IRC log of aria on 2007-10-31

Timestamps are in UTC.

12:59:25 [RRSAgent]
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12:59:25 [RRSAgent]
logging to
13:00:12 [oedipus]
oedipus has joined #aria
13:00:16 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #aria
13:00:21 [anne]
Zakim, this is ARIA
13:00:21 [Zakim]
sorry, anne, I do not see a conference named 'ARIA' in progress or scheduled at this time
13:00:27 [anne]
Zakim, this will be PFWG
13:00:27 [Zakim]
ok, anne, I see WAI_PFWG()9:00AM already started
13:00:29 [Steven]
Steven has joined #aria
13:00:36 [Rich]
meeting: Joint Meeting (HTML, XHTML 2, SVG, WAI PF) ARIA states and properties
13:00:42 [anne]
Zakim, who is here?
13:00:42 [Zakim]
On the phone I see ??P2, ??P8, Gregory_Rosmaita, Aaron_Leventhal
13:00:43 [Steven]
zakim, who is here?
13:00:44 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Steven, Zakim, oedipus, RRSAgent, Rich, anne, hsivonen
13:00:46 [Zakim]
On the phone I see ??P2, ??P8, Gregory_Rosmaita, Aaron_Leventhal
13:00:47 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Steven, Zakim, oedipus, RRSAgent, Rich, anne, hsivonen
13:00:49 [Zakim]
13:00:57 [Rich]
scribe: oedipus
13:00:58 [Steven]
zakim, dial steven-617
13:00:58 [Zakim]
ok, Steven; the call is being made
13:00:59 [Zakim]
13:01:06 [Rich]
chair: Rich
13:01:11 [anne]
Zakim, passcode?
13:01:11 [Zakim]
the conference code is 7394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+ tel:+44.117.370.6152), anne
13:01:35 [aaronlev]
aaronlev has joined #aria
13:01:36 [shepazu]
shepazu has joined #aria
13:01:48 [hsivonen]
hmm. How do I tell whether I'm ??P2 or ??P8?
13:02:16 [Steven]
zakim, mute ??p2
13:02:16 [Zakim]
??P2 should now be muted
13:02:18 [Zakim]
+ +1.313.069.aaaa
13:02:25 [anne]
Zakim, aaaa is me
13:02:25 [Zakim]
+anne; got it
13:02:33 [Steven]
zakim, unmute ??p2
13:02:33 [Zakim]
??P2 should no longer be muted
13:02:47 [hsivonen]
Zakim, ??P8 is me
13:02:47 [Zakim]
+hsivonen; got it
13:03:02 [Steven]
zakim, who is here?
13:03:02 [Zakim]
On the phone I see ??P2, hsivonen, Gregory_Rosmaita, Aaron_Leventhal, Doug_Schepers, Steven, anne
13:03:05 [Zakim]
On IRC I see shepazu, aaronlev, Steven, Zakim, oedipus, RRSAgent, Rich, anne, hsivonen
13:03:29 [Steven]
zakim, ??P2 is Rich
13:03:29 [Zakim]
+Rich; got it
13:03:49 [Zakim]
+ +1.206.528.aabb - is perhaps ChrisWilson
13:03:59 [Rich]
13:04:03 [oedipus]
zakim, mute me
13:04:04 [Zakim]
sorry, oedipus, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
13:04:10 [oedipus]
zakim, mute oedipus
13:04:10 [Zakim]
sorry, oedipus, I do not know which phone connection belongs to oedipus
13:04:29 [oedipus]
zakime, i am Gregory_Rosmaita
13:04:38 [oedipus]
zakim, i am Gregory_Rosmaita
13:04:38 [Zakim]
ok, oedipus, I now associate you with Gregory_Rosmaita
13:04:38 [Steven]
zakim, code?
