16:26:08 RRSAgent has joined #ua 16:26:08 logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/10/25-ua-irc 16:26:23 rrsagent, set logs public 16:26:38 zakim, this will be wai_u 16:26:38 ok, AllanJ; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 34 minutes 16:50:52 JR has joined #ua 16:52:51 Scribe: JR 16:59:55 WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started 17:00:02 +[IPcaller] 17:00:24 +Gregory_Rosmaita 17:00:37 +AllanJ 17:01:02 zakim, [IPcaller] is really JR 17:01:02 +JR; got it 17:01:26 +[IBM] 17:01:44 zakim, [IBM] is really pparente 17:01:44 +pparente; got it 17:02:03 +Cathy_Laws 17:02:31 cklaws has joined #ua 17:03:03 +[Microsoft] 17:03:20 zakim, [Microsoft] is really kford 17:03:20 +kford; got it 17:05:05 Topic: F2F 17:05:38 KF: Can't make it to F2F. 17:05:41 JR: Call in? 17:05:45 KF: Interested 17:06:00 oedipus has joined #ua 17:06:06 JA: Jan, Jim, Cathy F2F+ maybe Gregory 17:06:24 JA: Kelly, Peter on phone + maybe Gregory 17:06:34 JA: We are making strides on Req 17:07:17 JR: No replies from observers 17:07:31 Topic: 1. review action items 17:08:00 KF: Action item likely supplanted by new group review of GL2 17:08:03 JA: Agreed 17:08:25 JA: GR on 2.2 17:09:09 GR: XPROC - maybe way to handle mashups... 17:09:44 GR: XML pipeline language...by controlling flow could cue things up and decide what to accept, not accept 17:10:00 JA: Relation? 17:10:28 GR: Course of last resort being document source...and Cathy brought up that mashups make this hard... 17:10:48 GR: So I was asked to look at this from plain page and compound page view 17:11:30 CL: Is Rich doing things related to ACCLIP from IMS 17:12:17 GR: Pinged him ..... XPROC has same namespacing issue as many other languages at the moment 17:12:30 GR: XPROC last call ended yesterday 17:12:40 GR: Defer to Rich on this 17:13:07 XPROC reference http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/WD-xproc-20070920/ 17:13:12 CL: Can find out more from Rich 17:13:27 GR: Not light reading, large and very detailed 17:13:44 GR: Tomorrow comments on XHTML role are due 17:14:04 GR: 3 PF request on XHTML Role... 17:14:23 GR: TITLE missing from list of pre-defined roles 17:15:30 GR:Other 2....now does not allow for strings of normal expressions...still seeking consistent way of implementing ARIA across technologies 17:15:48 GR: ARIA issue running into name-spacing issues 17:16:09 GR: On 31st of Oct. Rich will be chairing a call on the name spacing issue 17:16:24 GR: Will be a cross group meeting. 17:16:41 JA: Back to TITLE issue...sould that be used to give title to live regions etc? 17:17:13 GR: Right now we are looking at page titling, but extensible so could be used to title areas 17:17:35 GR: It's a reusable way of annotating. 17:18:06 GR: Problem now is that in <head> filled with placeholder since it only gets exposed in the chrome 17:18:18 <JR> GR: We want to set a F2F agenda today 17:18:31 <JR> GR should be JA 17:18:48 <JR> JA: CL thinks we should make some pre-F2F assignments 17:19:18 <JR> JA: Still mashing through 1-4 but we still have 5-12... 17:19:53 <JR> JA: So think we should go through them and see where gaps and proposals needed 17:20:11 <JR> CL: So where comments are? 17:20:22 <oedipus> oedipus has joined #ua 17:20:38 <JR> JA: Looking at Wiki where we have UAAG2 Issues 17:20:58 <JR> JA: Ex. GL5 has no issues at the moment 17:21:16 <JR> JA: GL6 is all about APIs 17:21:39 <JR> JA: So I went through and scribbled prelim list... 17:21:56 <JR> JA: So JA=>GL5 17:22:08 <JR> JA: Cathy=>GL6? 17:22:11 <JR> CL: OK 17:22:26 <JR> Action JA: Look at GL5 17:22:33 <JR> Action CL: Look at GL6 17:22:54 <JR> Action KF: Look at GL7 17:23:17 <JR> CL: May add some high contrast issue stuff to GL7 17:23:26 <JR> Action JR: Look at GL8 17:23:53 <JR> Action PP: Look at GL9 17:24:25 <JR> Action GR: Look at GL10 17:24:46 <JR> Action JA: Look at GL11 17:26:06 <JR> Action JR: Look at GL12 17:26:49 <JR> JA: Gap identification AND/OR proposals 17:26:56 <JR> JA: Also pls send to list 17:27:24 <JR> JA: Tentatively lets just schedule 1.5 hours per guideline... 