Chatlog 2008-11-26

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00:00:00 <scribenick> PRESENT: Jie Bao, Achille Fokoue, Christine Golbreich, Bernardo Cuenca Grau, Sandro Hawke, Ivan Herman, Rinke Hoekstra, Ian Horrocks, Markus Krötzsch, Boris Motik, Jeff Pan, Peter Patel-Schneider, Alan Ruttenberg, Uli Sattler, Michael Schneider, Evan Wallace
00:00:00 <scribenick> REGRETS: Elisa Kendall, Mike Smith
00:00:00 <scribenick> CHAIR: Ian Horrocks
17:41:43 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #owl
17:41:43 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/11/26-owl-irc
17:41:50 <bmotik> rrsagent, make log public
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17:56:39 <ivan> ivan has joined #owl
17:57:33 <Zakim> SW_OWL()1:00PM has now started
17:57:40 <Zakim> +??P0
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17:57:50 <IanH> zakim, ??P0 is IanH
17:57:50 <Zakim> +IanH; got it
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17:58:46 <Zakim> +??P5
17:58:47 <IanH> RRSAgent, make records public
17:58:52 <Zakim> +??P6
17:58:52 <bcuencagrau> Zakim, ??P15 is me
17:58:53 <Zakim> I already had ??P15 as sylvaing, bcuencagrau
17:59:06 <bcuencagrau> Zakim, ??P6 is me
17:59:06 <Zakim> +bcuencagrau; got it
17:59:13 <Zakim> -bcuencagrau
17:59:20 <Zakim> +Peter_Patel-Schneider
17:59:28 <IanH> IanH has changed the topic to: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Teleconference.2008.11.26/Agenda
17:59:36 <Zakim> +??P6
17:59:37 <bcuencagrau> Zakim, mute me
17:59:38 <Zakim> sorry, bcuencagrau, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
17:59:41 <bmotik> Zakim, ??p6 is me
17:59:41 <Zakim> +bmotik; got it
17:59:44 <bmotik> Zakim, mute me
17:59:44 <Zakim> bmotik should now be muted
17:59:48 <Zakim> +??P7
17:59:50 <IanH> zakim, who is here?
17:59:50 <Zakim> On the phone I see IanH, ??P5, Peter_Patel-Schneider, bmotik (muted), ??P7
17:59:50 <Zakim> On IRC I see bcuencagrau, schneid, ivan, Rinke, RRSAgent, Zakim, bmotik, IanH, pfps, sandro, trackbot
17:59:58 <Zakim> -??P5
18:00:00 <schneid> zakim, ??P7 is me
18:00:00 <Zakim> +schneid; got it
18:00:03 <Zakim> +Rinke
18:00:04 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
18:00:05 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
18:00:07 <Zakim> +Ivan
18:00:07 <schneid> scribe is here!
18:00:18 <ivan> zakim, mute me
18:00:18 <Zakim> Ivan should now be muted
18:00:30 <Zakim> +??P5
18:00:34 <bcuencagrau> Zakim, ??P5 is me
18:00:34 <Zakim> +bcuencagrau; got it
18:00:38 <bcuencagrau> Zakim, mute me
18:00:38 <Zakim> bcuencagrau should now be muted
18:00:39 <IanH> ScribeNick: schneid
18:00:49 <baojie> baojie has joined #owl
18:01:00 <Zakim> +Sandro
18:01:10 <MarkusK_> MarkusK_ has joined #owl
18:01:23 <uli> uli has joined #owl
18:01:23 <IanH> zakim, who is here?
18:01:23 <Zakim> On the phone I see IanH, Peter_Patel-Schneider, bmotik (muted), schneid, Rinke, Ivan (muted), bcuencagrau (muted), Sandro
18:01:25 <Zakim> On IRC I see uli, MarkusK_, baojie, bcuencagrau, schneid, ivan, Rinke, RRSAgent, Zakim, bmotik, IanH, pfps, sandro, trackbot
18:01:40 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
18:01:58 <Zakim> +??P12
18:02:02 <schneid> Topic: Admin
18:02:06 <uli> zakim, ??P12 is me
18:02:06 <Zakim> +uli; got it
18:02:08 <IanH> zakim, who is here?