13:04:39 [Zakim]
the conference code is 7394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+ tel:+44.117.370.6152), Steven
13:04:52 [oedipus]
zakim, mute me
13:04:52 [Zakim]
Gregory_Rosmaita should now be muted
13:04:54 [markbirbeck]
markbirbeck has joined #aria
13:05:19 [ChrisWilson]
ChrisWilson has joined #aria
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+ +020876aacc
13:05:57 [anthony]
anthony has joined #aria
13:06:03 [markbirbeck]
zakim, i am aacc
13:06:03 [Zakim]
+markbirbeck; got it
13:06:14 [Rich]
13:06:49 [Zakim]
13:07:26 [Rich]
Zakim, ?P16 is Anthony
13:07:27 [anthony]
zakim, P16 is me
13:07:29 [Zakim]
sorry, Rich, I do not recognize a party named '?P16'
13:07:34 [Zakim]
sorry, anthony, I do not recognize a party named 'P16'
13:07:51 [anne]
Zakim, 16 is anthony
13:07:51 [Zakim]
sorry, anne, I do not recognize a party named '16'
13:07:54 [Rich]
13:07:57 [anne]
13:08:00 [anthony]
zakim, ??P16 is me
13:08:00 [Zakim]
+anthony; got it
13:08:22 [oedipus]
RS: how to support aria states and properties among different markup languages; linked agenda announcement contains background
13:08:45 [oedipus]
RS: currently ARIA spec uses namespaces for aria properties -- problem porting back and forth from HTML to XHTML/XML
13:09:19 [Steven]
q+ to discuss colon
13:09:45 [oedipus]
RS: HTML WG contingent proposed aria- workaround; colon prevents style application in IE -- triggers visual UI off of properties -- if could leverage, CSS attribute selectors, would be far less javascripting
13:10:02 [oedipus]
RS: XHTML 1.x DOM processing must be the same as text/html
13:11:08 [oedipus]
RS: not considered sensible to alter the processing of the DOM depending on the mime type so namespace colon not thte solution; SVG also wants to use ARIA;
13:11:15 [oedipus]
RS: requirements - content that works in older and newer UAs -- want consistent usage in XHTML namespace no matter what the mime type; not place unecessary burden on authors or developers
13:11:37 [oedipus]
RS: how do we deal with cross-cutting technologies -- current proposal on table -- feedback?
13:11:43 [Rich]
13:11:51 [Rich]
ack Stevn
13:11:54 [Rich]
ack Steven
13:11:54 [Zakim]
Steven, you wanted to discuss colon
13:12:28 [ChrisWilson]
q+ to ask about role
13:12:54 [hsivonen]
q+ to talk about colon in text/html
13:12:58 [anne]
xml:lang doesn't work in text/html
13:13:03 [oedipus]
Steven: yet to be convinced about unsuitability for colon; deliberately chosen in NS spec as allowable; should work same in HTML and XHTML (lang/xml:lang) -- problem of CSS in IE not a design feature, it is a bug in one version; doesn't apply to IE6 (no support for selectors); future IE versions should be able to handle colon;
13:13:10 [Rich]
13:13:15 [Rich]
ack ChrisWilson
13:13:15 [Zakim]
ChrisWilson, you wanted to ask about role
13:13:24 [oedipus]
Steve: shouldn't base decision on bugs in legacy technology
13:14:07 [oedipus]
Chris: role not being discussed -- marc silbey told me XHTML WG using role for things other than ARIA; root of concern about namespacing; want to work consistently across languages
13:14:10 [Steven]
13:14:25 [oedipus]
RS: role is used not just for accessibility in XHTML; cross-cutting technology
13:14:29 [Rich]
13:14:37 [oedipus]
Steve: use is same; how ARIA keys off it is ARIA specific
13:14:48 [oedipus]
CW: values of role can be different in XHTML than other MLs
13:15:06 [oedipus]
Steve: role attribute takes value, those values interpreted in accordance with host language
13:15:18 [oedipus]
CW: matter of interpretation, or does it take diff values in XHTML
13:15:20 [Rich]
13:15:51 [oedipus]
Steve: role attribute from XHTML WG; WAI using XHTML Role to define elements with ARIA properties -- other attributes on elements then come into play
13:15:58 [Steven]
13:15:59 [oedipus]
RS: currently, it is a CURIE
13:16:26 [oedipus]
RS: intended to be cross cutting and extensible; for accessibility using wairole namespace and landmarks as roles to support ARIA
13:16:35 [Rich]
ack hsivonen
13:16:35 [Zakim]
hsivonen, you wanted to talk about colon in text/html
13:16:39 [Rich]
13:17:17 [Rich]
13:17:35 [markbirbeck]
13:17:59 [Steven]
13:18:08 [Rich]
ack markbirbeck
13:18:10 [oedipus]
