11:51:00 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #eo
11:51:00 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/09/21-eo-irc
11:51:12 <shawn> zakim ,this will be eowg
11:51:16 <shawn> zakim, this will be eowg
11:51:16 <Zakim> ok, shawn; I see WAI_EOWG()8:30AM scheduled to start in 39 minutes
11:51:22 <shawn> chair: Shawn
11:52:09 <shawn> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-eo/2007JulSep/0092.html http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-eo/2007JulSep/0096.html
11:52:25 <shawn> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-eo/2007JulSep/0096.html
11:52:37 <shawn> shawn has changed the topic to: Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-eo/2007JulSep/0096.html
12:17:15 <shawn> agenda+ Agenda review
12:17:24 <shawn> agenda+ Quick Reference: general
12:17:33 <shawn> agenda+ Quick Reference: Introduction
12:17:50 <shawn> agenda+ Quick Reference: customizing section
12:18:15 <shawn> agenda+ Quick Reference: conformance & other
12:18:29 <shawn> agenda+ Quick Reference: title
12:18:43 <shawn> agenda+ WAI-ARIA documents
12:25:21 <shadi> shadi has joined #eo
12:28:09 <shawn> agenda+ F2F meeting, hotel
12:29:10 <Zakim> WAI_EOWG()8:30AM has now started
12:29:11 <Zakim> +Shadi
12:29:33 <shawn> zakim, dial shawn-617
12:29:33 <Zakim> ok, shawn; the call is being made
12:29:34 <Zakim> +Shawn
12:29:46 <Harvey> Harvey has joined #eo
12:30:32 <Henny> Henny has joined #eo
12:31:29 <Zakim> + +020851aaaa
12:31:32 <judy> judy has joined #eo
12:31:49 <shadi> zakim, aaaa is really Henny
12:31:49 <Zakim> +Henny; got it
12:32:41 <Alan> Alan has joined #eo
12:33:24 <Wayne> Wayne has joined #eo
12:33:54 <Zakim> +doyle
12:34:04 <shadi> regrets: Andrew, Jack
12:34:12 <Zakim> +??P7
12:34:28 <shadi> zakim, ? is really Sylvie
12:34:28 <Zakim> +Sylvie; got it
12:35:25 <shawn> zakim, who is here?
12:35:25 <Zakim> On the phone I see Shadi, Shawn, Henny, doyle, Sylvie
12:35:26 <Zakim> On IRC I see Wayne, Alan, judy, Henny, Harvey, shadi, RRSAgent, Zakim, shawn
12:35:27 <shadi> scribe: Shadi
12:35:33 <shadi> agenda?
12:35:50 <Zakim> +Wayne_Dick
12:35:54 <shadi> zakim, take up agendum 1
12:35:58 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Agenda review" taken up [from shawn]
12:36:02 <Zakim> +??P10
12:36:11 <Alan> zakim, ??P10 is me
12:36:11 <Zakim> +Alan; got it
12:36:30 <shadi> slh: who had a look at the documents for reading?
12:36:34 <Sylvie> Sylvie has joined #eo
12:36:45 <Henny> zakim, mute Henny
12:36:45 <Zakim> Henny should now be muted
12:36:59 <shadi> sd: quick reference, and sent comments
12:37:19 <shadi> wd: quick reference briefly, WAI-ARIA more closely
12:37:35 <shadi> ac: WAI-ARIA overwhelmed me
12:37:45 <shadi> zakim, mute me
12:37:45 <Zakim> Shadi should now be muted
12:37:47 <Alan> zakim, who is making noise?
12:37:58 <shadi> zakim, take up agendum 2
12:37:58 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Quick Reference: general" taken up [from shawn]
12:38:03 <Zakim> +[LC]
12:38:05 <Zakim> Alan, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Sylvie (6%), doyle (9%)
12:38:18 <shawn> zakim, [LC] is Justin
12:38:18 <Zakim> +Justin; got it
12:38:34 <Henny> zakim, unmute Henny
12:38:34 <Zakim> Henny should no longer be muted
12:38:40 <shadi> ac: intimidating, lots of content
12:39:12 <shadi> slh: other first reactions?
