IRC log of swd on 2007-11-06

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:51:15 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #swd
15:51:15 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/11/06-swd-irc
15:51:20 [Tom]
rrsagent, bookmark
15:51:20 [RRSAgent]
See http://www.w3.org/2007/11/06-swd-irc#T15-51-20
15:51:25 [Tom]
zakim, this will be swd
15:51:25 [Zakim]
ok, Tom; I see SW_SWD()11:00AM scheduled to start in 9 minutes
15:52:03 [Tom]
Meeting: SWD WG
15:52:05 [Tom]
Chair: Tom
15:52:23 [Tom]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2007Nov/0003.html
15:52:36 [Tom]
Regrets: Quentin, Jon, Clay, Elisa
15:53:41 [Tom]
Previous: http://www.w3.org/2007/10/30-swd-minutes.html
15:53:54 [Tom]
rrsagent, please make record public
15:55:31 [Zakim]
SW_SWD()11:00AM has now started
15:55:38 [Zakim]
+??P9
15:55:54 [Tom]
zakim, ??p9 is me
15:55:54 [Zakim]
+Tom; got it
15:57:40 [edsu]
edsu has joined #swd
15:57:56 [berrueta]
berrueta has joined #swd
15:59:36 [Zakim]
+[LC]
15:59:49 [Tom]
zakim, LC is Edsu
15:59:49 [Zakim]
+Edsu; got it
15:59:55 [dlrubin]
dlrubin has joined #swd
15:59:56 [Guus]
Guus has joined #swd
16:01:24 [seanb]
seanb has joined #swd
16:02:35 [Antoine]
Antoine has joined #swd
16:03:10 [aliman]
aliman has joined #swd
16:03:11 [edsu]
are you guys able to get into the telecon?
16:03:29 [Zakim]
+??P13
16:03:29 [edsu]
just me and tom in here at the moment
16:03:46 [Tom]
zakim, ??p13 is SeanB
16:03:46 [Zakim]
+SeanB; got it
16:04:04 [Zakim]
+Antoine
16:04:18 [Zakim]
+??P12
16:04:25 [Zakim]
+Guus_Schreiber
16:04:26 [Tom]
zakim, ??p12 is Aliman
16:04:26 [Zakim]
+ +49.842.9.aaaa
16:04:30 [Zakim]
+Aliman; got it
16:04:38 [Tom]
zakim, aaaa is Diego
16:04:38 [Zakim]
+Diego; got it
16:04:48 [Zakim]
+??P22
16:04:52 [Simone]
Zakim, ??P22 is me
16:04:52 [Zakim]
+Simone; got it
16:04:58 [Zakim]
+Ralph
16:05:51 [Zakim]
+??P18
16:06:06 [Tom]
zakim, ??p18 is Dlrubin
16:06:06 [Zakim]
+Dlrubin; got it
16:06:10 [dlrubin]
scribenick: rubin
16:06:19 [dlrubin]
scribenic: dlrubin
16:06:25 [dlrubin]
scribenick: dlrubin
16:06:40 [aliman]
/me hears furious typing :)
16:06:53 [edsu]
it sounds like a choppy connection to me :)
16:07:05 [dlrubin]
Chair: Ralph
16:07:11 [Ralph]
Chair: Tom
16:07:18 [Simone]
Zakim, mute me please
16:07:18 [Zakim]
Simone should now be muted
16:08:05 [dlrubin]
Topic: Admin
16:08:19 [dlrubin]
Amendments to record of face-to-face in Amsterdam
16:08:19 [dlrubin]
ACTION: Ralph to update face to face minutes to reflect the amendment [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/30-swd-minutes.html#action01]
16:08:31 [dlrubin]
--completed
16:08:41 [dlrubin]
--done
16:09:07 [dlrubin]
PROPOSED to accept minutes of the Oct 30 telecon
16:09:13 [dlrubin]
resolved to accept
16:09:24 [dlrubin]
Next telecons: 20 Nov 1600 UTC (13 Nov is cancelled)
16:09:28 [dlrubin]
Next tcon on 11/20
16:09:35 [dlrubin]
Topic: SKOS
16:09:49 [dlrubin]
SKOS - see
16:09:49 [dlrubin]
http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/Deliverables#SKOS
16:10:06 [dlrubin]
Schedule for SKOS deliverables
16:10:06 [dlrubin]
see http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2007Oct/0135.html
