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07:22:50 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/10/04-i18nits-irc
07:23:35 <fsasaki> meeting: ITS WG - Prague 2007 f2f
07:23:38 <fsasaki> chair: Yves
07:23:41 <fsasaki> scribe: Felix
07:23:44 <fsasaki> scribeNick: fsasaki
07:24:04 <fsasaki> present: Yves, Richard, Jirka, Felix
07:24:13 <fsasaki> regrets: Christian, Bartosz
07:24:28 <fsasaki> agenda: http://www.w3.org/International/its/ftf-200710-Prague.html#Objective
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07:29:07 <fsasaki> minutes of day 1 at http://www.w3.org/2007/10/02-i18nits-minutes.html
07:29:13 <fsasaki> minutes of day 2 at http://www.w3.org/2007/10/03-i18nits-minutes.html
07:30:39 <Jirka> Jirka has joined #i18nits
07:31:39 <fsasaki> topic: agenda review
07:32:13 <fsasaki> Yves: 1/2, until lunch, we discuss general BP issues, see http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-its/2007OctDec/0000.html
07:32:34 <fsasaki> .. after lunch we discuss future of ITS activities, and outreach things like its2xliff
07:32:47 <fsasaki> topic: general issues
07:33:15 <fsasaki> continuation of ISSUE-42 Position of "For existing DTD and schema:" material and material about new schemas
07:33:50 <fsasaki> Yves: will come back to that later
07:33:57 <fsasaki> Now ISSUE-43 Relation of "why do this" and "how to do this" material.
07:34:17 <fsasaki> We have how to do information in the "why to do" section and "why to do section" that relates only to new schemas.
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07:40:30 <fsasaki> Felix: in minutes of day one http://www.w3.org/2007/10/02-i18nits-minutes.html , we saw this issue in BP 1, BP 7 
07:40:48 <fsasaki> .. we also said that in the BP for authors, the distinction between "How to do this" and "Why do this"  is getting lost
07:51:15 <fsasaki> Discussion brings proposal to have a paragraph in the beginning of the documet explaining the pattern for BPs
07:51:50 <fsasaki> next, we need to check each BP whether "how to do this" and "why to do this" material is in the appropriate place
07:52:50 <fsasaki> for some cases, we may add a paragraph (or more) between the blue text and the "How do this" which explains what we are talking about, e..g for ruby
07:54:04 <fsasaki> agreement next issue
07:54:24 <fsasaki> ISSUE-44 Mentioning of data categories
07:58:34 <fsasaki> Richard: links should go to the data category sections, not to the formal definitions
07:59:13 <fsasaki> e..g  have a  link for "Translate" data category like http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/REC-its-20070403/#trans-datacat
07:59:50 <fsasaki> ... and *not* e.g. http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/REC-its-20070403/#translateRule
08:03:10 <fsasaki> discussion reveals that this also relates to ISSUE-45
08:03:25 <fsasaki> "What links should be in the resources section, how do you choose that?"
08:09:41 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/04-i18nits-minutes.html fsasaki
08:11:40 <fsasaki> Yves: I'll need to check all the grey text and come up with new descriptions of the links, and do that on all BP case by case & globally
08:11:52 <fsasaki> .. and think about a new category, if necessray
08:12:05 <fsasaki> .. this resolves ISSUE-45, back to ISSUE-44
08:26:55 <fsasaki> ISSUE-44 is resolved as: 
08:27:17 <fsasaki> text behind blue text is a description of what the BP is, *without* a relation to the data category
08:27:53 <fsasaki> for the BP where the solution for the new stuff has to do with the data category, we mention ITS
08:28:00 <r12a-CZ> also
08:28:57 <r12a-CZ> "Make sure the its:dir attribute is defined for the root element " could become something like "The ITS 'directionality' data category provides the its:dir attribute. Ensure that this is defined for the root element "
08:29:37 <r12a-CZ> with a link to the data category on the 'data category' text and a link to the formal definition of its:dir on the 'its:dir' text
08:31:13 <fsasaki> ISSUE-46 Links to sec. 4 general issue: there need to be more references from sec. 2 and sec. 3 to sec. 4
08:31:37 <fsasaki> agreed on that, move on
08:31:57 <fsasaki> ISSUE-47 Style of language http://www.w3.org/2007/10/02-i18nits-minutes.html#item02 use more active voice, addressing reader with "you" etc., less passive
08:36:31 <fsasaki> Richard will work on that, and we will try to recruite other readers
08:37:27 <fsasaki> Jirka will produce an XSL-FO document for PDF generation
08:52:15 <fsasaki> topic: future of ITS activities
08:52:44 <fsasaki> current charter at http://www.w3.org/2004/11/i18n-recharter/its-charter
08:54:02 <fsasaki> Yves: plan is to be finished with BP document within this charter period - what to do after?