12:39:25 <shadi> hs: agree with ac, lots of stuff there
12:39:35 <shadi> ...especially for recurring users
12:39:51 <shadi> ...maybe have a cover page for first-time users?
12:40:45 <shadi> wd: is the form functional? for example, selected scripting and it gave me everything
12:40:49 <Henny> zakim, mute Henny
12:40:49 <Zakim> Henny should now be muted
12:41:48 <Liam> Liam has joined #eo
12:43:35 <shadi> wd: wasn't very helpful, gave me too much
12:43:51 <shadi> zakim, take up agendum 3
12:43:51 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Quick Reference: Introduction" taken up [from shawn]
12:44:35 <Henny> zakim, unmute henny
12:44:35 <Zakim> Henny should no longer be muted
12:44:39 <shadi> slh: most said this was long, where can we cut it down?
12:45:06 <shadi> ...issue with cover page is that some people may be directly pointed to this part
12:45:45 <shadi> hs: can select to hide introduction, not sure if people will find it
12:45:47 <Sylvie> no
12:46:04 <shadi> slh: who found that?
12:46:38 <shadi> slh: what if it was right beside the introduction?
12:46:45 <shadi> [agreement]
12:47:04 <shadi> jt: after i've read it, just hide
12:47:05 <Henny> zakim, mute Henny
12:47:05 <Zakim> Henny should now be muted
12:47:56 <shadi> saz: not convinced that cover page wouldn't work, we can point there pretty clearly
12:48:10 <shadi> ...like on the tools list. but either options work for me
12:48:18 <Henny> zakim, unmute Henny
12:48:18 <Zakim> Henny should no longer be muted
12:48:44 <shadi> slh: what are the pros and cons of having a separate cover page vs having the show/hide option?
12:48:53 <Zakim> +Liam_McGee
12:49:26 <shadi> ds: separate page makes it more readable to me, long text is opposite to a *quick* reference
12:49:51 <shadi> ...but something immediately clear that it can be customized works
12:50:07 <shadi> slh: do we need both show/hide and cover page?
12:50:16 <Henny> zakim, mute Henny
12:50:16 <Zakim> Henny should now be muted
12:50:19 <shadi> wd: no, its too much
12:50:23 <shadi> [agreement]
12:50:53 <shadi> action: suggest the show/hide option around the heading of the introduction
12:51:49 <shadi> slh: any information that is not necessary?
12:54:00 <shadi> sd: first sentence should come later
12:54:11 <Harvey> Am unable to join by phone What is the proper phone number?
12:54:13 <shadi> slh: note that this will not stay there
12:54:37 <shadi> [agreement with sd]
12:55:47 <shadi> lmg: better to tell people what this resource is before pointing them to a different one
12:56:06 <shadi> slh: any reasons not to switch the first & second paragraphs?
12:56:27 <shadi> wd: not sure if it should be a paragraph
12:57:15 <shadi> action: suggest to switch first and second introduction paragraphs
12:57:54 <shadi> zakim, code?
12:57:54 <Zakim> the conference code is 3694 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), shadi
12:58:19 <Henny> zakim, unmute henny
12:58:19 <Zakim> Henny should no longer be muted
12:59:08 <shadi> jt: not sure why that last paragraph is there, sounds more like a disclaimer
12:59:24 <shadi> hs: is more supplementary information, not for the user
12:59:33 <shadi> slh: not user-centric?
