14:00:32 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #bpwg
14:00:32 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/10/23-bpwg-irc
14:00:34 <trackbot-ng> RRSAgent, make logs public
14:00:35 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #bpwg
14:00:37 <trackbot-ng> Zakim, this will be BPWG
14:00:37 <Zakim> ok, trackbot-ng, I see MWI_BPWG(BCTF)10:00AM already started
14:00:39 <trackbot-ng> Meeting: Mobile Web Best Practices Working Group Teleconference
14:00:41 <trackbot-ng> Date: 23 October 2007
14:00:53 <Zakim> +Bryan
14:00:54 <Magnus> Magnus has joined #bpwg
14:00:58 <jo> zskim, code?
14:01:03 <jo> zakim, code?
14:01:03 <Zakim> the conference code is 2283 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), jo
14:01:25 <Rhys> zakim, who is here
14:01:25 <Zakim> Rhys, you need to end that query with '?'
14:01:37 <Rhys> zakim, who is here?
14:01:37 <Zakim> On the phone I see Rhys, Bryan
14:01:38 <Zakim> On IRC I see Magnus, Zakim, RRSAgent, SeanPatterson, kemp, rob, Rhys, jo, matt, trackbot-ng
14:01:42 <Zakim> +jo
14:02:09 <Zakim> +Magnus
14:02:25 <Zakim> + +1.519.880.aaaa
14:02:47 <jo> zakim, aaaa is kemp
14:02:53 <Zakim> +kemp; got it
14:03:13 <Zakim> +SeanPatterson
14:03:17 <jo> Chair: Rhys
14:03:58 <Zakim> + +079320aabb
14:04:15 <rob> zakin, aabb is rob
14:04:24 <Rhys> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg-ct/2007Oct/0038.html
14:04:33 <Rhys> zakim, aabb is rob
14:04:33 <Zakim> +rob; got it
14:04:55 <Rhys> zakim, who is here?
14:04:55 <Zakim> On the phone I see Rhys, Bryan, jo, Magnus, kemp, SeanPatterson, rob
14:04:56 <Zakim> On IRC I see Magnus, Zakim, RRSAgent, SeanPatterson, kemp, rob, Rhys, jo, matt, trackbot-ng
14:05:03 <Andrew> Andrew has joined #bpwg
14:06:21 <SeanPatterson> scribe: SeanPatterson
14:06:38 <SeanPatterson> Scribe: SeanPatterson
14:06:50 <Zakim> +AndrewSwainston
14:07:16 <Rhys> Scribenick: SeanPatterson
14:08:25 <SeanPatterson> Rhys: Thank you to Jo for leading last week's meeting.
14:08:33 <SeanPatterson> Topic: Problem Statement
14:08:34 <jo> [no problem]
14:09:04 <SeanPatterson> Rhys: Jo tooke the proposed prob statement to the full BP group
14:09:16 <jo> s/tooke/took/
14:09:24 <SeanPatterson> The BP group is happy if the task force is happy
14:09:43 <SeanPatterson> There is some problem with the title.
14:10:07 <SeanPatterson> BP group agreed prob statement should be published as note
14:10:19 <SeanPatterson> Mike said that comm group didn't like the title
14:10:47 <SeanPatterson> CT TF and BP group don't really care about the title
14:10:59 <SeanPatterson> There is not a problem with the document
14:11:24 <SeanPatterson> In order to keep everyone happy, we should change the name of the prob statement
14:11:49 <SeanPatterson> Possible name changes: CT Challenges or CT Landscape
14:12:03 <Rhys> q?
14:12:17 <SeanPatterson> Jo: Preference would be Landscape
14:12:45 <jo> PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Change title to Content Transformation Landscape
14:12:48 <kemp> +1 landscape
14:12:51 <SeanPatterson> Rhys: Happy with Landscape
14:12:52 <rob> +1 
14:13:11 <Magnus> +1 landscape
14:13:24 <SeanPatterson> Andrew: Not wild about either title, but we should just get it out
14:13:40 <jo> RESOLUTION: Change title to Content Transformation Landscape
14:13:59 <jo> -> http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/TaskForces/CT/editors-drafts/ProblemStatement/CTProblemStatement.html Revised Document
14:14:07 <SeanPatterson> Rhys: Next step is to go ahead and publish
14:14:46 <SeanPatterson> Jo: Prob statement is described as W3C working group note and is publishable
14:15:05 <SeanPatterson> Jo: is there a difference between working group note and W3C note?
