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Chatlog 2009-01-14
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00:00:00 <scribenick> PRESENT: bmotik, Ivan, IanH, Zhe, Michael Schneider, Achille, baojie, Evan_Wallace, Bernardo Cuenca Grau, uli, Alan Ruttenberg, msmith, MarkusK, Joanne, Christine 00:00:00 <scribenick> REGRETS: Elisa Kendall 00:00:00 <scribenick> CHAIR: IanH 17:55:03 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #owl 17:55:03 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/01/14-owl-irc 17:55:12 <ewallace> ewallace has joined #owl 17:55:28 <IanH> IanH has changed the topic to: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Teleconference.2009.01.14/Agenda 17:55:41 <IanH> Zakim, this will be owlwg 17:55:41 <Zakim> ok, IanH; I see SW_OWL()1:00PM scheduled to start in 5 minutes 17:56:09 <IanH> ScribeNick: Achille Fokoue 17:56:25 <IanH> RRSAgent, make records public 17:58:05 <schneid> schneid has joined #owl 17:58:30 <bmotik> bmotik has joined #owl 17:59:04 <Zakim> SW_OWL()1:00PM has now started 17:59:11 <Zakim> + +0186528aaaa 17:59:12 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip 17:59:12 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made 17:59:13 <Zakim> +Ivan 17:59:15 <bmotik> Zakim, this will be OWL 17:59:15 <Zakim> ok, bmotik, I see SW_OWL()1:00PM already started 17:59:37 <MarkusK_> MarkusK_ has joined #owl 17:59:54 <bmotik> Zakim, aaaa is me 17:59:54 <Zakim> +bmotik; got it 18:00:08 <Zakim> +IanH 18:00:09 <bmotik> Zakim, mute me 18:00:09 <Zakim> bmotik should now be muted 18:00:28 <IanH> zakim, who is here? 18:00:28 <Zakim> On the phone I see bmotik (muted), Ivan, IanH 18:00:35 <Zakim> On IRC I see MarkusK_, bmotik, schneid, ewallace, RRSAgent, Zakim, IanH, ivan, sandro, trackbot 18:00:37 <Zhe> Zhe has joined #owl 18:01:15 <Zakim> + +1.603.897.aabb 18:01:17 <Achille> Achille has joined #owl 18:01:17 <Bernardo Cuenca Grau> Bernardo Cuenca Grau has joined #owl 18:01:22 <Zakim> +[IPcaller] 18:01:32 <Zhe> zakim, +1.603.897.aabb is me 18:01:32 <Zakim> +Zhe; got it 18:01:35 <IanH> zakim, who is here? 18:01:35 <Zakim> On the phone I see bmotik (muted), Ivan, IanH, Zhe, [IPcaller] 18:01:36 <Zakim> On IRC I see Bernardo Cuenca Grau, Achille, Zhe, MarkusK_, bmotik, schneid, ewallace, RRSAgent, Zakim, IanH, ivan, sandro, trackbot 18:01:37 <Zhe> zakim, mute me 18:01:37 <Zakim> Zhe should now be muted 18:01:51 <schneid> zakim, [IPcaller] is me 18:01:51 <Zakim> +schneid; got it 18:01:52 <Zakim> +[IBM] 18:02:05 <schneid> zakim, mute me 18:02:05 <Zakim> schneid should now be muted 18:02:07 <Zakim> + +1.518.276.aacc 18:02:08 <Achille> Zakim, IBM is me 18:02:08 <Zakim> +Achille; got it 18:02:14 <schneid> zakim, unmute me 18:02:14 <Zakim> schneid should no longer be muted 18:02:21 <Zakim> +Evan_Wallace 18:02:30 <IanH> ScribeNick: Achille 18:02:31 <Achille> ScribeNick: Achille 18:02:32 <baojie> baojie has joined #owl 18:02:44 <Zakim> +??P15 18:02:49 <uli> uli has joined #owl 18:02:50 <Zakim> +??P12 18:02:54 <Bernardo Cuenca Grau> Zakim, ??P12 is me 18:02:54 <Zakim> +Bernardo Cuenca Grau; got it 18:03:04 <Bernardo Cuenca Grau> Zakim, mute me 18:03:04 <Zakim> Bernardo Cuenca Grau should now be muted 18:03:11 <Zakim> +??P16 18:03:19 <uli> zakim, ??P16 is me 18:03:19 <Zakim> +uli; got it 18:03:24 <baojie> Zakim, who is on the phone 18:03:24 