IRC log of rdfa on 2007-10-11

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:39:04 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #rdfa
14:39:04 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/10/11-rdfa-irc
14:39:12 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #rdfa
14:39:18 [mhausenblas]
zakim, this will be SW_SWD(RDFa)
14:39:18 [Zakim]
ok, mhausenblas; I see SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM scheduled to start in 21 minutes
14:39:25 [mhausenblas]
Meeting: W3C RDF-in-XHTML TF - Telecon 2007-10-11, 15:00 UTC
14:39:32 [mhausenblas]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Oct/0083.html
14:39:39 [mhausenblas]
-> http://www.w3.org/2007/10/04-rdfa-minutes.html previous 2007-10-04
14:39:46 [mhausenblas]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
14:39:46 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/11-rdfa-minutes.html mhausenblas
14:40:04 [mhausenblas]
RRSAgent, make logs public
14:51:39 [Steven_]
Steven_ has joined #rdfa
14:56:12 [ShaneM]
ShaneM has joined #rdfa
14:56:44 [msporny]
msporny has joined #rdfa
14:56:54 [mhausenblas_]
mhausenblas_ has joined #rdfa
14:58:03 [Steven_]
Steven_ has left #rdfa
14:58:10 [Steven_]
Steven_ has joined #rdfa
15:01:01 [Zakim]
SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has now started
15:01:02 [Zakim]
+ShaneM
15:01:15 [Steven_]
zakim, dial steven-617
15:01:15 [Zakim]
ok, Steven_; the call is being made
15:01:17 [Zakim]
+Steven
15:01:29 [Steven_]
zakim, who is here?
15:01:29 [Zakim]
On the phone I see ShaneM, Steven
15:01:33 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Steven_, mhausenblas_, msporny, ShaneM, Zakim, RRSAgent, Ralph, myakura, mhausenblas, Simone, kwijibo
15:01:50 [benadida]
benadida has joined #rdfa
15:02:01 [Zakim]
+mhausenblas
15:02:48 [mhausenblas_]
Chair: Ben
15:02:55 [Zakim]
+Ralph
15:02:56 [Zakim]
-Ralph
15:02:58 [Zakim]
+Ralph
15:03:07 [mhausenblas_]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:03:07 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/11-rdfa-minutes.html mhausenblas_
15:03:19 [Zakim]
+benadida
15:03:45 [benadida]
zakim, who is on the phone?
15:03:45 [Zakim]
On the phone I see ShaneM, Steven, +043316aaaa, Ralph, +1.617.395.aabb
15:04:03 [mhausenblas_]
Zakim, aaaa is me
15:04:03 [Zakim]
+mhausenblas_; got it
15:04:03 [benadida]
zakim, i am aabb
15:04:04 [Zakim]
ok, benadida, I now associate you with +1.617.395.aabb
15:04:29 [Zakim]
+??P5
15:04:40 [msporny]
zakim, i am +??P5
15:04:40 [Zakim]
sorry, msporny, I do not see a party named '+??P5'
15:04:51 [msporny]
zakim, i am ??P5
15:04:51 [Zakim]
+msporny; got it
15:05:33 [Steven_]
zakim, wh ois here?
15:05:33 [Zakim]
I don't understand your question, Steven_.
15:05:38 [Steven_]
zakim, who is here?
15:05:38 [Zakim]
On the phone I see ShaneM, Steven, mhausenblas_, Ralph, +1.617.395.aabb, msporny
15:05:40 [Zakim]
On IRC I see benadida, Steven_, mhausenblas_, msporny, ShaneM, Zakim, RRSAgent, Ralph, myakura, Simone, kwijibo
15:05:53 [kwijibo]
kwijibo has left #rdfa
15:06:10 [Steven]
zakim, I am dog
15:06:10 [Zakim]
sorry, Steven, I do not see a party named 'dog'
15:06:30 [benadida]
zakim, pick a victim
15:06:30 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose mhausenblas_
15:06:37 [markbirbeck]
markbirbeck has joined #rdfa
15:07:25 [Steven]
;-) you mean
15:07:25 [mhausenblas]
scribenick: mhausenblas
15:07:43 [mhausenblas]
ACTION: Ben to set up a proper scribe schedule
15:07:45 [Steven]
rrsagent, pointer?
15:07:45 [RRSAgent]
See http://www.w3.org/2007/10/11-rdfa-irc#T15-07-45
15:08:16 [Steven]
Steven has changed the topic to: Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Oct/0083
15:08:21 [mhausenblas]
Topic: Action Items
15:09:33 [mhausenblas]
[NEW] ACTION: Ben to add status of various implementations on rdfa.info [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/04-rdfa-minutes.html#action06]
15:09:39 [mhausenblas]
-- continues
15:10:05 [Steven]
http://rdfa.info/rdfa-implementations/
15:10:32 [mhausenblas]
[NEW] ACTION: Ben to bring non-prefixed @rel issue to email [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/04-rdfa-minutes.html#action13]
15:10:35 [mhausenblas]
-- done
15:12:05 [markbirbeck]
zakim, code?