18:02:08 <Zakim> On the phone I see IanH, Peter_Patel-Schneider, bmotik (muted), schneid, Rinke, Ivan (muted), bcuencagrau (muted), Sandro, MarkusK_, uli
18:02:10 <Zakim> On IRC I see uli, MarkusK_, baojie, bcuencagrau, schneid, ivan, Rinke, RRSAgent, Zakim, bmotik, IanH, pfps, sandro, trackbot
18:02:12 <uli> zakim, mute me
18:02:12 <Zakim> uli should now be muted
18:02:12 <schneid> Subtopic: Role Call
18:02:22 <schneid> Subtopic: Agenda Amendments
18:02:25 <christine> christine has joined #owl
18:02:36 <Achille> Achille has joined #owl
18:02:41 <schneid> IanH: I added additional points to the agenda recently
18:02:44 <Zakim> + +1.978.805.aaaa
18:02:49 <alanr> alanr has joined #owl
18:02:54 <baojie> Zakim, aaaa is baojie
18:02:54 <Zakim> +baojie; got it
18:02:55 <Zakim> +[IBM]
18:02:56 <schneid> Subtopic: Accept Previous Minutes
18:02:56 <uli> look fine to me
18:03:03 <JeffP> JeffP has joined #owl
18:03:05 <pfps> they look OK to me
18:03:07 <Achille> Zakim, IBM is me
18:03:07 <Zakim> +Achille; got it
18:03:16 <Zakim> +??P18
18:03:18 <Rinke> look ok to me as well
18:03:19 <schneid> IanH: Peter finds them ok
18:03:28 <schneid> IanH: i also find them pretty ok
18:03:50 <Zakim> +Jonathan_Rees
18:04:07 <alanr> zakim, Jonathan_Rees is me
18:04:07 <Zakim> +alanr; got it
18:04:11 <pfps> RESOLVED: Accept Previous Minutes (19 November)
18:04:20 <schneid> Subtopic: Actions 
18:04:28 <schneid> Subsubtopic: Action 251: rdf:XMLLiteral (Boris Motik)
18:04:38 <schneid> IanH: Action about rdf:XMLLiteral was on Boris, any complaints?
18:04:39 <IanH> q?
18:04:45 <Zakim> +StuartTaylor
18:04:56 <alanr> zakim, mute me
18:04:56 <Zakim> alanr should now be muted
18:04:57 <JeffP> zakim, StuartTaylor is me
18:04:58 <Zakim> +JeffP; got it
18:05:09 <schneid> Subsubtopic: Action 250: MIME Type Registration (Sandro Hawke)
18:05:13 <schneid> Sandro: ok
18:05:22 <IanH> q?
18:05:23 <schneid> Subsubtopic: Action 249: SOTD text on Round 4 (Ian Horrocks) 
18:05:33 <schneid> IanH: I have made it
18:05:50 <IanH> q?
18:05:55 <schneid> Subsubtopic: Action 248: Consult with Editors (Ian Horrocks) 
18:06:04 <schneid> IanH: any comments on Action 248?
18:06:17 <schneid> Topic: Reviewing and Publishing
18:06:34 <schneid> IanH: This is the last telecom before publication of LC documents
18:06:46 <schneid> IanH: Thanks to editors 
18:06:49 <IanH> q?
18:06:58 <schneid> IanH: thinks that the documents are in good shape
18:07:16 <IanH> q?
18:07:24 <schneid> IanH: related actions also seem to be done, except for those we are going to talk about today
18:07:30 <schneid> Subtopic: Document Status Check
18:07:36 <schneid> IanH: Let's go through the list of documents, and ask editors
18:07:38 <IanH> q?
18:08:06 <IanH> q?
18:08:17 <schneid> Sandro: there are still some typographical and other problems
18:08:27 <schneid> q+
18:08:32 <IanH> q?
18:08:37 <IanH> ack schneid
18:09:25 <IanH> q?
18:09:42 <schneid> schneid: I will be finished with my editorial work/checks of the Full document tomorrow evening
18:09:53 <schneid> IanH: please send then a mail to let Sandro know
18:10:00 <IanH> q?
18:10:10 <schneid> Subtopic: rdf:text
18:10:19 <schneid> IanH: there was some issue with rdf:text
18:10:24 <IanH> q?
18:10:35 <schneid> Subtopic: Primer
18:10:44 <schneid> IanH: we discussed last week about the Primer
18:11:31 <IanH> q?
18:11:43 <sandro> Sandro: let's mention what's going on with Primer in the the SOTD of QuickRef
18:12:08 <schneid> Sandro: I can go and work on it
18:12:13 <sandro> ACTION: ian mention what's going on with Primer in the the SOTD of QuickRef
18:12:13 <trackbot> Created ACTION-253 - Mention what's going on with Primer in the the SOTD of QuickRef [on Ian Horrocks - due 2008-12-03].
18:12:50 <schneid> Subtopic: Grammar appendices 
18:12:56 <ewallace> ewallace has joined #owl
18:13:06 <IanH> q?