HS: response to steven - text/html browsers (top 4: IE, Gecko, Webkit, Opera) none of them put xml:lang in a place where a namespace capable UA can handle it; local name becomes namespace in terms of DOM; not just about one version of IE having a bug, but whole text/html being unaware of XHTML namespace; HTML and XML parsers act differently; colon not an XML delimiter in text/html
13:18:24 [Rich]
13:18:58 [shepazu]
13:19:19 [anne]
13:19:20 [hsivonen]
q+ to say it creates a scripting discrepancy between text/html and application/xhtml+xml
13:19:37 [anne]
q- as hsivonen will say it :)
13:19:41 [anne]
13:19:43 [Rich]
ack Steven
13:19:49 [oedipus]
MB: technical issue with colon: if use character and process literally (aria-somethingKnown) might as well use colon: valid character in HTML and XHTML/XML; just because isn't processed in HTML, doesn't mean can't be used as a delimiter; how to approach more general problem of integrating these technologies and how they are applied to HTML and XHTML;
13:20:06 [Rich]
ack shepazu
13:20:34 [Zakim]
13:20:35 [Steven]
13:21:02 [Zakim]
13:21:31 [oedipus]
DougS: understand not wanting to code to a specific flaw in specific browser, but no telling when flaw going to be fixed; is already content out there that could benefit from ARIA; colon doesn't work with CSS Selectors in IE7, but can with other attribute name schemae; don't see colon as possibility from practical point of view; would like it, but afraid not realistic; still not convinced that dash is right way to go -- would like some justification for namespa
13:21:36 [Rich]
ack hsivonen
13:21:36 [Zakim]
hsivonen, you wanted to say it creates a scripting discrepancy between text/html and application/xhtml+xml
13:21:41 [Rich]
13:21:43 [markbirbeck]
13:22:47 [oedipus]
HS: mark said colon gets into DOM -- if colon there, DOM looks different from DOM parsed from text/html from DOM parse of apprilication/xhtml+xml; colon not useable -- if isn't prefix ariadisabled would collide with HTML5 native disabled
13:22:47 [Rich]
ack Steven
13:22:55 [oedipus]
DougS: no one arguing that
13:23:26 [hsivonen]
shepazu, sorry I misunderstood your point then
13:23:35 [Rich]
13:24:14 [Rich]
q+ Rich
13:24:32 [Rich]
ack markbirbeck
13:24:32 [oedipus]
Steven: 2 of Doug's points: 1) bug only relates to CSS as i understand it, CSS aspect of IE7 not essential for functioning of ARIA, so when bug fixed would still work; namespaces not limited to stakeholders present here -- SMIL would be natural place to extend via namespacing; either we throw away namespacing altogether or say that every langauge has to have same mechanism, or maybe do both; namespace is W3C way of doing extensibility on XML based languages
13:25:33 [Rich]
13:26:02 [oedipus]
Mark: not wedded to use of colon, HS said that processing in DOM would be different, but would be different anyway if allowed XML namespacing to work with these feature sets and a dash or underscore; lots of different technologies build on W3C namespacing -- parse local name and look for colon -- just another function call -- have to do for a dash anyway
13:26:02 [hsivonen]
markbirbeck, a script library could use hyphenated names only for both text/html and application/xhtml+xml
13:27:28 [shepazu]
13:27:38 [oedipus]
Mark: need for namespacing in this context -- could argue not needed for ARIA, except for giving names; bigger problem is extensibility of role in MLs worth talking about in broader context
13:28:08 [oedipus]
RS: 1) even if fix colon issue in IE8 (theoretically), bottom line, companies not going to switch to it for a long time; a lot of companies still using IE6
13:28:21 [oedipus]
Steven: not going to work either -- no attribute selectors on IE6
13:28:57 [oedipus]
RS: want something to work now, not in a few years; second, there are a lot of cross-cutting techs that we all ought to consider how to make easy to pull into host language
13:28:59 [Rich]
ack Rich
13:29:08 [Rich]
ack shepazu
13:29:10 [ChrisWilson]
q+ to address the bug in IE
13:29:18 [Rich]
13:30:52 [Steven]
13:31:06 [oedipus]
DougS: namespacing in XML sense -- question as to why namespacing considered superior? not saying don't need namespacing, asking for justification for namespacing; agree that colon is not pragmatic at momement, which is why i have the following 2 opinions: 1. role should be incorporated into host language without namespacing but with reference; 2) if have technologies that cross-cut, need means of indicating this is not a native part of ML; when reference ARIA
13:31:12 [oedipus]
Steven: isn't that namespacing?
