IRC log of swd on 2007-10-02

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:53:16 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #swd

14:53:16 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/10/02-swd-irc

14:53:28 [edsu]

RRSAgent: bookmark

14:53:28 [RRSAgent]

See http://www.w3.org/2007/10/02-swd-irc#T14-53-28

14:53:37 [edsu]

zakim, this will be swd

14:53:37 [Zakim]

ok, edsu; I see SW_SWD()11:00AM scheduled to start in 7 minutes

14:54:06 [edsu]

Meeting: SWD WG

14:54:14 [edsu]

Chair: Guus

14:54:40 [edsu]

Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2007Oct/0002.html

14:55:33 [TomB]

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14:55:42 [edsu]

Previous: http://www.w3.org/2007/09/25-swd-minutes.html

14:56:19 [TomB]

rrsagent, bookmark

14:56:19 [RRSAgent]

See http://www.w3.org/2007/10/02-swd-irc#T14-56-19

14:56:26 [edsu]

hey Tom

14:57:07 [TomB]

need help setting up?

14:57:09 [edsu]

Regrets: Antoine

14:57:17 [TomB]

ah, fine... :-)

14:57:27 [edsu]

i think i've done everything on http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/Scribing.html

14:57:33 [TomB]

excellent :-)

14:57:45 [TomB]

when do you arrive in Amsterdam?

14:57:46 [edsu]

RRSAgent: please make record public

14:58:03 [edsu]

if all goes well on saturday

14:58:18 [edsu]

erm, i mean sunday early am

14:58:19 [TomB]

I'll see you on Sunday then

14:58:32 [edsu]

you arriving on sunday too?

14:58:36 [TomB]

afternoon

14:58:55 [edsu]

looking forward to it :)

14:58:57 [Guus]

Guus has joined #swd

14:59:01 [TomB]

i think we'll have an informal dinner on Sunday

14:59:22 [edsu]

sounds good

14:59:28 [Zakim]

SW_SWD()11:00AM has now started

14:59:37 [Zakim]

+[LC]

14:59:42 [Clay]

Clay has joined #swd

14:59:54 [edsu]

Zakim, LC is edsu

14:59:54 [Zakim]

+edsu; got it

15:00:00 [Zakim]

+??P10

15:00:09 [TomB]

zakim, ??P10 is me

15:00:09 [Zakim]

+TomB; got it

15:00:42 [vit]

vit has joined #swd

15:00:44 [RalphS]

RalphS has joined #swd

15:00:50 [Zakim]

+guus

15:00:53 [Clay]

hi tom, will be on the phone in a sec

15:00:54 [edsu]

Regrets+ Elisa

15:01:34 [Zakim]

+Ralph

15:01:38 [aliman]

aliman has joined #swd

15:01:42 [Zakim]

+[LC]

15:01:43 [Zakim]

+[LC.a]

15:02:10 [JonP]

JonP has joined #swd

15:02:24 [Zakim]

+??P30

15:02:44 [Zakim]

+??P32

15:02:59 [Zakim]

+JonP

15:03:19 [Clay]

Zakim, LC.a is Clay

15:03:19 [Zakim]

+Clay; got it

15:03:22 [Guus]

zakim, who is talking?

15:03:27 [RalphS]

zakim, lc is Justin

15:03:27 [Zakim]

+Justin; got it

15:03:32 [Zakim]

Guus, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: edsu (19%), TomB (10%), Ralph (26%), [LC] (14%)

15:04:14 [Guus]

zakim, who is here?

15:04:17 [Zakim]

On the phone I see edsu, TomB, [VrijeUni], Ralph, Justin, Clay, ??P30, ??P32, JonP

15:04:19 [Zakim]

On IRC I see JonP, aliman, RalphS, vit, Clay, Guus, TomB, RRSAgent, Zakim, edsu

15:04:25 [RalphS]

zakim, ??p30 is Vit

15:04:25 [Zakim]

+Vit; got it

15:04:45 [RalphS]

zakim, ??p32 is Alistair

15:04:45 [Zakim]

+Alistair; got it

15:05:00 [RalphS]

zakim, [vrije is Guus

15:05:00 [Zakim]

+Guus; got it

15:05:32 [Quent]

Quent has joined #swd

15:06:18 [seanb]

seanb has joined #swd

15:06:38 [edsu]

Topic: Admin

15:06:48 [edsu]

Guus: propose to accept minutes

15:06:57 [Zakim]

