IRC log of xhtml on 2007-11-28

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:02:02 [RRSAgent]
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14:02:02 [RRSAgent]
logging to
14:02:11 [Steven]
zakim, room for 10?
14:02:13 [Zakim]
ok, Steven; conference Team_(xhtml)14:02Z scheduled with code 26632 (CONF2) for 60 minutes until 1502Z
14:02:17 [Steven]
14:02:21 [Zakim]
Team_(xhtml)14:02Z has now started
14:02:22 [Steven]
14:02:29 [Zakim]
14:02:30 [Steven]
zakim, dial steven-617
14:02:30 [Zakim]
ok, Steven; the call is being made
14:02:31 [Zakim]
14:03:00 [oedipus]
first time, "call has not yet started" -- second time "invalid conference code"
14:03:03 [Steven]
rrsagent, make log public
14:03:11 [Zakim]
14:03:15 [Steven]
Meeting: XHTML2 WG Weekly Teleconference
14:03:18 [ShaneM]
use the code 26632
14:03:39 [yamx]
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14:03:46 [oedipus]
thanks shane -- too many aural streams at once...
14:03:46 [Steven]
Chair: Roland
14:03:51 [Steven]
Scribe: Steven
14:04:17 [Steven]
14:04:25 [Zakim]
14:04:47 [Steven]
Steven has changed the topic to: Code 26632; Agenda:
14:05:18 [Steven]
--> Previous
14:05:30 [Steven]
rrsagent, make minutes
14:05:30 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Steven
14:05:56 [Steven]
Regrets: MarkB
14:06:15 [Steven]
zakim, who is here?
14:06:15 [Zakim]
On the phone I see ShaneM, Steven, +013868aaaa, Gregory_Rosmaita
14:06:16 [Zakim]
On IRC I see yamx, RRSAgent, Zakim, oedipus, Roland, myakura, ShaneM, Lachy, Steven, krijnh
14:06:32 [yamx]
The call returned "conference is restricted at this time", what is it?
14:06:33 [Steven]
zakim, +0 is Roland
14:06:34 [Zakim]
+Roland; got it
14:07:19 [Rich]
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14:08:44 [Steven]
Topic: Calls over the holiday period
14:09:04 [Steven]
Roland: I'm not here the 26th
14:09:21 [Steven]
Steven: I'm away for December
14:09:22 [Rich]
I am being told the conference is restricted
14:09:30 [Steven]
Rich, note new code
14:09:38 [Steven]
14:09:48 [Steven]
Roland: Call OK for next week
14:09:49 [oedipus]
GJR: no problem with call on december 19
14:09:53 [Steven]
Roiland: 19th OK?
14:10:00 [Steven]
... Ok we assume the 19th is OK
14:10:05 [Steven]
... no call on the 26th
14:10:39 [oedipus]
boxing day the only skipped date?
14:10:43 [Steven]
... we resume on the 2nd?
14:10:56 [Zakim]
14:11:01 [Steven]
... so we miss just one week, the 26th of December
14:11:38 [Steven]
zakim, +[ is Rich
14:11:38 [Zakim]
sorry, Steven, I do not recognize a party named '+['
14:11:46 [Steven]
zakim, [ is Rich
14:11:46 [Zakim]
+Rich; got it
14:12:04 [Steven]
Roland: I will do agendas for this month
14:12:16 [Steven]
Steven: I will be around in case of need (for instance transition calls)
14:12:29 [markbirbeck]
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14:12:35 [Steven]
Topic: Announcements
14:12:52 [Steven]
Roland: We produced a new draft of CURIEs last week
14:12:55 [alessio]
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14:13:22 [Steven]
... and we have a request outstanding for FPWD of Access
14:13:31 [alessio]
hi... sorry I'm late, is it possible to join actually?
14:13:41 [Steven]
yes, see topic Alessio
14:13:45 [Steven]
different code
14:13:54 [alessio]
ahhhhh tanks ;)
14:13:56 [Steven]
Roland: And ITS review?
14:14:00 [Steven]
Shane: We are happy with it
14:14:05 [alessio]
14:14:11 [Steven]
ACTION: Steven to send ITS review (=thanksyou, it's fine)
14:14:19 [Steven]
Topic: Testing of XHTML Basic 1.1
14:14:29 [markbirbeck]
Hello all...first I apologise for forgetting that we are an hour earlier this week, but second, I won't be able to make it, since a meeting has come up for 2.30pm, so I'm leaving the office now. All the best.
