15:00:09 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #bpwg
15:00:10 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/11/20-bpwg-irc
15:00:11 <trackbot-ng> RRSAgent, make logs public
15:00:12 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #bpwg
15:00:14 <trackbot-ng> Zakim, this will be BPWG
15:00:14 <Zakim> ok, trackbot-ng; I see MWI_BPWG(BCTF)10:00AM scheduled to start now
15:00:16 <trackbot-ng> Meeting: Mobile Web Best Practices Working Group Teleconference
15:00:18 <trackbot-ng> Date: 20 November 2007
15:00:25 <jo> Chair: Jo
15:00:31 <Magnus> Magnus has joined #bpwg
15:00:31 <jo> Regrets: Rhys
15:00:55 <jo> rrsagent, make logs public
15:01:16 <jo> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:01:16 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/20-bpwg-minutes.html jo
15:01:50 <matt> zakim, dial matt-voip
15:01:50 <Zakim> ok, matt; the call is being made
15:01:51 <Zakim> MWI_BPWG(BCTF)10:00AM has now started
15:01:52 <Zakim> +Matt
15:02:03 <jo> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg-ct/2007Nov/0004.html
15:02:06 <Magnus> zakim, code?
15:02:06 <Zakim> the conference code is 2283 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), Magnus
15:02:52 <Zakim> +Magnus
15:02:57 <Zakim> +jo
15:03:20 <SeanP> SeanP has joined #bpwg
15:03:24 <matt> zakim, mute me
15:03:24 <Zakim> Matt should now be muted
15:03:35 <Zakim> +AndrewSwainston
15:05:06 <Zakim> +SeanPatterson
15:05:25 <jo> Scribe: magnus
15:05:55 <Zakim> +Bryan
15:06:03 <matt> zakim, who is making noise?
15:06:03 <Bryan> Bryan has joined #bpwg
15:06:15 <Zakim> matt, listening for 12 seconds I heard sound from the following: Magnus (16%), jo (79%)
15:06:26 <jo> zakim, who is here
15:06:26 <Zakim> jo, you need to end that query with '?'
15:06:32 <jo> zakim, who is here?
15:06:32 <Zakim> On the phone I see Matt (muted), Magnus, jo, AndrewSwainston, SeanPatterson, Bryan
15:06:34 <Zakim> On IRC I see Bryan, SeanP, Magnus, Zakim, RRSAgent, jo, matt, dom, trackbot-ng
15:07:08 <Magnus> jo: main topics are draft of action 581
15:07:30 <jo> i/jo:/Topic: Guidelines Draft
15:07:44 <jo> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg-ct/2007Nov/0003.html Draft in Text Form
15:08:49 <jo> Topic: New Member
15:08:57 <Magnus> andrew: Hycho Gerlach (sp?) from Vodafone Group will be joining the team
15:10:04 <Magnus> jo: Rhys has announced that he is unable to continue chairing this group due to work duties. Jo is interim chair. Contact Jo to propose others.
15:10:21 <jo> Topic: Back to Guidlines Doc
15:11:00 <Magnus> sean: looks like a good start
15:11:31 <Magnus> jo: will put into pretty format after this meeting
15:11:40 <matt> zakim, who is making noise?
15:11:47 <Magnus> ... waiting for feedback during this meeting
15:11:51 <Zakim> matt, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: jo (84%)
15:12:10 <Magnus> sean: buried preparing for OMA meeting. Will get comments to you by the end of the week.
15:12:37 <Magnus> andrew: haven't had a chance to review. Will do so over the next few days.
15:12:54 <jo> s/sean/bryan
15:13:05 <Magnus> magnus: haven't had a chance to review yet
15:13:38 <jo> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg-ct/2007Nov/0003.html Draft in Text Form
15:13:40 <Zakim> -AndrewSwainston
15:13:48 <Magnus> jo: let's do a quick runthrough now and then review it again after it has been formatted
15:14:05 <Zakim> +AndrewSwainston
15:14:23 <Magnus> ... am I capturing the various contriobutions in a fair and accurate way
15:14:33 <matt> zakim, who is making noise?
15:14:44 <Zakim> matt, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Magnus (40%), AndrewSwainston (30%), jo (99%)
15:14:46 <Magnus> ... starting with Magnus' document. Significant contribution from Sean and others.