+??P42

15:07:12 [edsu]

RESOLVED Minutes PROPOSED to accept minutes of 25 Sep telecon: http://www.w3.org/2007/09/25-swd-minutes.html

15:07:13 [RalphS]

zakim, ??p42 is Sean

15:07:13 [Zakim]

+Sean; got it

15:07:27 [Zakim]

+ +012242aaaa

15:08:01 [edsu]

Guus: planning dinner on monday at 8

15:08:32 [edsu]

Guus: will organize informal dinner on Sunday, and send on details later this week

15:08:40 [Quent]

+01224 = Quent

15:08:57 [TomB]

9 am

15:09:06 [edsu]

RalphS: do we know when we will be starting?

15:09:20 [Zakim]

+benadida

15:09:48 [RalphS]

Guus: 0900-1800

15:10:44 [edsu]

Topic: SWD review of "Cool URIs for the Semantic Web

15:10:44 [RalphS]

RaI will arrange the usual telecon access code for the f2f

15:10:50 [RalphS]

s/RaI/I/

15:11:22 [edsu]

TomB: Leo posted to the list about the reviews

15:11:47 [edsu]

... requested that swd summarize things that need to be revised

15:12:02 [edsu]

... I merged the three reviews into a single document that Michael will edit

15:12:20 [edsu]

... Michael proposed we remove style corrections, and focus on points of substance, and I agree

15:12:37 [edsu]

... edit the file down to a short description of the points we need to agree on

15:13:13 [edsu]

... I propose we put that on the agenda for discussion on Monday 5-6

15:14:06 [edsu]

Guus: he can ask us to combine them, but we don't necessarily need to agree on all the comments

15:14:25 [edsu]

RalphS: it's reasonable for him to ask us to discuss amongst ourselves

15:14:26 [TomB]

http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/ReviewCoolURIs

15:14:37 [edsu]

TomB: thanks :)

15:14:50 [edsu]

Guus: any follow up action?

15:15:13 [edsu]

TomB: Michael is going to edit the document down, and if we agree to put it on the agenda then I'll add the various links to the agenda and to the pdf packet

15:15:29 [edsu]

Guus: do we feel it deserves time on our face to face?

15:15:56 [edsu]

TomB: I thought some issues were raised that are worth discussing in the context of vocabulary management, and it would follow on from that

15:16:36 [edsu]

vit: I agree

15:17:04 [edsu]

vit: don't think we'll need much time after vocab management discussion

15:17:23 [edsu]

Guus: i'd like to make it part of vocab management discussion

15:18:00 [edsu]

ACTION: Tom to write cover note to SWEO with links to 3 reviews and summary of main points + send to Working Group mailing list [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/09/25-swd-minutes.html#action02]

15:18:04 [edsu]

--DONE

15:18:30 [edsu]

Topic: SKOS

15:19:27 [edsu]

aliman: still have something to write about simple extension proposal

15:20:45 [edsu]

Guus: alistair and i will finish this up for the f2f

15:20:56 [edsu]

Amsterdam agenda topic: "Label relations" (Guus)

15:21:08 [edsu]

--CONTINUES

15:21:18 [edsu]

Guus: would be good if TomB would chair the discussion

15:21:27 [edsu]

ACTION: Guus to move ISSUE-26 forward

15:21:31 [edsu]

--CONTINUES

15:21:42 [edsu]

CTION: Guus to post user experience reports for ISSUE-25

15:21:57 [edsu]

s/CTION/ACTION/

15:22:04 [edsu]

--CONTINUES

15:22:13 [RalphS]

-> http://purl.org/net/skos/2007/10/f2f/labelling-properties.html Alistair's document on labelling properties

15:22:20 [RalphS]

s/labelling/labeling/

15:23:02 [edsu]

Amsterdam topic "Labeling properties"

15:23:11 [edsu]

RalphS: ok

15:23:25 [RalphS]

s/S:/S,/

15:23:40 [edsu]

aliman: there should be some initial discussion about what the semantics should be and then we'll get into the technical discussion of how we will implement that

15:24:04 [edsu]

Amsterdam topic "Semantic Relation Properties" (Sean)

15:24:16 [edsu]

Guus: is the input in the wiki what we shoudl consider?