15:12:05 [Zakim]
the conference code is 7332 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), markbirbeck
15:12:15 [mhausenblas]
Ben: We need to sort this out - wait for Mark
15:12:40 [mhausenblas]
... @rel support for backwards compatibility
15:12:46 [mhausenblas]
[NEW] ACTION: Michael add Fabien's proposed tests to the test suite archive [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/04-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]
15:12:48 [mhausenblas]
-- done
15:12:52 [Zakim]
+??P21
15:12:56 [mhausenblas]
[NEW] ACTION: Michael add Ivan's proposed tests to the test suite [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/04-rdfa-minutes.html#action10]
15:12:59 [mhausenblas]
-- done
15:12:59 [markbirbeck]
zakim, i am ?
15:12:59 [Zakim]
+markbirbeck; got it
15:13:04 [mhausenblas]
-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Oct/0078.html New Test Cases
15:13:36 [mhausenblas]
Ben: Mark, we were just discussing @rel issues
15:14:14 [mhausenblas]
... should add default values or drop them?
15:14:31 [mhausenblas]
Mark: Kind of taxonomy of useful values
15:14:55 [mhausenblas]
Ben: As @property is a new attribute ...
15:15:08 [mhausenblas]
Steven: @property replaces @name
15:15:55 [mhausenblas]
Mark: @name is still there
15:16:09 [mhausenblas]
... some interesting use cases came up recently
15:16:22 [mhausenblas]
... wonder if we need a 1:1 correspondance
15:16:30 [Ralph]
q+ to say that @property is the new @name but we don't have syntax compatibility concerns that require us to back fit existing usage
15:17:58 [mhausenblas]
Ralph: Support Marks comment; we should discourage for new written documents
15:18:01 [msporny]
q+ to mention that parsers always have the option to generate legacy triples in @name
15:18:09 [mhausenblas]
ack Ralph
15:18:09 [Zakim]
Ralph, you wanted to say that @property is the new @name but we don't have syntax compatibility concerns that require us to back fit existing usage
15:18:19 [Ralph]
s/discourage/discourage unprefixed usage/
15:18:22 [Steven]
{meta name="dc.creator" property="dc:creator" content="Mark Birbeck"/}
15:18:31 [Steven]
s/{/</
15:18:35 [Steven]
s/}/>/
15:20:03 [msporny]
q-
15:20:26 [mhausenblas]
Ben: So we should not have non-prefixed values for @propery
15:20:41 [mhausenblas]
s/@propery/@property
15:21:13 [mhausenblas]
Mark: Basically agree
15:22:05 [mhausenblas]
... need to check for consistency
15:23:05 [mhausenblas]
Ben: Resolve it via mailing list
15:25:55 [mhausenblas]
[PENDING] ACTION: Ben to look into Science Commons use case [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/11-htmltf-minutes.html#action04]
15:26:05 [mhausenblas]
-- done
15:27:27 [mhausenblas]
[PENDING] ACTION: Michael make sure to confirm a design for checking that the ASK SPARQL queries evaluate (yes/no) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/09/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action07]
15:29:57 [mhausenblas]
-- continues
15:30:23 [mhausenblas]
Michael will write up a proposal how to mark it up in th manifest
15:30:39 [mhausenblas]
[PENDING] ACTION: Michael to create "Microformats done right -- unambiguous taxonomies via RDF" on the wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/23-rdfa-minutes.html#action06]
15:30:46 [mhausenblas]
-- continues
15:31:00 [mhausenblas]
Topic: Summary of F2F
15:31:05 [Ralph]
-> http://www.w3.org/2007/10/08-swd-minutes.html#item01 F2F discussion
15:31:21 [mhausenblas]
Steven: All SWD participants were very convinced
15:31:33 [mhausenblas]
... and Mark's slides were very nice
15:32:57 [mhausenblas]
Mark: Good vibes - very encouraging
15:34:21 [mhausenblas]
Ben: Good work. Still, we need to continue to work hard
15:34:54 [Steven]
s/slides were very nice/slides were not needed/
15:35:17 [mhausenblas]
Michael: -> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/RDFa/ImplReport SWD action on RDFa Implementation
15:36:18 [mhausenblas]
Steven: Depends on exit criteria
15:36:47 [mhausenblas]
... need two independent implementation
15:36:56 [mhausenblas]
Raplh: Will add examples to the Wiki
15:37:25 [mhausenblas]
s/Raplh/Ralph/
15:37:40 [mhausenblas]
Steven: tick is important
15:38:37 [mhausenblas]
Topic: New Test Cases
15:38:51 [Steven]
s/need two independent implementation/if we decide we need two implementations for exit from CR< then we need two columns, one for each implementation, with a tick for each test passed/
15:38:56 [mhausenblas]
-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Oct/0078.html New Test Cases
15:39:13 [Ralph]
scribenick: ralph
15:39:31 [Ralph]
-- test 46
15:39:34 [Ralph]
-> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/testsuite/xhtml1-testcases/Test0046 test 46
15:40:06 [Ralph]
Michael: test 46 - 53 are all @instanceof with various combinations of other attributes
15:41:57 [Ralph]
Ralph: find a different property than foaf:knows so the semantics of the relationship between the page and John Doe is correct
15:42:23 [Ralph]
... e.g. foaf:depicts ?
