IRC log of bpwg on 2007-11-20

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:00:09 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #bpwg
15:00:10 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/11/20-bpwg-irc
15:00:11 [trackbot-ng]
RRSAgent, make logs public
15:00:12 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #bpwg
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Zakim, this will be BPWG
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ok, trackbot-ng; I see MWI_BPWG(BCTF)10:00AM scheduled to start now
15:00:16 [trackbot-ng]
Meeting: Mobile Web Best Practices Working Group Teleconference
15:00:18 [trackbot-ng]
Date: 20 November 2007
15:00:25 [jo]
Chair: Jo
15:00:31 [Magnus]
Magnus has joined #bpwg
15:00:31 [jo]
Regrets: Rhys
15:00:55 [jo]
rrsagent, make logs public
15:01:16 [jo]
rrsagent, draft minutes
15:01:16 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/20-bpwg-minutes.html jo
15:01:50 [matt]
zakim, dial matt-voip
15:01:50 [Zakim]
ok, matt; the call is being made
15:01:51 [Zakim]
MWI_BPWG(BCTF)10:00AM has now started
15:01:52 [Zakim]
+Matt
15:02:03 [jo]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg-ct/2007Nov/0004.html
15:02:06 [Magnus]
zakim, code?
15:02:06 [Zakim]
the conference code is 2283 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), Magnus
15:02:52 [Zakim]
+Magnus
15:02:57 [Zakim]
+jo
15:03:20 [SeanP]
SeanP has joined #bpwg
15:03:24 [matt]
zakim, mute me
15:03:24 [Zakim]
Matt should now be muted
15:03:35 [Zakim]
+AndrewSwainston
15:05:06 [Zakim]
+SeanPatterson
15:05:25 [jo]
Scribe: magnus
15:05:55 [Zakim]
+Bryan
15:06:03 [matt]
zakim, who is making noise?
15:06:03 [Bryan]
Bryan has joined #bpwg
15:06:15 [Zakim]
matt, listening for 12 seconds I heard sound from the following: Magnus (16%), jo (79%)
15:06:26 [jo]
zakim, who is here
15:06:26 [Zakim]
jo, you need to end that query with '?'
15:06:32 [jo]
zakim, who is here?
15:06:32 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Matt (muted), Magnus, jo, AndrewSwainston, SeanPatterson, Bryan
15:06:34 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Bryan, SeanP, Magnus, Zakim, RRSAgent, jo, matt, dom, trackbot-ng
15:07:08 [Magnus]
jo: main topics are draft of action 581
15:07:30 [jo]
i/jo:/Topic: Guidelines Draft
15:07:44 [jo]
-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg-ct/2007Nov/0003.html Draft in Text Form
15:08:49 [jo]
Topic: New Member
15:08:57 [Magnus]
andrew: Hycho Gerlach (sp?) from Vodafone Group will be joining the team
15:10:04 [Magnus]
jo: Rhys has announced that he is unable to continue chairing this group due to work duties. Jo is interim chair. Contact Jo to propose others.
15:10:21 [jo]
Topic: Back to Guidlines Doc
15:11:00 [Magnus]
sean: looks like a good start
15:11:31 [Magnus]
jo: will put into pretty format after this meeting
15:11:40 [matt]
zakim, who is making noise?
15:11:47 [Magnus]
... waiting for feedback during this meeting
15:11:51 [Zakim]
matt, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: jo (84%)
15:12:10 [Magnus]
sean: buried preparing for OMA meeting. Will get comments to you by the end of the week.
15:12:37 [Magnus]
andrew: haven't had a chance to review. Will do so over the next few days.
15:12:54 [jo]
s/sean/bryan
15:13:05 [Magnus]
magnus: haven't had a chance to review yet
15:13:38 [jo]
-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg-ct/2007Nov/0003.html Draft in Text Form
15:13:40 [Zakim]
-AndrewSwainston
15:13:48 [Magnus]
jo: let's do a quick runthrough now and then review it again after it has been formatted
15:14:05 [Zakim]
+AndrewSwainston
15:14:23 [Magnus]
... am I capturing the various contriobutions in a fair and accurate way
15:14:33 [matt]
zakim, who is making noise?
15:14:44 [Zakim]
matt, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Magnus (40%), AndrewSwainston (30%), jo (99%)
15:14:46 [Magnus]
... starting with Magnus' document. Significant contribution from Sean and others.