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is on the phone', baojie 18:03:37 <IanH> zakim, who is here? 18:03:37 <Zakim> On the phone I see bmotik (muted), Ivan, IanH, Zhe (muted), schneid, Achille, +1.518.276.aacc, Evan_Wallace, MarkusK_, Bernardo Cuenca Grau (muted), uli 18:03:39 <Zakim> On IRC I see uli, baojie, Bernardo Cuenca Grau, Achille, Zhe, MarkusK_, bmotik, schneid, ewallace, RRSAgent, Zakim, IanH, ivan, sandro, trackbot 18:03:42 <uli> zakim, mute me 18:03:42 <Zakim> uli should now be muted 18:03:45 <schneid> zakim, mute me 18:03:45 <Zakim> schneid should now be muted 18:03:49 <baojie> Zakim, aacc is baojie 18:03:49 <Zakim> +baojie; got it 18:03:51 <ivan> scribenick: Achille 18:03:51 <Zakim> +Jonathan_Rees 18:03:59 <ivan> scribe: Achille 18:04:34 <IanH> zakim, aacc is baojie 18:04:34 <Zakim> sorry, IanH, I do not recognize a party named 'aacc' 18:04:46 <msmith> msmith has joined #owl 18:04:53 <IanH> zakim, who is here? 18:04:53 <Zakim> On the phone I see bmotik (muted), Ivan, IanH, Zhe (muted), schneid (muted), Achille, baojie, Evan_Wallace, MarkusK_, Bernardo Cuenca Grau (muted), uli (muted), Jonathan_Rees 18:04:56 <Zakim> On IRC I see msmith, uli, baojie, Bernardo Cuenca Grau, Achille, Zhe, MarkusK_, bmotik, schneid, ewallace, RRSAgent, Zakim, IanH, ivan, sandro, trackbot 18:05:05 <alanr> alanr has joined #owl 18:05:23 <Achille> topic: Admin 18:05:23 <Achille> subtopic: Agenda amendments? 18:05:24 <alanr> zakim, who is here? 18:05:24 <Zakim> On the phone I see bmotik (muted), Ivan, IanH, Zhe (muted), schneid (muted), Achille, baojie, Evan_Wallace, MarkusK_, Bernardo Cuenca Grau (muted), uli (muted), Jonathan_Rees 18:05:27 <Zakim> On IRC I see alanr, msmith, uli, baojie, Bernardo Cuenca Grau, Achille, Zhe, MarkusK_, bmotik, schneid, ewallace, RRSAgent, Zakim, IanH, ivan, sandro, trackbot 18:05:32 <Zakim> +msmith 18:05:36 <Achille> ianh: no agenda amendments 18:05:41 <alanr> zakim, Jonathan_Rees is alanr 18:05:41 <Zakim> +alanr; got it 18:05:49 <Achille> subtopic: Accept Previous Minutes (07 January) 18:05:59 <alanr> zakim, mute me 18:05:59 <Zakim> alanr should now be muted 18:06:00 <Achille> ian: ok to me 18:06:22 <Achille> PROPOSED: Accept Previous Minutes (07 January) 18:06:38 <Achille> RESOLVED: Accept Previous Minutes (07 January) 18:06:53 <Achille> subtopic: Pending Review Actions 18:07:08 <Achille> subsubtopic: Action 250: Send mime-type registrations in to IETF when we do last-call publications / Sandro Hawke 18:07:27 <schneid> I remember some mail this week from IETF people? 18:07:34 <Achille> ian: the applications have been made, and it is ongoing process 18:07:59 <Achille> subsubtopic: Action 261: Implement change to syntax for datetime xml schema coordination / Peter Patel-Schneider 18:08:21 <Achille> ianh: Peter has done his part. We are waiting for xml schema wg response 18:08:44 <Achille> subtopic: Due and overdue Actions 18:08:44 <Achille> subsubtopic: Action 262: Send mail to Cecil replying that we are waiting for the real comment / Alan Ruttenberg 18:08:45 <alanr> tyes 18:08:46 <alanr> yes 18:08:52 <alanr> sorry - muted 18:09:09 <Achille> ianh: Action 262 done! 18:09:35 <Achille> subtopic: Soliciting reviews of and/or comments on LC documents 18:09:48 <Achille> ianh: we did not receive a lot of comments this should be a cause for concerns at this point 