IRC log of xhtml on 2007-11-28

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:02:02 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #xhtml

14:02:02 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/11/28-xhtml-irc

14:02:11 [Steven]

zakim, room for 10?

14:02:13 [Zakim]

ok, Steven; conference Team_(xhtml)14:02Z scheduled with code 26632 (CONF2) for 60 minutes until 1502Z

14:02:17 [Steven]

NOTE CODE

14:02:21 [Zakim]

Team_(xhtml)14:02Z has now started

14:02:22 [Steven]

CONF2

14:02:29 [Zakim]

+ShaneM

14:02:30 [Steven]

zakim, dial steven-617

14:02:30 [Zakim]

ok, Steven; the call is being made

14:02:31 [Zakim]

+Steven

14:03:00 [oedipus]

first time, "call has not yet started" -- second time "invalid conference code"

14:03:03 [Steven]

rrsagent, make log public

14:03:11 [Zakim]

+Roland

14:03:15 [Steven]

Meeting: XHTML2 WG Weekly Teleconference

14:03:18 [ShaneM]

use the code 26632

14:03:39 [yamx]

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14:03:46 [oedipus]

thanks shane -- too many aural streams at once...

14:03:46 [Steven]

Chair: Roland

14:03:51 [Steven]

Scribe: Steven

14:04:17 [Steven]

Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2007Nov/0043

14:04:25 [Zakim]

+Gregory_Rosmaita

14:04:47 [Steven]

Steven has changed the topic to: Code 26632; Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2007Nov/0043

14:05:18 [Steven]

--> Previous http://www.w3.org/2007/11/21-xhtml-minutes

14:05:30 [Steven]

rrsagent, make minutes

14:05:30 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/28-xhtml-minutes.html Steven

14:05:56 [Steven]

Regrets: MarkB

14:06:15 [Steven]

zakim, who is here?

14:06:15 [Zakim]

On the phone I see ShaneM, Steven, +013868aaaa, Gregory_Rosmaita

14:06:16 [Zakim]

On IRC I see yamx, RRSAgent, Zakim, oedipus, Roland, myakura, ShaneM, Lachy, Steven, krijnh

14:06:32 [yamx]

The call returned "conference is restricted at this time", what is it?

14:06:33 [Steven]

zakim, +0 is Roland

14:06:34 [Zakim]

+Roland; got it

14:07:19 [Rich]

Rich has joined #xhtml

14:08:44 [Steven]

Topic: Calls over the holiday period

14:09:04 [Steven]

Roland: I'm not here the 26th

14:09:21 [Steven]

Steven: I'm away for December

14:09:22 [Rich]

I am being told the conference is restricted

14:09:30 [Steven]

Rich, note new code

14:09:38 [Steven]

26632

14:09:48 [Steven]

Roland: Call OK for next week

14:09:49 [oedipus]

GJR: no problem with call on december 19

14:09:53 [Steven]

Roiland: 19th OK?

14:10:00 [Steven]

... Ok we assume the 19th is OK

14:10:05 [Steven]

... no call on the 26th

14:10:39 [oedipus]

boxing day the only skipped date?

14:10:43 [Steven]

... we resume on the 2nd?

14:10:56 [Zakim]

+[IBM]

14:11:01 [Steven]

... so we miss just one week, the 26th of December

14:11:38 [Steven]

zakim, +[ is Rich

14:11:38 [Zakim]

sorry, Steven, I do not recognize a party named '+['

14:11:46 [Steven]

zakim, [ is Rich

14:11:46 [Zakim]

+Rich; got it

14:12:04 [Steven]

Roland: I will do agendas for this month

14:12:16 [Steven]

Steven: I will be around in case of need (for instance transition calls)

14:12:29 [markbirbeck]

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14:12:35 [Steven]

Topic: Announcements

14:12:52 [Steven]

Roland: We produced a new draft of CURIEs last week

14:12:55 [alessio]

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14:13:22 [Steven]

... and we have a request outstanding for FPWD of Access

14:13:31 [alessio]

hi... sorry I'm late, is it possible to join actually?

14:13:41 [Steven]

yes, see topic Alessio

14:13:45 [Steven]

different code

14:13:54 [alessio]

ahhhhh tanks ;)

14:13:56 [Steven]

Roland: And ITS review?

14:14:00 [Steven]

Shane: We are happy with it

14:14:05 [alessio]

thanks

14:14:11 [Steven]

ACTION: Steven to send ITS review (=thanksyou, it's fine)

14:14:19 [Steven]

Topic: Testing of XHTML Basic 1.1

14:14:29 [markbirbeck]

Hello all...first I apologise for forgetting that we are an hour earlier this week, but second, I won't be able to make it, since a meeting has come up for 2.30pm, so I'm leaving the office now. All the best.

