18:30:50 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #xhtml
18:30:50 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/11/08-xhtml-irc
18:31:00 <Steven> rrsagent, make log public
18:34:16 <Rich> Rich has joined #xhtml
18:34:21 <Steven> Scribe: Steven
18:35:00 <Steven> Meeting: FtF XHTML2 WG, Cambridge, MA, USA
18:35:07 <Steven> Chair: Roland
18:35:32 <Steven> Present: Steven, Rich, Roland, Raman
18:35:48 <Steven> Topic: Agenda
18:35:56 <Steven> rrsagent, pointer?
18:35:56 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2007/11/08-xhtml-irc#T18-35-56
18:36:04 <Steven> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2007/11/08-xhtml-irc#T18-35-56
18:36:14 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
18:36:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/08-xhtml-minutes.html Steven
18:37:48 <Roland_> Roland_ has joined #xhtml
18:38:05 <Tina> Tina has joined #xhtml
18:39:18 <Tina> Good [insert suitable time of day here], everyone.
18:39:25 <Steven> Present+Tina
18:39:28 <Steven> Hi there Tina
18:39:34 <Steven> We are just starting
18:39:42 <Steven> Agenda topics:
18:39:47 <Steven> * Strategy
18:39:52 <Steven> * Meetings
18:39:55 <Steven> * Documents
18:43:27 <raman> raman has joined #xhtml
18:46:04 <Steven> Topic: Strategy
18:47:54 <Steven> Roland: The group is called XHTML2, and our primary delivery is XHTML2
18:48:00 <Steven> ... what are we trying to achieve?
18:48:14 <Steven> ... I want to suggest we focus on authoring, and not rendering
18:48:30 <Steven> ... and look at a pipeline from authoring to rendering on lots of devices
18:48:48 <Steven> ... with personalization, device independence
18:48:51 <Steven> ... etc
18:49:05 <Steven> ... being applied from the authored materials to the user experience
18:50:37 <Steven> Steven: Now that we have the split and the chartering behind us, it gives us the opportunity now to focus on the h\igher-level stuff
18:50:48 <Steven> ... and HTML can still remain the assembly language of the web
18:50:57 <Steven> ... and we don't have to worry about it
18:51:07 <Steven> Raman: Like we did with XForms
18:51:25 <Steven> Roland: We don't need to think of the page as the unit of a document either
18:51:31 <Steven> ... with mashup iedas in mind
18:52:05 <Steven> s/iedas/ideas/
18:53:31 <Tina> I believe we should focus on creating a language with which structure and semantic interpretation can be encoded - rendering ought be a non-topic in achieving this goal.
18:53:36 <Steven> Raman: I would like to avoid SOAP and WSDL if possible in the solution space
18:53:53 <Steven> I agree Tina
18:54:10 <Steven> Raman: So let us focus on authoring, delivering clean stuff
18:54:50 <Steven> Roland: If we consider our world supporting mashup styles, whatever our unit of work is, we can consider the broader ecosystem such as security
18:55:41 <Steven> Roland: It allows us to focus on *intent*, and therefore we can ditch h1-h6 for example, and just use the context
18:56:10 <Steven> ... and remove some of the clutter that is still in the XHTML2 spec for historical reasons
18:56:25 <Steven> Steven: Sounds excellent
18:56:35 <Steven> Roland: But we are still talking about compound documents
18:56:45 <Steven> ... if we need mathml, svg, it is still composable
18:57:25 <Steven> ... and one other thing, I would like us to try and deal with the namespace ugliness
18:57:56 <Steven> Raman: Given that XML Schema doesn't define the root element, we could actually define some new root elements
18:58:11 <Steven> ... such as <web>
18:58:21 <Steven> ... we can avoid XML Schema
18:58:28 <Steven> ... we can alias names where needed
18:58:42 <Steven> ... to make authoring easier
18:59:00 <Steven> ROland: THis is a distinct subject in its own right
18:59:06 <Steven> s/RO/Ro/
18:59:11 <Steven> s/TH/Th/
18:59:35 <Steven> Raman: We need to protect the author from the ugliness
19:00:13 <Steven> Rich: I was talking with Dave Raggett about components
19:00:24 <Steven> Roland: We need to talk about levels of abstraction
19:02:00 <Steven> Steven: I think we need to consider XBL at some level as part of the infrastructure for XHTML2
19:02:07 <ShaneM> ShaneM has joined #xhtml
19:02:34 <Steven> Welcome Shane
19:02:38 <Steven> Present+Shane
19:02:54 <Steven> skype available if you want SHane
19:02:59 <Steven> rrsagent, pointer?