14:14:33 [Zakim]
14:14:47 [Steven]
zakim, ??P13 is Alessio
14:14:47 [Zakim]
+Alessio; got it
14:14:58 [Zakim]
14:15:21 [yamx]
P13 is yamx, I think.
14:15:24 [Steven]
Zakim, Alessio is Yam
14:15:24 [Zakim]
+Yam; got it
14:15:25 [alessio]
14:15:32 [Steven]
zakim, [IP is Alessio
14:15:32 [Zakim]
+Alessio; got it
14:16:27 [Steven]
Roland: Yam, are you able to report on this now?
14:16:54 [Steven]
Yam: At least my colleague is testing inputmode, so it is on the way
14:17:01 [Steven]
Roland: When might it be done?
14:17:06 [Steven]
Yam: Next week I think
14:17:09 [Tina]
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14:17:19 [Steven]
Steven: That's good news
14:17:40 [Steven]
Yam: I think we are on schedule with the implementation
14:18:00 [Steven]
... the team spotted two errors, and are fixing that
14:18:26 [Steven]
... all three test cases are tested in out technical team
14:18:33 [Steven]
14:18:53 [Steven]
14:19:04 [Steven]
Topic: Title issue (RDFa vs Role)
14:19:21 [oedipus]
GJR: RDFa versus Role to be discussed at today's telecon
14:19:25 [Steven]
Roland: There was going to be a followup meeting on this
14:20:32 [Steven]
Steven: Rich, what is your take on the current opinions in the PF about the use of role for title?
14:20:43 [Steven]
Rich: Well, clearly title isn't a unique thing
14:20:54 [Steven]
... since it may apply to many sections
14:21:26 [Steven]
... it hasn't been proven to me why you need a title element for sections and the whole document
14:21:34 [Steven]
... maybe because of iframe
14:23:05 [Steven]
Steven: So we have a way to do that, the property element equal to dc:title
14:23:18 [Steven]
14:23:42 [Steven]
... <h1 property="dc:title">My life</h1>
14:24:09 [Steven]
Rick: We also have labelledby
14:24:15 [Steven]
14:24:20 [ShaneM]
Note that the RDFa spec does not say that something with a property of dc:title is the same as / overrides the title element.
14:24:35 [oedipus]
GJR: labelledby for today, RDFa for next round
14:25:46 [Steven]
Steven: I agree that role is the wrong way to do it
14:25:55 [Steven]
... but the use case is still covered
14:26:12 [Steven]
Roland: SO the short term goal is role, and the long term goal is RDFa
14:26:16 [Steven]
14:26:38 [oedipus]
GJR: short term goal is "labelledby" (ARIA syntax); long term goal is to use RDFa and explore means of communicating RDFa to Assistive Technologies
14:27:26 [Steven]
Steven: You can also say <h2 about="#section3" property="dc:title">Future tasks</h2>
14:27:56 [Steven]
... which says what the title is for some subsection
14:28:05 [oedipus]
original example: <h1>Record #35793: <span property="dc:title">Title of Document or Sub-Document or portion of document</span></h1>
14:28:17 [oedipus]
thread starts here:
14:28:26 [Steven]
ROland: If we are happy, let's move on
14:28:31 [Steven]
14:28:33 [Rich]
short term solution: <div role="secondary" aria-labelledby="26">
14:28:33 [Rich]
<div role="header" id="26:>Last week's News Stories</div>
14:28:33 [Rich]
14:28:33 [Rich]
14:29:44 [oedipus]
aria- is what has been implemented so far -- Jon Gunderson still using aria: in some examples
14:30:36 [oedipus]
aria- being pushed by implementors/developers -- not a patient lot -- don't care about standardization, but product delivery
14:30:41 [Rich]
14:31:51 [oedipus]
+1 to Tina's observation about using DIV to substitute for semantically meaningful markup (theory, i suppose, is that ARIA makes it semantically meaningful, but that is a strawman, in my opinion
14:34:35 [oedipus]
extensibility for all but those who don't want it (HTML5 devs) -- SVG integration into HTML5 may be made redundant if CANVAS carries
14:39:37 [Steven]
Steven: I don't think that the aria attributes should be chameleon
14:40:32 [Steven]
... you want them to work everywhere, without changing the languages
14:40:43 [Steven]
Shane: Well, why is role chameleon then?