18:10:03 <Zhe> q+ 18:10:20 <IanH> q? 18:10:20 <uli> zakim, mute me 18:10:21 <Zakim> uli was already muted, uli 18:10:21 <Zhe> zakim, unmute me 18:10:21 <Zakim> Zhe should no longer be muted 18:10:29 <Achille> ivan: i agree with ian concerns 18:10:42 <Achille> zhe: Oracle is sending some comments in a few days. It is hard to get further comments given the size of the spec and the background needed to understand it. 18:11:40 <ivan> q+ 18:11:43 <ivan> ack Zhe 18:11:49 <Achille> ianh: important to get comments from companies and organizations outside the working group 18:11:54 <IanH> ack zhe 18:11:57 <IanH> ack ivan 18:12:03 <Zhe> zakim, mute me 18:12:03 <Zakim> Zhe should now be muted 18:12:22 <alanr> I will do so again on the lists that I sent to. 18:12:25 <Achille> ivan: An explicit call for comment from the chair might have some positive effect 18:12:45 <Achille> ianh: yes, we will repeat the call for comment that we did initially 18:12:45 <alanr> will do 18:12:56 <Achille> ivan: great. The call should be cosign with Alan 18:13:09 <Achille> ianh: personal solicitations are even better 18:13:52 <alanr> zakim, unmute me 18:13:52 <Zakim> alanr should no longer be muted 18:13:55 <Achille> ivan: people with influencial blogs might also help by posting on their blogs 18:14:02 <Achille> ivan: Example: Alan, can you post it on your blog? 18:14:20 <msmith> yes, it does 18:14:23 <Achille> ianh: yes anybody with a blog 18:14:33 <msmith> yes 18:14:34 <Achille> alanr: Example: Clark & Parsia's blog? 18:14:36 <msmith> will pas it on 18:14:45 <alanr> zakim, mute me 18:14:45 <Zakim> alanr should now be muted 18:15:01 <Achille> ianh: Alan and I will send a final reminder on the various mailing lists 18:15:12 <Achille> ianh: people should write to their blogs 18:15:23 <Achille> ianh: personal solicitations are also recommended 18:15:35 <Achille> ianh: other ideas? 18:15:50 <Achille> subtopic: F2F5 (23-24 February, 2009) 18:16:33 <Achille> ianh: only 6 participants confirmed and 4 remote participants confirmed 18:16:51 <Achille> topic: Last Call Comments 18:17:10 <Achille> ianh: let's discuss Alan Rector's comment 18:17:11 <alanr> but this time to the official list 18:17:17 <alanr> zakim, unmute me 18:17:17 <Zakim> alanr should no longer be muted 18:17:21 <Zakim> + +1.781.271.aadd 18:17:24 <uli> i didn't see 2... 18:17:25 <msmith> I agree, it seemed close to the same 18:17:30 <Achille> ianh: is the latest version of the comment different from the first one? 18:17:39 <Achille> alanr: No, it is roughly the same. It was just moved to the right page 18:17:40 <Zhe> I just updated the F2f5, I will join. 18:17:54 <alanr> great, Zhe! 18:18:19 <IanH> zakim, who is here? 18:18:19 <Zakim> On the phone I see bmotik (muted), Ivan, IanH, Zhe (muted), schneid (muted), Achille, baojie, Evan_Wallace, MarkusK_, Bernardo Cuenca Grau (muted), uli (muted), alanr, msmith, +1.781.271.aadd 18:18:22 <Zakim> On IRC I see alanr, msmith, uli, baojie, Bernardo Cuenca Grau, Achille, Zhe, MarkusK_, bmotik, schneid, ewallace, RRSAgent, Zakim, IanH, ivan, sandro, trackbot 18:19:14 <IanH> Who called in from USA area code 781? 