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UFDTF/Minutes/26Nov07IRC
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*** Opened channel log for #owl at 26/11/2007 16:55:40 [16:55] *** jjc (jjc@192.6.10.2) has joined #owl [16:55] *** bijan (bjp@130.88.198.12) has joined #owl [16:55] <bijan> zakim, who's here? [16:55] *** Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.30) has joined #owl [16:55] <bijan> zakim, who's here? [16:56] <Zakim> sorry, bijan, I don't know what conference this is [16:56] <Zakim> On IRC I see bijan, jjc, pfps, Carsten, IanH, sandro, ewallace, trackbot-ng [16:56] [jjc] Zakim, this is SW_OWL [16:56] <Zakim> ok, jjc; that matches SW_OWL()12:00PM [16:56] <bijan> zakim, who's here? [16:56] <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P2, ??P5 [16:56] <Zakim> On IRC I see bijan, jjc, pfps, Carsten, IanH, sandro, ewallace, trackbot-ng [16:56] * Zakim hears ??P5's hand up [16:56] * Zakim sees ??P5 on the speaker queue [16:56] [jjc] Zakim, ??P5 is me [16:56] <Zakim> +jjc; got it [16:56] <bijan> What command did you use? [16:56] <bijan> zakim, ??p2 is me [16:56] <Zakim> +bijan; got it [16:56] [jjc] 41# [16:56] * Zakim hears bijan's hand up [16:57] * Zakim sees ??P5, bijan on the speaker queue [16:57] [jjc] ack [16:57] [jjc] ack [16:57] <bijan> zakim, mute me [16:57] <Zakim> bijan should now be muted [16:57] [jjc] q? [16:57] * Zakim sees ??P5, bijan on the speaker queue [16:57] [jjc] q- [16:57] * Zakim sees ??P5, bijan on the speaker queue [16:57] [jjc] q- ??P5 [16:57] * Zakim sees bijan on the speaker queue [16:57] [jjc] q- bijan [16:57] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue [16:57] * bijan tries zakim obliterate queue [16:57] <bijan> I am muted :) [16:58] <bijan> They cut my vocal cords [16:58] <bijan> And burned the nerves that control my lips [16:58] *** jjc is now known as Jeremy [16:58] <bijan> Then sewed my lips together [16:58] [Jeremy] Zakim, jjc is Jeremy [16:58] <Zakim> +Jeremy; got it [16:59] <Zakim> +Vipul_Kashyap [17:00] * bijan 's fist remains mighty [17:00] <Zakim> +Evan_Wallace [17:00] <Zakim> +??P8 [17:00] <pfps> zakim, ??p8 is me [17:00] <Zakim> +pfps; got it [17:00] <pfps> zakim, mute me [17:00] <Zakim> pfps should now be muted [17:00] * pfps hi [17:00] *** Vipul (aadff7f8@207.250.49.24) has joined #owl [17:01] <Zakim> + +049351aaaa [17:01] <Carsten> zakim, aaaa is carsten [17:01] <Zakim> +carsten; got it [17:01] *** alanr (chatzilla@128.30.5.82) has joined #owl [17:01] <Carsten> zakim, mute me [17:01] <Zakim> carsten should now be muted [17:01] <Zakim> +[MIT-G346] [17:02] <alanr> zakim, [MIT-G346] is me [17:02] <Zakim> +alanr; got it [17:02] *** hendler (chatzilla@128.113.47.141) has joined #owl [17:02] <hendler> this looks like the right place - what is the zakim code for UFDTF? [17:02] [Jeremy] http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/UFDTF/Agenda [17:02] [Jeremy] OWLWG [17:02] [Jeremy] ie 69594 [17:02] [Jeremy] # [17:03] <ewallace> NIST folk are experiencing some tech difficulties calling in [17:03] * pfps not using standards? :-) [17:04] [Jeremy] Zakim, who's on the call? [17:04] <Zakim> On the phone I see bijan (muted), Jeremy, Vipul_Kashyap, Evan_Wallace, pfps (muted), carsten (muted), alanr [17:05] <Carsten> jeremy: any way to improve the sound quality of your phone? Very hard to understand! [17:05] <pfps> +1 previous minutes OK - meeting page should be edited to make the UFDTF entries look like the main entries [17:05] *** dlm (dlm@72.224.56.157) has joined #owl [17:05] <Carsten> yes!! [17:05] * pfps better souns [17:05] <Zakim> + +1.518.276.aabb [17:06] <hendler> zakim, aabb is jhendler [17:06] <Zakim> +jhendler; got it [17:06] <Carsten> +1 approve [17:06] [Jeremy] Minutes approved [17:06] [Jeremy] http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/UFDTF/Minutes/15Nov07 [17:06] <Zakim> + +1.518.608.aacc [17:06] <dlm> the last number is Deborah McGuinness [17:07] <Carsten> maybe we decide that at the end? [17:07] <Zakim> +Conrad [17:07] <alanr> I will not be available [17:07] [Jeremy] Zakim, aacc is Deborah [17:07] <Zakim> +Deborah; got it [17:07] <pfps> a meeting next week would probably be useful [17:08] [Jeremy] Evan regrets for next week, if we have a meeting [17:08] <alanr> Alan regrets for next week, if we have a meeting [17:08] [Jeremy] jjc: meetign next week may be useful, let's have one unless we choose not to [17:09] * hendler sent some mail on audiences to WG - was not in a form I felt comfortable wiki-ing, just went out today... [17:10] <alanr> http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Who_Reads_Our_Documents [17:10] <alanr> better to have ugly wiki, than ephemeral email [17:10] <hendler> q+ to answer JEremy's question [17:10] * Zakim sees hendler on the speaker queue [17:11] * bijan wonders if jeremy is ok in splitting RDF and XML hackers since I think they are very different [17:11] <bijan> Email: http://www.w3.org/mid/A80EEDE0-78C6-4B64-AE53-C5FECF636142@cs.rpi.edu [17:11] [Jeremy] jeremy: martin is not here, anyone want to take seat [17:11] <bijan> Where is this evidence? [17:11] [Jeremy] jim: we have good evidence that previous docs were used [17:11] [Jeremy] so we should be maintaining that [17:11] [Jeremy] deborah: +1 to jim [17:12] <alanr> current documents are the only ones that are there. So of course they are used. Can we do better? Probably yes. [17:12] *** IanH (horrocks@163.1.124.169) has quit IRC [Quit: IanH] [17:12] [Jeremy] vipul: we should be reasching agreemtn on users [17:12] <ewallace> It's helpful to understand what the audience is for those docs. [17:12] [Jeremy] jim: we've already done that [17:12] [Jeremy] (for OWL 1.0) [17:12] [Jeremy] jim: why does knowing more about the reader help [17:12] [Jeremy] vipul: different readers need different answers [17:13] [Jeremy] vipul: let's go to xquery web page [17:13] <alanr> Jim, knowing something about the reader is important, at least for those who weren't there the first time [17:13] [Jeremy] vipul: they have identified four readers [17:13] [Jeremy] (copied into "Who reads our documents") [17:13] [Jeremy] vipul: I see clearly different concern for different users [17:14] [Jeremy] vipul: gives examples from XQuery [17:15] <alanr> As a benchmark, I estimate it was a year before I understood OWL to my satisfaction. [17:15] <alanr> That's too long. [17:15] <alanr> http://www.w3.org/XML/Query/ [17:16] *** IanH (horrocks@163.1.124.169) has joined #owl [17:16] <bijan> Vipul doesn't speak for me on the successfulness evaluation [17:16] <Vipul> http://www.w3.org/XML/Query/ [17:16] [Jeremy] jim: I hear vipul arguing for one more document [17:16] <dlm> +queue [17:16] * Zakim sees hendler, dlm on the speaker queue [17:17] <hendler> q- [17:17] [Jeremy] alan: I think we need to think more clearly [17:17] * Zakim sees dlm on the speaker queue [17:17] [Jeremy] alan: several documents, some confusion about which one to read [17:17] <bijan> q+ [17:17] * Zakim sees dlm, bijan on the speaker queue [17:18] [Jeremy] alan: many people have tried to read the docs, and they don't get it - e,g, open world assumpltion lack of unique name assumption [17:18] [Jeremy] alan: typical usecases e.g. RDMS to OWL that document