15:42:32 [Ralph]
Michael: probably;
15:42:42 [benadida]
ACTION: Michael to find a more appropriate predicate than foaf:knows for TC46-53
15:42:44 [benadida]
e.g. foaf:maker
15:42:45 [Ralph]
Manu: foaf:maker ?
15:43:11 [Steven]
dc:creator?
15:43:49 [Ralph]
Ralph: this test is consisent with our decision, yes. I still question some details of the decision
15:44:35 [Ralph]
Mark: this is the debate about @instanceof -- isn't that debate still open?
15:44:57 [Ralph]
Ben: not still open, we've decided that @instanceof without @about applies to the object bnode
15:45:25 [Ralph]
Mark: the debate is whether @instanceof applies to the subject or to the object
15:46:00 [ShaneM]
Certainly in this: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2007/ED-rdfa-syntax-20070927/#s_rdfaindetail it says the issue is open.
15:46:12 [Ralph]
Ralph: I think this was the decision, even if I disagree with it :)
15:46:38 [msporny]
+1 for test case 46
15:47:44 [Ralph]
Shane: the point of the note in the document is that the document is not clear on this decision
15:47:57 [mhausenblas]
-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Oct/0001 Ivan's comment
15:48:33 [mhausenblas]
-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Sep/0202.html @instanceof
15:49:13 [Ralph]
Ben: there may be an issue with the way the rules are described
15:49:34 [Ralph]
... but without looking at the processing rules, can we agree or disagree that the proposed triples are what we want?
15:51:02 [Ralph]
Mark: the DIV could create a bnode _:y
15:51:20 [Ralph]
... with _:y foaf:knows _:x
15:51:31 [Ralph]
... and _:y rdf:type _:x
15:51:41 [Ralph]
s/_:x/foaf:Peraon/
15:51:46 [Ralph]
s/Peraon/Person/
15:51:59 [Ralph]
Ben: @@
15:52:10 [Ralph]
Mark: DIV with just @rel is unambiguous
15:53:07 [Ralph]
Ralph: a useful interpretation would be (though in this case semantically incorrect) 0046.xhtml rdf:type foaf:Person
15:53:23 [Ralph]
Ben: that interpretation would violate all our rules about @instanceof
15:53:52 [Ralph]
Ben: gets confusing if you think about it as more than one bnode
15:54:01 [Ralph]
... but easier if there's just one bnode that is the chaining element
15:54:06 [Ralph]
Mark: too many special cases going on
15:54:17 [Ralph]
... the one I'm happy with is when @rel sits on its own
15:54:46 [Ralph]
Ben: if @rel causes chaining, it has to identify the chaining subject
15:55:12 [Ralph]
Mark: @rel traditionally applies to the document, regardless of where it sits; i.e. in traditional HTML @rel applies to the global document
15:55:25 [Ralph]
... we've added the ability to specify the subject
15:56:17 [Ralph]
... if @rel applies to the thing above it, or when there's nothing above it, it gets confusing
15:58:21 [Ralph]
Michael: @instanceof is syntactic sugar for @rel w/ @href
15:58:45 [Ralph]
Ben: no, @instance of is really sugar for LINK with @rel ...
15:59:51 [Ralph]
Ralph: consider test 50
16:01:13 [Ralph]
Mark: I thought that this issue was connected to the issue of what to do with @about
16:01:16 [mhausenblas]
Michael: in TC 50 there should be a bNode as subject IMHO
16:01:44 [Ralph]
Ben: test 50 looks very wrong to me
16:01:55 [Ralph]
Ralph: I agree that 46 and 50 are contradictory
16:02:26 [Ralph]
Ben: test 50 needs a bnode
16:02:30 [Ralph]
... it's always the same bnode
16:02:41 [Ralph]
... and the bnode is the object of the outer statement
16:02:58 [Ralph]
Mark: and if there were an @about it would give a name to the bnode
16:03:10 [Ralph]
... and if you add @rel, what's changed?