16:10:06 [dlrubin]
Month 14, Nov 2007: Editor's Draft, SKOS Reference
16:10:06 [dlrubin]
Month 16, Jan 2007: First Public WD, SKOS Reference
16:10:06 [dlrubin]
Month 17, Feb 2007: Last Call WD, SKOS Reference
16:10:07 [dlrubin]
Month 19, Apr 2007: Candidate Recommendation, SKOS Reference
16:10:16 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/06-swd-minutes.html Ralph
16:10:42 [dlrubin]
Ralph: someone to should review deliverables page and update summaries
16:10:46 [dlrubin]
...to reflect current plans
16:10:57 [dlrubin]
...to bring this up to date
16:11:05 [dlrubin]
...will someone take an action to do that
16:11:18 [Ralph]
zakim, list attendees
16:11:18 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been Tom, Edsu, SeanB, Antoine, Guus_Schreiber, +49.842.9.aaaa, Aliman, Diego, Simone, Ralph, Dlrubin
16:11:19 [dlrubin]
ACTION: Alistair will to update deliverables for SKOS
16:11:33 [aliman]
s/Ralph/Tom/
16:12:19 [dlrubin]
Alistair: we leave option of including primer in recommendation
16:13:27 [dlrubin]
Antoine: should we start working on it now or never?
16:13:40 [dlrubin]
Allistair: should we try to keep them together?
16:14:01 [dlrubin]
Antoine: yes, that's my idea. We say we expect primer to be produced with reference
16:14:21 [Ralph]
(our experience with RDFa was that it was very confusing for the community to have primer and spec get far out of sync)
16:14:26 [dlrubin]
Allistair: we can publish primer as working draft in Feb/Mar. We should aim for two drafts as primer. Should keep them in synch
16:15:08 [aliman]
s/Allistair/Alistair/
16:15:48 [dlrubin]
edsu: agrees with Antoine
16:15:56 [edsu]
dlrubin++
16:16:04 [dlrubin]
Ralph: this should be reflected on deliverables page
16:16:09 [Ralph]
s/Ralph/Tom/
16:17:00 [dlrubin]
ACTION: Alistair and Guus to prepare material for next week on Concept Schemes vs OWL Ontologies [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/30-swd-minutes.html#action04]
16:17:20 [dlrubin]
--continues
16:18:19 [dlrubin]
Alistair: we haven't talked about this yet. I posted an email on this
16:18:29 [dlrubin]
...we ought to have a discussion on this.
16:19:31 [dlrubin]
Guus: we could have a short discussion
16:20:02 [dlrubin]
Guus: at F2F we discussed that SKOS is a metamodel. It models concepts that belong in a vocabulary.
16:20:25 [dlrubin]
...from that perspective, SKOS concepts are from perspective of metamodel--instances may want to be like classes
16:20:53 [dlrubin]
...if you want to treat them as classes (you don't do that in thesauri), you run into problems in OWL-DL
16:21:22 [dlrubin]
...rationale in F2F: the metamodel issue is being addressed in OWL-DL group. SKOS groups shouldn't make decisions
16:21:49 [dlrubin]
...that restrict ourselves to DL where this issue will be taken up. We proposed to say you cannot treat them as OWL classes
16:22:14 [dlrubin]
...Some vocabulary owners will want to treat instances as classes. So my answer is yes, if OWL 1.1 comes up
16:22:31 [dlrubin]
...with solution, then instances will be able to be treatable as classes.
16:23:06 [edsu]
dlrubin: so you are basically saying you will defer the issue to the owl dl group to deal with?