17:27:39 <JR> JA: CL has to go a bit early on Tues. 17:27:55 <JR> PP: Have some meetings on those days so I'll send my schedule 17:28:09 <JR> JA: Some may run over and others go short 17:29:07 <JR> JR: F2F 9-17:30 both days 17:29:52 <JR> JA: 2,3,4 should get some time too 17:29:56 <oedipus> oedipus has joined #ua 17:30:10 <JR> Action JR: Do agenda 17:31:02 <JR> Topic: 2.3 Render conditional content (P1) 17:31:11 <JR> KF: Confusing... 17:31:25 <JR> KF: Does this still reflect overall intent of what we want UA's to do? 17:31:55 <JR> KF: Other words, is this what we want it to do or is it missing something 17:32:17 <JR> KF: My impression is that this is what we want, but maybe language needs cleanup 17:32:58 <JR> JA: So currently conditional content is hard to get at 17:33:10 <JR> JA: ex. alt 17:33:24 <JR> JA: Then there are fallbacks like noscript 17:33:43 <JR> JA: So this says even if there is a way to get conditional content 17:35:51 <oedipus> 3.6 needs a bullet to the effect: Allow configuration to allow simultaneous rendering of an image and its long descriptor 17:36:29 <oedipus> rationale: guidance for those with very limited viewport; assistance to those with congnative processing; provides guide through flow of image 17:36:38 <JR> JA: Conditional content: defn read by Jim 17:36:42 <AllanJ> JR: primary and secondary content, 17:37:06 <oedipus> FYI HTML WG wiki page: http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/IssueAltAttribute 17:37:24 <JR> KF: So if multiple versions sent to browser, browser should show access to all 17:37:51 <JR> KF: Example of flash app 17:38:30 <JR> GR: HTML working group has been discussing use cases where all cases are avaialble 17:39:19 <JR> JA: So is the problem just the language? 17:39:44 <oedipus> FYI HTML WG Wiki page: http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/ABetterAlt 17:39:55 <JR> CL: Don't think this lang requires access to all...e.g. C in place of D 17:40:09 <JR> KF: I think for end user we want ALL. 17:40:31 <oedipus> Image Equivalent Content - contains a lot of discussion of issues we are currently discussing in this telecon: http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/LongdescRetention 17:41:32 <JR> JR: How would this look/sound? 17:41:58 <JR> KF: User agent might ... kind of like stylesheet... 17:42:06 <JR> CL: So settings... 17:42:19 <JR> FK: eg. I'd like this or this or both of these. 17:42:30 <JR> CL: Key could switcvh... 17:42:53 <JR> KF: e.g. image toggle 17:43:10 <JR> KF: Browser knows about what it detects 17:43:16 <JR> CL: Not technically impossible 17:43:28 <JR> KF: Users would play with it a bit 17:43:42 <JR> JA: So users wouldn't have to query 17:43:56 <JR> KF: Screen readers already do this. 17:44:35 <JR> KF: If you turn things off they can handle it 17:44:44 <JR> CL: So maybe "Doing More" 17:44:52 <JR> GR: ARIA could be used 17:45:34 <JR> KF: I think I have an idea of what people are looking for...I will rewrite 17:45:56 <JR> Action KF: New rewording of 2.3 17:47:37 <AllanJ> JR: user should be able to define things by modality, give me flash, but have a key to render text if available... 17:48:20 <AllanJ> ...configure for permanant swaps for content, but allow swapping on demand 17:48:54 <JR> JA: Other things...2.4... 17:49:11 <JR> Topic: 2.4 Allow time-independent interaction (P1) 17:49:25 <JR> JA: Thought there may be some AJAX issue... 17:49:45 <JR> JA: Think I am ok with this 17:50:26 <JR> JA: Live regions come into play so much - not sure we need to do anything here 17:50:45 <JR> CL: Will put link in IRC from Aaron Leventhal on issues 17:51:23 <cklaws> http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/AJAX:WAI_ARIA_Live_Regions/API_Support 17:51:31 <JR> JA: Somewhere we need to have user override of "politeness" 17:51:49 <JR> GR: Very analagous to CSS "importance" 17:52:27 <JR> Action JA: Proposal on user override o author defined "politeness" 17:52:56 <JR> KF: But web techs are pushing envelope on what UA can know about... 