13:32:00 [oedipus]
DougS: broader idea than xml namespacing; why proposed underscore -- not part of schema, but distinctive enough to mark as role -- something other than native ML;
13:32:10 [Rich]
ack ChrisWilson
13:32:10 [Zakim]
ChrisWilson, you wanted to address the bug in IE
13:32:18 [Rich]
13:33:13 [Rich]
13:34:00 [oedipus]
ChrisW: highlight few things: bug in IE specifically in dynamic support of namespacing; not firing events on attributes, so don't change stylesheets applied to them if namespace changes in IE7; caution people not to focus on IE6 support -- usage drastically on decline; namespacing not used in HTML -- other UAs don't support; not goal to make all work in text/html; in meeting invite, statement that SVG didn't like dash or hyphen; thought context was hyphen used
13:34:57 [oedipus]
DougS: not actual conflict -- not aria- properties in SVG; technically possible to use it, but if ever to do NDVL dispatching based on prefix, if prefix were aria_ would be easier to locate than aria- ; the dash also makes it appear to be part of SVG
13:35:19 [oedipus]
CW: define all ARIA properties, allow individual host languages to determine embedding mechanism
13:35:38 [Rich]
13:35:45 [markbirbeck]
13:35:48 [oedipus]
DougS: ease of authoring across HTML, XML, XHTML and SVG -- common format; easier for implementors to implement single scheme
13:35:55 [Steven]
13:36:04 [oedipus]
CW: understand authoring across schemae, but is just one scheme
13:36:15 [Rich]
ack markbirbeck
13:37:14 [Rich]
13:38:00 [Rich]
13:38:01 [anne]
13:38:37 [Steven]
13:38:38 [oedipus]
Mark: think that is proposal i was suggesting on list; others suggested same: define what these things mean, but retain syntax flexibility -- nothing wrong with having alternatives; if use role attribute in SVG need to use xml:role otherwise very quirky; nothing wrong with disabling aria: -- not appropriate to HTML; SVG in HTML muddies waters; in regular HTML don't want to mix technology of namespaces; suggestion is xh-role or xh:role -- xh: doesn't mean anythi
13:38:42 [Rich]
ack anne
13:39:20 [markbirbeck]
13:39:26 [oedipus]
AVK: don't see value in having diff syntax for different MLs -- why should HTML use xh:role? why would aria: need to be used in SVG? would allow SVG inside HTML serialization
13:39:31 [oedipus]
DS: how more convenient?