16:27:42 [Tom]
dlrubin: for people using DL and want to use SKOS in their OWL DL ontologies, what are the implications?
16:27:54 [Tom]
Alistair: depends how you want to use OWL DL and SKOS in combination
16:28:18 [Tom]
...if just using labeling properties, not commiting either way
16:28:36 [Tom]
dlrubin: people need to know what parts you can use
16:29:02 [Tom]
SeanB: if you don't expect everything to be in same graph, could use annotations without messing things up
16:29:42 [Tom]
Guus: precisely the point. Also the point of OWL 1.1 - this kind of metamodeling is unlikely to affect the reasoning because you are unlikely to want to [use both at once]
16:30:00 [Tom]
SeanB: would not expect same logical consequences - then could use both in a principled manner
16:30:23 [Tom]
Guus: we need to write about this in the Primer
16:30:57 [Tom]
Al: I put down my understanding in Design Patterns for working with OWL and SKOS...
16:31:41 [aliman]
http://isegserv.itd.rl.ac.uk/public/skos/2007/10/f2f/skos-owl-patterns.html -> Al's document about patterns for working with OWL and SKOS
16:32:12 [dlrubin]
Antoine: For F2F we explored patterns to link to skos concepts.
16:32:30 [aliman]
discussion of skos:it / skos:as
16:32:42 [dlrubin]
...is this something of interest?
16:32:53 [dlrubin]
Guus: I wouldn't go that route
16:33:11 [dlrubin]
Antoine: are we sure there will be a solution from the group?
16:33:30 [dlrubin]
Guus: worst thing that will happen is OWL people would separate the graphs
16:33:57 [dlrubin]
Alistair: even if OWL 1.1 people reosovle metamodel issue, there could be a community that has OWL and SKOS vocabularies separate
16:34:16 [dlrubin]
...I've heard people do that. You may have situations where want to bridge metalevel and below
16:34:34 [dlrubin]
Guus: we can give guidelines. I wouldn't introduce specific vocabulary. I'd give in primer a reference
16:34:51 [dlrubin]
...non-normative section an example. But not introduce new vocabulary.
16:34:57 [dlrubin]
Alisatir: I accept that
16:35:17 [dlrubin]
Guus: Let's leave discussion for now. Action should be to write a section in primer that explains the issue.
16:36:13 [dlrubin]
Alistair: We've got two documents out there. One is my note on patterns. We can use this toward explaining the issue.
16:36:36 [dlrubin]
Guus: drop that action on Alistair and me.
16:37:02 [dlrubin]
ACTION: Alistair and Guus to prepare material for next week on Concept Schemes vs OWL Ontologies [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/30-swd-minutes.html#action04]
16:37:06 [dlrubin]
--drop
16:37:39 [dlrubin]
ACTION: Write section in Primer on how to use OWL-DL in SKOS
16:38:09 [Tom]
s/Write/Alistair and Guus write/
16:39:01 [Ralph]
rrsagent, drop action 4
16:39:51 [aliman]
guus: write draft section in primer on relationship between SKOS concepts and OWL classes or OWL DL users.
16:40:04 [aliman]
s/or/for/
16:40:39 [dlrubin]
ACTION: Antoine to summarise inScheme vs isDefinedBy and decide whether or not to reopen the issue. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/30-swd-minutes.html#action03]
16:40:42 [dlrubin]
--DONE
16:41:17 [Guus]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2007Oct/0141.html
16:41:21 [dlrubin]
Antoine: Some citations from SKOS guide and reference. It's not clear whether same thing is intended.
16:41:45 [dlrubin]
...isDefinedBy is about description of things.
16:42:10 [dlrubin]
...There might be a difference between the two. Might be clearer when Ralph gives more detail on isDefinedBy
16:42:17 [dlrubin]
...I propose re-opening the issue.
16:42:37 [dlrubin]
Guus: I agree with his analysis and support the resolution.
