15:46:50 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rif
15:46:50 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/12/11-rif-irc
15:47:01 <ChrisW> zakim, this will be rif
15:47:01 <Zakim> ok, ChrisW; I see SW_RIF()11:00AM scheduled to start in 13 minutes
15:47:27 <ChrisW> Meeting: RIF Telecon 11 Dec 2007
15:47:34 <ChrisW> Chair: Chris Welty
15:48:56 <ChrisW> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2007Dec/0037.html
15:50:00 <ChrisW> Scribe: Mike Dean
15:51:36 <ChrisW> Regrets: Axel
15:52:16 <ChrisW> ChrisW has changed the topic to: 11 Dec RIF agenda http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2007Dec/0037.html
15:52:33 <ChrisW> agenda+ Admin
15:52:38 <ChrisW> zakim, clear agenda
15:52:38 <Zakim> agenda cleared
15:52:39 <ChrisW> agenda+ Admin
15:52:46 <ChrisW> agenda+ Liason
15:52:55 <ChrisW> agenda+ F2F9
15:53:04 <ChrisW> agenda+ BLD - Issue 40
15:53:10 <ChrisW> agenda+ BLD - Issue 41
15:53:17 <ChrisW> agenda+ BLD - Issue 43
15:53:33 <csma> csma has joined #rif
15:53:38 <ChrisW> agenda+ AOB
15:53:49 <ChrisW> zakim, next item
15:53:49 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Admin" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:55:12 <markproctor> markproctor has joined #rif
15:55:24 <Harold> Harold has joined #rif
15:55:46 <markproctor> is there a belgium number I can call?
15:55:53 <markproctor> I'm at a conference, so no landline
15:56:03 <markproctor> and international calls to the US on a mobile are very expensive.
15:56:19 <csma> Mark, there is a number in France
15:56:23 <markproctor> I can get access to a belgium mobile, if there is a belgium number.
15:56:38 <markproctor> no belgium one?
15:56:43 <markproctor> if not France will have to do
15:56:44 <csma> +33 4 89 06 34 99
15:56:56 <mdean> mdean has joined #rif
15:57:06 <markproctor> where do I find the details? this only lists the US number - http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/Telecons
15:57:21 <ChrisW> we should update that
15:57:28 <markproctor> ok, thanks.
15:57:54 <markproctor> I'll just go and find that belgium mobile and call in- hopefully calling france from belgium on a mobile isn't too much.
15:58:47 <patranja> patranja has joined #rif
15:59:02 <ChrisW> rrsagent, make minutes
15:59:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/12/11-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
15:59:35 <Zakim> SW_RIF()11:00AM has now started
15:59:44 <ChrisW> i updated the wiki page with the French number, Christian you should update the email agenda template
15:59:56 <Zakim> +Mike_Dean
15:59:58 <Zakim> +[NRCC]
16:00:04 <Zakim> -Mike_Dean
16:00:05 <mdean> Scribe:  Mike Dean
16:00:06 <Zakim> +Mike_Dean
16:00:11 <mdean> ScribeNick: mdean
16:00:19 <Harold> zakim, NRCC is me
16:00:20 <Zakim> +Harold; got it
16:00:37 <csma> Action: christian to update the agenda template with Zakim french phone number
16:00:38 <rifbot> Created ACTION-394 - Update the agenda template with Zakim french phone number [on Christian de Sainte Marie - due 2007-12-18].
16:00:56 <Zakim> +[IBM]
16:01:15 <ChrisW> zakim, ibm is temporarily me
16:01:15 <Zakim> +ChrisW; got it
16:01:50 <ChrisW> zakim, who is on the phone?