18:19:24 <Achille> alanr: i have proposed a solution to the issue raised by Alan Rector at http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/LC_Responses/ALR1 18:19:31 <uli> what would the changes be? 18:19:35 <Achille> alanr: The proposed solution will require changes on our side 18:20:11 <ivan> q+ 18:20:18 <IanH> q? 18:21:09 <Achille> ivan: warning for ourselves: a major technical change will require a new Last Call (LC) 18:21:23 <uli> q+ 18:21:31 <IanH> ack ivan 18:21:42 <Achille> ianh: The change suggested by Alan will require a new LC 18:21:45 <uli> zakim, unmute me 18:21:45 <Zakim> uli should no longer be muted 18:21:45 <Achille> ivan: yes 18:21:45 <IanH> ack uli 18:22:03 <IanH> q? 18:22:12 <Achille> uli: what will be the required change? 18:22:24 <alanr> http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/LC_Responses/ALR1 18:22:30 <Achille> alanr: the proposed serialization is at http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/LC_Responses/ALR1 18:22:35 <Achille> alanr: the RDF mapping will have to change 18:22:43 <bmotik> q+ 18:23:20 <IanH> q? 18:23:27 <Joanne> Joanne has joined #owl 18:23:42 <Achille> uli: The parser will need to make sure that the strings are syntactically correct. 18:24:03 <IanH> q? 18:24:13 <Achille> uli: it sounds complicated 18:24:37 <Achille> alanr: the declarations for classes have no semantic impacts 18:25:03 <IanH> q? 18:25:26 <Achille> uli: the parser will have to make sure the class expressions are correct according to the syntax 18:25:59 <bmotik> Zakim, unmute me 18:25:59 <Zakim> bmotik should no longer be muted 18:26:08 <IanH> ack bmotik 18:26:18 <uli> zakim, mute me 18:26:18 <Zakim> uli should now be muted 18:28:01 <alanr> q+ 18:28:05 <IanH> q? 18:28:13 <Achille> bmotik: not a good idea to put all this kind of managarial information in annotation 18:28:47 <IanH> ack alanr 18:28:58 <Achille> bmotik: not important from an interoperability perspective 18:28:59 <bmotik> q+ 18:29:04 <uli> q+ 18:29:14 <uli> q- 18:29:28 <IanH> ack bmotik 18:29:30 <Achille> alanr: we cannot say to such a world-class expert in modeling that his view on modeling is wrong 18:29:39 <ivan> zakim, who is here? 18:29:39 <Zakim> On the phone I see bmotik, Ivan, IanH, Zhe (muted), schneid (muted), Achille, baojie, Evan_Wallace, MarkusK_, Bernardo Cuenca Grau (muted), uli (muted), alanr, msmith, +1.781.271.aadd 18:29:42 <uli> q+ 18:29:42 <Zakim> On IRC I see Joanne, alanr, msmith, uli, baojie, Bernardo Cuenca Grau, Achille, Zhe, MarkusK_, bmotik, schneid, ewallace, RRSAgent, Zakim, IanH, ivan, sandro, trackbot 18:29:45 <uli> q- 18:29:47 <Achille> bmotik: annotations are not about modeling 18:29:53 <IanH> q? 18:30:01 <Achille> bmotik: for modeling purposes, use owl-dl 18:30:21 <Achille> bmotik: the Alan Rector's list of requirements has nothing to do with modeling 18:30:28 <IanH> q? 18:30:42 <uli> ...but we can say even to world-leading expert that, given that the complications incurred by his workaround and (!) the fact that it will still be a work-around (and not a proper fix), this isn't worth it 18:30:52 <Achille> ianh: should we continue this discussion on email? 