IRC log of aria on 2007-10-17

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13:13:17 [anne]

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13:13:35 [Rich]

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13:14:57 [Rich]

Can we agree on a way to adopt role between xml markups that will also be consumed by HTML and how would this be consumed by SVG?

13:14:57 [Rich]

How can we support base ARIA role values without requiring a namespace (a request of the HTML working group)?

13:14:57 [Rich]

Would the use of aria-property be acceptable for xhtml and html and how would this be consumed by SVG?

13:14:57 [Rich]

How do we support role values in xml-based markup and html based mark up?

13:15:09 [hsivonen]

I got the note

13:21:45 [aaronlev]

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13:21:58 [Rich]

scribe: Rich

13:22:08 [Rich]

Topic: use of aria-property

13:22:40 [Rich]

Doug: can use aria namespace to reference aria

13:23:19 [Rich]

henri: authors need to know how to implemnt aria support in svg browsers/plugins

13:23:44 [Rich]

Doug: the place to state this is in ARIA and this could be coordinated with SVG

13:24:55 [Rich]

henri: If svg agreed that all aria properties are defined in the aria spec. then are ok.

13:25:17 [Rich]

Doug: by puttin aria- as the prefix you are actually name spacing

13:25:23 [Rich]

s/puttin/putting/

13:25:51 [Rich]

Doug: we don't need to import the complexity of namespaces in an aria spec to address namespaces

13:26:34 [Rich]

Doug: there is no complexity that is solved

13:27:14 [Rich]

Anne: You can use aribitrary prefixes

13:27:37 [Rich]

Aaron: you cannot use colons for attribute selectors in Internet explorer

13:27:59 [Rich]

Doug: I just want to establish that we are using namespaces no matter what. Can we agree on that?

13:28:45 [Rich]

Henri: I think you are confusing the issue.

13:28:51 [Rich]

Doug: I am clarifying it

13:29:29 [Rich]

Rich: you are just saying that we are using namespacing by even using aria- even though we are not using the namespace syntax

13:29:51 [Rich]

Doug: yes you are avoiding using the namespace syntax.

13:30:22 [Rich]

Doug: the only thing old validators know about are using the : prefix

13:30:51 [Rich]

Doug: anything that is w3c specified would have a problem w/o the :

13:31:55 [Rich]

Anne: you said it would break all user agents if you used aria-.

13:32:13 [Rich]

Doug: we would require buy in by all the vendors. Not saying we can't but it is a big job.

13:33:19 [Rich]

Henri: I can support either the : or - syntax in xml. But if are using svg in text/html using the : way and addressing all the namespaces that come with it we will have a problem since the - or : is invalid

13:33:52 [Rich]

Doug: I did not mean validators. There are other things, besides validators, which would also need to come into line.

13:35:09 [Rich]

Doug: There are things out there that generate SVG and integrate SVG into other namespaces. For example, docbook uses SVG. SVG is included in othter documents like military drawings.

13:35:28 [Rich]

Doug: it is not a simple matter of these things changing.

13:35:43 [Rich]

Doug: we just state that we ignore unknown attributes.

13:37:14 [Rich]

Henri: if the SVG tools followed the rules we are discussing this would not be an issue.

13:37:27 [hsivonen]

(that was Anne)

13:37:34 [hsivonen]

(I agree, though)

13:37:38 [Rich]

thanks henri

13:38:47 [Rich]

Doug: I can see where it is possible to include aria- as a special way of namespacing going forward.

13:39:46 [Rich]

Doug: to be clear, there was a statement before that arbitrary namespaces will work in svg and that is not true.

13:40:10 [Rich]

Henri: we should be using relax schema technology

13:40:32 [Rich]

Doug: I just want to make sure that it was not a correct statement about namespaces.

13:40:40 [Rich]

Anne: svg 1.2 does not use dtds

13:40:51 [Rich]

Anne: browser vendors don't use dtds

13:41:30 [Rich]

Doug: someone made a statement about the flexibity of the - syntax over the : syntax allowed you to process arbitrary strings and that is not true

13:42:29 [Rich]

Doug: it is stated in the xml namespaces spec. that you can use the : prefix.

13:42:48 [Rich]

Anne: you can fix it in the dtd and it is pre-declared.

13:43:17 [Rich]

Anne: the whole point of namespace is that you can use whatever you want

13:44:20 [Rich]

henri: using a - instead of a : makes it easier to integrate in html going down the road.