doesn't give you toehold [17:18] [Jeremy] alan: too little on inferrences [17:18] [Jeremy] alan: people say you should write a cook book [17:19] [Jeremy] (jim: Dean and I have been writing one) [17:19] [Jeremy] alan: documentation was good for purpose, but not end of story [17:19] [Jeremy] q+ vipul [17:19] * Zakim sees dlm, bijan, vipul on the speaker queue [17:20] * hendler wants to be clear - I was not arging against other new things, but suggesting maintenance of the existing documents [17:20] [Jeremy] dlm: I want some level of maintenance of docs that are alreasdy used [17:20] [Jeremy] hendler agreed [17:20] [Jeremy] dlm: e.g. overview briefness on each constructor was good and should be maintenance [17:21] <bijan> zakim, unmute me [17:21] <Zakim> bijan should no longer be muted [17:21] [Jeremy] alan: I think the good points should be maintained, not clear whether that means the current docs are the right form [17:21] [Jeremy] bijan: I am not so sure that these docs are not heavily used, my experience appears to be different from deb and jim [17:22] [Jeremy] bijan: some things seem to be misleading because of simplifications in OWL Reference [17:22] * hendler Google rank for overview, reference, guide = 8; SAS and use cases = 7 -- all pretty good [17:22] [Jeremy] bijan: everything we produce needs to bear in mind the difficulties of incorrect doc [17:23] [Jeremy] bijan: we have lots of things like Wikipedia, Web etc. I put emphasis on non-W3C docs [17:23] <bijan> zakim, mute me [17:23] <Zakim> bijan should now be muted [17:23] [Jeremy] vipul: we shouldn't worry about W3C doc or not for now [17:23] <Zakim> -alanr [17:24] <bijan> Uhm...we're a w3c working group! Isn't that what we're supposed to be focusing on? [17:24] * hendler agrees w/Bijan that implementor docs need to be clear, but I didn't think that was the OWL 1.1 issue - seems we have implementors (and maybe only implementors) covered [17:24] <Zakim> +[MIT-G346] [17:24] <alanr> zakim, [MIT-G346] is me [17:24] <Zakim> +alanr; got it [17:24] [Jeremy] scribe missed vipul's points [17:24] <bijan> Jim, it's not jsut for implementers...its' when a user comes to me and says "pellet is wrong...look at the reference" [17:24] [Jeremy] domain issues - we need to provide specific domains for different people [17:24] <hendler> so I agree the documents need to be as correct as we can make them. That doesn't argue to me to get rid of the reference [17:25] <hendler> see my point re "irreflexive" [17:25] <bijan> I'm just saying there is a cost [17:25] [Jeremy] comment from vipul [17:25] <bijan> So I prefer streamlined to lots of document [17:25] <Zakim> -carsten [17:25] <hendler> agree there is a cost, I think losing the documents has higher cost [17:25] <bijan> I.e., guide and reference overlap substantially [17:26] [Jeremy] jim: I think there are several different users, but current docs are already useful; let's do clarificarion clean-up etc and update for OWL 1.1 seems good [17:27] <bijan> Jim, do they have to be rec track for you?> [17:27] [Jeremy] jim: but writing new docs is more work [17:27] <bijan> Or could they be submissions? [17:27] [Jeremy] jjc: end of item for now - more at f2f [17:27] <bijan> er WG Notes [17:27] <alanr> http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Who_Reads_Our_Documents [17:27] <bijan> q+ [17:27] * Zakim sees dlm, bijan, vipul on the speaker queue [17:28] [Jeremy] continue 22 [17:28] <alanr> ack dlm [17:28] * Zakim sees bijan, vipul on the speaker queue [17:28] * bijan on [17:28] <alanr> ack vipul [17:28] * Zakim sees bijan on the speaker queue [17:28] <bijan> zakim, unmute me [17:28] <Zakim> bijan should no longer be muted [17:29] [Jeremy] other actions are done [17:29] <bijan> zakim, mute me [17:29] <Zakim> bijan should now be muted [17:29] [Jeremy] bijan will split RDF and XML hackers apart [17:29] [Jeremy] http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Who_Reads_Our_Documents [17:30] <alanr> Descriptions of examples of readers who would be reading our user facing documents. [17:31] * bijan notes that he's been working on a UFD: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/OWL_Numerics [17:31] * hendler notes -1 on "this theory" [17:32] * alanr surprised that "this theory" would be controversial... [17:32] <pfps> bijan's document seems to me to be much better "reference" material than the current reference [17:32] * alanr isn't it first: requiremens, second:design? [17:33] * bijan surprised that alanr would find that *anything* being controversial is surprising :) [17:33] [Jeremy] A brief discussion of "this theory" being that we start with descriptions of readers, and write docs for them to read. [17:33] <alanr> s/requiremens/requirements/ [17:33] <pfps> ... although not suitable to me as part of an overview [17:33] [Jeremy] There is dispute as to whether that is the right way to go. [17:33] * alanr ) [17:34] [Jeremy] Bijan's doc was he's been working on a UFD: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/OWL_Numerics [17:34] <Vipul> Can we state the dispute explicitly? [17:34] * bijan says something vitally important that reconciles everyone on [17:34] * bijan everything [17:34] * bijan notes the crowd goes WILD [17:35] * hendler disagrees with Bijan [17:35] * pfps bijan is not keeping up with his usual level of utility [17:35] [Jeremy] jim: I do a lot of writing, [17:35] * bijan that "Bijan" is different than "bijan" :) [17:35] [Jeremy] jim: WG docs have huge audience, spending too much time to profile the reader is not very profitable [17:36] <bijan> Jim's point seems to be an argument for minimality [17:36] [Jeremy] jjc paraphrases: any particular profile will be to specific and miss majpoirty of our audience [17:36] <ewallace> agree that we shouldn't spend too much time on IDing user types [17:36] <hendler> no bijan, it's a argument to try to find some general levels of knowledge and write to those [17:37] [Jeremy] jjc: two very specific profiles [17:37] [Jeremy] we could have OWL for X where X varies [17:37] <alanr> q+ [17:37] * Zakim sees bijan, alanr on the speaker queue [17:37] [Jeremy] vipul: pull on work from MIchael and Christine [17:37] <bijan> q- [17:37] * Zakim sees alanr on the speaker queue [17:38] [Jeremy] alan: I write specifics because stuff that is too general is scary [17:38] [Jeremy] alan: my example could be generalized across science [17:38] [Jeremy] alan: but we should have a busienss example [17:39] <dlm> +q [17:39] * Zakim sees alanr, dlm on the speaker queue [17:39] [Jeremy] alan: we need to be able to evaluate how well we are doing [17:40] [Jeremy] alan: let's get new blood on, which means the old people need to share better the valeus of the docs [17:40] <bijan> I'd love a justification of having the reference *and* the guide, for example. [17:40] <bijan> I could [17:40] <bijan> Or solicit one [17:40] [Jeremy] action: jeremy to write up business user [17:40] * trackbot-ng noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it. [17:40] <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-30 - Write up business user [on Jeremy Carroll - due 2007-12-03]. [17:41] <bijan> I am a student [17:41] [Jeremy] action: bijan to write up or solicit