18:31:19 <alanr> uli: Agree. Need a coherent explanation of what the complications are to support such. 18:31:19 <bmotik> q+ 18:31:23 <IanH> q? 18:31:42 <IanH> ack bmotik 18:31:46 <Achille> ianh: people should look at Alan's proposal and we need to clarify the technical issues/difficulties 18:31:59 <msmith> q+ 18:32:05 <Achille> bmotik: those issues were already discussed at the last F2F 18:32:12 <alanr> q+ 18:32:19 <msmith> q- 18:32:23 <IanH> q? 18:32:40 <Achille> ianh: i agree, but could someone send an email about the issues 18:32:48 <IanH> q? 18:32:51 <IanH> ack alanr 18:32:59 <Achille> ianh: for example,a summary of the discussions at the F2F or a pointer to the minutes of the last F2F 18:33:15 <IanH> q? 18:33:44 <Achille> alanr: i would like a discussion about the alternative solutions 18:33:55 <alanr> zakim, mute me 18:33:55 <Zakim> alanr should now be muted 18:34:19 <Achille> ianh: how do we deal with internal LC comments? 18:34:42 <ivan> q+ 18:34:50 <IanH> ack ivan 18:34:51 <Achille> ianh should they be treated the exact same way as external comments? 18:35:42 <Achille> ivan: the wiki page should contain all the comments (internal or external) because it will be used to track the changes to the spec 18:36:03 <IanH> q? 18:36:10 <alanr> ok by me 18:36:19 <schneid> +1 18:37:06 <IanH> q? 18:37:30 <IanH> q? 18:38:26 <IanH> q? 18:39:00 <Achille> ianh: I will send an email clarifying how to make and deal with WG internal comments on LC documents 18:39:44 <IanH> q? 18:39:46 <msmith> q+ 18:39:46 <ivan> action to IanH: send a mail to the group clarifying the dealing with WG internal comments on LC documents 18:39:46 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - to 18:39:56 <IanH> ack msmith 18:39:58 <Achille> action: ianh to send an email to clarify how to make and deal with WG comments on LC documents 18:39:58 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - ianh 18:40:19 <IanH> q? 18:40:47 <IanH> q? 18:41:00 <Achille> subtopic: Comment from Tim Redmond 18:41:02 <alanr> zakim, unmute me 18:41:02 <Zakim> alanr should no longer be muted 18:41:07 <IanH> q? 18:41:30 <Achille> ianh: we can simply send a note about the discussion we already had on the import issues 18:42:10 <IanH> q? 18:42:16 <Achille> alanr: I will call him to help clarify his understanding 18:42:41 <Achille> ianh: i agree with Alan that he may not have fully understood the spec 18:42:49 <IanH> q? 18:42:53 <alanr> we agreed to disagree :) 18:42:53 <ivan> yes 18:43:49 <alanr> action: alanr to talk to tim redmond about his lc comment 18:43:49 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - alanr 18:43:59 <Achille> subtopic: Comment from Andy Seaborne 18:44:11 <baojie> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg//2009Jan/0025.html 18:44:13 <IanH> q? 18:44:19 <alanr> action: alanruttenberg to talk to tim redmond about his lc comment 18:44:19 <trackbot> Created ACTION-264 - Talk to tim redmond about his lc comment [on Alan Ruttenberg - due 2009-01-21]. 18:44:31 <ivan> -> http://www.w3.org/mid/b6b357670901140921j4be87090h76df1d20a00878d6@mail.gmail.com Baojie's answer 18:45:03 <IanH> q? 18:45:43 <Achille> baojie: my response is at http://www.w3.org/mid/b6b357670901140921j4be87090h76df1d20a00878d6@mail.gmail.com 18:45:46 <IanH> q? 18:45:51 <ivan> q+ 18:46:00 <IanH> ack ivan 18:46:48 <IanH> q? 18:46:57 <Achille> ivan: there is another comment from Andy about RDF wg taking over some datatypes 18:47:09 <IanH> q? 18:47:13 <schneid> I agree that only an RDF working group may make such a statement 18:47:27 <Achille> ivan: i agree with Andy that we should not have such a statement in our spec about RDF working group 18:47:49 <baojie> http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/InternationalizedStringSpec#Definition_of_the_rdf:text_Datatype 18:47:49 <ivan> The text in the rdf:text says: "In addition to the RIF and OWL specifications, this datatype is expected to supersede RDF's plain literals with language tags" 18:48:15 <Achille> ivan: this should not be part of our document 18:48:38 <IanH> q? 18:48:42 <Achille> ianh: should we discuss this issue further? 