17:53:24 <JR> KF: Maybe we need add a section on this content taking over UA roles 17:53:39 <oedipus> XProc: An XML Pipeline Language - http://www.w3.org/TR/xproc/ (LC closed yesterday) 17:53:39 <JR> JA: Sounds good 17:53:42 <JR> JR: Yes 17:53:55 <JR> GR: OK 17:54:11 <JR> GR: Trying to harmonize with HTML5 too... 17:54:29 <JR> GR: HTML5 has lots of UA guidance 17:55:02 <JR> GR: HTML5 will also have an authoring tool section 17:56:16 <JR> JA: We continue to have AJAX discussion and I've expressed some of these concerns to PF...it's certainly something we can put in the introduction...plus I'd like to get it into the guidelines 17:57:17 <JR> CL: With new events, live regions etc. we'll need to discuss in doc. 17:57:42 <JR> GR: PF asking HTML5 to use ARIA model 17:58:02 <JR> GR: But may break certain XML based implementations 17:59:09 <JR> GR: ARAI will be TR long before HMTL5 17:59:20 <JR> CL: ANd there is ARIA support in Firefox 17:59:28 <JR> GR: ANd Opera 18:00:24 <JR> GR: Am doing some QA on PF's ARIA examples 18:01:09 <JR> JA: We have many audio/video things scattered about.... 18:01:43 <oedipus> GJR notes that he now has CVS access so can (after TPAC) mount the "until user agent..." page and the "UA Support" pages to be updated as we discussed in august 18:01:47 <JR> JA: This is another area where we can bogged down...maybe we can pull them out 18:02:01 <cklaws> http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/ARIA:_Accessible_Rich_Internet_Applications/Relationship_to_HTML_FAQ 18:02:46 <AllanJ> JR: media is similar to Web 2.0 stuff, the browser does not know about the content and functionality... 18:03:09 <JR> KF: In some degree language reflective of time 1.0 was written 18:03:11 <AllanJ> e.g. using scripting and divs etc. to create a slider 18:03:33 <JR> KF: On one call we talked out thinking about other user agents 18:03:39 <JR> KF: Needs to stay... 18:04:02 <JR> KF: Maybe there are ways to clean them up. 18:04:26 <Zakim> -pparente 18:04:28 <Zakim> -kford 18:04:29 <Zakim> -Cathy_Laws 18:04:35 <Zakim> -Gregory_Rosmaita 18:06:41 <Zakim> -AllanJ 18:06:46 <Zakim> -JR 18:06:48 <Zakim> WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has ended 18:06:49 <Zakim> Attendees were Gregory_Rosmaita, AllanJ, JR, pparente, Cathy_Laws, kford 18:06:55 <AllanJ> AllanJ has left #ua 18:07:22 <JR> RRSAgent, make minutes 18:07:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/25-ua-minutes.html JR 18:07:30 <JR> RRSAgent, set logs public 18:07:38 <JR> Zakim, bye 18:07:38 <Zakim> Zakim has left #ua 18:07:47 <JR> RRSAgent, bye 18:07:47 <RRSAgent> I see 11 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/25-ua-actions.rdf : 18:07:47 <RRSAgent> ACTION: JA to Look at GL5 [1] 18:07:47 <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/25-ua-irc#T17-22-26 18:07:47 <RRSAgent> ACTION: CL to Look at GL6 [2] 18:07:47 <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/25-ua-irc#T17-22-33 18:07:47 <RRSAgent> ACTION: KF to Look at GL7 [3] 18:07:47 <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/25-ua-irc#T17-22-54 18:07:47 <RRSAgent> ACTION: JR to Look at GL8 [4] 18:07:47 <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/25-ua-irc#T17-23-26 18:07:47 <RRSAgent> ACTION: PP to Look at GL9 [5] 18:07:47 <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/25-ua-irc#T17-23-53 18:07:47 <RRSAgent> ACTION: GR to Look at GL10 [6] 18:07:47 <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/25-ua-irc#T17-24-25 18:07:47 <RRSAgent> ACTION: JA to Look at GL11 [7] 18:07:47 <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/25-ua-irc#T17-24-46 18:07:47 <RRSAgent> ACTION: JR to Look at GL12 [8] 18:07:47 <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/25-ua-irc#T17-26-06 18:07:47 <RRSAgent> ACTION: JR to Do agenda [9] 18:07:47 <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/25-ua-irc#T17-30-10 18:07:47 <RRSAgent> ACTION: KF to New rewording of 2.3 [10] 18:07:47 <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/25-ua-irc#T17-45-56 18:07:47 <RRSAgent> ACTION: JA to Proposal on user override o author defined "politeness" [11] 18:07:47 <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/25-ua-irc#T17-52-27