business user [17:41] * trackbot-ng noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it. [17:41] <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-31 - Write up or solicit business user [on Bijan Parsia - due 2007-12-03]. [17:41] <bijan> That's fine [17:41] [Jeremy] q- dlm [17:41] * Zakim sees alanr on the speaker queue [17:41] * hendler wonders if Bijan is a "typical" student :-) [17:41] [Jeremy] q- alanr [17:41] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue [17:41] *** cgi-irc (810620b3@128.30.52.23) has joined #owl [17:42] [Jeremy] dlm: should we modify old profiles or add new ones [17:42] * bijan *defines* typicality [17:42] [Jeremy] alan: ask on a case by case basis [17:43] <alanr> zakim, who is on the call [17:43] <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is on the call', alanr [17:43] <alanr> zakim, who is here? [17:43] <Zakim> On the phone I see bijan (muted), Jeremy, Vipul_Kashyap, Evan_Wallace, pfps (muted), jhendler, Deborah, Conrad, alanr [17:43] <Zakim> On IRC I see cgi-irc, IanH, dlm, hendler, alanr, Vipul, Zakim, bijan, Jeremy, pfps, Carsten, sandro, ewallace, trackbot-ng [17:43] [Jeremy] vipul: should we generalise the bioinformatics example? [17:43] [Jeremy] jjc: I think it would be helpful to note on that example [17:44] [Jeremy] alan: it is of course best when we have an identifiable person [17:45] <pfps> zakim, unmute me [17:45] <Zakim> pfps should no longer be muted [17:45] * bijan has a telecon customer [17:45] [Jeremy] jjc: evan please add appropriate action [17:45] <pfps> zakim, mute me [17:45] <Zakim> pfps should now be muted [17:46] <alanr> Conrad: Metamodelers [17:46] [Jeremy] conrad: one group of users do metamodelling [17:46] <bijan> BT uses owl [17:46] [Jeremy] extend OWL for process modelling, or business modelling or .... [17:46] [Jeremy] it is good to have something on metamodelling [17:47] [Jeremy] dlm will ping elisa to get input [17:47] <ewallace> action: evan to write up some mfg user classes [17:47] * trackbot-ng noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it. [17:47] <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-32 - Write up some mfg user classes [on Evan Wallace - due 2007-12-03]. [17:47] [Jeremy] action deborah to ask elisa for metamodeller [17:47] [Jeremy] action: deborah to ask elisa for metamodeller reader description [17:47] * trackbot-ng noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it. [17:47] <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-33 - Ask elisa for metamodeller reader description [on Deborah McGuinness - due 2007-12-03]. [17:47] <pfps> zakim, unmute me [17:47] <Zakim> pfps should no longer be muted [17:48] *** IanH (horrocks@163.1.124.169) has quit IRC [Quit: IanH] [17:48] * bijan imagines interview himself, "Would you say that your experience is paradigmatic or *absolutely* paradigmatic?" [17:48] [Jeremy] action: pfps to write up telecom user ... (maybe) [17:48] * trackbot-ng noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it. [17:48] <trackbot-ng> Sorry, couldn't find user - pfps [17:48] <pfps> zakim, mute me [17:48] <Zakim> pfps should now be muted [17:48] [Jeremy] action: peter to write up telecom user ... (maybe) [17:48] * trackbot-ng noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it. [17:48] <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-34 - Write up telecom user ... (maybe) [on Peter Patel-Schneider - due 2007-12-03]. [17:49] * hendler didn't know muzzling peter was an option :-) [17:49] * pfps it isn't but ignoring me has the same effect :-( [17:49] * alanr funniest wg meeting yet. Thanks, I