13:45:06 [Rich]

s/henri: using a - instead of a : makes it easier to integrate in html going down the road. /anne: using a - instead of a : makes it easier to integrate in html going down the road. /

13:47:10 [Rich]

Henri: because we want the html parser to parse existing content and we want new stuff to not break in new browsers we cannot make : act any different in current browsers

13:47:59 [Rich]

Henri: if we are going to use svg in html in IE it will be much easier to do it without :

13:48:45 [Rich]

Rich: so the problem is that IE does not handle the :

13:50:03 [Rich]

Henri: IE does something special with the : in that the conformant DOM. It is a mess.

13:50:49 [Rich]

Aaron: I just wanted to use aria: and I could not use a CSS rule to address namespaces

13:51:33 [Rich]

Aaron: you can use | instead of : in CSS to reference prefixed properties in IE. The hyphen works fine in CSS, the content, everywhere.

13:52:16 [Rich]

Aaron: there is a problem which CSS introduced and it is in a problem with IE

13:53:05 [Rich]

Doug: hyphen is not a good deliminter as it is used throughout SVG.

13:53:19 [Rich]

s/deliminter/delimiter/

13:53:32 [Rich]

Aaron: where is - a problem in SVG

13:53:44 [Rich]

Doug: |-width

13:54:24 [Rich]

Doug: you can use presentation properties.

13:54:48 [Rich]

Henri: this is not a problem as we are not trying to introduce it as a namespace delimiter.

13:55:15 [Rich]

Doug: there is a lot of working going on with other web application formats

13:55:31 [Rich]

Doug: we want for othter groups to import aria into their specs.

13:56:49 [Rich]

Doug: my point is we want open and closed formats to be able to use.

13:57:37 [Rich]

Aaron: I think Doug is saying that he is open to using hyphen but he wants to go through all the thoughts about it.

13:57:58 [Rich]

Doug: yes.

13:58:49 [Rich]

Doug: I am open to using a - and I am still not convinced that : can be used in html

14:01:07 [Rich]

Doug: does aria work now in IE?

14:02:55 [Rich]

Aaron: with a - you can can trigger dynamic updates but without (:) you can

14:03:28 [Rich]

Aaron: you have to work around IE problems when you develop cross-browser script

14:04:20 [Rich]

Aaron: you don't get anything automatically and people describe what they are doing.

14:04:31 [Rich]

Aaron: aria does not drive the behavior

14:09:01 [Rich]

Doug: The - syntax is problematic with multiple user agents as it should be more generic than just aria

14:09:34 [Rich]

Rich: what about underscore?

14:12:26 [Rich]

Doug: I proposed if SVG were to import role we will accept this. but we were then split

14:13:37 [Rich]

Aaron: please propose aria- or aria_ as a compromise to SVG

14:13:43 [Rich]

Topic: role

14:15:00 [Rich]

Doug: SVG does not care if role is in or out of the xhtml namespace.

14:16:09 [Rich]

Doug: we don't want to get attacked on role

14:17:29 [Rich]

Doug: the people who are implementing svg tiny would be a problem. adding role would require going back to last call

14:18:23 [Rich]

Doug: we could add role as part of the core language in a future release.

14:18:42 [Rich]

Henri: both role and aria need to be allowed on all elements

14:18:52 [Rich]

Doug: I think this is an orthogonal issues

14:19:02 [hsivonen]

(that was Anne again :-)

14:19:03 [Rich]

s/this is/these are

14:20:45 [Rich]

henri: I think versioning could address how aria is done

14:23:21 [hsivonen]

rather, I think versioning should get in the way of doing aria

14:23:29 [hsivonen]

shouldn't

14:23:48 [hsivonen]

(I don't really believe in Web language versioning)

14:24:24 [Rich]

Doug: if we had a chart syntax ... these charts have these values is great

14:25:08 [Rich]

aaron: lets work together and get compatible.

14:26:20 [Rich]

Doug: having fixed namespaced prefixes with _ is a good way to move forward

14:32:45 [anne]

RRSAgent, draft minutes

14:32:45 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/17-aria-minutes.html anne

14:32:54 [anne]

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14:33:27 [Rich]

meeting: Cross cutting ARIA property issue discussion

14:33:34 [Rich]

chair: Rich

14:34:12 [Rich]

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14:34:12 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/17-aria-minutes.html Rich

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