IRC log of pf on 2007-09-07

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chair: don
16:12:57 [Rich]
chair: Don
16:13:02 [oedipus]
scribe: gregory
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16:13:31 [Rich]
meeting: DHTML Style Guide Meeting
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16:14:02 [oedipus]
TOPIC: drag and drop
16:14:12 [Rich]
http://esw.w3.org/topic/PF/ARIA/BestPractices/DragDrop
16:14:17 [oedipus]
RS: (for reference consult above URI)
16:14:44 [oedipus]
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16:15:40 [oedipus]
RS: working on drag drop example: want to create something in BP guide how to do draganddrop -- LisaP asked me to pass this by the DHTML style guide team
16:16:50 [Rich]
http://www.w3.org/TR/aria-state/#dragdrop
16:16:56 [oedipus]
RS: (refers to link) drag and drop features challange for PWDs - manipulating mouse, finding targets, dropping in correct place, etc. -- use may not be aware of drop operation; result: frustration; ARIA introduces 2 draganddrop
16:19:19 [oedipus]
RS: grab and dropeffect; aaa:grab what is being "grabbed and dragged" aaa:dropeffect communicates result of drop; step 1 id indifiable objects - objects capable of being dragged MUST have a determined role -- no DIV!; repurpose target to apply -- marks element that can be dragged and dropped; aaa:grab grabs supporting object -- authors can use CSS to highlight elements that are draggable; all draggable objects must be accessible from keyboard; no keyboard mapping
16:19:55 [oedipus]
RS: step 2: allow user to activate the drag operation (reviews technical details contained in http://www.w3.org/TR/aria-state/#dragdrop)
16:20:34 [oedipus]
RS: suggested control-shift-10 on control object; add to list of menu items; escape should close popup window and restore previous focus;
16:21:22 [oedipus]
RS: feedback needed -- should we have a hotkey? once drag selection made, should do close and move focus to grabbable object and receive aaa:grab
16:21:34 [oedipus]
BG: didn't talk about drag option, but supporting drag
16:21:47 [oedipus]
BG: grab equals supported grabbed equals true?
16:23:11 [oedipus]
RS: if in menu and select, in grab mode; third part: app knows what is dragged, identifies potential targets -- marke by setting markeffect to copy to reference space on menu or hotkey; drop objects must have a defineable mode; any object without drop effect will have assumed value of none; should be excluded from dragdrop operation
16:25:10 [oedipus]
RS: next step: configure script to handle mouse operations (selected, go into mousemode, move mouse around desktop) at will move mouse to accepting drop partners -- app will move map or adjust menu; user hitting defined key will execute drop; can always cancel -- resets drop to none
16:25:25 [oedipus]
RS: step 5: cleanup
16:26:14 [oedipus]
RS: other considerations: right now, drop effect can support more than one value -- should that be the case?
16:27:04 [oedipus]
RS: once user navigates target, user needs to be able to execute drop; determined upon previous selection; must then perform cleanup -- thoughts? more than 1 way of doing this? if only 1 way, simplifies things; keyboard operation implications?
16:27:50 [oedipus]
CB: pick mark and action sequence -- pick what want moved, mark for movement, and action (moveto and drop); chance to change action?
16:27:58 [oedipus]
RS: hit escape to go back to where you began
16:28:15 [oedipus]
CB: pick destinations, then execute actions -- makes more logical sense
16:28:21 [oedipus]
RS: user doing picking?
16:28:38 [oedipus]
CB: yes, id target, decide what to do, and then do it
16:29:02 [oedipus]
RS: only author or app knows drop targets -- here are all that match accept patterns, choose one
16:29:18 [oedipus]
CB: pick, then mark, then execute user demand
16:29:30 [oedipus]
RS: make informed decision based on what is supported by app
16:29:46 [oedipus]
CB: six of one - half dozen of others; what about pick and replace?