14:15:22 <SeanPatterson> Rhys: No aware of difference
14:15:42 <SeanPatterson> Jo: Didn't see anything in process document about W3C note.
14:15:54 <SeanPatterson> Should publish as working group note
14:16:01 <SeanPatterson> Rhys: Agree
14:16:22 <SeanPatterson> Jo: Working group note does not imply support of full W3C
14:16:34 <SeanPatterson> Jo: Let's just call it a working group note
14:17:36 <SeanPatterson> Rhys: Working group notes are reference-able documents but have not been accepted by the entire W3C
14:17:45 <SeanPatterson> Should publish as working group note.
14:18:20 <SeanPatterson> Rhys: Doesn't seem to be any difference between W3C and working group note
14:18:32 <jo> PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Publish document referred to above
14:18:38 <SeanPatterson> Rhys: Last we had a resolution about publishing the prob stmt
14:18:41 <Andrew> +1
14:18:41 <jo> RESOLUTION: Publish document referred to above
14:19:08 <SeanPatterson> Topic: Guidelines Document
14:19:41 <SeanPatterson> Rhys: Draft is still an outline, hasn't changed.  Thanks to contributors
14:20:13 <SeanPatterson> Rhys: Want to check that the people who wanted to contribute have made their contributions
14:20:29 <Andrew> q+
14:20:34 <SeanPatterson> Is there any other material that others want to contribute?
14:20:55 <SeanPatterson> Bryan: We will probably be making a submission.
14:21:06 <SeanPatterson> Rhys: How soon?
14:21:11 <SeanPatterson> Bryan: Very soon.
14:21:22 <Andrew> q-
14:21:36 <SeanPatterson> Rhys: What I'd like to start doing is flesh out the document with the contributions
14:21:39 <Zakim> -Bryan
14:21:43 <Magnus> q+
14:21:57 <SeanPatterson> Once we get it fleshed out we'll have some discussions about it
14:22:21 <SeanPatterson> Magnus:  Would like to see frequent revisions; best way for me to work
14:22:40 <SeanPatterson> Sorry for not contributing more, but have been busy.
14:22:46 <SeanPatterson> What is the schedule?
14:22:58 <matt> matt has joined #bpwg
14:23:10 <SeanPatterson> Rhys: Thought it might be possible to get a draft done by the moritorium on 10/31
14:23:26 <SeanPatterson> Probably won't be able to get a draft done by then, however.
14:23:43 <SeanPatterson> First working draft hopefully will be done after the F2F
14:23:58 <Zakim> + +1.206.612.aacc
14:24:02 <SeanPatterson> Hopefully have a draft before F2F
14:24:30 <SeanPatterson> Rhys: agrees that it is easier to work with frequent revisions
14:24:41 <SeanPatterson> Still time to make contributions
14:25:09 <SeanPatterson> Magnus: Won't be able to contribute in the month of October; should have time in November?
14:25:28 <SeanPatterson> Rhys: That should not be too late.
14:25:44 <SeanPatterson> Jo: Should make first public working draft as soon as possible
14:26:08 <SeanPatterson> Last call draft scheduled for before Christmas
14:26:23 <SeanPatterson> Magnus: Would like to see an early revision even if there are missing parts
14:27:22 <SeanPatterson> Jo: Create a non-note document that contains contributions about the basic approach
14:28:03 <SeanPatterson> Rhys: Is the public editor's draft stealthy enough to do this?
14:28:15 <SeanPatterson> Jo: Would rather do it on the list.
14:28:49 <jo> zakim, aacc is probably Bryan
14:28:49 <Zakim> +Bryan?; got it
14:29:08 <SeanPatterson> Rhys: Just need to make sure that we get out revisions so it is not to complicated
14:29:22 <SeanPatterson> Magnus: Can we have a date where the first draft is ready?