18:13:27 <schneid> IanH: believes that boris will fill appendix when everything else will be fine
18:13:32 <IanH> q?
18:13:38 <Zakim> +Evan_Wallace
18:14:02 <schneid> IanH: can we go to LC with EdNotes there?
18:14:11 <schneid> Sandro: No problem, will be no change in design
18:14:12 <IanH> q?
18:14:18 <bmotik> q+
18:14:21 <IanH> q?
18:14:25 <bmotik> Zakim, unmute me
18:14:25 <Zakim> bmotik should no longer be muted
18:14:33 <IanH> ack bmotik
18:14:38 <schneid> IanH: it's just pasting text from the document to the appendix
18:14:56 <schneid> bmotik: I can do this tomorrow for Profiles
18:15:06 <IanH> q?
18:15:40 <bmotik> ACTION: bmotik2 to Create missing grammars in the documents
18:15:40 <trackbot> Created ACTION-254 - Create missing grammars in the documents [on Boris Motik - due 2008-12-03].
18:15:44 <bmotik> Zakim, mute me
18:15:44 <Zakim> bmotik should now be muted
18:15:45 <schneid> IanH: otherwise people will have a hard time to work with this document
18:15:50 <alanr> zakim, unmute me
18:15:50 <Zakim> alanr should no longer be muted
18:15:59 <IanH> q?
18:16:09 <alanr> q+
18:16:12 <bmotik> Let's remove this section
18:16:12 <IanH> q?
18:16:14 <schneid> Subtopic: Differences from OWL 1
18:16:16 <IanH> ack alanr
18:16:34 <IanH> q?
18:16:36 <bmotik> +1
18:16:40 <IanH> q?
18:16:41 <schneid> alanr: a good thing to have such a section there
18:16:47 <IanH> ack bmotik
18:16:48 <schneid> q+
18:16:49 <bmotik> Zakim, unmute me
18:16:53 <Zakim> bmotik was not muted, bmotik
18:17:04 <alanr> zakim, mute me
18:17:04 <Zakim> alanr should now be muted
18:17:07 <IanH> ack schneid
18:17:12 <IanH> q?
18:17:44 <IanH> q?
18:17:55 <alanr> +1 to putting it in new features as well
18:18:14 <alanr> perhaps leave an editors note there
18:18:19 <IanH> q?
18:18:34 <bmotik> can I remove this section?
18:18:35 <bmotik> q+
18:18:36 <schneid> schneid: have started to create an item list on changes to OWL 1 Full, but will finish it not before LC
18:18:41 <IanH> q?
18:18:53 <schneid> IanH: what about putting it in special document
18:19:17 <IanH> q?
18:19:19 <schneid> schneid: will go on with Full document for the moment, and then move it, if we decide to put it there
18:19:21 <bmotik> q-
18:19:21 <IanH> ack bmotik
18:20:47 <schneid> IanH: (explains to christine) we have currently a section in the Syntax document on changes between OWL 1 and 2, but discuss to move this section to the separate document
18:20:55 <IanH> q?
18:21:03 <schneid> Subtopic: Relative URIs
18:21:06 <alanr> zakim, unmute me
18:21:06 <Zakim> alanr should no longer be muted
18:21:07 <IanH> q?
18:21:08 <alanr> q+
18:21:14 <IanH> ack alanr
18:21:30 <schneid> IanH: believes to understand the state of discussion was that nothing needs to be done
18:21:31 <IanH> q?
18:21:45 <bmotik> q+
18:21:51 <sandro> (referred section of Syntax, from above is: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Syntax#Appendix:_Differences_from_OWL_1_Abstract_Syntax_.28Nonnormative.29 )
18:22:47 <schneid> bmotik: realized after email discussion
18:23:19 <IanH> q?
18:23:21 <alanr> q+
18:23:26 <schneid> ... if shifting documents around, the relative URI will get resolved with something else
18:23:27 <IanH> ack bmotik
18:23:30 <IanH> ack alanr
18:24:08 <bmotik> q+
18:24:14 <IanH> alanr: previously said that he only wanted to make sure that use of relative URIs is not outlawed.
18:24:17 <IanH> q?
18:24:33 <IanH> ack bmotik
18:24:36 <schneid> alanr: we don't want to prohibit tools from doing it
18:25:03 <IanH> q?
18:25:09 <schneid> bmotik: several syntaxes have a base (RDF syntax, Functional syntax)
18:25:15 <IanH> q?
18:25:39 <IanH> q?
18:26:24 <IanH> q?
18:26:42 <IanH> q?