16:01:50 <Zakim> On the phone I see Mike_Dean, Harold, ChrisW
16:01:55 <StellaMitchell> StellaMitchell has joined #rif
16:01:59 <josb> josb has joined #rif
16:02:08 <IgorMozetic> IgorMozetic has joined #rif
16:02:23 <Zakim> +josb
16:02:27 <Zakim> + +49.892.1.aaaa
16:03:21 <Zakim> +Stella_Mitchell
16:03:48 <mdean> postpone approval of last week's minutes since they've only been out for a day
16:04:04 <Zakim> + +324789aabb
16:04:13 <mdean> s/postpone/ChrisW:  postpone/
16:04:15 <markproctor> +MarkProctor
16:04:21 <mdean> Chair:  Chris Welty
16:04:34 <markproctor> damn forgotten how to register a new number
16:04:40 <mdean> action 393 on axel is complete
16:04:53 <Zakim> +??P43
16:04:53 <mdean> action 392 on sandro is complete
16:05:02 <IgorMozetic> zakim, ??P43 is me
16:05:02 <Zakim> +IgorMozetic; got it
16:05:08 <IgorMozetic> zakim, mute me
16:05:08 <Zakim> IgorMozetic should now be muted
16:05:23 <mdean> action 390 on Christian is complete or irrelevant
16:05:46 <mdean> action 389 on jos is complete
16:06:18 <Hassan> Hassan has joined #rif
16:06:48 <Zakim> + +1.650.685.aacc
16:06:50 <Zakim> +Hassan_Ait-Kaci
16:07:03 <csma> zakim, aacc is me
16:07:03 <Zakim> +csma; got it
16:07:12 <mdean> action 386 on Chris is complete:  jos and Mike Dean are RIF members of OWL Task Force - Peter and Uli Sattler are from OWL WG
16:07:49 <mdean> ... may want to pick 1 more from each side
16:08:07 <Zakim> - +324789aabb
16:08:08 <mdean> jos:  2 may be preferable
16:08:15 <LeoraMorgenstern> LeoraMorgenstern has joined #rif
16:08:36 <Zakim> + +324789aadd
16:08:44 <mdean> ChrisW:  ensure all stakeholders are accounted for
16:08:44 <Zakim> +LeoraMorgenstern
16:08:49 <markproctor> Zakim, +324789aadd is me
16:08:49 <Zakim> +markproctor; got it
16:08:50 <LeoraMorgenstern> zakim, please mute me
16:08:50 <Zakim> LeoraMorgenstern should now be muted
16:09:00 <mdean> josb:  interested in OWL Full as well as OWL DL
16:09:12 <LeoraMorgenstern> zakim, please unmute me
16:09:12 <Zakim> LeoraMorgenstern should no longer be muted
16:09:42 <mdean> action 387 on leora is continued
16:09:51 <LeoraMorgenstern> zakim, please mute me
16:09:51 <Zakim> LeoraMorgenstern should now be muted
16:10:16 <mdean> action 384 pending discussion
16:10:28 <mdean> Christian updating actions
16:10:32 <markproctor> I'm in two conference calls at the same time
16:10:49 <markproctor> so do say my name twice, incase I can't follow that part of the call - to get my attention.
16:11:45 <ChrisW> zakim,next item
16:11:45 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Liason" taken up [from ChrisW]
16:11:58 <ChrisW> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/Response_to_PPS1
16:13:10 <mdean> ChrisW:  draft of email response
16:13:12 <josb> don"t understand
16:13:47 <mdean> josb:  partial response to question 14
16:14:27 <mdean> ... semantics is same as RDF - syntax is different - michael might justify why
16:14:38 <Zakim> +Gary_Hallmark
16:14:57 <mdean> ChrisW:  may make second pass
16:15:18 <mdean> ChrisW:  still need to respond to Peter's second message
16:15:52 <Harold> Re 'Liaison', does someone know anything about the results of the OWL Manchester f2f?
16:15:52 <mdean> Action:  Harold to review response to Peter Patel-Schneider
16:15:52 <rifbot> Created ACTION-395 - Review response to Peter Patel-Schneider [on Harold Boley - due 2007-12-18].