16:03:42 [Ralph]
Ben: @instanceof inherits @about
16:04:13 [Ralph]
Mark: @instanceof still belongs in the list of predicates; the predicate happens to be rdf:type
16:04:35 [benadida]
<div resource="#foo" instanceof="foo:bar">
16:04:36 [benadida]
</div>
16:04:58 [Ralph]
Mark: that example is a grey area in my model
16:05:19 [Ralph]
Ben: I thought we'd agreed that this was <#foo> rdf:type <foo:bar>
16:05:37 [Ralph]
Mark: end up using @about and @resource interchangeably
16:05:41 [benadida]
<div href="#foo" instanceo="foo:bar"></div>
16:06:31 [Ralph]
Mark: I really don't like that @href is chaining
16:06:39 [Ralph]
q+
16:08:56 [Ralph]
Ralph: tests 46 - 53 are inconsistent
16:09:24 [Ralph]
... they also have typos; e.g. the URI in 50 is clearly not mentioned anywhere
16:09:44 [Ralph]
... suggest that each of us look at 46 - 53 and propose what we think are the fixes to the inconsistencies
16:11:24 [Ralph]
ACTION: All look at tests 46 - 53 and write what you believe the correct triples are
16:12:02 [benadida]
schedule -> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/RDFa#RDFa_schedule
16:12:03 [Ralph]
Topic: Schedule
16:12:41 [Ralph]
scribenick: mhausenblas
16:12:58 [mhausenblas]
Ben: 15 Nov is the strict deadline
16:13:11 [mhausenblas]
... for the syntax doc
16:13:31 [mhausenblas]
Steven: Out ASAP
16:13:48 [mhausenblas]
Shane: Need to address some issues from SWD F2F
16:14:12 [mhausenblas]
Mark: True but no critical ones
16:14:18 [Steven]
31 Oct is the drop dead date for this draft
16:14:56 [mhausenblas]
Ben: What is the next possible date for new syntax?
16:14:57 [Ralph]
q+
16:15:05 [mhausenblas]
Mark: 2007-10-16
16:15:46 [mhausenblas]
Steven: Wil take care for publication (from Shane)
16:15:52 [mhausenblas]
s/Wil/Will
16:16:06 [mhausenblas]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:16:07 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/11-rdfa-minutes.html mhausenblas
16:16:34 [mhausenblas]
Shane: I'll start today and work all night :)
16:16:43 [ShaneM]
'cause I have no life.
16:16:59 [Ralph]
Shane: I will signal Steven when the doc is ready to publish
16:17:02 [Steven]
XHTML2 WG ratified the decision to publish
16:17:03 [mhausenblas]
Ben: Primer in upcoming week
16:17:15 [mhausenblas]
Ralph: Will suport Ben
16:17:25 [mhausenblas]
s/suport/support
16:17:37 [mhausenblas]
Ben: Need to work hard till the end of the year!
16:17:39 [Ralph]
Ben: I will signal Ralph when the Primer is ready to publish
16:17:58 [mhausenblas]
Ben: I'll be on vacation from 18-24 Oct
16:18:08 [Ralph]
Regrets for 25 Oct
16:18:26 [Ralph]
Ben: I cannot chair on the 25th
16:18:54 [Ralph]
Michael: regrets for 25 Oct
16:19:04 [mhausenblas]
Michael: I'm on travel on 25th
16:19:17 [Ralph]
Steven: at risk for 18 Oct
16:19:20 [mhausenblas]
Steven: 18th is on risk
16:20:07 [mhausenblas]
Ben: Nice work Mark and Shane
16:20:13 [Zakim]
-ShaneM
16:20:14 [Zakim]
-Steven
16:20:15 [Zakim]
-mhausenblas_
16:20:17 [Zakim]
-markbirbeck
16:20:18 [Zakim]
-msporny
16:20:19 [Zakim]
-Ralph
16:20:20 [Zakim]
- +1.617.395.aabb
16:20:21 [Zakim]
SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has ended
16:20:22 [Zakim]
Attendees were ShaneM, Steven, mhausenblas, Ralph, benadida, mhausenblas_, msporny, markbirbeck
16:20:28 [mhausenblas]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:20:28 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/11-rdfa-minutes.html mhausenblas
16:20:33 [Ralph]
zakim, bye
16:20:33 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #rdfa
16:21:49 [Ralph]
rrsagent, bye
16:21:49 [RRSAgent]
I see 3 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/11-rdfa-actions.rdf :
16:21:49 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Ben to set up a proper scribe schedule [1]
16:21:49 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/11-rdfa-irc#T15-07-43
16:21:49 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Michael to find a more appropriate predicate than foaf:knows for TC46-53 [2]
16:21:49 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/11-rdfa-irc#T15-42-42
16:21:49 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: All look at tests 46 - 53 and write what you believe the correct triples are [3]
16:21:49 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/11-rdfa-irc#T16-11-24