18:48:49 <Zakim> -MarkusK_ 18:49:02 <Achille> ivan: baojie, did you also have a discussion with the RIF group? 18:49:07 <baojie> not yet 18:49:20 <IanH> q? 18:49:33 <Achille> ianh: let's add that to our todo list on the topic of coordination with RIF group 18:49:46 <Achille> topic: Test Cases 18:49:56 <Achille> ianh: Problems with approved test cases? 18:49:59 <Achille> ianh: no 18:50:30 <Achille> ianh: tests are coming in fast. It is not clear how to run the approval process 18:50:34 <alanr> q+ 18:50:38 <alanr> zakim, unmute me 18:50:38 <Zakim> alanr was not muted, alanr 18:50:40 <IanH> q? 18:50:42 <Achille> ianh: have anyone looked at the tests? 18:50:43 <IanH> ack alanr 18:50:58 <Achille> alanr: we should split the labor to make sure that every test is looked at by at least one person 18:52:39 <msmith> q+ 18:52:41 <IanH> q? 18:52:46 <Achille> ianh: If all reasoners pass successfully a test, it should not require additional human validation 18:52:46 <IanH> ack msmith 18:53:20 <Achille> mike: if there is no table entry, it means that the test cannot be tested by a OWL-DL reasoner (OWL Full test) 18:53:45 <IanH> q? 18:54:03 <Achille> mike: there are also tests meant to illustrate the differences between DL and Full 18:54:16 <IanH> q? 18:54:19 <uli> q+ 18:54:21 <schneid> q+ 18:54:22 <uli> q- 18:54:28 <schneid> zakim, unmute me 18:54:28 <Zakim> schneid should no longer be muted 18:54:29 <IanH> ack schneid 18:54:36 <MarkusK_> MarkusK_ has joined #owl 18:55:03 <IanH> q? 18:55:39 <msmith> I don't know of tests that touch these cases 18:55:40 <Zakim> +[IPcaller] 18:55:44 <Achille> schneid: there are some corner cases that will cease to be valid OWL DL 18:58:36 <schneid> schneid: there might be old test cases about the reserved vocabulary: OWL 2 DL is now more restrictive, cancelling out almost /all/ names from the rdf, rdfs, owl and xsd namespaces, where in OWL 1 many names were actually not disallowed. But these are corner cases. 18:55:58 <IanH> q? 18:56:05 <schneid> zakim, mute me 18:56:05 <Zakim> schneid should now be muted 18:56:11 <bmotik> Zakim, mute me 18:56:11 <Zakim> bmotik should now be muted 18:56:12 <IanH> q? 18:56:28 <alanr> that's one way 18:57:03 <alanr> I'll take 5 18:57:06 <Achille> ianh: how to process tests validation by reasoners? 18:57:09 <IanH> q? 18:57:14 <ivan> ok 18:57:15 <Zhe> I will take 5 18:57:26 <msmith> I've already eye-balled them all, so can do it again, but that won't help. 18:57:45 <Achille> no objection from me 18:58:02 <uli> ...why doesn't eye-balling help 18:58:04 <ivan> zakim, who is here? 18:58:04 <Zakim> On the phone I see bmotik (muted), Ivan, IanH, Zhe (muted), schneid (muted), Achille, baojie, Evan_Wallace, Bernardo Cuenca Grau (muted), uli (muted), alanr, msmith, +1.781.271.aadd, MarkusK_ 18:58:05 <uli> ? 18:58:08 <Zakim> On IRC I see MarkusK_, Joanne, alanr, msmith, uli, baojie, Bernardo Cuenca Grau, Achille, Zhe, bmotik, schneid, ewallace, RRSAgent, Zakim, IanH, ivan, sandro, trackbot 18:58:10 <Achille> ianh: does anybody object to receiving 5 testcases to evaluate? 