09:13:22 <fsasaki> Rough consensus of f2f participants:
09:13:34 <fsasaki> - Have an IG for 2 years
09:14:03 <fsasaki> -  Scope: outreach (coordinated with i18n activity)
09:14:22 <fsasaki> - Gathering of possible requirements of possible features of ITS 1.0 / problems of current features
09:14:50 <fsasaki> - (errata will not be handled, but IG might give input to a WG which handles them)
09:15:22 <fsasaki> - Part of the outreach: helping out potential ITS implementers
09:15:39 <fsasaki> - Overall goal: to gather an ITS users and implementers community
09:16:07 <fsasaki> - workload: no regular calls or f2f, adhoc calls
09:16:12 <fsasaki> - (and meetings)
09:16:51 <fsasaki> - MLs mostly, in addition mainting a page with potential issues / new features
09:17:01 <fsasaki> s/a page/pages/
09:17:52 <fsasaki> - Mostly administrative support from W3C staff on a low scale
09:18:31 <fsasaki> s/features/features and implementation news/
09:20:13 <fsasaki> - "ML" means: a *new* ML for the IG
09:21:45 <fsasaki> (not sure if ITS WG MLs (public and member) will be closed, need to check)
09:23:30 <fsasaki> action: Yves to write a mail to WG about the plan for the future of ITS activities, see http://www.w3.org/2007/10/04-i18nits-irc#T09-21-45
09:23:30 <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-32 - Write a mail to WG about the plan for the future of ITS activities, see http://www.w3.org/2007/10/04-i18nits-irc#T09-21-45 [on Yves Savourel - due 2007-10-11].
09:26:00 <fsasaki> topic: outreach
09:26:24 <fsasaki> links page at http://www.w3.org/International/its/links.html
09:30:48 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/04-i18nits-minutes.html fsasaki
09:33:17 <fsasaki> category 1 implementations are not listed on the page
09:33:46 <fsasaki> see e.g. BP document
09:35:23 <fsasaki> for examples of how ITS can be used. However, "real" implementations like SML 3.0+ITS (if available) would be nicer
09:39:10 <fsasaki> gather a repository for various formats
09:39:26 <fsasaki> (rules files for various formats)
09:45:34 <fsasaki> about talks: we will have a talk at Unicode conference in two weeks, some more talks next week possibly
09:46:52 <fsasaki> topic: its2xliff
09:47:05 <fsasaki> - See http://WWW/International/its/its2xliff/build.xml
09:47:07 <fsasaki> - Input: XML document with local ITS markup or global rules. Example http://www.w3.org/International/its/its2xliff/inputdoc.xml
09:47:08 <fsasaki> - Implementation implements: local and global "Translate" data category, globally (via xlink:href) linked rules. Besides xlink:href, currently no implementation specific mechanism to apply external global rules.
09:47:10 <fsasaki> - Output 1): File with "flattened ITS information", that is: document tree is augmented with (a) "its-transval-elem" attributes for elements, and (b) similar attributes for attributes. (b) takes namespace prefix and no (or default) namespaces into account. Example: http://www.w3.org/International/its/its2xliff/flattenITSoutput.xml
09:47:11 <fsasaki>  <TITLE
09:47:13 <fsasaki> (a)  its-transval-elem="yes"
09:47:14 <fsasaki>      id="title1"
09:47:16 <fsasaki> (b)  transval-attr-p----p-id="no"
09:47:17 <fsasaki>       >X: IMPROVING PURCHASING MANAGEMENT AND BUDGET MONITORING</TITLE>
09:47:19 <fsasaki> - Output 2): XLIFF file generated from 1). Example: http://www.w3.org/International/its/its2xliff/xliffoutput.xml .