15:14:58 [matt]
zakim, mute andrew
15:14:58 [Zakim]
AndrewSwainston should now be muted
15:15:02 [matt]
zakim, unmute andrew
15:15:02 [Zakim]
AndrewSwainston should no longer be muted
15:15:14 [Magnus]
... make sure that they feel that their contributinos are fairly represented
15:15:16 [matt]
zakim, mute magnus
15:15:16 [Zakim]
Magnus should now be muted
15:15:19 [matt]
zakim, unmute magnus
15:15:19 [Zakim]
Magnus should no longer be muted
15:15:29 [Andrew]
Andrew has joined #bpwg
15:15:55 [jo]
wanted to make sure that the statements of advantages from Aaron and Sean both were reflected in the landscape doc
15:16:33 [Magnus]
jo: haven't followed the original doc headers. Using a more natural flow based on who does what.
15:17:18 [Magnus]
... in reflection of comments, especially from Brian, about behavior of prxies, I hope that that point is fairly reflected
15:17:59 [Magnus]
... it's reasonable that administrative arrangemnts can be part of the behavior of the transforming proxy
15:18:35 [Magnus]
... user interaction can affect the transforming proxy or the server itself. That is not a very big part of what this document says now.
15:18:46 [Magnus]
... If anybody feels differently we need to elaborate that.
15:18:46 [Bryan]
q+
15:18:54 [jo]
ack b
15:19:09 [Magnus]
Brian: there are 2 basic approaches: one inside and one outside the technology
15:19:27 [Magnus]
... focus is on what the user agent can know and not what the user knows
15:19:41 [Magnus]
jo: document focuses on interaction with user-agent
15:19:54 [Magnus]
... there is not much there on the subject of direct interaction with the user
15:20:28 [Magnus]
... The discussion focuses primarily on interaction with a server that is assumed to be adapting or with multiple representations
15:21:01 [Magnus]
... says nothing about redirection to specific mobile content. Looking for contributions here.
15:21:12 [Magnus]
Sean: is that such a big deal?
15:21:36 [Magnus]
... are we talking about CT unaware sites?
15:21:49 [Magnus]
jo: my concern is that if we land on a universal home page
15:22:13 [Magnus]
... and are redirected, a varying header may not be present
15:22:34 [Magnus]
... how should a mobile experience signal that it is a mobile experience?
15:22:57 [Magnus]
Sean: you are looking for direction
15:23:13 [Magnus]
Jo: yes, for instance google.m may not have a varying header
15:23:31 [Magnus]
... the algorithm may not work because the proxy doesn't know what it is reaching
15:23:55 [Magnus]
We need a use-case analysis anyway
15:24:14 [Magnus]
... there are specific sections in the HTTP spec stating how to extend the protocol
15:24:28 [Magnus]
... are we at liberty to introduce new headers?
15:24:45 [Bryan]
q+
15:24:50 [Magnus]
... looking for comments
15:24:56 [jo]
ack b
15:25:02 [Magnus]
Bryan: be careful about addition of new headers
15:25:22 [Magnus]
... content providers may want to becomae transformatino aware
15:25:34 [Magnus]
... is "preserve headers" an example of something new?
15:25:37 [Magnus]
Jo: yes
15:25:46 [Magnus]
... another is "new transform..."
15:26:03 [Magnus]
Bryan: whenever we introduce a new header there are going to be conditions that we need to address
15:26:18 [Magnus]
... it should not break things that depend on header insertion
15:26:33 [jo]
s/new transform/no-transform, allow-reencode
15:26:37 [Magnus]
...within bounds the stuff we add may influence the bahavior of proxies
15:26:48 [matt]
zakim, mute magnus
15:26:48 [Zakim]
Magnus should now be muted
15:26:50 [jo]
zakim, who is noisy
15:26:50 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'who is noisy', jo
15:26:58 [jo]
zakim, who is noisy?
15:26:59 [matt]
zakim, unmute magnus
15:26:59 [Zakim]
Magnus should no longer be muted
15:27:08 [Zakim]
jo, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Magnus (9%), AndrewSwainston (34%), jo (9%), Bryan (15%)
15:27:21 [Magnus]
zakim, mute me
15:27:21 [Zakim]
Magnus should now be muted
15:27:28 [jo]
zakim, mute andrew
15:27:28 [Zakim]
AndrewSwainston should now be muted
15:27:28 [Bryan]
q+
15:27:33 [jo]
ack b
15:27:42 [matt]
zakim, who is making noise?
15:27:52 [Zakim]
matt, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: jo (4%), Bryan (72%)
15:27:56 [Magnus]
Bryan: if we do go down the path of adding headers it is going to be complex to assess the consequneces
15:28:07 [matt]
zakim, who is making noise?