19:02:59 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2007/11/08-xhtml-irc#T19-02-59
19:03:17 <Steven> ok
19:04:04 <Steven> Raman: If we do the authoring layer cleaner, then we can later use XBLn to implement
19:05:19 <Steven> Rich: Can you still render to the web?
19:05:43 <Steven> Steven: Yes, in fact ebay.co.uk are already soing this. There are at least two companies using XHTML2 to adapt to devices
19:07:00 <Steven> Rich: And can we add time?
19:08:42 <Steven> Steven: I went to a meeting with SYMM this week, and they demo'd a page with XForms and SMIL working together with the Forms driving the SMIL presentation
19:08:51 <Steven> ... that's the advantage of the W3C architecture
19:09:18 <Steven> ... SYMM are the domain experts in time, and we can use thier stuff with ours
19:09:29 <Steven> Rich: THis makes our stuff much more useful
19:09:37 <Steven> ... because it makes it much easier to write to
19:09:41 <Steven> s/TH?Th/
19:10:07 <Steven> s/TH/Th/
19:11:27 <Steven> Steven: Mark Birbeck has recently been suggesting making an XHTML version of XBL, with xhtml as the container
19:11:36 <Steven> Raman: Then we could use XPath selectors
19:11:51 <Steven> Steven: Which fits better into our architecture, since we use XPath already
19:17:13 <Steven> Roland: So we are going to get over our bipolar disorder
19:17:48 <Steven> Steven: Well we have been trying to make everyone happy in a bimodal world
19:17:59 <Steven> ... and you end up making everyone unhappy
19:18:16 <Steven> ... now we can concentrate on being clean
19:18:47 <Steven> Roland: We need a technical strategy, but also a communication strategy
19:19:40 <Steven> Rich: Change naming?
19:19:45 <Steven> ROland: Maybe in time
19:19:49 <Steven> s/RO/Ro/
19:20:36 <Steven> Rich: We need to talk to companies to ask what they need
19:20:53 <Steven> Raman: We must avoid making it too big
19:21:09 <Steven> ... talk 1-1 with them is fine though
19:21:41 <ShaneM> are there people who think that the current XHTML 2 strategy is NOT sufficient?  XForms + RDFa + cleaner, more consistent markup? 
19:22:09 <ShaneM> as far as I am concerned, XHTML 2 in its current form is ready to go. 
19:22:28 <Steven> I think we can publish
19:22:39 <Tina> We must also be careful regarding talking to companies. Listening to their ideas, certainly, but not to include willy-nilly whatever they might desire.
19:22:43 <Steven> but we are discussing cleaning it up even more than it is
19:22:54 <Steven> +1 on that Tina
19:22:56 <ShaneM> okay.  I ahve no problem with that.  
19:23:11 <ShaneM> sorry I missed the earlier discussion.  my week is pretty messed up 
19:23:26 <Steven> We are going to talk about publishing strategies later
19:24:30 <Tina> Will we include name-concepts in that discussion? It really is needed.
19:24:41 <Steven> Rich: Why did EBay go with this?
19:24:49 <Steven> Roland: SIngle authoring
19:24:54 <Steven> s/SI/Si/
19:25:39 <Steven> Steven: Time magazine use XHTML2 as well for similar reasons
19:26:04 <Steven> ... they have one central format that they can extract the information from to deliver in as many other forms as they like
19:28:20 <Steven> Raman: Let's take some use cases, and look to see if anyone thought we needed to add anything, but also what we can now safely take out
19:28:46 <Steven> Rich: There is also Dita
19:28:48 <ShaneM> lots of people have asked for hr back 
19:28:53 <Steven> Roland: A publishing format
19:29:01 <ShaneM> and br, fwiw. 
19:29:40 <Steven> Name concepts Tina?
19:30:54 <myakura_> myakura_ has joined #xhtml
19:32:19 <Steven> Roland: There are two directions, more redical, and less radical.