16:15:56 <ChrisW> zakim, next item
16:15:56 <Zakim> agendum 3. "F2F9" taken up [from ChrisW]
16:16:13 <GaryHallmark> GaryHallmark has joined #rif
16:16:17 <IgorMozetic> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/38457/f2f9options/results
16:16:24 <mdean> ChrisW:  not a lot of responses to survey
16:16:37 <mdean> Christian:  18 answers currently
16:16:44 <mdean> s/survey/survey earlier/
16:16:50 <Michael_Kifer> Michael_Kifer has joined #rif
16:17:30 <mdean> ChrisW:  let's go with Paris
16:17:44 <mdean> Christian:  will provide dinner
16:17:58 <mdean> Feb 21-22
16:18:24 <mdean> dates decided last week
16:18:59 <mdean> RESOLVED:  F2F9 at iLog ilogin Paris Feb 21-22
16:19:22 <ChrisW> Mike, that's not actually a resolution but a chair decision
16:19:35 <ChrisW> zakim, next item
16:19:35 <Zakim> agendum 4. "BLD - Issue 40" taken up [from ChrisW]
16:19:36 <mdean> s/iLog ilogin/ILOG in/
16:20:04 <ChrisW> zakim, who is on the phone?
16:20:04 <Zakim> On the phone I see Mike_Dean, Harold, ChrisW, josb, PaulaP (muted), Stella_Mitchell, IgorMozetic (muted), csma, Hassan_Ait-Kaci (muted), markproctor, LeoraMorgenstern (muted),
16:20:07 <Zakim> ... Gary_Hallmark
16:20:16 <csma> Michael, are you joining?
16:20:17 <ChrisW> rrsagent, make logs public
16:20:19 <mdean> Christian:  need to book hotels through ILOG - will send email to list
16:20:43 <Zakim> +Michael_Kifer
16:20:52 <Michael_Kifer> zakim, mute me
16:20:52 <Zakim> Michael_Kifer should now be muted
16:21:34 <ChrisW> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/List_of_BLD_built-ins
16:22:42 <mdean> zakim, next item
16:22:42 <Zakim> agendum 6. "BLD - Issue 43" taken up [from ChrisW]
16:23:57 <mdean> thanks
16:23:58 <josb> q+
16:24:39 <josb> q-
16:25:08 <mdean> ChrisW:  anyone who doesn't like option C modulo syntax changes in email?
16:25:19 <PaulaP> +1 for Option C
16:25:33 <mdean> Christian:  logic functions would be different in what way?
16:26:05 <josb> right
16:26:08 <mdean> ChrisW:  external calls have their own syntax
16:26:13 <Harold> Re option c, The Presentation Syntax does not use commas but whitespace as separators:
16:26:16 <Harold> &fn:dateTime( "2006-08-15"^^xs:date, "12:30:45-05:00"xs:time )
16:26:18 <Harold> -->
16:26:23 <Harold> &fn:dateTime( "2006-08-15"^^xs:date "12:30:45-05:00"xs:time )
16:27:46 <josb> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2007Dec/0039.html
16:28:07 <mdean> at end of message
16:30:56 <Harold> Also, I think we should not 'use up' the "&" special character for this purpose; "fn:" is clear enough.
16:30:57 <csma> I would prefer <Apply>...</Apply> instead of <Exterm>
16:31:11 <mdean> RESOLVED:  Option C
16:31:50 <ChrisW> PROPOSED: Go with Axel's option C, that is using a special syntax to distinguish evaluated predicates from logical functions
16:32:09 <Michael_Kifer> zakim, unmute me
16:32:09 <Zakim> Michael_Kifer should no longer be muted
16:33:42 <josb> And (plus(z,1,1) z>y)
16:36:08 <Harold> Michael, do you mean a new predicate greaterThanSum(y 1 1)?
16:36:27 <csma> harold, this too complex
16:36:39 <mdean> Michael:  allow only total functions, not partial
16:36:56 <Harold> Christian, I didn't suggest this :-)
16:37:18 <mdean> Christian:  otherwise define binding patterns
16:37:39 <Harold> However, in F2F8 we tended strongly towards having only builtin predicates.
16:37:51 <Hassan> q+
16:38:12 <Harold> This was because we took out Equal from the (future) Core.
16:38:28 <Michael_Kifer> zakim, mute me
16:38:28 <Zakim> Michael_Kifer should now be muted
16:38:47 <Harold> Without Equal, we can no longer define user-defined functions,
16:38:47 <Michael_Kifer> zakim, unmute me
16:38:47 <Zakim> Michael_Kifer should no longer be muted
16:39:09 <IgorMozetic> q+
16:39:11 <Harold> so it makes little sense to have builtin functions.
