13:57:46 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdfa
13:57:46 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/10/26-rdfa-irc
13:57:52 <Ralph> zakim, this will be rdfa
13:57:52 <Zakim> ok, Ralph; I see SW_SWD(RDFa)10:00AM scheduled to start in 3 minutes
13:58:49 <Ralph> Meeting: RDFa Task Force
13:58:55 <Ralph> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Oct/0235.html
13:59:14 <Ralph> -> http://www.w3.org/2007/10/18-rdfa-minutes.html previous 2007-10-18
13:59:24 <Ralph> rrsagent, please make record public
13:59:52 <Zakim> SW_SWD(RDFa)10:00AM has now started
13:59:59 <Zakim> +Ben_Adida
14:00:11 <Zakim> +Ralph
14:01:57 <ShaneM> ShaneM has joined #rdfa
14:02:17 <Zakim> +??P19
14:02:23 <msporny> zakim, I am p19
14:02:23 <Zakim> sorry, msporny, I do not see a party named 'p19'
14:02:26 <msporny> zakim, I am ??p19
14:02:26 <Zakim> +msporny; got it
14:02:49 <ShaneM>  zakim, what is the code
14:02:49 <Zakim> I don't understand 'what is the code', ShaneM
14:03:05 <Ralph> zakim, what is the code?
14:03:05 <Zakim> the conference code is 7332 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), Ralph
14:03:43 <Ralph> Regrets: Michael
14:03:50 <Zakim> + +1.763.767.aaaa
14:04:01 <ShaneM>  zakim, aaaa is Steven
14:04:01 <Zakim> +Steven; got it
14:04:04 <ShaneM>  ooops
14:04:08 <ShaneM>  zakim, aaa is ShaneM
14:04:08 <Zakim> sorry, ShaneM, I do not recognize a party named 'aaa'
14:04:17 <Ralph> zakim, steven is really Shane
14:04:17 <Zakim> +Shane; got it
14:04:35 <Ralph> Regrets+ Steven
14:05:11 <Ralph> ACTION: Ben enter Ivan's concerns in  http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Oct/0173.html  as issues in tracker [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/18-rdfa-minutes.html#action08]
14:05:15 <Ralph> -- continues
14:05:43 <Ralph> ACTION: Michael and Manu investigate with Ivan the implementation of the test case validator proposal on w3.org [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/18-rdfa-minutes.html#action07]
14:05:47 <Ralph> -- in progress
14:05:54 <Ralph> Manu: test harness and validator pretty much done
14:06:13 <Ralph> ... only item left to talk with Ivan about is where to host
14:06:22 <Ralph> ACTION: Ben to add status of various implementations on rdfa.info [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/04-rdfa-minutes.html#action06]
14:06:25 <Ralph> -- continues
14:06:34 <Ralph> ACTION: Ben to set up a proper scribe schedule [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action01]
14:06:36 <Ralph> -- continues
14:06:43 <Ralph> ACTION: Michael to create "Microformats done right -- unambiguous taxonomies via RDF" on the wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/23-rdfa-minutes.html#action06]
14:06:45 <Ralph> -- continues
14:07:17 <markbirbeck> markbirbeck has joined #rdfa
14:07:39 <markbirbeck> Had a call, I'm afraid. Coming now.
14:07:53 <markbirbeck> zakim, code?
14:07:53 <Zakim> the conference code is 7332 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), markbirbeck
14:07:59 <Ralph> Ralph: I was asked to join a SWEO face-to-face on Wednesday to talk about RDFa outreach
14:08:40 <Zakim> +??P21
14:08:49 <markbirbeck> zakim, i am ?