18:58:11 <MarkusK_> I missed the discussion -- I also will check some further tests 18:58:11 <ivan> zakim, aadd is Joanne 18:58:11 <Zakim> +Joanne; got it 18:58:20 <IanH> q? 18:58:23 <uli> zakim, unmute me 18:58:23 <Zakim> uli should no longer be muted 18:58:23 <Zhe> please let me know which 5 though :) 18:58:42 <Christine> Christine has joined #owl 18:58:55 <msmith> yes. 18:59:02 <msmith> you can check my sanity :) 18:59:17 <Achille> ianh: i am not convince that it will help 18:59:39 <IanH> q? 18:59:43 <msmith> q+ 18:59:56 <Achille> alanr: it will help make sure that they are not OWL DL 19:00:07 <IanH> q? 19:00:16 <IanH> ack msmith 19:00:23 <Achille> ianh: if all three reasoners say there are not OWL DL that should be good enough, right? 19:00:48 <Zakim> +??P24 19:01:12 <Christine> Zakim, ??P24 is Christine 19:01:12 <Zakim> +Christine; got it 19:01:28 <IanH> q? 19:01:35 <Achille> mike: the entries in the table are the ones that are now OWL DL. 19:02:02 <IanH> q? 19:02:06 <Achille> mike: the only one handle to the reasoner were the OWL DL examples 19:03:08 <msmith> will do shortly 19:03:52 <uli> http://owl.cs.manchester.ac.uk/converter/ 19:03:54 <ivan> i do not have a practice in m'ter syntax, sorry 19:04:16 <msmith> q+ 19:04:22 <IanH> q? 19:04:27 <IanH> ack msmith 19:04:43 <msmith> +5, this would be nice 19:04:58 <msmith> @alan regarding declarations http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Syntax#Entity_Declarations_and_Typing 19:05:08 <uli> zakim, mute me 19:05:08 <Zakim> uli should now be muted 19:05:32 <Achille> ianh: we can use the converter as a species checker provided that the repair functionality is disable 19:05:51 <Achille> topic: Plans for non-LC documents 19:05:55 <IanH> q? 19:06:53 <Achille> ianh: last week strawpoll on ManchesterSyntax to become Rec Track was not conclusive 19:07:16 <Achille> ianh: has anyone changed his/her mind since then? 19:07:26 <ivan> q+ 19:07:30 <Zhe> q+ 19:07:55 <Achille> ianh: would anybody raise a formal objection if ManchesterSyntax were to become a Rec Track? 19:08:09 <Christine> +q 19:08:10 <Zhe> zakim, unmute me 19:08:10 <Zakim> Zhe should no longer be muted 19:08:11 <IanH> ack ivan 19:08:48 <Achille> ivan: I do not think it is part of our scope 19:08:52 <IanH> q? 19:09:05 <Achille> ivan: it was not part of the charter, and we are taking too much here 19:09:11 <IanH> ack zhe 19:09:36 <uli> no, I don't think so 19:09:39 <Achille> Zhe: what are the consequences if it becomes rec track? will vendors be required to support it? 19:10:03 <Achille> ianh: no. 19:10:29 <Achille> ianh: it will be optional 19:10:52 <uli> q+ 19:10:57 <IanH> q? 19:11:32 <Achille> ivan: but it will mean that it is a syntax taken seriously by the group 19:12:15 <IanH> q? 19:12:19 <IanH> ack christine 19:13:16 <Achille> christine: it will become first class syntax if it becomes rec track 19:13:20 <IanH> q? 19:14:14 <uli> zakim, unmute me 19:14:14 <Zakim> uli should no longer be muted 19:14:14 <IanH> ack uli 19:14:27 <Achille> christine: what are the arguments in favor of it being rec track? 