13:39:43 [Rich]
ack Steven
13:39:44 [oedipus]
AVK: less namespace processing in parser
13:40:02 [anne]
13:40:10 [Rich]
13:40:16 [hsivonen]
q+ to say using aria- in SVG will be easier for authors if HTML uses it too
13:40:46 [shepazu]
13:41:03 [oedipus]
Steven: like what mark suggested; no real problem with pure SVG -- uses mechanism anyway; question of SVG in HTML is a different issue; XML-based lang uses namespacing mechanism, since can't use in HTML, use same syntax -- fact that doesn't get processed as namespace doesn't matter; achieve separate syntax
13:41:09 [Rich]
ack markbirbeck
13:41:16 [hsivonen]
Steven, that would lead to DOM discrepancies between the text/html and application/xhtml+xml serializations
13:42:49 [oedipus]
Mark: agree; on AVK's points, doesn't mean anything to be more convenient; have to face fact that there are XML languages that already exist and a tool structured around those tools; asking SVG to change for HTML doesn't make sense today; a way off from that -- could do things now to set up for future, and one is using colon in both situations; can't simply throw away things -- need to try and find solution that begins where we are now
13:43:00 [oedipus]
RS: having 2 vehicles may be way to do it -- dash and colon
13:43:03 [Rich]
13:43:22 [shepazu]
q+ to say that I'd like to see the same syntax for standalone SVG as for SVG in HTML
13:44:03 [Rich]
ack anne
13:44:07 [Rich]
13:44:07 [oedipus]
Mark: in other technologies imported into MLs, set of attributes and elements that can be integrated; definition of language could provide for both ways -- why not xh: and xh- and let diff MLs parse as proper
13:44:51 [oedipus]
AVK: no real SVG usage on web; don't think helps to have 2 ways of acheiving same thing; just because SVG supports namespaces does
13:45:23 [markbirbeck]
13:45:26 [Rich]
13:46:05 [oedipus]
HS: keep things simple -- same between HTML and XHTML as can do with id, class, xml:foo etc. trying to solve specific problem, not global problem; SMIL could use same attributes; ARIA spec defined in fairly abstract way
13:46:15 [hsivonen]
that was someone else
13:46:22 [anne]
that was me oedipus
13:46:22 [oedipus]
13:46:31 [Rich]
ack hsivonen
13:46:31 [Zakim]
hsivonen, you wanted to say using aria- in SVG will be easier for authors if HTML uses it too
13:46:35 [Rich]
13:46:59 [anne]
s/no real SVG/no real XML/
13:47:07 [Rich]
13:47:33 [anne]
s/SVG supports namespaces does/SVG supports namespaces does not mean we should add more/
13:48:50 [Rich]
ack shepazu
13:48:50 [Zakim]
shepazu, you wanted to say that I'd like to see the same syntax for standalone SVG as for SVG in HTML
13:48:53 [oedipus]
Henri: agree with anne; different markup languages shouldn't support same markup in different ways; keep DOM and UA consistent, HTML and XHTML needs to use aria- as well -- want to keep for text/html and application/xhtml+xml -- same type of authoring needed for SVG -- no value of doing different things in different places; just because SVG has hyphenated attributes, might as well use aria- in XML namespace in SVG; HTML5 parser that supports infoset to map HTML
13:48:54 [Rich]
13:49:41 [Rich]
13:50:09 [oedipus]
DougS: agree with AVK that would be confusing for authors especially if try to do SVG in text/html; don't want to make harder for people to use SVG in HTML; if namespacing of role doesn't work in IE, that is a blocker for it working in SVG as well from authoring perspective
13:50:18 [hsivonen]
oedipus, the last bit: the discrepancy between lang and xml:lang is a pain. We should avoid more of that
13:51:03 [oedipus]
Doug: same things that keep namespace attribute content for use in HTML would apply to SVG as well -- if using SVG inside HTML, need to abide by current UA limitations
13:51:08 [Rich]
13:51:13 [Rich]
ack markbirbeck
13:51:36 [Rich]
13:51:51 [hsivonen]
q+ to say the two things lead to the same conclusion
13:51:56 [Rich]
13:52:58 [anne]
13:52:59 [oedipus]
Mark: hearing strange mixed messages -- let's keep simple want solution yesterday, and then some saying want to retrofit SVG for today's UAs; forward thinking a good idea, but think need to break problem into smaller peices; with the events defined concepts and made them available for people to use -- can say "defined role -- if use MLx do this way if use MLy do that way; can sort out SVG in HTML problem later; if say only 1 way to do cross-cutting tech will ge
13:53:40 [Rich]
13:54:31 [Rich]
13:54:53 [Rich]
ack hsivonen
13:54:53 [Zakim]