15:14:58 <matt> zakim, mute andrew
15:14:58 <Zakim> AndrewSwainston should now be muted
15:15:02 <matt> zakim, unmute andrew
15:15:02 <Zakim> AndrewSwainston should no longer be muted
15:15:14 <Magnus> ... make sure that they feel that their contributinos are fairly represented
15:15:16 <matt> zakim, mute magnus
15:15:16 <Zakim> Magnus should now be muted
15:15:19 <matt> zakim, unmute magnus
15:15:19 <Zakim> Magnus should no longer be muted
15:15:29 <Andrew> Andrew has joined #bpwg
15:15:55 <jo> wanted to make sure that the statements of advantages from Aaron and Sean both were reflected in the landscape doc
15:16:33 <Magnus> jo: haven't followed the original doc headers. Using a more natural flow based on who does what.
15:17:18 <Magnus> ... in reflection of comments, especially from Brian, about behavior of prxies, I hope that that point is fairly reflected
15:17:59 <Magnus> ... it's reasonable that administrative arrangemnts can be part of the behavior of the transforming proxy
15:18:35 <Magnus> ... user interaction can affect the transforming proxy or the server itself. That is not a very big part of what this document says now.
15:18:46 <Magnus> ... If anybody feels differently we need to elaborate that.
15:18:46 <Bryan> q+
15:18:54 <jo> ack b
15:19:09 <Magnus> Brian: there are 2 basic approaches: one inside and one outside the technology
15:19:27 <Magnus> ... focus is on what the user agent can know and not what the user knows
15:19:41 <Magnus> jo: document focuses on interaction with user-agent
15:19:54 <Magnus> ... there is not much there on the subject of direct interaction with the user
15:20:28 <Magnus> ... The discussion focuses primarily on interaction with a server that is assumed to be adapting or with multiple representations
15:21:01 <Magnus> ... says nothing about redirection to specific mobile content. Looking for contributions here.
15:21:12 <Magnus> Sean: is that such a big deal?
15:21:36 <Magnus> ... are we talking about CT unaware sites?
15:21:49 <Magnus> jo: my concern is that if we land on a universal home page
15:22:13 <Magnus> ... and are redirected, a varying header may not be present
15:22:34 <Magnus> ... how should a mobile experience signal that it is a mobile experience?
15:22:57 <Magnus> Sean: you are looking for direction
15:23:13 <Magnus> Jo: yes, for instance google.m may not have a varying header
15:23:31 <Magnus> ... the algorithm may not work because the proxy doesn't know what it is reaching
15:23:55 <Magnus> We need a use-case analysis anyway
15:24:14 <Magnus> ... there are specific sections in the HTTP spec stating how to extend the protocol
15:24:28 <Magnus> ... are we at liberty to introduce new headers?
15:24:45 <Bryan> q+
15:24:50 <Magnus> ... looking for comments
15:24:56 <jo> ack b
15:25:02 <Magnus> Bryan: be careful about addition of new headers
15:25:22 <Magnus> ... content providers may want to becomae transformatino aware
15:25:34 <Magnus> ... is "preserve headers" an example of something new?
15:25:37 <Magnus> Jo: yes
15:25:46 <Magnus> ... another is "new transform..."
15:26:03 <Magnus> Bryan: whenever we introduce a new header there are going to be conditions that we need to address
15:26:18 <Magnus> ... it should not break things that depend on header insertion
15:26:33 <jo> s/new transform/no-transform, allow-reencode
15:26:37 <Magnus> ...within bounds the stuff we add may influence the bahavior of proxies
15:26:48 <matt> zakim, mute magnus
15:26:48 <Zakim> Magnus should now be muted
15:26:50 <jo> zakim, who is noisy
15:26:50 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is noisy', jo
15:26:58 <jo> zakim, who is noisy?
15:26:59 <matt> zakim, unmute magnus
15:26:59 <Zakim> Magnus should no longer be muted
15:27:08 <Zakim> jo, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Magnus (9%), AndrewSwainston (34%), jo (9%), Bryan (15%)
15:27:21 <Magnus> zakim, mute me
15:27:21 <Zakim> Magnus should now be muted
15:27:28 <jo> zakim, mute andrew
15:27:28 <Zakim> AndrewSwainston should now be muted
15:27:28 <Bryan> q+
15:27:33 <jo> ack b
15:27:42 <matt> zakim, who is making noise?
15:27:52 <Zakim> matt, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: jo (4%), Bryan (72%)
15:27:56 <Magnus> Bryan: if we do go down the path of adding headers it is going to be complex to assess the consequneces
15:28:07 <matt> zakim, who is making noise?