14:14:33 [Zakim]

+??P13

14:14:47 [Steven]

zakim, ??P13 is Alessio

14:14:47 [Zakim]

+Alessio; got it

14:14:58 [Zakim]

+[IPcaller]

14:15:21 [yamx]

P13 is yamx, I think.

14:15:24 [Steven]

Zakim, Alessio is Yam

14:15:24 [Zakim]

+Yam; got it

14:15:25 [alessio]

yes

14:15:32 [Steven]

zakim, [IP is Alessio

14:15:32 [Zakim]

+Alessio; got it

14:16:27 [Steven]

Roland: Yam, are you able to report on this now?

14:16:54 [Steven]

Yam: At least my colleague is testing inputmode, so it is on the way

14:17:01 [Steven]

Roland: When might it be done?

14:17:06 [Steven]

Yam: Next week I think

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14:17:19 [Steven]

Steven: That's good news

14:17:40 [Steven]

Yam: I think we are on schedule with the implementation

14:18:00 [Steven]

... the team spotted two errors, and are fixing that

14:18:26 [Steven]

... all three test cases are tested in out technical team

14:18:33 [Steven]

s/out/our/

14:18:53 [Steven]

s/thanksyou/thankyou/

14:19:04 [Steven]

Topic: Title issue (RDFa vs Role)

14:19:21 [oedipus]

GJR: RDFa versus Role to be discussed at today's telecon

14:19:25 [Steven]

Roland: There was going to be a followup meeting on this

14:20:32 [Steven]

Steven: Rich, what is your take on the current opinions in the PF about the use of role for title?

14:20:43 [Steven]

Rich: Well, clearly title isn't a unique thing

14:20:54 [Steven]

... since it may apply to many sections

14:21:26 [Steven]

... it hasn't been proven to me why you need a title element for sections and the whole document

14:21:34 [Steven]

... maybe because of iframe

14:23:05 [Steven]

Steven: So we have a way to do that, the property element equal to dc:title

14:23:18 [Steven]

s/element/attribute/

14:23:42 [Steven]

... <h1 property="dc:title">My life</h1>

14:24:09 [Steven]

Rick: We also have labelledby

14:24:15 [Steven]

s/Rick/Rich/

14:24:20 [ShaneM]

Note that the RDFa spec does not say that something with a property of dc:title is the same as / overrides the title element.

14:24:35 [oedipus]

GJR: labelledby for today, RDFa for next round

14:25:46 [Steven]

Steven: I agree that role is the wrong way to do it

14:25:55 [Steven]

... but the use case is still covered

14:26:12 [Steven]

Roland: SO the short term goal is role, and the long term goal is RDFa

14:26:16 [Steven]

s/SO/So/

14:26:38 [oedipus]

GJR: short term goal is "labelledby" (ARIA syntax); long term goal is to use RDFa and explore means of communicating RDFa to Assistive Technologies

14:27:26 [Steven]

Steven: You can also say <h2 about="#section3" property="dc:title">Future tasks</h2>

14:27:56 [Steven]

... which says what the title is for some subsection

14:28:05 [oedipus]

original example: <h1>Record #35793: <span property="dc:title">Title of Document or Sub-Document or portion of document</span></h1>

14:28:17 [oedipus]

thread starts here: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-wai-pf/2007OctDec/0191.html

14:28:26 [Steven]

ROland: If we are happy, let's move on

14:28:31 [Steven]

s/RO/Ro/

14:28:33 [Rich]

short term solution: <div role="secondary" aria-labelledby="26">

14:28:33 [Rich]

<div role="header" id="26:>Last week's News Stories</div>

14:28:33 [Rich]

</div>

14:28:33 [Rich]

<.div>

14:29:44 [oedipus]

aria- is what has been implemented so far -- Jon Gunderson still using aria: in some examples

14:30:36 [oedipus]

aria- being pushed by implementors/developers -- not a patient lot -- don't care about standardization, but product delivery

14:30:41 [Rich]

aria:aria-labelledby

14:31:51 [oedipus]

+1 to Tina's observation about using DIV to substitute for semantically meaningful markup (theory, i suppose, is that ARIA makes it semantically meaningful, but that is a strawman, in my opinion

14:34:35 [oedipus]

extensibility for all but those who don't want it (HTML5 devs) -- SVG integration into HTML5 may be made redundant if CANVAS carries

14:39:37 [Steven]

Steven: I don't think that the aria attributes should be chameleon

14:40:32 [Steven]

... you want them to work everywhere, without changing the languages

14:40:43 [Steven]

Shane: Well, why is role chameleon then?

