy] scribe missed vipul's points
[17:24] <bijan> Jim, it's not jsut for implementers...its' when a user comes to me and says "pellet is wrong...look at the reference"
[17:24] [Jeremy] domain issues - we need to provide specific domains for different people
[17:24] <hendler> so I agree the documents need to be as correct as we can make them.  That doesn't argue to me to get rid of the reference
[17:25] <hendler> see my point re "irreflexive"
[17:25] <bijan> I'm just saying there is a cost
[17:25] [Jeremy] comment from vipul
[17:25] <bijan> So I prefer streamlined to lots of document
[17:25] <Zakim> -carsten
[17:25] <hendler> agree there is a cost, I think losing the documents has higher cost
[17:25] <bijan> I.e., guide and reference overlap substantially
[17:26] [Jeremy] jim: I think there are several different users, but current docs are already useful; let's do clarificarion clean-up etc and update for OWL 1.1 seems good
[17:27] <bijan> Jim, do they have to be rec track for you?>
[17:27] [Jeremy] jim: but writing new docs is more work 
[17:27] <bijan> Or could they be submissions?
[17:27] [Jeremy] jjc: end of item for now - more at f2f
[17:27] <bijan> er WG Notes
[17:27] <alanr> http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Who_Reads_Our_Documents
[17:27] <bijan> q+
[17:27]  * Zakim sees dlm, bijan, vipul on the speaker queue
[17:28] [Jeremy] continue 22
[17:28] <alanr> ack dlm
[17:28]  * Zakim sees bijan, vipul on the speaker queue
[17:28]  * bijan on
[17:28] <alanr> ack vipul
[17:28]  * Zakim sees bijan on the speaker queue
[17:28] <bijan> zakim, unmute me
[17:28] <Zakim> bijan should no longer be muted
[17:29] [Jeremy] other actions are done
[17:29] <bijan> zakim, mute me
[17:29] <Zakim> bijan should now be muted
[17:29] [Jeremy] bijan will split RDF and XML hackers apart
[17:29] [Jeremy] http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Who_Reads_Our_Documents
[17:30] <alanr> Descriptions of examples of readers who would be reading our user facing documents.
[17:31]  * bijan notes that he's been working on a UFD: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/OWL_Numerics
[17:31]  * hendler notes -1 on "this theory"
[17:32]  * alanr surprised that "this theory" would be controversial...
[17:32] <pfps> bijan's document seems to me to be much better "reference" material than the current reference
[17:32]  * alanr isn't it first: requiremens, second:design?
[17:33]  * bijan surprised that alanr would find that *anything* being controversial is surprising :)
[17:33] [Jeremy] A brief discussion of "this theory" being that we start with descriptions of readers, and write docs for them to read.
[17:33] <alanr> s/requiremens/requirements/
[17:33] <pfps> ... although not suitable to me as part of an overview
[17:33] [Jeremy] There is dispute as to whether that is the right way to go.
[17:33]  * alanr )
[17:34] [Jeremy] Bijan's doc was  he's been working on a UFD: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/OWL_Numerics
[17:34] <Vipul> Can we state the dispute explicitly?
[17:34]  * bijan says something vitally important that reconciles everyone on
[17:34]  * bijan everything
[17:34]  * bijan notes the crowd goes WILD
[17:35]  * hendler disagrees with Bijan
[17:35]  * pfps bijan is not keeping up with his usual level of utility
[17:35] [Jeremy] jim: I do a lot of writing,
[17:35]  * bijan that "Bijan" is different than "bijan" :)
[17:35] [Jeremy] jim: WG docs have huge audience, spending too much time to profile the reader is not very profitable
[17:36] <bijan> Jim's point seems to be an argument for minimality
[17:36] [Jeremy] jjc paraphrases: any particular profile will be to specific and miss majpoirty of our audience
[17:36] <ewallace> agree that we shouldn't spend too much time on IDing user types
[17:36] <hendler> no bijan, it's a argument to try to find some general levels of knowledge and write to those
[17:37] [Jeremy] jjc: two very specific profiles 
[17:37] [Jeremy] we could have OWL for X where X varies
[17:37] <alanr> q+
[17:37]  * Zakim sees bijan, alanr on the speaker queue
[17:37] [Jeremy] vipul: pull on work from MIchael and Christine
[17:37] <bijan> q-
[17:37]  * Zakim sees alanr on the speaker queue
[17:38] [Jeremy] alan: I write specifics because stuff that is too general is scary
[17:38] [Jeremy] alan: my example could be generalized across science
[17:38] [Jeremy] alan: but we should have a busienss example
[17:39] <dlm> +q
[17:39]  * Zakim sees alanr, dlm on the speaker queue
[17:39] [Jeremy] alan: we need to be able to evaluate how well we are doing
[17:40] [Jeremy] alan: let's get new blood on, which means the old people need to share better the valeus of the docs
[17:40] <bijan> I'd love a justification of having the reference *and* the guide, for example.