15:28:18 [Zakim]
matt, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: jo (85%), Bryan (6%)
15:28:23 [SeanP]
q+
15:28:25 [Magnus]
Jo: valid point. There are differences in the type of transformations you undertake.
15:28:42 [Magnus]
...you may simply compress files - that's a transformation
15:28:45 [Bryan]
q+
15:28:58 [matt]
zakim, who is making noise?
15:28:59 [Magnus]
... as is removing white space, transcoding images, etc
15:29:07 [Magnus]
... we need something richer than "no-transform".
15:29:12 [Zakim]
matt, listening for 12 seconds I could not identify any sounds
15:29:25 [jo]
ack se
15:29:25 [Magnus]
... We need a richer vocabulary. We need to invent something here.
15:29:43 [Magnus]
Sean: It will be difficult to add new non-x-headers
15:29:46 [Andrew]
Is this what the use of Vary tag could do?
15:30:01 [Magnus]
... are we talking x-headers ?
15:30:06 [Magnus]
Jo: there are 2 different aspects
15:30:11 [Magnus]
.. 1) inventing new headers
15:30:19 [Magnus]
... 2) adding new value for existing headers
15:30:35 [Magnus]
... extending cache-control headers seems less extreme
15:30:42 [Magnus]
... otherwise we have rather blunt stuff
15:31:03 [Magnus]
Sean: you think it's more about adding stuff to cache-control?
15:31:07 [Magnus]
Jo: yes, that's right
15:31:23 [Magnus]
... HTTP spec provides an example of how to extend cache-control header
15:31:35 [Magnus]
... however, it's an interpretation question
15:31:47 [Magnus]
Sean: other headers that are extensible?
15:31:56 [Magnus]
Jo: It's thje obvious candidate
15:32:14 [Magnus]
... It's backward compatible.
15:32:14 [jo]
q?
15:32:18 [jo]
ack b
15:32:38 [Magnus]
Bryan: I think we might need to do is provide some introductory remarks
15:32:52 [Magnus]
... transfer encoding is not in scope
15:32:59 [Magnus]
Jo: I agree
15:33:06 [jo]
A proxy MUST NOT modify or add any of the following fields in a message that contains the no-transform cache-control directive, or in any request: - Content-Encoding - Content-Range - Content-Type
15:33:20 [jo]
s/I agree/I wish I could agree/
15:33:34 [Magnus]
Bryan: there's a difference between content- and transfer-encoding
15:33:38 [Magnus]
... we need to explain this
15:34:01 [Magnus]
... be careful that we don't disable all optimization of HTTP
15:34:24 [Magnus]
Jo: that is what we are tryiong to do
15:34:36 [jo]
q?
15:34:40 [Magnus]
... we need to be careful. Point taken.
15:35:10 [Magnus]
... The thing we need to revisit is see what people think
15:35:20 [Magnus]
... Can we add value without re-inventing things.
15:35:39 [jo]
ACTION: JO to raise an issue on how useful this spec will be without HTTP extensions of some form
15:35:39 [trackbot-ng]
Created ACTION-602 - Raise an issue on how useful this spec will be without HTTP extensions of some form [on Jo Rabin - due 2007-11-27].
15:35:54 [Magnus]
Jo: please rview the text with this in mind.
15:36:01 [Magnus]
... RFC 2295
15:36:25 [Magnus]
... Has anybody read this? It's experimental but implemented in Apache as a module.
15:36:38 [Magnus]
... We might consider borrowing from this.
15:36:48 [Magnus]
... We can use some of the ideas.
15:36:56 [Magnus]
... They are trying to do similar things.
15:37:10 [Magnus]
... There are possibilities here. Keep this in mind while reading the text.
15:37:18 [Andrew]
q+
15:37:35 [Magnus]
... There is an extensive list of contributions to this text.
15:37:41 [jo]
ack and
15:37:42 [Andrew]
Zarkim, unmute me
15:38:01 [Magnus]
Andrew: I wonder whether you can give us a quick synopsis of RFC 2295?
15:38:46 [Magnus]
... We are interested in the fact of that the descriptions can include intended media types
15:39:00 [Magnus]
... i.e. "this is intended for media type handheld" in the URI
15:39:13 [Magnus]
... Our guess is that it has some degree of accpetance in the mainstream.
15:39:26 [Magnus]
... Feature negotiations are not implemented but worth reading.
15:39:54 [Magnus]
... Shows what people have thought in this area. Features are things like "what language?", etc
15:40:27 [Magnus]
Jo: The introduction is moderately readable.