16:39:13 <mdean> ChrisW:  resolution is about syntax
16:39:24 <ChrisW> RESOLVED: Go with Axel's option C, that is using a special syntax to distinguish evaluated predicates from logical functions
16:39:37 <ChrisW> ack hassan
16:40:04 <Harold> q+
16:40:22 <Hassan> q-
16:40:23 <Michael_Kifer> zakim, mute me
16:40:24 <Zakim> Michael_Kifer should now be muted
16:40:33 <ChrisW> ack igor
16:42:35 <Michael_Kifer> zakim, unmute me
16:42:35 <Zakim> Michael_Kifer should no longer be muted
16:42:42 <IgorMozetic> zakim, unmute me
16:42:42 <Zakim> IgorMozetic was not muted, IgorMozetic
16:42:42 <Michael_Kifer> zakim, mute me
16:42:44 <Zakim> Michael_Kifer should now be muted
16:42:54 <IgorMozetic> zakim, mute me
16:42:54 <Zakim> IgorMozetic should now be muted
16:43:04 <Hassan> Makes sense now ... Thanks Igor!
16:43:13 <ChrisW> RESOLVED: Go with Axel's option C, that is using a special syntax to distinguish evaluated functions/predicates from logical functions/predicates
16:43:29 <ChrisW> ack har
16:44:04 <csma> q+
16:45:05 <mdean> Harold:  removing Equal may preclude user-defined functions
16:45:18 <mdean> Christian:  wants to allow user-defined functions
16:45:52 <csma> ack csma
16:46:05 <GaryHallmark> equality is in BLD, just not in Core
16:46:14 <mdean> ChrisW:  syntax discussion
16:46:34 <ChrisW> ATOMIC      ::= Uniterm | Equal | ExtTerm
16:46:34 <ChrisW> TERM        ::= Const | Var | Uniterm | ExtTerm
16:46:46 <ChrisW> ExtTerm     ::= '&' Const ' ( ' TERM* ' ) ' 
16:47:10 <josb> q+
16:47:56 <ChrisW> ack jos
16:47:58 <mdean> Christian:  probably not ready to resolve this now
16:47:59 <josb> ExtTerm ::= ' BuiltIn( ' Uniterm ' ) '
16:48:32 <GaryHallmark> I don't agree.  Most PR will be all builtins
16:48:33 <IgorMozetic> but this might make confusion with higher-order predicates
16:48:57 <mdean> ChrisW:  add to Wiki page then discuss next week
16:49:21 <mdean> Gary:  prefer simpler presentation syntax
16:49:45 <mdean> ... prefers & or something similarly concise
16:49:52 <josb> q+
16:49:57 <markproctor> for "builtins" we talking about the first order logic conditional elements? exists, not, forall, collect ?
16:50:08 <markproctor> or are you talking about possible functions used inside test/eval nodes?
16:50:21 <markproctor> typically what goes in a test/eval node is black box.
16:50:22 <csma> no, we are talking about procedural attachments
16:50:41 <markproctor> ok so test/evals
16:50:48 <csma> right
16:50:52 <Michael_Kifer> I agree with Gary
16:51:02 <PaulaP> I can do that
16:51:03 <markproctor> so many engines come with a selection of functions, but you can easily add more.
16:51:10 <josb> how about ExtTerm ::= ' &[ ' Uniterm ' ] '
16:51:22 <PaulaP> ok
16:51:24 <Michael_Kifer> zakim, unmute me
16:51:24 <Zakim> Michael_Kifer should no longer be muted
16:51:35 <csma> same possible confusion with embedding, Jos
16:51:40 <mdean> ACTION:  PaulaP to update BLD syntax for new external calls
16:51:40 <rifbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - PaulaP
16:52:11 <mdean> ACTION:  Paula to update BLD syntax for new external calls
16:52:11 <rifbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - Paula
16:52:36 <csma> Mike, it is PaulaLa
16:52:44 <PaulaP> ok
16:52:55 <PaulaP> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/List_of_BLD_built-ins
16:52:55 <ChrisW> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/List_of_BLD_built-ins
16:52:59 <Harold> Re builtin functions as well as builtin predicates, we should not introduce the **redundancy** of having all/many of the (arithmetic, ...) builtins TWICE, functionally as well as logically.