[17:40] <bijan> I could
[17:40] <bijan> Or solicit one
[17:40] [Jeremy] action: jeremy to write up business user 
[17:40]  * trackbot-ng noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
[17:40] <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-30 - Write up business user  [on Jeremy Carroll - due 2007-12-03].
[17:41] <bijan> I am a student
[17:41] [Jeremy] action: bijan to write up or solicit business user 
[17:41]  * trackbot-ng noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
[17:41] <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-31 - Write up or solicit business user  [on Bijan Parsia - due 2007-12-03].
[17:41] <bijan> That's fine
[17:41] [Jeremy] q- dlm
[17:41]  * Zakim sees alanr on the speaker queue
[17:41]  * hendler wonders if Bijan is a "typical" student :-)
[17:41] [Jeremy] q- alanr
[17:41]  * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
[17:41] *** cgi-irc (810620b3@128.30.52.23) has joined #owl
[17:42] [Jeremy] dlm: should we modify old profiles or add new ones
[17:42]  * bijan *defines* typicality
[17:42] [Jeremy] alan: ask on a case by case basis
[17:43] <alanr> zakim, who is on the call
[17:43] <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is on the call', alanr
[17:43] <alanr> zakim, who is here?
[17:43] <Zakim> On the phone I see bijan (muted), Jeremy, Vipul_Kashyap, Evan_Wallace, pfps (muted), jhendler, Deborah, Conrad, alanr
[17:43] <Zakim> On IRC I see cgi-irc, IanH, dlm, hendler, alanr, Vipul, Zakim, bijan, Jeremy, pfps, Carsten, sandro, ewallace, trackbot-ng
[17:43] [Jeremy] vipul: should we generalise the bioinformatics example?
[17:43] [Jeremy] jjc: I think it would be helpful to note on that example
[17:44] [Jeremy] alan: it is of course best when we have an identifiable person
[17:45] <pfps> zakim, unmute me
[17:45] <Zakim> pfps should no longer be muted
[17:45]  * bijan has a telecon customer
[17:45] [Jeremy] jjc: evan please add appropriate action 
[17:45] <pfps> zakim, mute me
[17:45] <Zakim> pfps should now be muted
[17:46] <alanr> Conrad: Metamodelers
[17:46] [Jeremy] conrad: one group of users do metamodelling
[17:46] <bijan> BT uses owl
[17:46] [Jeremy] extend OWL for process modelling, or business modelling or ....
[17:46] [Jeremy] it is good to have something on metamodelling
[17:47] [Jeremy] dlm will ping elisa to get input
[17:47] <ewallace> action: evan to write up some mfg user classes
[17:47]  * trackbot-ng noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
[17:47] <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-32 - Write up some mfg user classes [on Evan Wallace - due 2007-12-03].
[17:47] [Jeremy] action deborah to ask elisa for metamodeller
[17:47] [Jeremy] action: deborah to ask elisa for metamodeller reader description
[17:47]  * trackbot-ng noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
[17:47] <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-33 - Ask elisa for metamodeller reader description [on Deborah McGuinness - due 2007-12-03].
[17:47] <pfps> zakim, unmute me
[17:47] <Zakim> pfps should no longer be muted
[17:48] *** IanH (horrocks@163.1.124.169) has quit IRC [Quit: IanH]
[17:48]  * bijan imagines interview himself, "Would you say that your experience is paradigmatic or *absolutely* paradigmatic?"
[17:48] [Jeremy] action: pfps to write up telecom user ... (maybe)
[17:48]  * trackbot-ng noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
[17:48] <trackbot-ng> Sorry, couldn't find user - pfps
[17:48] <pfps> zakim, mute me
[17:48] <Zakim> pfps should now be muted
[17:48] [Jeremy] action: peter to write up telecom user ... (maybe)
[17:48]  * trackbot-ng noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
[17:48] <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-34 - Write up telecom user ... (maybe) [on Peter Patel-Schneider - due 2007-12-03].
[17:49]  * hendler didn't know muzzling peter was an option :-)
[17:49]  * pfps it isn't but ignoring me has the same effect :-(
[17:49]  * alanr funniest wg meeting yet. Thanks, I needed that!