15:28:18 <Zakim> matt, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: jo (85%), Bryan (6%)
15:28:23 <SeanP> q+
15:28:25 <Magnus> Jo: valid point. There are differences in the type of transformations you undertake.
15:28:42 <Magnus> ...you may simply compress files - that's a transformation
15:28:45 <Bryan> q+
15:28:58 <matt> zakim, who is making noise?
15:28:59 <Magnus> ... as is removing white space, transcoding images, etc
15:29:07 <Magnus> ... we need something richer than "no-transform".
15:29:12 <Zakim> matt, listening for 12 seconds I could not identify any sounds
15:29:25 <jo> ack se
15:29:25 <Magnus> ... We need a richer vocabulary. We need to invent something here.
15:29:43 <Magnus> Sean: It will be difficult to add new non-x-headers
15:29:46 <Andrew> Is this what the use of Vary tag could do?
15:30:01 <Magnus> ... are we talking x-headers ?
15:30:06 <Magnus> Jo: there are 2 different aspects
15:30:11 <Magnus> .. 1) inventing new headers
15:30:19 <Magnus> ... 2) adding new value for existing headers
15:30:35 <Magnus> ... extending cache-control headers seems less extreme
15:30:42 <Magnus> ... otherwise we have rather blunt stuff
15:31:03 <Magnus> Sean: you think it's more about adding stuff to cache-control?
15:31:07 <Magnus> Jo: yes, that's right
15:31:23 <Magnus> ... HTTP spec provides an example of how to extend cache-control header
15:31:35 <Magnus> ... however, it's an interpretation question
15:31:47 <Magnus> Sean: other headers that are extensible?
15:31:56 <Magnus> Jo: It's thje obvious candidate
15:32:14 <Magnus> ... It's backward compatible.
15:32:14 <jo> q?
15:32:18 <jo> ack b
15:32:38 <Magnus> Bryan: I think we might need to do is provide some introductory remarks
15:32:52 <Magnus> ... transfer encoding is not in scope
15:32:59 <Magnus> Jo: I agree
15:33:06 <jo> A  proxy MUST NOT modify or add any of the following fields in a    message that contains the no-transform cache-control directive, or in    any request:        - Content-Encoding        - Content-Range        - Content-Type 
15:33:20 <jo> s/I agree/I wish I could agree/
15:33:34 <Magnus> Bryan: there's a difference between content- and transfer-encoding
15:33:38 <Magnus> ... we need to explain this
15:34:01 <Magnus> ... be careful that we don't disable all optimization of HTTP
15:34:24 <Magnus> Jo: that is what we are tryiong to do
15:34:36 <jo> q?
15:34:40 <Magnus> ... we need to be careful. Point taken.
15:35:10 <Magnus> ... The thing we need to revisit is see what people think
15:35:20 <Magnus> ... Can we add value without re-inventing things.
15:35:39 <jo> ACTION: JO to raise an issue on how useful this spec will be without HTTP extensions of some form
15:35:39 <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-602 - Raise an issue on how useful this spec will be without HTTP extensions of some form [on Jo Rabin - due 2007-11-27].
15:35:54 <Magnus> Jo: please rview the text with this in mind.
15:36:01 <Magnus> ... RFC 2295
15:36:25 <Magnus> ... Has anybody read this? It's experimental but implemented in Apache as a module.
15:36:38 <Magnus> ... We might consider borrowing from this.
15:36:48 <Magnus> ... We can use some of the ideas.
15:36:56 <Magnus> ... They are trying to do similar things.
15:37:10 <Magnus> ... There are possibilities here. Keep this in mind while reading the text.
15:37:18 <Andrew> q+
15:37:35 <Magnus> ... There is an extensive list of contributions to this text.
15:37:41 <jo> ack and
15:37:42 <Andrew> Zarkim, unmute me
15:38:01 <Magnus> Andrew: I wonder whether you can give us a quick synopsis of RFC 2295?
15:38:25 <Magnus> Jo: The now legendary RFC 2295 discusses a number of things. Content negotiation, variants, ...
15:38:46 <Magnus> ... We are interested in the fact of that the descriptions can include intended media types
15:39:00 <Magnus> ... i.e. "this is intended for media type handheld" in the URI
15:39:13 <Magnus> ... Our guess is that it has some degree of accpetance in the mainstream.
15:39:26 <Magnus> ... Feature negotiations are not implemented but worth reading.