16:42:47 [dlrubin]
ACTION: Ralph to reconstruct proposal for semantics of isDefinedBy [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/30-swd-minutes.html#action02]
16:42:51 [dlrubin]
--CONTINUES
16:43:07 [dlrubin]
ACTION: Tom to amend proposals to for accepting minimal relation labels [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/23-swd-minutes.html#action12]
16:43:07 [dlrubin]
-- done - see http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2007Oct/0137.html
16:43:10 [dlrubin]
--DONE
16:43:19 [dlrubin]
ACTION: Guus to post user experience reports for ISSUE-25 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/03-swd-minutes.html#action05]
16:43:19 [dlrubin]
-- Guus suggested to DROP after ftf decision on the issue, but action has been continued...
16:43:26 [dlrubin]
--DROP
16:43:41 [dlrubin]
ACTION: Guus to write up the issue [of Label Resource] and add to the issue list. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/09-swd-minutes.html#action01]
16:43:49 [dlrubin]
--CONTINUES
16:43:55 [dlrubin]
ACTION: Alistair to update semantics document to listing ways in which SKOS diverges from OWL DL [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/08-swd-minutes.html#action06]
16:44:10 [dlrubin]
--DROP
16:44:20 [dlrubin]
Topic: RDFa
16:44:37 [Ralph]
Alistair: update to semantics doc will be done as part of prior action w/Guus
16:44:40 [dlrubin]
Tom: Teleconf now on Thurs?
16:44:48 [dlrubin]
...yes
16:44:58 [dlrubin]
ACTION: Ben to prepare draft implementation report for RDFa (with assistance from Michael) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/08-swd-minutes.html#action03]
16:45:04 [dlrubin]
--CONTINUES
16:45:24 [dlrubin]
ACTION: Ben and Michael to address comments by Tom [regarding maintenance of wiki document http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/RDFa] recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/08-swd-minutes.html#action05]
16:45:42 [dlrubin]
--CONTINUES
16:46:46 [dlrubin]
Ralph: I don't expect any more RDFa publications in Nov
16:47:09 [dlrubin]
--DONE
16:47:39 [dlrubin]
TOPIC: Recipies
16:47:50 [dlrubin]
RECIPES - see
16:47:50 [dlrubin]
http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/Deliverables#Recipes
16:47:56 [dlrubin]
ACTION: Guus/Tom to solicit reviewers for the Recipes document. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/09-swd-minutes.html#action08]
16:47:58 [dlrubin]
--CONTINUES
16:48:04 [dlrubin]
ACTION: Dan to ask apache about conditional redirects [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/09-swd-minutes.html#action07]
16:48:21 [dlrubin]
--CONTINUES
16:48:24 [dlrubin]
ACTION: Diego to recast Recipe 6 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/09-swd-minutes.html#action02]
16:48:30 [dlrubin]
--CONTINUES
16:48:40 [dlrubin]
ACTION: Jon to add words that acknowledge the existence of RDFa as potential mechanisms, but it's out of scope here. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/09-swd-minutes.html#action06]
16:48:42 [dlrubin]
--CONTINUES
16:48:45 [Guus]
[I have to drop off to help my duagther with exam preps]
16:48:47 [dlrubin]
ACTION: Jon to make changes as proposed [with regard to Issue-23] [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/09-swd-minutes.html#action05]
16:48:50 [dlrubin]
--CONTINUES
16:48:59 [dlrubin]
ACTION: Ralph propose resolution to ISSUE-16 "Default behavior" [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/22-swd-minutes.html#action14]
16:49:03 [dlrubin]
--CONTINUES
16:49:09 [Zakim]
-Guus_Schreiber
16:49:10 [dlrubin]
ACTION: Ralph to come up with a URI for wiki page [for Recipes implementations] [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/09-swd-minutes.html#action04]
16:49:15 [dlrubin]
--CONTINUES
16:49:21 [dlrubin]
ACTION: Ralph/Diego to work on Wordnet implementation [of Recipes] [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/09-swd-minutes.html#action03]
16:49:39 [dlrubin]
--CONTINUES
16:49:44 [dlrubin]
ACTION: TF leaders to prepare a version of Recipes for review in December [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/09-swd-minutes.html#action09]
16:49:52 [dlrubin]
--CONTINUES
16:50:02 [dlrubin]
TOPIC: VOCABULARY MANAGEMENT
16:50:09 [dlrubin]
ACTION: Vit and Elisa to include in the document all the target sections plus an allocation of sections to people and potentially a standard structure for sections [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/08-swd-minutes.html#action07]
16:50:12 [dlrubin]
--CONTINUES
16:50:21 [dlrubin]
TOPIC: AOB
16:50:37 [dlrubin]
SWEO request for input to Semantic Web FAQ re: SKOS
16:50:37 [dlrubin]
see http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2007Nov/0002.html
16:50:53 [dlrubin]
...Anyone willing to take this on?