needed that! [17:49] [Jeremy] vipul: actions 24 and 25, were done; but Christine replied about nature of collaboration [17:50] [Jeremy] how are we going to coordiante? etc.? etc.? [17:50] * alanr last time I tried to relax I say this movie: http://www.google.com/movies/reviews?cid=b8d1088d618f18ce&oi=moviesr&hl=en [17:50] * alanr didn't work :( [17:50] *** pfps (pfps@193.206.186.101) has quit IRC [Client exited] [17:50] <alanr> s/say/saw/ [17:50] <bijan> To my knowledge nothing has happened in the TF yet [17:50] [Jeremy] not heard whether they are happy to present. [17:50] *** pfps (pfps@193.206.186.101) has joined #owl [17:50] <hendler> q+ to ask about relationship to "Owled"? [17:50] * Zakim sees hendler on the speaker queue [17:51] <bijan> The task force web page was last updated Oct 11: http://code.google.com/p/owl1-1/wiki/UserRequirements [17:52] [Jeremy] UFDTF Clarify attribution issues for non-WG authors - jjc [17:52] [Jeremy] action 23 [17:52] <bijan> jim, Michel Dumontier and Christine Golbriech [17:52] <pfps> zakim, mute me [17:52] <Zakim> pfps was already muted, pfps [17:52] [Jeremy] jjc: has asked sandro, but no clarification yet [17:52] <hendler> ok, who are Michel Dumontier and Christine Golbriech? [17:53] <bijan> HCLS users [17:53] <bijan> Christine was a PC chair of OWLED2007 and is point person for the OWLED requriements task force [17:54] <bijan> Michel made the table: http://clarkparsia.com/weblog/2007/06/18/two-interesting-quotes/ [17:54] <hendler> thanks [17:54] <bijan> I worry about the ever expanding scope [17:54] <bijan> q+ [17:54] * Zakim sees hendler, bijan on the speaker queue [17:55] <hendler> q- [17:55] * Zakim sees bijan on the speaker queue [17:55] <hendler> +1 to Bijan re: ever expanding scope (strangelt enough) [17:55] [Jeremy] jjc: we could just provide pointers to their docs, but it would be better to acknowledge them fully [17:55] <bijan> :) [17:55] [Jeremy] particulary fi we have large quotes [17:56] *** hendler (chatzilla@128.113.47.141) has quit IRC [Client exited] [17:56] <bijan> There are an aribtrary number of people who *could* usefully contribute [17:56] <bijan> There are a number of tutorials, for example [17:56] *** hendler (chatzilla@128.113.47.141) has joined #owl [17:56] <pfps> carlton university, ottawa, ontario, canada [17:56] <bijan> Any number of blog posts, developer articles, etc. [17:57] [Jeremy] Micahel is likely to be at OWLED, and so could be invited to present to F2F2 [17:57] [Jeremy] or we could discuss stuff with him [17:58] <bijan> That confusion has continued [17:58] <bijan> I've had to correct several people [17:58] [Jeremy] jim: some people felt that OWLED had privileged position, and this is inappropriate [17:59] <bijan> Shouldn't those go to SWEO? [17:59] <bijan> SWEO already has some OWL use cases [18:00] * bijan calls the RPI president and leans! [18:01] <bijan> I thought jim was "at risk" not definitely not attending [18:02] <Zakim> -Evan_Wallace [18:02] <Zakim> -alanr [18:02] <Zakim> -Vipul_Kashyap [18:02] <Zakim> -Conrad [18:02] <Zakim> -Deborah [18:02] <Zakim> -bijan [18:02] <Zakim> -Jeremy [18:02] <Zakim> -jhendler [18:03] <Zakim> -pfps [18:03] * alanr still at risk. Didn't say he couldn't attend - just that there were issues [18:03] <Zakim> SW_OWL()12:00PM has ended [18:03] <Zakim> Attendees were bijan, Jeremy, Vipul_Kashyap, Evan_Wallace, pfps, +049351aaaa, carsten, alanr, +1.518.276.aabb, jhendler, +1.518.608.aacc, Conrad, Deborah [18:03] [Jeremy] jjc: I need to think about F2F, and arrange time with chairs for TF at F2F, and use next weeks meeting for last minute planning