18:26:51 <schneid> bmotik: not mentioned anywhere, it's up to the tools
18:26:59 <IanH> q?
18:27:14 <alanr> nothing prohibits a tool from reserializating a relative URI found in a document as a relative URI, despite the fact that the structure only has full URIs. 
18:27:15 <schneid> Subtopic: RIF coordination
18:27:18 <IanH> q?
18:27:23 <JeffP> q+
18:27:50 <schneid> IanH: issues were about datatypes and OWL RL
18:27:54 <IanH> q?
18:27:57 <uli> q+
18:28:01 <IanH> ack JeffP
18:28:04 <alanr> q+
18:28:21 <schneid> JeffP: RIF document talks about DLP, not OWL RL
18:28:27 <uli> zakim, unmute me
18:28:27 <Zakim> uli should no longer be muted
18:28:29 <IanH> ack uli
18:28:52 <schneid> uli: has sent a review to RIF WG on RIF / OWL compatibility
18:29:09 <IanH> q?
18:29:20 <schneid> ... main point was that it would make things easier when replacing DLP by OWL RL
18:29:43 <IanH> q?
18:29:46 <IanH> ack alanr
18:29:55 <uli> zakim, unmute me
18:29:55 <Zakim> uli was not muted, uli
18:29:59 <uli> zakim, mute me
18:29:59 <Zakim> uli should now be muted
18:30:23 <schneid> IanH: understood mail from Uli that RIF should be brought up to date to current OWL development 
18:31:09 <IanH> q?
18:31:25 <schneid> alanr: we could add At-Risk note in Profiles that we are coordinating with RIF
18:31:39 <ivan> q+
18:31:39 <IanH> q?
18:31:41 <schneid> q+
18:31:49 <ivan> zakim, unmute me
18:31:49 <Zakim> Ivan should no longer be muted
18:32:04 <schneid> sandro: have doubts about this
18:32:07 <bmotik> q+
18:32:29 <schneid> q-
18:32:34 <IanH> q?
18:33:08 <IanH> q?
18:33:12 <schneid> alanr: should we consider for something like "the RL rules should be represented in RIF style"?
18:33:21 <schneid> sandro: we should do
18:33:39 <schneid> sandro: changing to RIF wouldn't change anything in essence
18:34:05 <IanH> q?
18:34:15 <IanH> ack ivan
18:34:34 <schneid> ivan: "at-risk" idea looks strange to him
18:34:39 <IanH> q?
18:35:23 <schneid> ivan: no reason for us to say "at risk" because RIF has chance to simply comment on LC
18:35:34 <uli_> uli_ has joined #owl
18:35:52 <uli_> uli_ has joined #owl
18:36:14 <pfps> +1 to Ivan's proposal
18:36:23 <pfps> ... (so far)
18:36:23 <IanH> q?
18:36:29 <schneid> ivan: it's not necessary to have RIF representation in the profiles spec, we can have a Note coordinated with the RIF WG, which represents the RL rules in RIF style
18:37:10 <IanH> q?
18:37:14 <sandro> q+ to suggest at-risking all DT's not in RIF
18:37:17 <schneid> ivan: we should not delay our process for this topic
18:37:57 <alanr> q+
18:38:06 <schneid> bmotik: if this is a risky topic, then we should have a telco with the RIF people, and ask what the differences are to current style for rules
18:38:06 <IanH> ack bmotik
18:38:27 <IanH> ack sandro
18:38:27 <Zakim> sandro, you wanted to suggest at-risking all DT's not in RIF
18:38:32 <schneid> sandro: supports idea by bmotik
18:38:55 <IanH> q?
18:39:09 <IanH> q?
18:39:25 <IanH> q?
18:39:27 <bmotik> q+
18:39:51 <IanH> q?
18:39:57 <IanH> ack alanr
18:40:02 <ivan> zakim, mute me
18:40:02 <Zakim> Ivan should now be muted
18:40:09 <IanH> q?
18:40:41 <ivan> +1 to an editorial note
18:40:48 <IanH> q?
18:41:01 <sandro> +1 editorial note that a RIF serialization will come along.
18:41:02 <schneid> alanr: supports having editorial note in the Profiles document on talking about coordination with RIF WG
18:41:13 <IanH> q?
18:41:14 <ivan> q+
18:41:14 <schneid> ... in order to give people a chance to comment on this
18:41:21 <IanH> ack bmotik
18:41:25 <ivan> zakim, unmute me
18:41:25 <Zakim> Ivan should no longer be muted
18:41:38 <JeffP> yes
18:41:52 <IanH> q?