14:08:49 <Zakim> +markbirbeck; got it
14:08:57 <Ralph> ... I pointed out that Michael has this action
14:09:11 <Ralph> Manu: I'm heavily involved in microformat community
14:09:15 <Ralph> ... I could talk with SWEO
14:09:41 <Simone> Simone has joined #rdfa
14:10:04 <Ralph> -> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/sweo/ SWEO WG
14:10:37 <Ralph> Ben: There were some recent responses on the mailing list too, offering help
14:12:43 <Ralph> Ralph: Syntax doc was published last Friday
14:13:09 <Ralph> ... SWD approved publishing new Primer on Tuesday
14:13:36 <Ralph> ... Ben has given me the PubRules-compliant version of the Primer today, so I hope to be able to finish that this afternoon
14:14:03 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
14:14:07 <Ralph> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Oct/0235.html
14:14:07 <Simone> Zakim, IPcaller is me
14:14:07 <Zakim> +Simone; got it
14:14:35 <Ralph> Chair: Mark
14:14:53 <msporny> http://www.w3.org/2007/10/18-rdfa-minutes.html#ActionSummary
14:15:47 <msporny> http://rdfa.digitalbazaar.com:8080/
14:15:57 <Ralph> Topic: Status of Test Cases / Test Harness
14:16:26 <Ralph> Manu: anyone who has implemented their RDFa parser as a on-line Web service can use this harness
14:16:34 <Ralph> ... Benjee has started to use it
14:16:42 <Ralph> ... two of the test cases have not been updated
14:16:48 <Ralph> ... tests 11 and 29 fail
14:16:53 <Ralph> ... they shouldn't fail
14:17:23 <Ralph> Mark: this is about stripping whitespace
14:17:36 <Ralph> Manu: yes; they pyrdf implementation differs from Benjee's
14:18:00 <Ralph> Mark: I thought we had concluded that we should strip whitespace [from the test cases]
14:18:15 <Ralph> ... because some browsers always strip whitespace, so it can't be recovered
14:18:26 <Ralph> Ben: yes, we'd agreed to strip whitespace
14:18:35 <Ralph> ... we added a pointer to the CSS language
14:19:00 <Ralph> Shane: Steven is the right person to describe this language
14:19:15 <Ralph> ... I wanted to defer to CSS language
14:19:39 <Ralph> ... the issue the XHTML2 WG faced was that we were asked by CSS not to reproduce their text so as not to introduce errors
14:19:50 <Ralph> ... we then copied their text verbatim but they didn't like that either
14:20:02 <Ralph> Manu: so should we just point to CSS?
14:20:12 <Ralph> Mark: no, we don't want our spec to change as a result of CSS changes
14:20:35 <Ralph> ... we might even want to adapt the language to our processing model
14:21:07 <Ralph> Shane: it's identified as an issue in the draft
14:22:01 <Ralph> Steven, are you willing to take an action to adapt the CSS language and propose it here?
14:22:39 <Ralph> Ben: I'll talk with Michael about test 29; that's part of my action to turn Ivan's comments into issues
14:23:03 <Ralph> Manu: are we also stripping whitespace from XML literals?
14:23:14 <Ralph> Mark: yes, I think we have the same problem there and need to be conservative
14:23:30 <Ralph> ... that does mean we might lose information, e.g., in PRE
14:23:48 <Ralph> Ben: there are rules that browsers follow to preserve whitespace in PRE
14:23:53 <Ralph> ... are those documented anywhere?
14:24:04 <Ralph> Mark: part of the problem is that the HTML and XHTML rules are different
14:24:18 <Ralph> Shane: maybe.  I've heard people say this, but never heard a CSS expert say so
14:24:37 <Ralph> Mark: I thought we needed certain CSS rules because HTML does remove leading and trailing spaces
14:24:50 <Ralph> ... but I didn't encounter this problem in an HTML DOM
14:25:28 <Ralph> Ben: I have experienced this problem
14:25:39 <Ralph> ... in FireFox, the DOM has stripped the whitespace
14:26:15 <Ralph> ... when writing HTML I like to space things out; the browsers seem to ignore this
14:26:29 <Ralph> Mark: we can define processing of literals differently from XML literals
14:27:33 <Ralph> ... it would be nice to find out from implementors those cases where whitespace is stripped
14:27:34 <Steven> I'm willing to take a look
14:27:51 <Ralph> at adapting the CSS language, Steven?