16:29:57 [oedipus]
RS: hadn't considered that -- wasn't a use case i considered
16:30:05 [oedipus]
CB: copy, move replace file operations
16:30:14 [oedipus]
RS: if valid use case can bring to group
16:30:56 [oedipus]
AG: always a challange to perform dragdrop -- could be by-product of follow-up dialog -- either move or copy;
16:31:10 [oedipus]
AG: choice of rename or replace on target to drop
16:31:21 [oedipus]
CB: text editor, picked destination, want to replace selected text
16:31:43 [oedipus]
AG: in editor, that is cued by selection of destination -- you choose between characters want to replace
16:31:53 [oedipus]
CB: destination selection will determine, then?
16:32:03 [oedipus]
AG: yes -- aspect of it we hadn't considered
16:32:22 [oedipus]
BG: hard to mark every range possible -- have to tell what are acceptable drop targets
16:32:35 [oedipus]
CB: if selected mark before command, might be easier?
16:33:18 [oedipus]
BG: place in tree -- can copy, move or replace this item; editor, user selecting what want as replace - no mechanism for user to specify where target is -- seems that is app's job
16:33:33 [oedipus]
AG: in a text editor, everything is a possible replace target
16:33:53 [oedipus]
AG: mark block/mark range -- move block in range;
16:34:11 [oedipus]
CB: tree example - nodes and leaves - want to replace nodes elsewhere in tree with nodes i've selected
16:34:58 [oedipus]
EJ: how do multiple targets get marked?
16:35:16 [oedipus]
AG: multiselection drag selection -- that's EJ's use case, i think
16:35:26 [oedipus]
EJ: different keystrokes for each
16:36:12 [oedipus]
EJ: in directory, want to either pick a bunch discontiguous before i choose contiguous; have to mark both with same action?
16:36:22 [oedipus]
RS: want to be able to set multiple drag sources?
16:37:13 [oedipus]
RS: if mark all want to manipulate
16:37:32 [oedipus]
GJR: control+space for noncontiguous shift+space for contiguous (windows)
16:38:37 [oedipus]
RS: control click mark each thing you want selected; what have to do is once selected, indicate why selected -- if have control "click" when bring up menu to select drag menu to start operation, all marked go to true, escape cancels all; when get to location, context menu will alow range of actions
16:38:55 [oedipus]
EJ: if select popup menu option going to initiate drag operation?
16:39:24 [oedipus]
RS: yes, all those elements are marked for grabbing after selection -- app doesn't know what user's intent is (copy to clipboard, delete, move, etc.)
16:39:50 [oedipus]
RS: marked then pick droptargets -- not supporting dropping in multiple locations
16:40:25 [oedipus]
EJ: select multiple objects for drag; asked for something different
16:40:51 [oedipus]
RS: my key sequence is: launch menue, popup menu, how to escape out of it; halt entire operation
16:41:02 [oedipus]
present+ Tim Boland
16:41:16 [oedipus]
RS: define hotkey sequence for doing a move is a menu adequate?
16:41:43 [oedipus]
EJ: identified hole, how do will fill it? is that what your requesting of style guide group
16:42:15 [oedipus]
EJ: marking multiple selections for a dragto - copy these and drop on acceptable target
16:42:26 [oedipus]
RS: multiple options - 2 seperate operations
16:42:30 [oedipus]
EJ: marking it?
16:43:23 [oedipus]
RS: one question -- do we want to leave last operation open for user to not drop until context menu pops up? decision decides in DTD for drop effect if select one or multiple in drop effect
16:44:56 [oedipus]
AG: if the user chooses drop effect when grab source, don't have to support multiple on target, but may have some drop events that are legal on some targets and illegal in others; example that spawned multiple drop effects -- changes from move to copy -- don't know that when grab source -- that's what got us to put in multiple effects as possibility on target
16:45:07 [oedipus]
RS: user picking which operation when starts?