19:32:45 <Steven> ... The less radical is XHTML 1,2, which is the combination of what we have now, 
19:32:52 <Steven> ... allowing XForms in 1.1 for instance
19:32:59 <Steven> ... rdfa, role etc
19:33:10 <Steven> s/redical/radical
19:33:46 <Steven> Rich: I'd like to show these slides on Dita (which is being standardised by OASIS)
19:33:58 <Steven> [no URL I'm afraid, sorry people off line]
19:34:05 <Roland_> http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/tc_home.php?wg_abbrev=dita
19:34:31 <Steven> Rich: They have topic maps in the language
19:35:16 <Steven> Raman: We need to keep our focus sharp, so we shouldn't add topic maps, but let people import them if they want
19:36:13 <Steven> Steven: But looking at this slide, I see something that you can do with RDFa
19:36:20 <Rich> Topics:
19:36:20 <Rich> <topic id=“abc”>	<title>My topic</title>	<body><p>And so on</p></body></topic>
19:36:20 <Rich> Maps:
19:36:20 <Rich> <map id=“xyz”>	<topicref href=“abc.dita#abc”>		<topicref href=“def.dita#def”/>	</topicref></map>
19:36:20 <Rich> Specialization to create new types of topics and maps:
19:36:21 <Rich> <topic> ? <task>
19:36:23 <Rich> <map> ? <bookmap>
19:36:25 <Rich> Defaulted class attribute maps specialized elements to ancestor ones:
19:36:27 <Rich> <context class=“- topic/section task/context”>Here’s why</context
19:36:40 <Steven> ... a span with rel="topicref" and the href
19:36:49 <Steven> ... done deal, that's the glory of RDFa
19:37:26 <oedipus> oedipus has joined #xhtml
19:37:35 <Steven> Present+Oedipus
19:37:38 <Steven> Welcome oedipus
19:37:49 <oedipus> just got your invitation -- thanks!
19:37:59 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
19:37:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/08-xhtml-minutes.html Steven
19:38:05 <oedipus> thanks
19:38:08 <Steven> you might want to see the minutes to catch up
19:38:38 <Tina> Steven: yes. At the moment there exist confusion as to the *name* of the thing - aka XHTML 2. Sorry I'm late.
19:38:45 <oedipus> that's what i'm doing
19:39:08 <Steven> Yes Tina, that is a future discussion, but we're leaving it as-is for the time being
19:39:37 <Tina> That's fine, as long as the discussion is had. The way it is going now will lead to some chaos, if earlier experiences is any indication.
19:41:00 <Steven> [Rich's slides even mention RDFa as a potential aplicaiton]
19:41:09 <alessio> alessio has joined #xhtml
19:41:20 <Steven> s/aplicaiton/application
19:41:22 <Steven> lol
19:41:26 <Steven> Welcome Alessio!
19:41:30 <Steven> Present+Alessio
19:41:38 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
19:41:38 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/08-xhtml-minutes.html Steven
19:41:49 <oedipus> shane, reading minutes shouldn't the horizontality or verticality of a separator be a styling issue / controlled by stylesheets
19:42:01 <oedipus> no need to bring back HR
19:42:11 <alessio> hi all, I'm on a train :)
19:42:12 <alessio> so connection could be not stable
19:42:43 <Steven> ok
19:43:15 <ShaneM> oedipus: of coruse it should.  people asked about other extensions.  Just playing along. 
19:44:58 <oedipus> RDFa is very attractive to a few of us in PF (Protocols & Formats), not just RichS
19:45:07 <Steven> :-)
19:45:27 <Steven> It got some good comments yesterday at the TP as well
19:45:37 <ShaneM> hell, I even have uses for it.   
19:45:42 <oedipus> lol
19:45:48 <ShaneM> its a sign of the apocalypse 
19:45:59 <oedipus> hope it's only the sixth seal
19:47:28 <Steven> Roland: Delivery context is an important part of what we need to do for adaptation
19:47:41 <Steven> ... so we need to look at what DIAL has been doing
19:47:51 <Steven> ... CDF framework for eventing
19:48:20 <oedipus> intrigued by ideas expressed about an XHTML version of XBL, with xhtml as the container
19:48:35 <Steven> Yes Oedipus, a pity that MarkB isn't here
19:48:54 <Steven> I hope he will join at some point to give us more detail
19:49:08 <Steven> but the idea is just a mapping using selectors, to other actions
19:49:20 <Steven> and that is easy to represent using XHTML2
19:49:34 <Steven> we have all the infrastructire to achieve the necessary effect
19:49:51 <Steven> ROland: So Raman, you were talking about XPath
19:49:59 <Steven> ... DIAL uses XPath as well
19:50:02 <Steven> s/RO/Ro/
19:50:10 <oedipus> ah...  i've already talked with the XBL people about assisting in the XBL2 Primer where there is a placeholder for accessibility enhancements via XBL 
19:50:11 <Steven> Steven: And XForms
19:51:19 <Steven> Steven: It's a shame that the CSS selectors are not more coherent
19:51:32 <Steven> ... XPath selectors are clearly more consistent
19:52:09 <oedipus> pity, too, that CSS selectors aren't more coherently implemented, either...