14:29:52 <SeanPatterson> Rhys: Sometime after F2F in early  November
14:30:39 <SeanPatterson> Magnus: Can do some work in early November, not week after F2F and then can contribute again the last 2 weeks of November
14:31:08 <SeanPatterson> Jo: Think we can put together an editor's draft before the F2F in the next week or so
14:31:27 <SeanPatterson> Jo: Volunteer to put together the editor's draft
14:31:37 <SeanPatterson> Rhys: That sounds good
14:32:28 <SeanPatterson> Magnus: That works for me
14:32:49 <SeanPatterson> Rhys: Do you need an action
14:33:36 <jo> ACTION: Jo  to promote discussion on the list and then produce editors draft based on discussion
14:33:36 <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-581 -  to promote discussion on the list and then produce editors draft based on discussion [on Jo Rabin - due 2007-10-30].
14:34:11 <SeanPatterson> Rhys: Should we go through the current action items and issues?
14:34:44 <SeanPatterson> Jo: There are quite a few actions items that probably should be closed.
14:35:03 <Rhys> q?
14:35:14 <Magnus> q-
14:35:14 <SeanPatterson> However, maybe we should discuss what is going to go in the editor's draft since there is a good turnout today
14:35:28 <SeanPatterson> Rhys: Do you want to lead discussion?
14:35:48 <Rhys> Magnus's original contribution http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg-ct/2007Sep/0014.html
14:36:03 <SeanPatterson> Jo: Sure; we need to get straighted out the kinds of things that the various actors need to say
14:36:22 <Andrew> Also case of Browser <--> CT <--> CT ... CT <--> Content server
14:36:50 <SeanPatterson> We can pick out whose going to say what to whom and am confident that we can say these with HTTP
14:37:13 <jo> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg-ct/2007Sep/att-0014/00-part Attachment to Magnus's email
14:38:07 <SeanPatterson> Jo: Let's talk about Magnus's contribution
14:38:18 <SeanPatterson> Magnus: I'll walk through it
14:38:43 <SeanPatterson> The basic scenario is with a single CT proxy; there are other cases with more than on CT proxy
14:39:07 <SeanPatterson> Trying to make it easy for now, but we need to handle multiple proxies eventually
14:39:50 <SeanPatterson> First case is client to CT proxy
14:39:54 <jo> q+
14:40:06 <Rhys> q?
14:40:12 <Rhys> q+
14:40:28 <SeanPatterson> Jo: Makes good sense.
14:40:51 <SeanPatterson> Browser also needs to be able to talk to server; which is traditional case
14:41:15 <SeanPatterson> Browser needs to be able to tell server that it wants a desktop experience
14:41:37 <SeanPatterson> Magnus: Didn't list this because it is kind of implicit
14:42:04 <Rhys> +1 to client being able to say that it wants to have a mobile or desktop experience
14:42:31 <Rhys> ack jo
14:42:50 <SeanPatterson> Magnus: There is a logical and physical comm going on.
14:43:10 <SeanPatterson> Jo: It is about the experience as opposed to transforming the content
14:43:31 <SeanPatterson> Magnus: Intermediaries should not screw up comm between client and server
14:44:04 <Andrew> Is that not covered by point 2?
14:44:10 <SeanPatterson> Jo: Add another section about how the client can tell the server what kind of experience it wants: desktop or mobile
14:44:38 <SeanPatterson> Magnus: Could add another section called logical communication
14:44:51 <SeanPatterson> about what client and server need to say to each other.
14:44:52 <Bryan> Bryan has joined #bpwg
14:45:15 <SeanPatterson> Jo: Would be simpler to say there are 6 kinds of communication going on
14:46:12 <SeanPatterson> Magnus: How about an origin server that doesn't understand; always sends desktop content
14:46:47 <Andrew> q+
14:47:07 <SeanPatterson> Magnus: In this case the CT proxy could provide a stylesheet for the correct media type
14:47:29 <jo> ack r
14:48:03 <SeanPatterson> Rhys: Magnus' example is a good one.  Jo's suggestion of putting a couple of new subsections is a good idea.
14:48:27 <SeanPatterson> Rhys: One way to talk about this is to have the client talk about what it wants
14:48:41 <SeanPatterson> Rhys: instead of who it talks to
14:48:58 <jo> q?
14:49:00 <Rhys> ack me
14:49:00 <jo> ack a
14:49:07 <SeanPatterson> We can get what Jo is looking for by adding a couple of subsections
14:49:39 <SeanPatterson> Andrew: I think it is necessary describe what the client can say to the content server
14:49:52 <Rhys> q?