15:39:54 <Magnus> ... Shows what people have thought in this area. Features are things like "what language?", etc
15:40:27 <Magnus> Jo: The introduction is moderately readable.
15:40:39 <Magnus> ... It explains the conmtext.
15:40:54 <Magnus> ... At this point, what remains is the text as proposed.
15:41:03 <Magnus> ... Is there any point in running through it now?
15:41:15 <Magnus> ... Does anybody want to go through the document?
15:41:50 <Magnus> Jo: Let's do that.
15:42:03 <Magnus> ... What is open on the probloem statement?
15:42:13 <jo> Topic: Issues and Actions
15:42:15 <Magnus> s/probloem/problem/
15:42:28 <jo> s/Let's do that/people seem to want to read it first
15:42:59 <jo> -> http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/products/11Open Issues and Actions on Problem Statement
15:44:15 <Magnus> zakim, umute me
15:44:15 <Zakim> I don't understand 'umute me', Magnus
15:44:20 <Magnus> zakim, unmute me
15:44:20 <Zakim> Magnus should no longer be muted
15:44:42 <jo> http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/products/11
15:45:01 <jo> Close ISSUE-221
15:45:37 <Magnus> Close ACTION-563
15:45:54 <Magnus> Close ACTION-564
15:46:06 <Magnus> Close ACTION-565
15:46:38 <Magnus> Jo: on the guidelines we have an extensive list of actions and issues
15:46:49 <jo> -> http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/products/12 Open Issues and Actions on Guidelines
15:47:39 <SeanP> SeanP has joined #bpwg
15:48:37 <jo> ISSUE-187 Leave opne
15:48:43 <jo> ISSUE-220 Leave Open
15:49:20 <jo> ISSUE-222 :eave Open, people should study the TAG finding
15:49:30 <jo> s/opne/open/
15:49:36 <jo> s/:e/Le/
15:50:14 <jo> ISSUE-223, ISSUE-224 LEave Open
15:50:30 <Magnus> Close ACTION-540
15:52:33 <Magnus> Close ACTION-551
15:53:22 <Magnus> Close ACTION-552
15:53:53 <Magnus> Close ACTION-558
15:54:13 <Magnus> Close ACTION-566
15:54:41 <Magnus> Close ACTION-575
15:55:42 <Magnus> ACTION-581 Leave Open
15:55:56 <jo> Topic: AOB
15:56:30 <Magnus> Jo: this call continues to be weekly
15:56:38 <Magnus> ... On Tuesdays.
15:56:59 <Magnus> ... Rhys has announced his departure from the task force on the email list.
15:57:12 <Magnus> ... Who is a good candidate to take over the chair?
15:57:26 <Zakim> -jo
15:57:34 <jo> [thanks to Magnus for scribing]
15:57:37 <matt> zakim, unmute me
15:57:37 <Zakim> Matt should no longer be muted
15:57:38 <Zakim> -SeanPatterson
15:57:39 <Zakim> -Bryan
15:57:45 <Zakim> -Magnus
15:57:46 <jo> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:57:46 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/20-bpwg-minutes.html jo
15:57:48 <Zakim> -Matt
15:57:50 <Zakim> -AndrewSwainston
15:57:51 <Zakim> MWI_BPWG(BCTF)10:00AM has ended
15:57:52 <Zakim> Attendees were Matt, Magnus, jo, AndrewSwainston, SeanPatterson, Bryan
15:58:06 <jo> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:58:06 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/20-bpwg-minutes.html jo
15:59:05 <jo> s/I am capturing/I am trying to capture/
16:00:11 <jo> s/accurate way/accurate way?
16:01:36 <jo> s/there are specific/Jo: there are specific/
16:03:23 <jo> s/handheld" in the     URI/handheld"
16:04:32 <jo> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:04:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/20-bpwg-minutes.html jo
16:05:19 <jo> s/in the URI//
16:05:25 <jo> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:05:25 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/20-bpwg-minutes.html jo
16:06:20 <jo> zakim, bye
16:06:21 <Zakim> Zakim has left #bpwg
16:06:31 <jo> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:06:31 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/20-bpwg-minutes.html jo
16:06:42 <jo> rrsagent, bye
16:06:42 <RRSAgent> I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/20-bpwg-actions.rdf :
16:06:42 <RRSAgent> ACTION: JO to raise an issue on how useful this spec will be without HTTP extensions of some form [1]
16:06:42 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/20-bpwg-irc#T15-35-39