12:59:41 <shadi> [agreement]
13:00:01 <Henny> zakim, mute Henny
13:00:01 <Zakim> Henny should now be muted
13:00:57 <shadi> jt: don't think rewording will help, it shouldn't be up there
13:01:02 <shadi> wd: it should go
13:02:42 <shadi> slh: important to know that techniques are not exhaustive, there are other ways to meet the success criteria
13:03:19 <shadi> wd: see people not able to understand these terms, rely on me to explain it
13:05:11 <shadi> lmg: can shorten several parts, much of the information is additional and not often needed
13:05:21 <Henny_> Henny_ has joined #eo
13:05:23 <shadi> ...for example sufficient techniques
13:05:32 <shadi> ...vs adivsory techniques
13:05:40 <shadi> q+
13:06:44 <shadi> saz: maybe additional information page?
13:06:53 <shadi> slh: will be such a page
13:07:24 <shadi> q-
13:08:17 <Henny_> zakim, mute Henny
13:08:17 <Zakim> Henny was already muted, Henny_
13:09:06 <shadi> wd: in my mind, "informative" is unecessary and i often ignore it
13:09:33 <shadi> slh: how does that term for people not heavily involved with standards?
13:09:44 <shadi> jt: doesn't tell me anything
13:09:44 <shawn> zakim, who is here?
13:09:44 <Zakim> On the phone I see Shadi, Shawn, Henny (muted), doyle, Sylvie (muted), Wayne_Dick, Alan (muted), Justin, Liam_McGee
13:09:46 <Zakim> On IRC I see Henny_, Liam, Sylvie, Wayne, Alan, judy, Harvey, shadi, RRSAgent, Zakim, shawn
13:10:03 <shadi> wd: should drop it
13:11:05 <shadi> lmg: information ... not required for conformance -maybe not something useful to say to everyone
13:11:17 <shadi> s/information/informative
13:11:49 <shawn> saz: usual developer not care normative, or informative
13:12:24 <Liam> Suggested minimum: This Quick Reference is based on the 17 May 2007 WCAG 2.0 draft. Anyone can submit new techniques to the Working Group at any time. For additional information on WCAG 2.0 and its supporting documents see Overview of WCAG 2.0 Documents.
13:12:24 <shadi> saz: usual developer not care normative, or informative
13:13:24 <shadi> action: suggest to only include the absolute minimum in the introduction, and move other information else where
13:13:30 <shadi> zakim, take up next
13:13:30 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Agenda review" taken up [from shawn]
13:13:48 <shadi> zakim, take up agendum 3
13:13:48 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Quick Reference: Introduction" taken up [from shawn]
13:13:51 <shadi> zakim, take up agendum 4
13:13:51 <Zakim> agendum 4. "Quick Reference: customizing section" taken up [from shawn]
13:14:19 <shadi> zakim, close agendum 1, 2, 3
13:14:19 <Zakim> I don't understand 'close agendum 1, 2, 3', shadi
13:14:25 <shadi> zakim, close agendum 1
13:14:25 <Zakim> agendum 1, Agenda review, closed
13:14:27 <Zakim> I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
13:14:28 <Zakim> 2. Quick Reference: general [from shawn]
13:14:28 <shadi> zakim, close agendum 2
13:14:28 <Zakim> agendum 2, Quick Reference: general, closed
13:14:29 <Zakim> I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
13:14:30 <shadi> zakim, close agendum 3
13:14:31 <Zakim> 4. Quick Reference: customizing section [from shawn]
13:14:32 <Zakim> agendum 3, Quick Reference: Introduction, closed
13:14:33 <Zakim> I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
13:14:34 <Zakim> 4. Quick Reference: customizing section [from shawn]
13:15:02 <shadi> slh: what is the benefit of the scripting version?
13:15:26 <shadi> ...see difference to without scripts
13:16:46 <Sylvie> q+ to comment on scripts
13:16:51 <shadi> jt: recurring submissions seems tedious
13:17:21 <shadi> lmg: changes after submissions are not clear
13:17:52 <Henny_> zakim, unmute Henny
13:17:52 <Zakim> Henny should no longer be muted
13:18:01 <shadi> slh: do people like the scripting?