16:51:02 [dlrubin]
...Need text for this. Would be reusable in Primer
16:51:21 [Ralph]
Ed++
16:51:21 [dlrubin]
edsu: I'll do it
16:51:43 [dlrubin]
ACTION: Ed to write suggest some text about SKOS message for SWEO Semantic Web FAQ
16:52:01 [dlrubin]
Tom: any other topics to discuss?
16:52:22 [dlrubin]
Tom: Thanks everyone. Meeting adjourned.
16:52:30 [Ralph]
zakim, list participants
16:52:30 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been Tom, Edsu, SeanB, Antoine, Guus_Schreiber, +49.842.9.aaaa, Aliman, Diego, Simone, Ralph, Dlrubin
16:52:37 [Zakim]
-Edsu
16:52:43 [Zakim]
-Simone
16:52:48 [Zakim]
-Aliman
16:52:49 [Zakim]
-Diego
16:52:53 [Zakim]
-Antoine
16:52:58 [Antoine]
Antoine has left #swd
16:53:04 [Tom]
zakim, please list attendees
16:53:04 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been Tom, Edsu, SeanB, Antoine, Guus_Schreiber, +49.842.9.aaaa, Aliman, Diego, Simone, Ralph, Dlrubin
16:53:08 [seanb]
seanb has left #swd
16:53:26 [dlrubin]
zakim, meeting adjourned
16:53:26 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'meeting adjourned', dlrubin
16:53:35 [Tom]
Daniel, you are no longer on the call?
16:53:45 [Ralph]
zakim, who's still on the phone?
16:53:45 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Tom, SeanB, Ralph, Dlrubin
16:53:50 [dlrubin]
It dropped me off. I'm calling in again...
16:54:03 [edsu]
seeyas :)
16:54:05 [Tom]
Ralph, can you hear me?
16:54:06 [edsu]
edsu has left #swd
16:54:53 [Zakim]
+??P5
16:55:15 [Ralph]
zakim, ??p5 is Tom
16:55:15 [Zakim]
+Tom; got it
16:55:22 [dlrubin]
rrsagent, please draft minutes
16:55:22 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/06-swd-minutes.html dlrubin
16:56:00 [Zakim]
+??P6
16:56:05 [Zakim]
-Dlrubin
16:56:06 [Zakim]
-Tom
16:57:39 [Zakim]
-Ralph
17:00:32 [Tom]
http://www.w3.org/2007/11/06-swd-irc#T16-43-19
17:02:39 [Zakim]
-??P6
17:02:41 [Zakim]
-Tom.a
17:02:43 [dlrubin]
dlrubin has left #swd
17:06:38 [Zakim]
-SeanB
17:06:39 [Zakim]
SW_SWD()11:00AM has ended
17:06:41 [Zakim]
Attendees were Tom, Edsu, SeanB, Antoine, Guus_Schreiber, +49.842.9.aaaa, Aliman, Diego, Simone, Ralph, Dlrubin
19:04:13 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #swd