15:40:39 [Magnus]
... It explains the conmtext.
15:40:54 [Magnus]
... At this point, what remains is the text as proposed.
15:41:03 [Magnus]
... Is there any point in running through it now?
15:41:15 [Magnus]
... Does anybody want to go through the document?
15:41:50 [Magnus]
Jo: Let's do that.
15:42:03 [Magnus]
... What is open on the probloem statement?
15:42:13 [jo]
Topic: Issues and Actions
15:42:15 [Magnus]
s/probloem/problem/
15:42:28 [jo]
s/Let's do that/people seem to want to read it first
15:42:59 [jo]
-> http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/products/11Open Issues and Actions on Problem Statement
15:44:15 [Magnus]
zakim, umute me
15:44:15 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'umute me', Magnus
15:44:20 [Magnus]
zakim, unmute me
15:44:20 [Zakim]
Magnus should no longer be muted
15:44:42 [jo]
http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/products/11
15:45:01 [jo]
Close ISSUE-221
15:45:37 [Magnus]
Close ACTION-563
15:45:54 [Magnus]
Close ACTION-564
15:46:06 [Magnus]
Close ACTION-565
15:46:38 [Magnus]
Jo: on the guidelines we have an extensive list of actions and issues
15:46:49 [jo]
-> http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/products/12 Open Issues and Actions on Guidelines
15:47:39 [SeanP]
SeanP has joined #bpwg
15:48:37 [jo]
ISSUE-187 Leave opne
15:48:43 [jo]
ISSUE-220 Leave Open
15:49:20 [jo]
ISSUE-222 :eave Open, people should study the TAG finding
15:49:30 [jo]
s/opne/open/
15:49:36 [jo]
s/:e/Le/
15:50:14 [jo]
ISSUE-223, ISSUE-224 LEave Open
15:50:30 [Magnus]
Close ACTION-540
15:52:33 [Magnus]
Close ACTION-551
15:53:22 [Magnus]
Close ACTION-552
15:53:53 [Magnus]
Close ACTION-558
15:54:13 [Magnus]
Close ACTION-566
15:54:41 [Magnus]
Close ACTION-575
15:55:42 [Magnus]
ACTION-581 Leave Open
15:55:56 [jo]
Topic: AOB
15:56:30 [Magnus]
Jo: this call continues to be weekly
15:56:38 [Magnus]
... On Tuesdays.
15:56:59 [Magnus]
... Rhys has announced his departure from the task force on the email list.
15:57:12 [Magnus]
... Who is a good candidate to take over the chair?
15:57:26 [Zakim]
-jo
15:57:34 [jo]
[thanks to Magnus for scribing]
15:57:37 [matt]
zakim, unmute me
15:57:37 [Zakim]
Matt should no longer be muted
15:57:38 [Zakim]
-SeanPatterson
15:57:39 [Zakim]
-Bryan
15:57:45 [Zakim]
-Magnus
15:57:46 [jo]
rrsagent, draft minutes
15:57:46 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/20-bpwg-minutes.html jo
15:57:48 [Zakim]
-Matt
15:57:50 [Zakim]
-AndrewSwainston
15:57:51 [Zakim]
MWI_BPWG(BCTF)10:00AM has ended
15:57:52 [Zakim]
Attendees were Matt, Magnus, jo, AndrewSwainston, SeanPatterson, Bryan
15:58:06 [jo]
rrsagent, draft minutes
15:58:06 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/20-bpwg-minutes.html jo
15:59:05 [jo]
s/I am capturing/I am trying to capture/
16:00:11 [jo]
s/accurate way/accurate way?
16:01:36 [jo]
s/there are specific/Jo: there are specific/
16:03:23 [jo]
s/handheld" in the URI/handheld"
16:04:32 [jo]
rrsagent, draft minutes
16:04:32 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/20-bpwg-minutes.html jo
16:05:19 [jo]
s/in the URI//
16:05:25 [jo]
rrsagent, draft minutes
16:05:25 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/20-bpwg-minutes.html jo
16:06:20 [jo]
zakim, bye
16:06:21 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #bpwg
16:06:31 [jo]
rrsagent, draft minutes
16:06:31 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/20-bpwg-minutes.html jo
16:06:42 [jo]
rrsagent, bye
16:06:42 [RRSAgent]
I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/20-bpwg-actions.rdf :
16:06:42 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: JO to raise an issue on how useful this spec will be without HTTP extensions of some form [1]
16:06:42 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/20-bpwg-irc#T15-35-39