hsivonen, you wanted to say the two things lead to the same conclusion
13:54:53 [oedipus]
Mark: best way to move forward is say: support both mechanisms and hope that as things go forward, one will emerge as the dominant usage; role defined as taking a CURIE -- syntaxically looks like qname; people would like to put straight URI there -- change role so takes URI and "safe" CURIE (CURIE with square brackets around it); could have role used in places without a:b syntax; wouldn't prevent people from using in namespaced environment; solve a number of di
13:54:57 [Rich]
13:55:29 [oedipus]
HS: backwards compatible with DOM in old HTML UAs as well as integrating SVG into text/html -- different things, but both support same conclusion: avoid colon
13:55:48 [Rich]
13:55:58 [oedipus]
HS: designing concept and syntax -- ARIA already defines concept; this discussion is about getting discrete syntax to achieve that
13:56:01 [Rich]
ack anne
13:56:03 [Rich]
13:56:24 [oedipus]
AVK: not about a generic solution, just trying to solve specific problem; not talking about infinite number of MLs, but just ARIA
13:56:42 [oedipus]
Steve: no, talking about possible infinite range of markup languages
13:56:49 [Rich]
13:57:00 [oedipus]
Mark: trying to change SVG to fit to your specific language
13:57:25 [oedipus]
Mark: simply declaring attribute in no namespace, that is adding to SVG language
13:57:27 [Rich]
13:57:54 [Rich]
q+ Rich
13:57:56 [Rich]
13:58:08 [oedipus]
Mark: thought point of call was cross-cutting technology; anything generic, general responded to with want to fix specific problem, but then raise host of other issues -- adding attributes in no namespaces
13:58:21 [oedipus]
AVK: if use SVG inside HTML, makes sense to use same syntax
13:59:10 [oedipus]
Doug: cannot treat as a single problem with no generalazible trends -- whether people want to acknowledge or not, that is what is on the table -- cross-cutting technology use
13:59:21 [oedipus]
RS: problem with aria- in HTML and XHTML?
13:59:34 [oedipus]
Steve: can't say yea or nay -- have to look at whole picture
14:00:30 [markbirbeck]
E.g., in XML Events we allow @ev:handler in *any* language, and @handler in a language that wants to import the attributes.
14:00:33 [oedipus]
Steve: way for it to work as cross-cutting technology is most important bit; don't feel need for DOM to be same on 2 serializations, but that's bye-the-bye -- have to define problem space before we can reach consensus; declarations don't address all parts of problem space
14:00:48 [markbirbeck]
But we could have said @ev-handler was allowed in any language, too.
14:00:49 [oedipus]
RS: meeting of PF WG next week at TPAC -- can people attend that meeting?
14:01:02 [oedipus]
RS: tuesday morning
14:01:19 [oedipus]
Doug: don't know if will be there have to join call now
14:01:29 [oedipus]
RS: XHTML2 meeting starting now too
14:01:40 [Zakim]
14:01:46 [Zakim]
14:01:48 [Zakim]
14:01:54 [oedipus]
zakim, unmute me
14:02:02 [Zakim]
Gregory_Rosmaita should no longer be muted
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14:02:57 [oedipus]
rrsagent, set logs world-visible
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rrsagent, create minutes
14:03:11 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
14:03:17 [oedipus]
rrsagent, format minutes
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I have made the request to generate oedipus
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rrsagent, publish minutes
14:03:22 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
14:03:32 [oedipus]
zakim, please part
14:03:42 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #aria
14:03:46 [Zakim]
leaving. As of this point the attendees were Gregory_Rosmaita, Aaron_Leventhal, Doug_Schepers, Steven, +1.313.069.aaaa, anne, hsivonen, Rich, +1.206.528.aabb, +020876aacc,
14:03:49 [Zakim]
... markbirbeck, anthony
14:04:08 [oedipus]
rrsagent, publish minutes
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I have made the request to generate oedipus
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scribenick: oedipus
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scribe+ Gregory_Rosmaita
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scribe- oedipus
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rrsagent, publish minutes
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I have made the request to generate oedipus
14:12:05 [anne]
anne has left #aria
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