14:27:57 <Steven> yes
14:27:59 <Zakim> -Ben_Adida
14:28:00 <Ralph> great; thanks
14:28:23 <Ralph> ACTION: Steven propose an adaptation of the CSS whitespace rules to incorporate into the Syntax document
14:28:57 <Zakim> +Ben_Adida
14:29:50 <Ralph> Mark: let's try to resolve the issue on whitespace in literals on the list
14:30:56 <Ralph> Ben: I do see FireFox stripping the whitespace and I like it that way
14:31:10 <Ralph> Mark: I'll double-check mine, then; I'm pretty sure I'm seeing whitespace preserved
14:31:31 <Ralph> Topic: handling @rel legacy values
14:31:54 <Ralph> Mark: not only the HTML rel values but also other uses, e.g. Dublin Core
14:32:15 <Ralph> Topic: @instanceof
14:32:29 <Ralph> Mark: Ben and I had a long conversation and we have agreed on an approach to resolve the issue
14:32:41 <Ralph> ... Ben has sent me a set of use cases and I'll look at them
14:33:17 <Ralph> Topic: handling @rel legacy values
14:33:46 <Ralph> Manu: some of the proposed triples seemed strange in relation to Mark's proposal
14:34:00 <Ralph> Shane: none of my triples addressed Mark's proposal
14:34:39 <Ralph> ... (with my XHTML hat ...)
14:34:59 <Ralph> ... in the XHTML world there are some defined values in XHTML 1, XHTML 1.1
14:35:03 <Ralph> ... this is an extensible set
14:35:25 <Ralph> ... the purpose of adding RDFa to XHTML2 two years ago was to help enable the Semantic Web for the common use cases
14:35:34 <Ralph> ... that's why the XHTML2 WG is interested in RDFa
14:36:00 <Ralph> ... so requiring the defined values to include a ':' does not address the XHTML2 use case
14:36:25 <Ralph> Ben: there's also forward-looking interest from XHTML2
14:36:29 <Ralph> Shane: yes, on extensibility
14:36:50 <Ralph> ... but the initial goal was to take advantage of the community mindshare that existing markup does generate triples
14:38:09 <Ralph> Mark: I do favor Shane's position, however given the problems we've had in that discussion, I've given up on pursuing that
14:38:35 <Ralph> ... so I'm suggesting a solution that doesn't skew things so we're prevented from doing other things in the future
14:38:47 <Ralph> ... so adding ':' prefix is a sort of minimal solution
14:39:42 <Ralph> ... if we take it informally that people should also parse 'next' and 'prev' in addition to ':next' and ':prev' but not specify how, that will buy us some time
14:40:10 <Ralph> ... we should take our time to get this right; look at Dublin Core, @profile, and others
14:40:25 <Ralph> Manu: I agree with Mark
14:40:46 <Ralph> ... the biggest problem we've had in talking with microformats is in defining how these things should work
14:41:59 <Ralph> ... moving the discussion into legacy versus here's what you get by adding RDFa is a way to move forward, without discussing specifically what properties come from [specific values of] @rel and @rev
14:42:24 <Ralph> ... could we get feedback from the XHTML2 WG?