19:15:08 <Achille> uli: better visibility, interoperability between tools, and shared human readable syntax 19:16:14 <ivan> q+ 19:16:29 <ivan> q- 19:16:46 <uli> zakim, mute me 19:16:46 <Zakim> uli should now be muted 19:17:07 <IanH> q? 19:17:08 <Achille> ianh: how about ManchesterSyntax being a Note? 19:17:55 <Achille> ianh: seems nobody will vote against it 19:18:09 <uli> not extremely unhappy, but I would think that this was "treating the MS designers no too nicely" (note, I am not one of them) 19:18:11 <Achille> PROPOSED : ManchesterSyntax will be a Note 19:18:26 <schneid> what about the editor? 19:18:29 <uli> ...but I will shut up now 19:18:50 <schneid> q+ 19:18:54 <schneid> zakim, unmute me 19:18:54 <Zakim> schneid should no longer be muted 19:18:58 <IanH> ack schneid 19:19:28 <Achille> schneid: peter would be in favor of a recommendation 19:19:36 <Christine> +q 19:20:00 <schneid> zakim, mute me 19:20:00 <Zakim> schneid should now be muted 19:20:33 <Achille> ianh: we can vote now and revisit the vote in light of completely new arguments 19:20:52 <IanH> q? 19:21:19 <Achille> ivan: my impression was that peter was just lukewarmly in favor of it being Rec track 19:21:47 <Achille> christine: it would not be wlecome to delay the vote again and again. It has been on the Agenda several times before (on TC (2008.12.17), on TC (2009.01.07) and has already been postponed because one (or another) author was not there (indeed, Peter had the opportunity to support MS as a Rec if he wanted so since he was there on the previous TC 2008.12.17 and 2009.01.07, but he did not argue for it, e.g. before the straw-poll; on 2009.01.07 Bijan was not there again but Uli was there as a Manchester representative. 19:21:59 <Achille> PROPOSED : ManchesterSyntax will be a Note 19:21:59 <IanH> ROPOSED : ManchesterSyntax will be a Note 19:22:11 <ivan> +1 19:22:12 <ewallace> +1 19:22:12 <baojie> +1 19:22:14 <uli> -0 19:22:14 <Achille> +0.5 19:22:14 <MarkusK_> +0 19:22:15 <Zhe> +1 (ORACLE) 19:22:16 <msmith> 0 19:22:16 <Bernardo Cuenca Grau> 0 19:22:18 <schneid> +1 19:22:18 <bmotik> -0 19:22:18 <Christine> +1 19:22:29 <IanH> 0 19:22:50 <Achille> RESOLVED: ManchesterSyntax will be a Note 19:23:13 <Zakim> -uli 19:23:21 <Achille> topic: Coordination with RIF 19:23:51 <Achille> ianh: jie agrees to take the job wrt to rdf:text 19:24:03 <Achille> ianh: what do we need for this coordination? 19:24:12 <IanH> q? 19:24:28 <IanH> ack christine 19:24:41 <Achille> baojie: what are the other issues on the list wrt to the coordination? 19:25:01 <Christine> -q 19:25:02 <Achille> ianh: some issues regarding datatypes 19:25:08 <IanH> q? 19:25:52 <Achille> ivan: one of the issues is the difference between how owl and xml schema handle datatype value spaces 19:26:04 <baojie> is there a pointer to previous discussions? thanks 19:27:03 <Achille> ivan: we do not want different view of datatypes by owl wg and rif wg 19:27:14 <Achille> ianh: no need to discuss it in detail now 19:29:29 <Achille> topic: Additional other business 19:30:07 <Zakim> -Evan_Wallace 19:30:12 <msmith> thanks everyone, bye 19:30:13 <Zakim> -bmotik 19:30:15 <Zakim> -msmith 19:30:19 <Zhe> bye 19:30:19 <Zakim> -Achille 19:30:25 <Zakim> -MarkusK_ 19:30:28 <Zakim> -Zhe 19:30:35 <Zakim> -Christine 19:30:41 <Zakim> -Joanne 19:30:48 <Zakim> -baojie 19:30:55 <baojie> baojie has left #owl 19:31:03 <Zakim> -schneid 19:32:01 <Zakim> -Bernardo Cuenca Grau 19:32:35 <alanr> have to go to another call 19:32:44 <Zakim> -alanr 19:34:28 <alanr> alanr has joined #owl