14:50:14 <SeanPatterson> Andrew: Likes Jo's idea of a logical connection between browser and content server
14:50:29 <SeanPatterson> Rhys: What would help for next draft?
14:51:50 <Bryan> can't talk right now...on the bus. but i agree that somtimes the client will bypass the proxy
14:51:54 <SeanPatterson> Jo: How much effort do we want to put in on Magnus's idea?
14:52:02 <Magnus> q+
14:52:12 <Rhys> ack magnus
14:52:24 <SeanPatterson> of putting a stylesheet in to help out the client
14:52:39 <SeanPatterson> Magnus: CT server can add value to request to server
14:52:59 <SeanPatterson> CT server can step in and improve response in another of ways
14:53:07 <jo> s/Magnus's idea/Magnus's idea about the proxy amplifying or improving the server's response/
14:53:17 <SeanPatterson> CT server can also screw up request and response.
14:53:35 <SeanPatterson> Need to find out when it is OK to add value when when it is not OK to add value
14:53:55 <SeanPatterson> Jo: Proxies can add value for dumb servers
14:54:26 <Rhys> q?
14:54:27 <SeanPatterson> Jo: There is a higher level of value-add.  Should we aspire to that in these guidelines?
14:54:52 <SeanPatterson> Volume one of the guidelines could be just how everyone gets out of everyone's way
14:55:09 <SeanPatterson> Volume two could be a higher level of CT
14:55:36 <SeanPatterson> Rhys: Agree with Jo; we should just focus on guidelines to keep things from breaking
14:55:53 <Bryan> want to reserve judgement on that
14:55:55 <Bryan> q+
14:56:10 <SeanPatterson> Rhys: Does anyone disagree that we should just be doing basic things in the first guidelines document?
14:57:33 <SeanPatterson> Rhys: The communication between various parties should flow up and down.
14:57:57 <SeanPatterson> There shouldn't be distributed transformation in the first guidelines document
14:58:24 <Magnus> q+
14:58:27 <SeanPatterson> Jo: These guidelines will be about preventing transformation from happening anywhere or facilitating it happening in just one place.
14:58:35 <Rhys> ack Bryan
14:58:47 <SeanPatterson> Bryan: Not sure I agree with this.  Want to reserve judgment on it.
14:59:18 <SeanPatterson> Magnus: Also uncertain about Jo's last statement that there shouldn't be distributed transformations.
14:59:39 <SeanPatterson> Need to handle the case where neither the client or server knows that the proxy is there.
15:00:09 <jo> ack m
15:00:09 <SeanPatterson> Rhys: That is an important use case.
15:00:50 <SeanPatterson> Rhys: Propose that we start to build the guidelines that assume transformation occurs in only one place
15:00:58 <Zakim> -Bryan?
15:01:07 <SeanPatterson> and see if anything else comes out of it.
15:01:11 <Zakim> -jo
15:01:14 <Zakim> -kemp
15:01:16 <Zakim> -Rhys
15:01:17 <Zakim> -Magnus
15:01:19 <Magnus> Magnus has left #bpwg
15:01:20 <Zakim> -rob
15:01:21 <Zakim> -SeanPatterson
15:01:24 <jo> [thanks Sean for Scribing (again!)]
15:01:28 <rob> rob has left #bpwg
15:01:29 <Zakim> -AndrewSwainston
15:01:31 <Zakim> MWI_BPWG(BCTF)10:00AM has ended
15:01:33 <Zakim> Attendees were Rhys, Bryan, jo, Magnus, +1.519.880.aaaa, kemp, SeanPatterson, +079320aabb, rob, AndrewSwainston, +1.206.612.aacc, Bryan?
15:02:12 <jo> Present: Rhys, Bryan, Jo, Magnus, Aaron, Sean, Rob, Andrew
15:02:26 <jo> Chair: Rhys
15:02:34 <jo> RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:02:34 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/23-bpwg-minutes.html jo
15:03:10 <jo> Regrets: (none)
15:07:09 <jo> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:07:09 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/23-bpwg-minutes.html jo
15:07:13 <jo> zakim, bye
15:07:13 <Zakim> Zakim has left #bpwg