14:41:05 [Steven]
Shane: Language designers can decide for themselves
14:44:08 [Steven]
Topic: TAG role comment
14:44:12 [Steven]
Roland: THis is ongoing
14:44:18 [Steven]
... I still have to do the response to them
14:44:31 [Steven]
Topic: Events2 Comment (Purpose)
14:44:47 [Steven]
Rich: We need a description of the handler
14:44:50 [oedipus]
DanC keeps reiterating that "NOTHING" has been decided; there has been, however a "formal survey" on immediate role graphics and CANVAS
14:45:03 [Steven]
(which will become the first decision)
14:45:08 [oedipus]
14:45:25 [Steven]
Rich: And <purpose> was there for that
14:46:53 [oedipus]
Steve: handler specs, purpose element -- strictly speaking with so many types of handlers, good to have solution that addresses that as well; idea of purpose description is very good one -- if can find way to do it; Mark suggested role, i can envision using RDFa to pass description of handler (metadata in a way)
14:47:16 [oedipus]
RS: place to put text, associate text with handler via RDFa -- mechanism to put actual text in handler?
14:47:46 [oedipus]
Rich: liked Roland's proposal -- similar to solution for XForms
14:48:19 [oedipus]
Roland: why not provide information - this is a label, this is what it does, hint can be obtained on user request (tell me more about this)
14:48:29 [oedipus]
Steve: label in relation to handler?
14:48:38 [oedipus]
Rich: don't see how label fits for handler
14:48:56 [oedipus]
Roland: if here is a trigger and this is the handler for it, could get label from handler
14:49:02 [oedipus]
Steve: have to think about that
14:49:36 [oedipus]
Roland: have as many as want in UI - don't have to write twice; and can get supporting materials
14:49:42 [oedipus]
Rich: XML Events -- how to do?
14:49:50 [oedipus]
Roland: can still have element as child of handler
14:50:05 [Roland]
14:50:29 [Roland]
<action id="doThat">
14:50:30 [Roland]
<label>Do That</label>
14:50:30 [Roland]
<hint>performing this action will delight you.</hint>.
14:50:30 [Roland]
<script type="application/x-javascript">
14:50:30 [Roland]
14:50:31 [Roland]
14:50:33 [Roland]
14:51:04 [Steven]
Shane: Any of this is fine
14:51:16 [Steven]
... only as long as we don't overengineer it
14:51:34 [Steven]
Roland: No one says we have to do all three
14:51:38 [Steven]
... but in XForms we do
14:51:46 [Steven]
... a label for the UI layer
14:51:50 [oedipus]
14:52:07 [Steven]
Shane: WHat is the UA requirement for a label
14:52:20 [Steven]
Roland: That it is presented to the user
14:52:24 [Steven]
14:52:34 [Steven]
14:52:45 [oedipus]
GJR: can use "prolog" in ARIA concept to provide richer, fuller human-understandable information about specifics of choice (if choice available)
14:52:55 [Steven]
Shane: If I have a span
14:53:04 [Steven]
... and associate an access key with it
14:53:21 [Steven]
... and a handler that is invoked by that key
14:53:36 [Steven]
... if the handler has a label, how does that get manifested?
14:53:45 [Steven]
Roland: I don't think it does
14:53:51 [Steven]
Shane: OK, good
14:54:32 [Steven]
Rich: So do we need all 3 in XML Events2?
14:54:45 [Steven]
Roland: Well, I was suggesting su=ynergy with stuff we have already
14:54:50 [Steven]
... you don't HAVE to use them
14:55:01 [Steven]
14:55:08 [Steven]
Rich: I see, fine
14:55:21 [Steven]
... I see a way of mapping it to the accessibility API
14:55:53 [Steven]
Gregory: See my comment abouyt 'prologg' in aria
14:55:58 [Steven]
14:56:03 [Steven]
14:56:08 [Steven]
... above
14:56:33 [ShaneM]
So I think what I need to do is steal the label, hint, and help elements from XForms and put them into XML Events 2?
14:56:33 [Steven]
Rich: If we had a declarative model, like XForms data model, we could do this all a lot easier
14:57:02 [Steven]
Roland: So I'm saying XForms, and therefore XHTML2 has this already, so why not reuse it rather than reinventing stuff
14:57:22 [Steven]
Shand: DO you mean add it to handlers?