13:18:05 <Alan> q+
13:18:13 <shadi> wd: doesn't really help
13:18:21 <shadi> jt: doesn't help me at all
13:19:19 <shadi> hs: relatively new paradigm of interface, not sure if people are already used to it
13:19:59 <shadi> ac: it is meant for experienced users, they can learn how to use this document
13:20:14 <shadi> ...customization is important
13:20:40 <Henny_> zakim, mute henny
13:20:40 <Zakim> Henny should now be muted
13:20:48 <Alan> ack me
13:20:50 <shadi> slh: customization will be kept, the javascript is the question
13:21:24 <shadi> wd: scripting gets into the way of people who can't use scripting
13:22:01 <shadi> ...but not in this case
13:22:40 <shadi> slh: everyone gets the button regardless if scripting or not
13:23:27 <Henny_> zakim, unmute henny
13:23:27 <Zakim> Henny should no longer be muted
13:23:53 <shadi> lmg: are we talking about the customization function or the submit button?
13:24:57 <shadi> slh: do people like the function of selecting a checkbox and having things showing/hiding without submitting?
13:25:04 <shadi> ack sylvie
13:25:04 <Zakim> Sylvie, you wanted to comment on scripts
13:25:28 <shadi> sd: depends on the users, designers and developers may like it
13:25:47 <shadi> ...but people with disabilities may be disturbed by it
13:26:24 <Liam> q+ to say that checking a checkbox should not prompt a page reload.
13:26:25 <shadi> ...maybe people will not understand why the page suddenly changes
13:26:43 <shadi> ...or why the button suddenly appears
13:27:07 <shadi> ...the text "save setting options" is not clear to me
13:28:04 <Liam> q+ to ask whether you can hide all three levels (A, AA and AAA).
13:28:19 <Henny_> zakim, mute henny
13:28:19 <Zakim> Henny should now be muted
13:28:56 <Sylvie> zakim, mute Sylvie
13:28:56 <Zakim> Sylvie should now be muted
13:29:17 <Zakim> -Alan
13:30:08 <shadi> saz: like the overall function, the target audience is designers and developers (even if with disabilities)
13:30:26 <shadi> ...can improve a lot of the usability but the function helps
13:30:54 <Henny_> zakim, unmute henny
13:30:54 <Zakim> Henny should no longer be muted
13:32:01 <Liam> q-
13:32:05 <Henny_> queue/ henny
13:32:13 <shadi> jt: not aparent that my actions had any effects, don't know what changed
13:33:57 <shadi> lmg: script can either submit the page which would cause a reload, or to show/hide which gives no clues on the changes
13:34:24 <Henny_> zakim, mute henny
13:34:24 <Zakim> Henny should now be muted
13:34:27 <shadi> hs: if one gets a message notification it may help
13:36:26 <shadi> slh: issue if a lot of things are unselected, then anchors don't work well
13:37:01 <shadi> saz: how did the usability tests with designers/developers work?
13:37:33 <shadi> slh: can't remember
13:37:59 <shadi> wd: really can't detect the differences when changes are made
13:40:27 <shadi> jt: correlation between SC 1.1.1 and CSS may not be clear to everyone
13:40:41 <shadi> saz: not the scripting issue
13:40:52 <shadi> slh: relates to wd's observation
13:41:36 <shadi> action: raise bug that when CSS is not selected, still get CSS advisory techniques
13:45:33 <shadi> wd: push out everything on you in case you might miss something but in turn it hides what you need to find
13:46:42 <Wayne> A person with blindness or low vision has no programatic way to find the essential search items.
13:47:20 <shawn> saz: focusing on CSS, versus evaluating a page that includes CSS
13:47:46 <shawn> saz: perhaps additional options for different use case
13:49:00 <Zakim> +Judy
13:50:00 <Zakim> -Wayne_Dick
13:50:14 <shawn> agenda?