14:41:05 [Steven]

Shane: Language designers can decide for themselves

14:44:08 [Steven]

Topic: TAG role comment

14:44:12 [Steven]

Roland: THis is ongoing

14:44:18 [Steven]

... I still have to do the response to them

14:44:31 [Steven]

Topic: Events2 Comment (Purpose)

14:44:47 [Steven]

Rich: We need a description of the handler

14:44:50 [oedipus]

DanC keeps reiterating that "NOTHING" has been decided; there has been, however a "formal survey" on immediate role graphics and CANVAS

14:45:03 [Steven]

(which will become the first decision)

14:45:08 [oedipus]

right

14:45:25 [Steven]

Rich: And <purpose> was there for that

14:46:53 [oedipus]

Steve: handler specs, purpose element -- strictly speaking with so many types of handlers, good to have solution that addresses that as well; idea of purpose description is very good one -- if can find way to do it; Mark suggested role, i can envision using RDFa to pass description of handler (metadata in a way)

14:47:16 [oedipus]

RS: place to put text, associate text with handler via RDFa -- mechanism to put actual text in handler?

14:47:46 [oedipus]

Rich: liked Roland's proposal -- similar to solution for XForms

14:48:19 [oedipus]

Roland: why not provide information - this is a label, this is what it does, hint can be obtained on user request (tell me more about this)

14:48:29 [oedipus]

Steve: label in relation to handler?

14:48:38 [oedipus]

Rich: don't see how label fits for handler

14:48:56 [oedipus]

Roland: if here is a trigger and this is the handler for it, could get label from handler

14:49:02 [oedipus]

Steve: have to think about that

14:49:36 [oedipus]

Roland: have as many as want in UI - don't have to write twice; and can get supporting materials

14:49:42 [oedipus]

Rich: XML Events -- how to do?

14:49:50 [oedipus]

Roland: can still have element as child of handler

14:50:05 [Roland]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html-editor/2007OctDec/0027.html

14:50:29 [Roland]

<action id="doThat">

14:50:30 [Roland]

<label>Do That</label>

14:50:30 [Roland]

<hint>performing this action will delight you.</hint>.

14:50:30 [Roland]

<script type="application/x-javascript">

14:50:30 [Roland]

doactivate(event);

14:50:31 [Roland]

</script>

14:50:33 [Roland]

</action>

14:51:04 [Steven]

Shane: Any of this is fine

14:51:16 [Steven]

... only as long as we don't overengineer it

14:51:34 [Steven]

Roland: No one says we have to do all three

14:51:38 [Steven]

... but in XForms we do

14:51:46 [Steven]

... a label for the UI layer

14:51:50 [oedipus]

q+

14:52:07 [Steven]

Shane: WHat is the UA requirement for a label

14:52:20 [Steven]

Roland: That it is presented to the user

14:52:24 [Steven]

s/WH/Wh/

14:52:34 [Steven]

s/label/label?/

14:52:45 [oedipus]

GJR: can use "prolog" in ARIA concept to provide richer, fuller human-understandable information about specifics of choice (if choice available)

14:52:55 [Steven]

Shane: If I have a span

14:53:04 [Steven]

... and associate an access key with it

14:53:21 [Steven]

... and a handler that is invoked by that key

14:53:36 [Steven]

... if the handler has a label, how does that get manifested?

14:53:45 [Steven]

Roland: I don't think it does

14:53:51 [Steven]

Shane: OK, good

14:54:32 [Steven]

Rich: So do we need all 3 in XML Events2?

14:54:45 [Steven]

Roland: Well, I was suggesting su=ynergy with stuff we have already

14:54:50 [Steven]

... you don't HAVE to use them

14:55:01 [Steven]

s/su=/s/

14:55:08 [Steven]

Rich: I see, fine

14:55:21 [Steven]

... I see a way of mapping it to the accessibility API

14:55:53 [Steven]

Gregory: See my comment abouyt 'prologg' in aria

14:55:58 [Steven]

s/yt/t/

14:56:03 [Steven]

s/gg/g/

14:56:08 [Steven]

... above

14:56:33 [ShaneM]

So I think what I need to do is steal the label, hint, and help elements from XForms and put them into XML Events 2?

14:56:33 [Steven]

Rich: If we had a declarative model, like XForms data model, we could do this all a lot easier

14:57:02 [Steven]

Roland: So I'm saying XForms, and therefore XHTML2 has this already, so why not reuse it rather than reinventing stuff

14:57:22 [Steven]

Shand: DO you mean add it to handlers?

14:57:26 [Steven]

Roland: Yes

14:57:32 [Steven]

s/DO?Do/

14:57:33 [oedipus]

+1 add to handlers and reuse in XForms

14:57:36 [Steven]

s/DO/Do/

14:57:38 [alessio]

+1

14:58:13 [Steven]

s/Shand/Shane/

14:58:18 [Steven]

ack oe

14:58:58 [Steven]

Rich: So we'll be using XML Evbents2 in XHTML2?