16:53:06 <ChrisW> zakim, list agenda
16:53:06 <Zakim> I see 2 items remaining on the agenda:
16:53:08 <Zakim> 6. BLD - Issue 43 [from ChrisW]
16:53:10 <Zakim> 7. AOB [from ChrisW]
16:53:31 <mdean> ACTION:  PaulaLa to update BLD list of builtins for new external calls
16:53:31 <rifbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - PaulaLa
16:53:51 <Michael_Kifer> zakim, mute me
16:53:51 <Zakim> Michael_Kifer should now be muted
16:54:03 <csma> q+
16:54:08 <josb> q-
16:54:15 <csma> q?
16:54:44 <Michael_Kifer> zakim, unmute me
16:54:44 <Zakim> Michael_Kifer should no longer be muted
16:56:02 <mdean> Michael:  charter addresses frame syntax
16:56:11 <csma> q?
16:56:30 <mdean> ... to accommodate round-tripping of frame-based languages
16:56:45 <mdean> Michael:  Core as profile of BLD
16:57:06 <mdean> ... defining dialect is a lot of work, but profile (restrictions) are easy
16:57:13 <csma> q?
16:57:57 <csma> q?
16:58:14 <ChrisW> ack c
16:58:29 <mdean> Michael:  if we don't include subclass and membership in BLD, then no reason to include frames
16:59:00 <mdean> Christian:  data model should be passed out-of-band
16:59:37 <mdean> ... this is the argument against
16:59:52 <josb> Sorry, I have to go now
17:00:05 <josb> I am not against getting rid of frames in core
17:00:11 <josb> bye
17:00:22 <Zakim> -josb
17:00:25 <GaryHallmark> argument for # and ##: you can exchange more rules without understanding details of data models
17:01:27 <mdean> Christian:  suggest BLD++ with membership and subclass
17:01:43 <mdean> ... will need mechanism to extend dialects
17:01:57 <mdean> Michael:  such a mechanism will be very complicated
17:02:02 <GaryHallmark> argument against # and ##: you have to "bend" your data model to conform to RIF's notion of # and ##
17:04:21 <mdean> Michael:  BLD should be technically complete
17:04:49 <mdean> Christian:  will also have to discuss equality
17:07:15 <GaryHallmark> hand in hand
17:07:36 <mdean> ChrisW (not as chair):  would like membership but not classification
17:07:43 <markproctor> was there a URL to provide the definition difference between the two?
17:07:45 <Hassan> I have no clue ???
17:08:36 <mdean> straw poll indicates that the 2 should be treated together, although jos and Dave Reynolds aren't here
17:08:58 <markproctor> so no wiki page explaining the difference?
17:09:08 <Hassan> To me they are the same thing ... If you can do one, you can do the other. Membership = subtype + singleton-denoting-set
17:09:09 <GaryHallmark> +1 with Michael, too much design by committee is not good
17:09:14 <mdean> ChrisW:  doesn't make sense to discuss this now
17:09:16 <csma> they are defined in BLD
17:09:25 <ChrisW> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/track/issues/45
17:09:34 <markproctor> someone want to do an action item to define classification/membership in the wiki?
17:09:36 <mdean> issue 45 lists
17:09:38 <ChrisW> agendum Issue 45 Lists
17:09:43 <Michael_Kifer> zakim, mute me
17:09:43 <Zakim> Michael_Kifer should now be muted
17:09:51 <markproctor> no isn't it issue 44?