15:24:30 [edsu]

seanb: key issue is whether broader/narrower are transitive or not

15:24:51 [edsu]

Guus: the debate around skos queries should make the issue become clearer

15:24:58 [edsu]

Amsterdam topic "Concept Semantics" (Antoine)

15:25:01 [TomB]

q+ to ask Sean if he has readings to add to http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2007Oct/0004.html

15:25:20 [edsu]

seanb: do you want some sort presentation?

15:25:54 [edsu]

Guus: one thing you could do is to make clear what the decision points are -- what the working group needs to decide on

15:26:25 [dlrubin]

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15:26:34 [RalphS]

-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2007Oct/0004.html [Tom] Amsterdam reading packet

15:26:37 [edsu]

TomB: i posted earlier today a list of links to various reading material

15:27:11 [edsu]

TomB: if people have additional readings let me know by tomorrow or thursday, then i'll post the pdf file to the wiki

15:27:29 [edsu]

TomB++

15:27:34 [Zakim]

+??P21

15:27:37 [RalphS]

yes, TomB++

15:27:41 [RalphS]

zakim, ? is Daniel

15:27:41 [Zakim]

+Daniel; got it

15:27:57 [RalphS]

zakim, nick dlrubin is Daniel

15:27:57 [Zakim]

ok, RalphS, I now associate dlrubin with Daniel

15:28:36 [edsu]

Amsterdam topic "Concept Semantics" (Antoine)

15:29:21 [edsu]

ACTION: Antoine to make wiki page or list posting summarizing issues for "Concept Semantics" [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/09/18-swd-minutes.html#action07]

15:29:25 [edsu]

--CONTINUES

15:29:55 [edsu]

Amsterdam topic "Drawing the picture" - no discussion leader yet

15:30:23 [edsu]

Guus: how is this stated on the agenda?

15:30:48 [edsu]

TomB: concept scheme containment was talked about as an aspect of drawing the pictures, so i moved this action to this topic

15:31:23 [edsu]

ACTION: Guus to email a proposal to the list about Issue-36 ConceptSchemeContainment [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/24-swd-minutes.html#action01]

15:31:26 [edsu]

--CONTINUES

15:31:53 [edsu]

Guus: after the f2f we'll bring out new working drafts

15:32:06 [edsu]

... alistair I expect you could use help with that

15:32:29 [edsu]

... unlikely that dan could do that

15:32:43 [edsu]

aliman: haven't heard anything from dan about working on this

15:32:58 [edsu]

Guus: maybe people could think about whether they can help

15:33:23 [edsu]

aliman: skos primer and skos semantics are the documents in question

15:33:51 [edsu]

aliman: primer will need to be much more relaxed language, lots of examples, diagrams -- semantic will need to be formally precise, well worked out

15:33:59 [edsu]

Guus: what do we do first? :)

15:34:10 [edsu]

aliman: so far I've been working on the semantics first

15:34:29 [edsu]

... makes it hard for others to work on, probably have to work on both at the same time

15:34:51 [edsu]

Guus: i would expect that we should be able to write the primer once we've taken a decision on the open issues at the f2f

15:35:02 [edsu]

aliman: we'd have at least 1/2 or the core

15:35:09 [edsu]

... in the primer

15:35:28 [edsu]

Guus: would be nice if a vocabulary owner could be involved in the primer effort

15:35:43 [edsu]

Guus: will be a question that comes up at the f2f

15:36:23 [edsu]

Guus: well before the end of the year we should have either/or (maybe both) the primer and the semantics document published

15:36:38 [edsu]

Topic: RDFA

15:37:07 [RalphS]

-> http://www.w3.org/2007/09/27-rdfa-minutes.html RDFa Task Force meeting record from last week

15:38:18 [edsu]

RalphS: decided whether we can use existing html namespace -- decided to propose a new html namespace, more consistent with semweb practices

15:38:34 [RalphS]

-> http://www.w3.org/2007/09/27-rdfa-minutes.html#item05 XHTML1.1 Namespace for rels

15:38:52 [edsu]

s/RDFA/RDFa/

15:39:39 [edsu]

RalphS: I hope we'll be able to decide at the f2f whether to publish the syntax document

15:39:59 [edsu]

Guus: we should be able to decide to publish the syntax document

15:40:01 [TomB]

q+ to ask who has the action to put RDFa decisions onto the agenda

15:40:07 [edsu]

Guus: and whether to go rec-track

15:40:41 [edsu]

RalphS: different groups make test cases part of the rec-track package

15:40:51 [edsu]

RalphS: we can discuss at f2f

15:41:10 [Zakim]

TomB, you wanted to ask Sean if he has readings to add to http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2007Oct/0004.html and to ask who has the action to put RDFa decisions

15:41:11 [edsu]

Ben: I will be able to join

15:41:13 [Zakim]

... onto the agenda

15:41:46 [edsu]

TomB: who should take the action to add this to the f2f agenda?