19:52:42 <Steven> ... I suggested when I was in the CSS WG that they ought to design the whole set right at the beginning, even if they didn't include them all in the first version
19:52:47 <oedipus> XForms and XPath in an XHTML version of XBL sounds like the best of both worlds, for what that is worth
19:53:53 <Steven> Offsite people, we are going to talk to UWA people shortly
19:53:59 <Steven> just so you understand if we go quiet
19:54:08 <Steven> We have an appointment at 3
19:54:12 <Steven> (in 6 mins)
19:54:14 <oedipus> camcorder captured ARIA demo for HTML WG at: http://63.119.45.135/aria.avi
19:55:27 <oedipus> quick question to anyone who has an answer: is XProc a viable means of at least managing mash-ups?
19:56:06 <Steven> Oedipus, can't reach the site
19:56:34 <oedipus> Steven, neither can i - the IP address is that of the router in the HTML WG conference room
19:57:43 <Steven> Steven has left #xhtml
19:57:52 <Steven> Steven has joined #xhtml
19:57:55 <oedipus> actually, since i couldn't make it in person, i've been able to attend multiple meetings simultaneously
19:58:09 <Steven> good work!
20:00:41 <ShaneM> ROTFL 
20:01:24 <oedipus> it literally said "versioning, dropped"
20:02:33 <Steven> rrsagent, pointer?
20:02:33 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2007/11/08-xhtml-irc#T20-02-33
20:04:34 <oedipus> marcos is going to send me a copy of the ARIA demo and i'll put it someplace publicly accessible
20:04:53 <Steven> ok
20:05:14 <Steven> We are off for coffee, and then UWA (on #uwawg)
20:06:47 <Steven> We'll be back later in this channel
20:07:05 <ShaneM>  roger
20:07:17 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
20:07:17 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/08-xhtml-minutes.html Steven
20:07:40 <Steven> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2007/11/08-xhtml-minutes.html#item01
20:08:00 <Steven> Steven has changed the topic to: Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2007/11/08-xhtml-minutes.html#item01
20:35:45 <Dennis> Dennis has joined #xhtml
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20:46:36 <Steven-mobile> Steven-mobile has joined #xhtml
20:47:13 <alessio> alessio has joined #xhtml
20:48:21 <alessio> hallo again, sorry but that's italian situation about mobile connection on travelling...
20:48:27 <Dennis> Dennis has joined #xhtml
20:49:46 <Steven-mobile> :-)
20:50:19 <Steven-mobile> Alessio, we are now in a joint mtg #uwawg
20:50:34 <alessio> yes
20:52:25 <myakura> myakura has joined #xhtml
21:03:51 <Nick> Nick has joined #xhtml
21:07:46 <Steven-mobile> Hi nick
21:08:00 <Steven-mobile> We are mtg with uwa
21:08:35 <Steven-mobile> Are you staying in Boston?
21:09:52 <Nick> yes
21:10:25 <Steven-mobile> Actual channel is #ddwg
21:13:07 <Dennis> Dennis has left #xhtml
21:14:46 <ShaneM>  there's some joke there, but its too easy
21:18:32 <myakura> myakura has joined #xhtml
21:30:53 <Nick> is the XHTML wg also meeting tomorrow?
21:31:57 <myakura> think so.
21:32:28 <myakura> http://www.w3.org/2007/11/TPAC/Schedule.html#Fri yes there is
21:33:36 <Nick> not what I'm going to do tomorrow, can I join the meeting?
21:34:35 <Nick> s/not what/not sure what/
21:35:16 <myakura> observers are allowed so i think you can join if registered
21:35:36 <myakura> i think i'll be there at some time
21:42:34 <Steven-mobile> The uwa mtg is unlikely to end soon. We restart tomorrow at 9am EST
21:47:55 <oedipus> thanks steven -- will be there -- well, here, but you know what i mean...
22:08:08 <Steven> Yes Nick, of course you may join