17:09:54 <csma> a # b is: instance a is a member of class b
17:09:58 <markproctor> Issue 44 (named arguments Uniterm) [13]
17:10:06 <csma> a## b is cals a is a subclass of class b
17:10:59 <mdean> ChrisW:  don't yet have a proposal for lists
17:11:38 <mdean> Christian:  lists in logic vs. list as type
17:11:52 <GaryHallmark> if you have logic functions, you have logic lists
17:12:06 <Harold> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/Core/List_Constructor
17:13:23 <mdean> Harold:  OWL 1.1 sequence construct
17:13:51 <mdean> ... mapped to RDF
17:13:51 <markproctor> markproctor has joined #rif
17:14:34 <mdean> ChrisW:  just syntactic sugar for rdf:List
17:14:35 <GaryHallmark> need list builtins as well for dialects not supporting logical functions
17:15:53 <mdean> ChrisW:  does OWL 1.1 allow nested sequences?
17:16:02 <mdean> Harold:  don't see any reason why it shouldn't
17:17:47 <mdean> Gary:  won't work so well for production rules
17:19:13 <mdean> Gary:  need builtins to access lists
17:19:18 <Harold> Gary, lists are part of Horn logic, not Datalog.
17:19:39 <markproctor> peeps we didn't discuss 44?
17:19:39 <csma> Michael, I think the easy way out for Core, BLD, BLD++ (or Core, BLD--, BLD) is to have it both way: (1) we keep the BLD document; (2) we specify CORE, BLD-+, BLD+- as restrictions against the complete spec; (3) we call each of them a dialect and) we change the title of the document accordingly. That works because they are specified in the same document, so there is really no difference between a dialect and a profile.
17:19:39 <ChrisW> zakim, take up item 6
17:19:39 <Zakim> agendum 6. "BLD - Issue 43" taken up [from ChrisW]
17:19:44 <Harold> So, we could have them only in BLD, not in the Core.
17:19:47 <mdean> ChrisW:  end early
17:19:59 <ChrisW> zakim, pick a victim
17:19:59 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Hassan_Ait-Kaci (muted)
17:20:00 <markproctor> Issue 44 (named arguments Uniterm) [13]
17:20:07 <markproctor> we didn't discuss that right?
17:20:07 <Harold> But why not have builtins for opaque lists already in the Core.
17:20:24 <mdean> Hassan will scribe next week
17:20:25 <Harold> ('opaque' in the sense of arrays)
17:20:25 <csma> Mark, no, it will be included in the profile/dialect discussion
17:20:28 <Zakim> -IgorMozetic
17:20:29 <mdean> Chris:  adjourned
17:20:33 <Zakim> -Gary_Hallmark
17:20:34 <Zakim> -Michael_Kifer
17:20:34 <PaulaP> bye
17:20:35 <Zakim> -Harold
17:20:36 <Zakim> -Hassan_Ait-Kaci
17:20:37 <markproctor> ah ok
17:20:38 <Zakim> -Stella_Mitchell
17:20:38 <mdean> s/Chris/ChrisW/
17:20:39 <markproctor> ok peeps 
17:20:42 <Zakim> -PaulaP
17:20:43 <markproctor> see ya later
17:20:47 <ChrisW> zakim, list attendees
17:20:47 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Mike_Dean, Harold, ChrisW, josb, +49.892.1.aaaa, PaulaP, Stella_Mitchell, +324789aabb, IgorMozetic, +1.650.685.aacc, Hassan_Ait-Kaci, csma,
17:20:50 <Zakim> ... LeoraMorgenstern, markproctor, Gary_Hallmark, Michael_Kifer
17:20:51 <Zakim> -markproctor
17:20:52 <Zakim> -LeoraMorgenstern
17:20:56 <ChrisW> rrsagent, make minutes
17:20:56 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/12/11-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
17:21:23 <ChrisW> zakim, who is on the phone?
17:21:23 <Zakim> On the phone I see Mike_Dean, ChrisW, csma
17:21:33 <Zakim> -Mike_Dean
17:25:10 <Zakim> -ChrisW
17:25:13 <Zakim> -csma
17:25:15 <Zakim> SW_RIF()11:00AM has ended
17:25:17 <Zakim> Attendees were Mike_Dean, Harold, ChrisW, josb, +49.892.1.aaaa, PaulaP, Stella_Mitchell, +324789aabb, IgorMozetic, +1.650.685.aacc, Hassan_Ait-Kaci, csma, LeoraMorgenstern,
17:25:20 <Zakim> ... markproctor, Gary_Hallmark, Michael_Kifer