15:42:13 [edsu]

Guus: I would hope Ben can link to do this

15:42:48 [RalphS]

(I believe the two documents are already linked from the agenda)

15:43:51 [RalphS]

(Ben, I believe Guus is asking that you send a mail proposing specifically the two questions: Publish First Public Working Draft of RDFa Syntax and Publish new version of RDFa Primer, both on REC track)

15:45:06 [edsu]

ACTION: Ben to send formal request to send mail proposing Draft of RDFa Syntax and Publish new version of RDFa Primer, both on REC track)

15:45:20 [edsu]

Topic: Recipes

15:45:50 [edsu]

Guus: JonP do you expect decisions on these issues (19-24)

15:45:57 [edsu]

JonP: it would be nice

15:46:24 [edsu]

Guus: do you also consider the cool uris to be relevant?

15:46:27 [edsu]

JonP: yes

15:47:04 [edsu]

Topic: Vocabulary Management

15:47:46 [edsu]

Guus: i see lots of discussion points and not many decision points

15:47:58 [edsu]

vit: it's what i'm working on right now

15:48:11 [edsu]

Guus: would be useful to have in advance to f2f

15:48:32 [edsu]

vit: there is one section in the presentation that address these issues, can i post this to the list?

15:48:56 [edsu]

Guus: yes, summarize them for the list

15:49:19 [edsu]

vit: am afraid it will be a little bit abstract, but the presentation will provide context, should be able to send email by tomorrow

15:50:40 [edsu]

ACTION: Vit to lead discussion about Vocabulary Management @ f2f [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/09/25-swd-minutes.html#action17]

15:50:45 [edsu]

--DROPPED

15:51:10 [edsu]

ACTION: Elisa to ask for feedback on VM draft [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/21-swd-minutes.html#action06]

15:51:13 [edsu]

--CONTINUES

15:51:46 [seanb]

seanb has left #swd

15:51:46 [Zakim]

-Justin

15:51:47 [Zakim]

-Clay

15:51:48 [Zakim]

-Daniel

15:51:49 [Zakim]

-Quent

15:51:50 [Zakim]

-Vit

15:51:52 [Zakim]

-Alistair

15:51:53 [Zakim]

-TomB

15:51:53 [dlrubin]

dlrubin has left #swd

15:51:55 [Zakim]

-benadida

15:51:56 [Zakim]

-JonP

15:51:56 [edsu]

Guus: meeting adjourned

15:51:57 [Zakim]

-Ralph

15:51:58 [Zakim]

-Sean

15:52:12 [Zakim]

-edsu

15:52:18 [RalphS]

zakim, list participants

15:52:18 [Zakim]

As of this point the attendees have been edsu, TomB, guus, Ralph, JonP, Clay, Justin, Vit, Alistair, Sean, benadida, Quent, Daniel

15:52:44 [edsu]

rrsagent, please draft minutes

15:52:44 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/02-swd-minutes.html edsu

15:53:03 [Zakim]

-Guus

15:53:05 [Zakim]

SW_SWD()11:00AM has ended

15:53:06 [Zakim]

Attendees were edsu, TomB, guus, Ralph, JonP, Clay, Justin, Vit, Alistair, Sean, benadida, Quent, Daniel

15:54:51 [edsu]

RalphS: you there?

15:56:03 [RalphS]

yes, ed

15:56:46 [RalphS]

zakim, bye

15:56:46 [Zakim]

Zakim has left #swd

15:57:01 [edsu]

ahh i got the irc transcript now, i think i saw a 403 for a bit there

15:57:50 [RalphS]

I see several actions from http://www.w3.org/2007/09/25-swd-minutes.html that didn't get carried forward

15:58:10 [RalphS]

yeah, the -minutes.html file seemed to take a while to be accessible on all the mirrors

15:59:05 [edsu]

yeah, i see them too ralph

15:59:10 [RalphS]

thanks

15:59:12 [edsu]

what's the best thing to do with those?

15:59:19 [RalphS]

I'd just insert them

15:59:23 [edsu]

at the end?

15:59:42 [edsu]

or in the relevant places in the transcript as well?