18:41:54 <schneid> bmotik: datatype issue, RIF does not have all these string based datatypes that are in OWL 2 
18:42:16 <IanH> q?
18:42:24 <schneid> ... don't believe that set of datatypes have to be the same between RIF and in Profiles
18:42:32 <JeffP> q+
18:42:38 <schneid> ... because RIF has an extension clause, just as OWL has one
18:42:46 <schneid> ... for adding datatypes
18:42:50 <sandro> q+ to complain about "just have to extend...", schedule telecon
18:42:56 <IanH> q?
18:43:09 <IanH> q?
18:43:18 <JeffP> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/OWLRL
18:43:31 <IanH> q?
18:43:35 <IanH> ack ivan
18:43:59 <schneid> ivan: there are datatypes in OWL RL (owl:real and owl:rational) which are in the problematic area
18:44:03 <IanH> q?
18:44:12 <bmotik> q+
18:44:13 <sandro> q-
18:44:31 <schneid> ... don't understand why certain datatypes are in OWL RL and others not
18:44:46 <IanH> q?
18:44:53 <sandro> okay to 'datatypes in OWL RL'
18:45:00 <schneid> IanH: we should only talk about datatypes in OWL RL, not in complete OWL
18:45:26 <sandro> PROPOSED: Consider the list of datatypes for OWL-RL to be AT RISK for Last Call.
18:45:32 <IanH> ack JeffP
18:46:14 <schneid> JeffP: RIF WG has tried to represent OWL RL in RIF
18:46:30 <IanH> q?
18:46:36 <schneid> IanH: did they have difficulties?
18:46:45 <IanH> ack bmotik
18:46:47 <schneid> JeffP: only problem seems to be datatype mismatch
18:47:30 <IanH> q?
18:47:37 <schneid> bmotik: explains criterion for set of datatypes in RL 
18:48:14 <sandro> PROPOSED: Consider the list of datatypes for OWL-RL to be AT RISK for Last Call, saying the list of required datatypes for OWL-RL may be reduced based on feedback about what's available in rules engines.
18:48:18 <IanH> q?
18:48:54 <alanr> q?
18:49:08 <schneid> bmotik: there is no implementor's issue
18:49:10 <IanH> q?
18:50:08 <IanH> q?
18:50:13 <schneid> sandro: RIF WG want's to produce rule reasoners that are automatically RL reasoners
18:50:29 <IanH> q?
18:50:38 <IanH> q?
18:50:44 <alanr> we are majorly involved with technical discussion here. Do we want to be?
18:50:58 <sandro> bmotik: all datatypes are opaque from the perspective of the OWL-RL ruleset
18:51:09 <IanH> q?
18:51:29 <ivan> -> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/OWLRL the current work of the RIF group on combining RIF and OWL RL
18:52:00 <sandro> PROPOSED: Consider the list of datatypes for OWL-RL to be AT RISK for Last Call, saying the list of required datatypes for OWL-RL may be reduced based on feedback
18:52:09 <IanH> q?
18:52:23 <IanH> q?
18:52:26 <IanH> +1
18:52:28 <bmotik> 0
18:52:32 <JeffP> +1
18:52:33 <baojie> 0
18:52:35 <bcuencagrau> 0
18:52:43 <uli> +1
18:52:47 <MarkusK_> +1
18:52:50 <ivan> +1
18:52:55 <Rinke> 0
18:53:05 <schneid> schneid: 0
18:53:08 <sandro> +1
18:53:21 <ewallace> +1
18:53:21 <alanr> +1
18:53:23 <pfps> +1
18:53:32 <sandro> RESOLVED: Consider the list of datatypes for OWL-RL to be AT RISK for Last Call, saying the list of required datatypes for OWL-RL may be reduced based on feedback
18:54:02 <sandro> Boris to do this and add editorial note about RIF coordination.
18:54:20 <schneid> ivan: we need an action for building a TF
18:54:44 <IanH> q?
18:54:45 <schneid> IanH: it's not urgent to do so
18:55:22 <IanH> q?
18:56:02 <schneid> IanH: last point, double check process for publication
18:56:21 <schneid> IanH: everyone confirmed that the documents are finished tomorrow
18:56:21 <IanH> q?
18:56:36 <ivan> clap clap clap
18:56:37 <pfps> I just ran checklinks and validate on all 11 documents - all problems have been sent out
18:56:38 <schneid> IanH: so we can publish next week?
18:56:39 <JeffP> good
18:56:49 <sandro> thanks, peter!
18:57:01 <pfps> pubrules is a different matter, however :-(
18:57:05 <schneid> IanH: again, congrats to everyone for the hard work on the documents