14:43:42 <Ralph> Shane: I don't think we'd get a different answer from the XHTML2 WG than the ones Mark and I just gave
14:44:21 <Ralph> ... there's value in saying the author has to explicitly say they want a triple [by adding ':']
14:45:03 <Ralph> ... but it's not consistent to say that implementations may generate other triples and allow those triples to appear in the default graph
14:45:38 <Ralph> Mark: it's a matter of interpretation whether @rel='next' exists yet as a triple
14:46:10 <Ralph> ... I have strong views on the solution, so the discussion may take a while
14:46:34 <Ralph> Ben: we're defining RDFa.  @rel='next' already has a meaning based on the XHTML1.1 specification
14:46:54 <Ralph> ... the idea behind Mark's proposal is "don't mess with the existing meaning"
14:48:01 <Ralph> ... so Mark's proposal is that RDFa not change the meaning
14:48:46 <Ralph> ... since there is a meaning
14:49:50 <Ralph> Ralph: but the current meaning is not expressed as a triple, so the RDFa spec should not encourage generating that triple without defining it
14:50:06 <Ralph> Mark: My proposal is to not specify a triple for @rel='next'
14:50:36 <Ralph> Shane: would we change CURIE to require ':'?
14:50:37 <Ralph> Mark: no
14:50:57 <Ralph> Shane: so the processing rules would change to ignore when there's no ':'?
14:51:07 <Ralph> Ben: those sound like flimsy host-language-specific rules
14:51:29 <Ralph> Mark: I'm suggesting 'undefined' rather than 'not processed'
14:51:51 <Ralph> Manu: with the notion of a preprocessing step, 'ignore anything without a colon' works
14:52:23 <Ralph> ... later, preprocessing can add ':' to @rel='next'
14:52:37 <Ralph> Mark: I'm trying to avoid saying anything about preprocessing
14:53:08 <Ralph> Manu: we do expect to define preprocessing in the future
14:53:25 <Ralph> Mark: yes, but we don't yet know enough about what we want to specify in preprocessing
14:55:06 <Ralph> ... we don't currently know enough to specify how to deal with the legacy values
14:56:12 <Ralph> ... I don't see a big issue in citing examples of legacy values and saying "we don't know yet how we want to handle these"
14:56:12 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-work
14:56:13 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made
14:56:14 <Zakim> +Steven
14:56:52 <Ralph> Shane: I think if we're not going to solve this in the first Recommendation for XHTML1.1+RDFa, then we don't need to ever define it
14:57:23 <Ralph> ... once we've established a baseline that requires a ':', we should just stick with it
14:58:13 <Ralph> ... this is separate from whether CURIEs must have a colon
14:58:17 <Ralph> ... just triples require a colon
14:58:52 <Ralph> Ralph: my concern is about interoperability
14:59:27 <Ralph> ... we're not doing the community any favors if we release a spec that we *expect* will be implemented different ways without interoperability
14:59:29 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/RDFa#RDFa_schedule
15:00:06 <Ralph> Topic: Schedule
15:00:40 <Ralph> Ben: we'll need to push to resolve these issues before [Nov 22], as things will slow down after then
15:01:38 <Ralph> Shane: will we meet on 8 Nov?
15:01:41 <Ralph> Ben: no
15:02:34 <Ralph> ... but 1 Nov we should meet; note it will be 1 hour earlier for Europeans
15:02:39 <Ralph> ... i.e. at 1500 UTC
15:03:50 <Ralph> ... after November it will be at 1600 UTC
15:04:17 <Zakim> -Shane
15:04:19 <Ralph> [adjourned]
15:04:21 <Zakim> -Steven
15:04:22 <Zakim> -markbirbeck
15:04:25 <Zakim> -Ralph
15:04:30 <Zakim> -msporny
15:04:34 <Zakim> -Ben_Adida
15:04:42 <Zakim> -Simone
15:04:46 <Zakim> SW_SWD(RDFa)10:00AM has ended
15:04:48 <Zakim> Attendees were Ben_Adida, Ralph, msporny, +1.763.767.aaaa, Shane, markbirbeck, Simone, Steven
15:05:03 <Ralph> rrsagent, please draft minutes
15:05:03 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/26-rdfa-minutes.html Ralph
15:05:06 <Ralph> zakim, bye
15:05:14 <Zakim> Zakim has left #rdfa
15:24:26 <ShaneM> ShaneM has joined #rdfa
15:48:47 <ShaneM> ShaneM has joined #rdfa