13:51:27 <shadi> lmg: having thoughts about turning on/off
13:51:39 <shadi> ...the semantics don't seem to work
13:52:49 <shadi> lmg: turning sections on/off is not consistent, for example can't turn off the TOC
13:53:23 <judy> q+
13:53:30 <shadi> ...can turn off A, AA, and AAA -don't see why this is useful
13:53:34 <shadi> ack j
13:54:21 <shadi> jb: rationale was so that one could see the most basic requirements -the guidelines
13:55:49 <shadi> lmg: why are techniques and failures together?
13:56:06 <shadi> slh: because WG thinks that it is important
13:56:20 <shadi> lmg: what if someone wants to see the failures alone?
13:56:33 <shadi> slh: relates back to wd's point, need to rediscuss
13:57:06 <shadi> lmg: should automatically save settings
13:57:09 <judy> q+
13:57:33 <judy> q+ to say that the setting changes should be an option, because i might want to do something different the next time i use it.
13:58:17 <shadi> slh: what happens when you go away and come back later?
13:58:37 <shadi> saz: can be notified that settings are preset
13:58:40 <shadi> ack j
13:58:40 <Zakim> judy, you wanted to say that the setting changes should be an option, because i might want to do something different the next time i use it.
13:58:42 <judy> q-
13:59:41 <shadi> saz: i hear cookies and privacy concerns...
13:59:42 <judy> zakim, who's here?
13:59:42 <Zakim> On the phone I see Shadi, Shawn, Henny (muted), doyle, Sylvie (muted), Justin, Liam_McGee, Judy
13:59:44 <Zakim> On IRC I see Henny_, Liam, Sylvie, judy, Harvey, shadi, RRSAgent, Zakim, shawn
14:02:03 <shadi> lmg: have an issue with the labeling -in forms mode screen reader users often tend to miss headers
14:02:26 <shadi> ...prefer to have slightly longer labels like "show CSS" etc
14:02:57 <shadi> ...add verbs like "show" to have a better construction
14:03:44 <shadi> ...take out the labels on the fieldsets
14:06:29 <shadi> sd: notes will be missed unless read line-by-line
14:07:58 <shadi> action: in the customizing section, add a disabled checkbox with the HTML that is always selected (as opposed to the note)
14:09:36 <Sylvie> zakim, mute sylvie
14:09:36 <Zakim> Sylvie should now be muted
14:11:35 <shadi> lmg: suggest to remove the notification in the red brackets
14:12:01 <shadi> ...suggest to notify through the heading and the title
14:12:32 <shadi> slh: issue is how to communicate once a customization is made
14:13:30 <Zakim> +Bingham
14:15:26 <shadi> saz: understood lmg saying take out legends for the fieldsets but therefore have more elaborate labels for the individual controls
14:16:41 <shawn> agenda?
14:16:53 <shadi> zakim, close agendum 4
14:16:53 <Zakim> agendum 4, Quick Reference: customizing section, closed
14:16:54 <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
14:16:55 <Zakim> 5. Quick Reference: conformance & other [from shawn]
14:17:04 <shadi> zakim, take up agendum 5
14:17:04 <Zakim> agendum 5. "Quick Reference: conformance & other" taken up [from shawn]
14:17:10 <Henny_> zakim, unmute henny
14:17:10 <Zakim> Henny should no longer be muted
14:17:33 <shadi> slh: who realized that at the bottom were conformance requirements?
14:17:41 <shadi> [1 yes, 2 no]
14:18:09 <shadi> lmg: kind of a prize for the ones who read all the way to the end
14:18:14 <Henny_> zakim, mute henny
14:18:14 <Zakim> Henny should now be muted
14:18:41 <Sylvie> zakim, unmute sylvie
14:18:41 <Zakim> Sylvie should no longer be muted
14:19:53 <shadi> lmg: it's there just in case you may need it
14:19:54 <shadi> jt: doesn't fit with the quick reference
14:20:22 <Henny_> zakim, unmute henny
14:20:22 <Zakim> Henny should no longer be muted
14:20:29 <shadi> sd: maybe a page navigation (like on the other WAI pages) listing the <h2>s
14:21:07 <shadi> lmg: move the table of contents as a page navigation?