14:58:58 [ShaneM]

+q

14:59:14 [Steven]

Steven: That is the plan, but there is an overlap with XForms,which still uses XML Events 1

14:59:22 [Steven]

... and we will use XForms 1.1

15:00:10 [Steven]

Rich: XHTML2 is not fully supported in the browser, and there is HTML, we are looking at a dual timeline in the WAI area

15:00:21 [Steven]

Sack Sh

15:00:26 [Steven]

ack sh

15:00:34 [Steven]

Topic: CURIEs

15:00:46 [Steven]

Shane: I would like to go to last call in 2 weeks on CURIEs

15:00:52 [Steven]

... just to push the fight

15:01:24 [Steven]

... we can deal with the comments

15:01:35 [Steven]

Steven: Length?

15:01:43 [Steven]

Roland: TIll late January

15:01:48 [Steven]

... for the ftf

15:01:53 [Steven]

Shane: 6 or 7 weeks

15:02:10 [Steven]

Steven: Any objections

15:02:22 [Steven]

Shane: I will prepare a draft for next week's call

15:02:36 [Steven]

Steven: Will put on the agenda

15:02:50 [Zakim]

-ShaneM

15:02:51 [Zakim]

-Rich

15:02:52 [Zakim]

-Steven

15:02:54 [Zakim]

-Roland

15:02:55 [Zakim]

-Gregory_Rosmaita

15:02:55 [Zakim]

-Alessio

15:02:56 [Zakim]

Team_(xhtml)14:02Z has ended

15:02:57 [Zakim]

Attendees were ShaneM, Steven, Roland, Gregory_Rosmaita, [IBM], Rich, [IPcaller], Yam, Alessio

15:03:05 [Steven]

ACTION: Roland put last call of CURIES on next week's agenda

15:03:17 [Steven]

ACTION: SHane prepare a new draft of CURIES for next week

15:03:24 [Steven]

s/SH/Sh/G

15:03:30 [Steven]

rrsagent, make minutes

15:03:30 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/28-xhtml-minutes.html Steven

15:04:02 [Steven]

Present+Tina(remote)

15:04:06 [Steven]

rrsagent, make minutes

15:04:06 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/28-xhtml-minutes.html Steven

15:08:59 [CSB]

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15:14:08 [CSB]

hi, steve?

15:16:44 [Steven]

Me?

15:16:58 [Steven]

Hi Christina

15:17:07 [Steven]

now I realise who you are :-)

15:17:19 [CSB]

:)

15:17:45 [CSB]

didn't see any traffic and wanted to check that my setup was correct.

15:18:16 [Steven]

Oops. We decided to move the call an hour earlier, for the sake of our Japanese colleagues

15:18:28 [Steven]

Did you not see the traffic around that?

15:18:58 [Steven]

No, 14:00UTC is right

15:19:06 [Steven]

it is now 15:18 UTC

15:19:09 [CSB]

I thought the adgenda time would have taken that into account?

15:19:32 [CSB]

really, my converter said 1400utc was 10 am Atlantic. Ugh

15:20:03 [CSB]

well, maybe we can talk about the best way to give spec feedback?

15:20:34 [Steven]

sure

15:21:40 [CSB]

I was thinking notes corresponding to the section numbers.

15:22:41 [Steven]

Sounds perfect

15:23:04 [Steven]

Every section has it's own URL, so quoting that and then the comments would help the editors

15:23:12 [Steven]

s/it's/its/

15:23:20 [Steven]

(I hate people who do that :-) )

15:23:25 [CSB]

:)

15:23:31 [CSB]

I can do that.

15:23:52 [CSB]

and the correct version of the spec that I should look at is at?

15:25:27 [Steven]

the latest editor's draft

15:25:29 [CSB]

and I think we said before it was better to give feedback in stages

15:25:32 [Steven]

see:

15:25:46 [Steven]

http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Drafts/#xhtml2

15:26:12 [Steven]

In stages makes it easier to digest, that's for sure

15:26:56 [CSB]

Ok--I'll send you something for the next call.

15:27:12 [CSB]

I also want to look at a couple of the groups that are putting out primers

15:27:25 [CSB]

I have those in my motes somewhere from the conference.

15:27:33 [CSB]

notes...

15:28:40 [Steven]

Sure.

15:28:54 [Steven]

Take a look at XForms for HTML Authors too

15:29:02 [Steven]

(which is a primer for XForms)

15:29:23 [Steven]

http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/2003/xforms-for-html-authors.html

15:30:24 [CSB]

ok--thanks. That should keep me busy for a while

15:30:34 [CSB]

have a nice afternoon

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