[17:49] [Jeremy] vipul: actions 24 and 25, were done; but Christine replied about nature of collaboration
[17:50] [Jeremy] how are we going to coordiante? etc.? etc.?
[17:50]  * alanr last time I tried to relax I say this movie: http://www.google.com/movies/reviews?cid=b8d1088d618f18ce&oi=moviesr&hl=en
[17:50]  * alanr didn't work :(
[17:50] *** pfps (pfps@193.206.186.101) has quit IRC [Client exited]
[17:50] <alanr> s/say/saw/
[17:50] <bijan> To my knowledge nothing has happened in the TF yet
[17:50] [Jeremy] not heard whether they are happy to present.
[17:50] *** pfps (pfps@193.206.186.101) has joined #owl
[17:50] <hendler> q+ to ask about relationship to "Owled"?
[17:50]  * Zakim sees hendler on the speaker queue
[17:51] <bijan> The task force web page was last updated Oct 11: http://code.google.com/p/owl1-1/wiki/UserRequirements
[17:52] [Jeremy] UFDTF Clarify attribution issues for non-WG authors  - jjc
[17:52] [Jeremy] action 23 
[17:52] <bijan> jim, Michel Dumontier and Christine Golbriech
[17:52] <pfps> zakim, mute me
[17:52] <Zakim> pfps was already muted, pfps
[17:52] [Jeremy] jjc: has asked sandro, but no clarification yet
[17:52] <hendler> ok, who are Michel Dumontier and Christine Golbriech?
[17:53] <bijan> HCLS users
[17:53] <bijan> Christine was a PC chair of OWLED2007 and is point person for the OWLED requriements task force
[17:54] <bijan> Michel made the table: http://clarkparsia.com/weblog/2007/06/18/two-interesting-quotes/
[17:54] <hendler> thanks
[17:54] <bijan> I worry about the ever expanding scope
[17:54] <bijan> q+
[17:54]  * Zakim sees hendler, bijan on the speaker queue
[17:55] <hendler> q-
[17:55]  * Zakim sees bijan on the speaker queue
[17:55] <hendler> +1 to Bijan re: ever expanding scope (strangelt enough)
[17:55] [Jeremy] jjc: we could just provide pointers to their docs, but it would be better to acknowledge them fully
[17:55] <bijan> :)
[17:55] [Jeremy] particulary fi we have large quotes
[17:56] *** hendler (chatzilla@128.113.47.141) has quit IRC [Client exited]
[17:56] <bijan> There are an aribtrary number of people who *could* usefully contribute
[17:56] <bijan> There are a number of tutorials, for example
[17:56] *** hendler (chatzilla@128.113.47.141) has joined #owl
[17:56] <pfps> carlton university, ottawa, ontario, canada
[17:56] <bijan> Any number of blog posts, developer articles, etc.
[17:57] [Jeremy] Micahel is likely to be at OWLED, and so could be invited to present to F2F2
[17:57] [Jeremy] or we could discuss stuff with him
[17:58] <bijan> That confusion has continued
[17:58] <bijan> I've had to correct several people
[17:58] [Jeremy] jim: some people felt that OWLED had privileged position, and this is inappropriate
[17:59] <bijan> Shouldn't those go to SWEO?
[17:59] <bijan> SWEO already has some OWL use cases
[18:00]  * bijan calls the RPI president and leans!
[18:01] <bijan> I thought jim was "at risk" not definitely not attending
[18:02] <Zakim> -Evan_Wallace
[18:02] <Zakim> -alanr
[18:02] <Zakim> -Vipul_Kashyap
[18:02] <Zakim> -Conrad
[18:02] <Zakim> -Deborah
[18:02] <Zakim> -bijan
[18:02] <Zakim> -Jeremy
[18:02] <Zakim> -jhendler
[18:03] <Zakim> -pfps
[18:03]  * alanr still at risk. Didn't say he couldn't attend - just that there were issues
[18:03] <Zakim> SW_OWL()12:00PM has ended
[18:03] <Zakim> Attendees were bijan, Jeremy, Vipul_Kashyap, Evan_Wallace, pfps, +049351aaaa, carsten, alanr, +1.518.276.aabb, jhendler, +1.518.608.aacc, Conrad, Deborah
[18:03] [Jeremy] jjc: I need to think about F2F, and arrange time with chairs for TF at F2F, and use next weeks meeting for last minute planning

Last modified on 30 November 2007, at 12:25