14:21:21 <Henny_> zakim, mute henny
14:21:21 <Zakim> Henny should now be muted
14:21:35 <shadi> sd: no, TOC is too long, a brief overview
14:21:36 <Sylvie> zakim, mute Sylvie
14:21:36 <Zakim> Sylvie should now be muted
14:22:55 <shadi> zakim, take up agendum 8
14:22:55 <Zakim> agendum 8. "F2F meeting, hotel" taken up [from shawn]
14:23:09 <shadi> slh: very busy time of the year in boston
14:23:37 <shadi> ...if you are planning to stay at the conference hotel, please make your reservations soon
14:23:44 <shadi> ...preferably today
14:24:26 <shadi> Topic: new Chair
14:24:49 <shadi> jb: i'm stepping down from my role as EOWG chair to focus on other WAI work
14:25:06 <shadi> ...especially on WAI-AGE and other standard harmonization work
14:25:20 <shadi> ...slh will be the new chair
14:26:03 <shadi> ...the work in this group is really important to me, think it is vital
14:26:19 <shadi> ...will continue to participate, but no longer as chair
14:26:58 <shadi> ...it was an honor to chair the group, hoping you will continue to support Shawn
14:27:23 <shadi> ...really important work being used by people all around the world
14:27:42 <shadi> ds: big hug, will miss you being around all the time
14:27:45 <Henny_> zakim, unmute henny
14:27:45 <Zakim> Henny should no longer be muted
14:27:58 <shadi> ...your heart had been in this
14:30:06 <Zakim> -doyle
14:30:07 <Zakim> -Justin
14:30:08 <Zakim> -Henny
14:30:10 <Zakim> -Shadi
14:30:11 <Zakim> -Sylvie
14:30:12 <Zakim> -Liam_McGee
14:30:16 <Zakim> -Judy
14:31:21 <Liam> Liam has left #eo
14:37:02 <Zakim> -Bingham
14:37:04 <Zakim> -Shawn
14:37:06 <Zakim> WAI_EOWG()8:30AM has ended
14:37:07 <Zakim> Attendees were Shadi, Shawn, +020851aaaa, Henny, doyle, Sylvie, Wayne_Dick, Alan, Justin, Liam_McGee, Judy, Bingham
14:56:57 <shadi> zakim, bye
14:56:58 <Zakim> Zakim has left #eo
14:57:06 <shadi> rrsagent, make logs world
14:57:12 <shadi> rrsagent, make minutes
14:57:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/09/21-eo-minutes.html shadi
14:57:13 <shadi> rrsagent, make logs world
14:57:17 <shadi> rrsagent, bye
14:57:17 <RRSAgent> I see 5 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2007/09/21-eo-actions.rdf :
14:57:17 <RRSAgent> ACTION: suggest the show/hide option around the heading of the introduction [1]
14:57:17 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/09/21-eo-irc#T12-50-53
14:57:17 <RRSAgent> ACTION: suggest to switch first and second introduction paragraphs [2]
14:57:17 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/09/21-eo-irc#T12-57-15
14:57:17 <RRSAgent> ACTION: suggest to only include the absolute minimum in the introduction, and move other information else where [3]
14:57:17 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/09/21-eo-irc#T13-13-24
14:57:17 <RRSAgent> ACTION: raise bug that when CSS is not selected, still get CSS advisory techniques [4]
14:57:17 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/09/21-eo-irc#T13-41-36
14:57:17 <RRSAgent> ACTION: in the customizing section, add a disabled checkbox with the HTML that is always selected (as opposed to the note) [5]
14:57:17 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/09/21-eo-irc#T14-07-58