15:59:42 [RalphS]

yes, in the Summary of Actions

15:59:44 [edsu]

ok

15:59:46 [edsu]

sounds good

15:59:48 [RalphS]

s/yes,/just/

15:59:49 [RalphS]

thanks

16:00:00 [RalphS]

I'll await your edited copy :)

16:00:02 [RalphS]

thanks for scribing

16:00:13 [RalphS]

actually, hang on ..

16:00:21 [edsu]

no worries, sorry you won't be able to make it to amsterdam, was looking forward to meeting you

16:00:25 [RalphS]

you could paste them here right now and regenerate the minutes

16:00:26 [edsu]

k

16:00:31 [edsu]

oh yeah?

16:00:36 [RalphS]

yeah, sorry I won't be able to see folk in A'dam

16:00:47 [edsu]

ok i'll do that

16:00:51 [RalphS]

(but if you regenerate then you'll have to edit out this conversation :)

16:01:10 [edsu]

heh, that shouldn't be hard ...

16:01:15 [RalphS]

your choice

16:07:31 [edsu]

now to find them :)

16:08:04 [edsu]

ACTION: all to register (indicate also that you're not planning to attend and/or want to attend via telecon)

16:08:09 [edsu]

--CONTINUES

16:14:58 [edsu]

ACTION: Alistair to state the difference between the two flavours of the SimpleExtension proposal for issue 26 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/17-swd-minutes.html#action05]

16:15:01 [edsu]

--CONTINUES

16:16:31 [edsu]

ACTION: Diego, Ed and Justin to review RDFa syntax document prior to f2f [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/09/25-swd-minutes.html#action10]

16:16:35 [edsu]

--CONTINUES

16:17:39 [edsu]

ACTION: Ralph propose resolution to ISSUE-16 "Default behavior" [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/22-swd-minutes.html#action14]

16:17:43 [edsu]

--CONTINUES

16:18:38 [edsu]

i think that's all of them

16:19:02 [edsu]

can't remember if we skipped talking about them, or i just zoned out when it came to scribing

16:20:04 [edsu]

rrsagent, please draft minutes

16:20:04 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/02-swd-minutes.html edsu

17:52:55 [RalphS]

rrsagent, bye

17:52:55 [RRSAgent]

I see 11 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/02-swd-actions.rdf :

17:52:55 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Tom to write cover note to SWEO with links to 3 reviews and summary of main points + send to Working Group mailing list [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/09/25-swd-minutes.html#action02] [1]

17:52:55 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/02-swd-irc#T15-18-00

17:52:55 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Guus to move ISSUE-26 forward [2]

17:52:55 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/02-swd-irc#T15-21-27

17:52:55 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Antoine to make wiki page or list posting summarizing issues for "Concept Semantics" [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/09/18-swd-minutes.html#action07] [3]

17:52:55 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/02-swd-irc#T15-29-21

17:52:55 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Guus to email a proposal to the list about Issue-36 ConceptSchemeContainment [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/24-swd-minutes.html#action01] [4]

17:52:55 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/02-swd-irc#T15-31-23

17:52:55 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Ben to send formal request to send mail proposing Draft of RDFa Syntax and Publish new version of RDFa Primer, both on REC track) [5]

17:52:55 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/02-swd-irc#T15-45-06

17:52:55 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Vit to lead discussion about Vocabulary Management @ f2f [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/09/25-swd-minutes.html#action17] [6]

17:52:55 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/02-swd-irc#T15-50-40

17:52:55 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Elisa to ask for feedback on VM draft [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/21-swd-minutes.html#action06] [7]

17:52:55 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/02-swd-irc#T15-51-10

17:52:55 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: all to register (indicate also that you're not planning to attend and/or want to attend via telecon) [8]

17:52:55 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/02-swd-irc#T16-08-04

17:52:55 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Alistair to state the difference between the two flavours of the SimpleExtension proposal for issue 26 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/17-swd-minutes.html#action05] [9]

17:52:55 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/02-swd-irc#T16-14-58

17:52:55 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Diego, Ed and Justin to review RDFa syntax document prior to f2f [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/09/25-swd-minutes.html#action10] [10]

17:52:55 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/02-swd-irc#T16-16-31

17:52:55 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Ralph propose resolution to ISSUE-16 "Default behavior" [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/22-swd-minutes.html#action14] [11]

17:52:55 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/02-swd-irc#T16-17-39