14:57:26 [Steven]
Roland: Yes
14:57:32 [Steven]
14:57:33 [oedipus]
+1 add to handlers and reuse in XForms
14:57:36 [Steven]
14:57:38 [alessio]
14:58:13 [Steven]
14:58:18 [Steven]
ack oe
14:58:58 [Steven]
Rich: So we'll be using XML Evbents2 in XHTML2?
14:58:58 [ShaneM]
14:59:14 [Steven]
Steven: That is the plan, but there is an overlap with XForms,which still uses XML Events 1
14:59:22 [Steven]
... and we will use XForms 1.1
15:00:10 [Steven]
Rich: XHTML2 is not fully supported in the browser, and there is HTML, we are looking at a dual timeline in the WAI area
15:00:21 [Steven]
Sack Sh
15:00:26 [Steven]
ack sh
15:00:34 [Steven]
Topic: CURIEs
15:00:46 [Steven]
Shane: I would like to go to last call in 2 weeks on CURIEs
15:00:52 [Steven]
... just to push the fight
15:01:24 [Steven]
... we can deal with the comments
15:01:35 [Steven]
Steven: Length?
15:01:43 [Steven]
Roland: TIll late January
15:01:48 [Steven]
... for the ftf
15:01:53 [Steven]
Shane: 6 or 7 weeks
15:02:10 [Steven]
Steven: Any objections
15:02:22 [Steven]
Shane: I will prepare a draft for next week's call
15:02:36 [Steven]
Steven: Will put on the agenda
15:02:50 [Zakim]
15:02:51 [Zakim]
15:02:52 [Zakim]
15:02:54 [Zakim]
15:02:55 [Zakim]
15:02:55 [Zakim]
15:02:56 [Zakim]
Team_(xhtml)14:02Z has ended
15:02:57 [Zakim]
Attendees were ShaneM, Steven, Roland, Gregory_Rosmaita, [IBM], Rich, [IPcaller], Yam, Alessio
15:03:05 [Steven]
ACTION: Roland put last call of CURIES on next week's agenda
15:03:17 [Steven]
ACTION: SHane prepare a new draft of CURIES for next week
15:03:24 [Steven]
15:03:30 [Steven]
rrsagent, make minutes
15:03:30 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Steven
15:04:02 [Steven]
15:04:06 [Steven]
rrsagent, make minutes
15:04:06 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Steven
15:08:59 [CSB]
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15:09:29 [Rich]
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15:14:08 [CSB]
hi, steve?
15:16:44 [Steven]
15:16:58 [Steven]
Hi Christina
15:17:07 [Steven]
now I realise who you are :-)
15:17:19 [CSB]
15:17:45 [CSB]
didn't see any traffic and wanted to check that my setup was correct.
15:18:16 [Steven]
Oops. We decided to move the call an hour earlier, for the sake of our Japanese colleagues
15:18:28 [Steven]
Did you not see the traffic around that?
15:18:58 [Steven]
No, 14:00UTC is right
15:19:06 [Steven]
it is now 15:18 UTC
15:19:09 [CSB]
I thought the adgenda time would have taken that into account?
15:19:32 [CSB]
really, my converter said 1400utc was 10 am Atlantic. Ugh
15:20:03 [CSB]
well, maybe we can talk about the best way to give spec feedback?
15:20:34 [Steven]
15:21:40 [CSB]
I was thinking notes corresponding to the section numbers.
15:22:41 [Steven]
Sounds perfect
15:23:04 [Steven]
Every section has it's own URL, so quoting that and then the comments would help the editors
15:23:12 [Steven]
15:23:20 [Steven]
(I hate people who do that :-) )
15:23:25 [CSB]
15:23:31 [CSB]
I can do that.
15:23:52 [CSB]
and the correct version of the spec that I should look at is at?
15:25:27 [Steven]
the latest editor's draft
15:25:29 [CSB]
and I think we said before it was better to give feedback in stages
15:25:32 [Steven]
15:25:46 [Steven]
15:26:12 [Steven]
In stages makes it easier to digest, that's for sure
15:26:56 [CSB]
Ok--I'll send you something for the next call.
15:27:12 [CSB]
I also want to look at a couple of the groups that are putting out primers
15:27:25 [CSB]
I have those in my motes somewhere from the conference.
15:27:33 [CSB]
15:28:40 [Steven]
15:28:54 [Steven]
Take a look at XForms for HTML Authors too
15:29:02 [Steven]
(which is a primer for XForms)
15:29:23 [Steven]
15:30:24 [CSB]
ok--thanks. That should keep me busy for a while
15:30:34 [CSB]
have a nice afternoon
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