09:47:21 <fsasaki> - Java implementation: currently generates output 1) for local ITS markup. Working on global and linked rules.
09:47:24 <fsasaki> - Questions: is output useful? Other output than XLIFF necessary? What options are useful?
10:00:27 <fsasaki> PO files for gettext would be useful output 
10:00:31 <fsasaki> (GNUGETTEXT)
10:00:48 <fsasaki> opportunity to have an external file with rules
10:01:14 <fsasaki> having both XSLT and java implementation as an open source project e.g. at sourceforge
10:02:12 <fsasaki> TMX output
10:02:46 <fsasaki> project title should be generic, e.g. "ITS processor"
10:04:22 <fsasaki> test suite output
10:04:29 <fsasaki> run against test suite
10:05:37 <fsasaki> (IG charter idea: should IG gather tests for test suite extension?)
10:07:32 <fsasaki> extensions to ITS: idPointer, targetPointer
10:07:50 <fsasaki> (IG group should gather requirments for extensions)
10:08:03 <fsasaki> extension for white space handling
10:09:23 <fsasaki> (like a global xml:space)
10:09:44 <fsasaki> extension for identifying content (e.g. element with XHTML or Javascript)
10:12:27 <fsasaki> using not XPath for global rules, but just a list of elements or schema annotations, useful for editors who cannot handle XPath for ITS sensitive editing
10:15:49 <fsasaki> alternative to XPath might be CSS
10:16:49 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/04-i18nits-minutes.html fsasaki
10:18:11 <fsasaki> topic: AOB
10:18:20 <fsasaki> no other agenda items!
10:22:03 <fsasaki> early adjourn :) , we work offline at implementing resolutsions in the afternoon
10:22:13 <fsasaki> s/resolutsions /resolutions/
10:22:20 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/04-i18nits-minutes.html fsasaki
10:34:02 <fsasaki> WG thanks to Jirka and the Department of Information and Knowledge Engineering at the University of Economics Prague for the great hosting!
10:34:09 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/04-i18nits-minutes.html fsasaki
11:57:41 <r12a-CZ> http://rishida.net/blog/
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13:28:32 <fsasaki> topic: meeting started again
13:30:22 <fsasaki> Discussion of what links to use - "latest or this version" links
13:30:43 <fsasaki> In some cases like xml:lang, only latest version links might be appropriate
13:31:13 <fsasaki> In others like the ITS spec, this version links might be better, since the spec changes more than the XML spec
13:32:20 <fsasaki> We need to go get feedback from others what to do . E.g. have http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-xml/#sec-lang-tag or http://www.w3.org/TR/2006/REC-xml-20060816/#sec-lang-tag
13:32:44 <fsasaki> s/what links/what links within the text body/
13:33:12 <fsasaki> action: Felix to check links usage - latest version or not
13:33:12 <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-33 - Check links usage - latest version or not [on Felix Sasaki - due 2007-10-11].
13:49:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/04-i18nits-minutes.html fsasaki
14:05:43 <r12a-CZ> In scripts such as Arabic and Hebrew text may run from both left to right and right to left. Directional markup is needed to manage directionality over and above the Unicode bidirectional algorithm.
14:08:00 <r12a-CZ> In scripts such as Arabic and Hebrew text may run from both left to right and right to left. Directional markup allows you to manage the flow of characters over and above the Unicode bidirectional algorithm.
14:10:24 <r12a-CZ> In scripts such as Arabic and Hebrew characters may run from both left to right and right to left. Directional markup allows you to manage the flow of characters.
14:10:24 <fsasaki> In scripts such as Arabic and Hebrew text may run from both left to right and right to left. Directional markup allows you to manage the flow of characters thouroughly.
14:10:30 <r12a-CZ> In scripts such as Arabic and Hebrew characters may run from both left to right and right to left. Directional markup allows you to manage the flow of characters.
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