16:45:14 [oedipus]
AG: no, just grabbing and dragging
16:45:28 [oedipus]
AG: want reverse operation - when get to target decide what i want to do
16:45:46 [oedipus]
AG: narrow choices of what system knows to the max; if multiple, ask user
16:46:06 [oedipus]
BG: people are used to picking what to do when grab not when drop
16:46:08 [oedipus]
CB: right
16:46:38 [oedipus]
BG: problem as implementor, don't have to calculate what drop is until i get a mouseover -- now, have to precalculate for what is on screen -- potentially daunting
16:46:48 [oedipus]
RS: doing additional work to assist user
16:46:58 [oedipus]
BG: going to get pushback on it
16:47:49 [oedipus]
AG: have option to follow what AT does with mouse, what user does with navigation, and simulate mouseover when reach acceptable target; user navigates blind and gets an alert when can drop something -- functional, don't know if
16:48:02 [oedipus]
BG: how is someone blind going to navigate to other items
16:48:22 [oedipus]
RS: AT keeps track of visible area and can navigate to those using JAWS cursor
16:48:48 [oedipus]
BG: JAWS would say "now i'm doing a drag, need to visit all acceptable targets and let user decide when to take action
16:49:36 [oedipus]
AG: opera supports a wide variety of tab-cycles -- future opera, when grab something, get navigation cycle that visits potential drop targets -- select expression - navigatet amongst those expressions
16:50:28 [oedipus]
BG: have no idea user using screen reader; if mixed navigation, keyboard tab navigation to point-and-click
16:50:47 [oedipus]
RS: once target identified, move mouse cursor to it
16:51:12 [oedipus]
AG: same scripts that accept the mouse and the keyboard actions; have to describe state machine with mouse and keyboard synonyms at each point
16:51:21 [oedipus]
BG: can work, needs to be thought throug
16:51:31 [oedipus]
AG: very difficult use case
16:52:00 [oedipus]
RS: i need to deal with EJ's case about mulitple selectable sources and how execute grab -- what else needed?
16:52:44 [oedipus]
RS: trying to take ARIA to last call for target date of mid-october; trying to create a graph of best practices which would include dragdrop -- can tweak later on if developers identify problems/holes -- can address specific use cases
16:53:08 [oedipus]
AG: best practices doesn't have to be perfect -- need to test markup COMPLETELY before issuing BP document
16:53:47 [oedipus]
present+ Don Evans, RichS, Becky Gibson, Tim Boland, Al Gilman, Gregory J. Rosmaita, Jon Gunderson
16:54:01 [oedipus]
RS: let's have follow-up and discuss it
16:54:18 [oedipus]
CB: control-shift-f10 -- already defined in IE and FF
16:54:28 [oedipus]
RS: going to redefine -- if group doesn't like it, can be changed
16:54:35 [oedipus]
BG: doesn't matter -- do the same thing, right?
16:54:39 [oedipus]
CB: right
16:54:59 [oedipus]
BG: some things may already have a context menu, so we allow you to put context menu on tree
16:55:10 [oedipus]
RS: add or remove specific menu items at same time
16:55:34 [oedipus]
BG: append your stuff to existing menu? person created DOM with their menu, have to modify on fly?
16:55:45 [oedipus]
TB: alternative is have second menu
16:56:48 [oedipus]
BG: browser wrote original menu -- it is doing modification
16:57:37 [oedipus]
AG: change menu worth looking at -- take most immediate candidates (dragdrop, grab, dragchoices with menu item that says "other options" or "more" and go to author's menu as sub-menu;
16:57:46 [oedipus]
BG: talking about computing that takes time;
16:58:02 [oedipus]
AG: currently been done in script which takes even longer
16:58:31 [oedipus]
BG: if menu can't be static, has to be generated for specific item -- don't know if copyable, moveable, etc. -- doable, but worry about performance issues
16:58:51 [oedipus]
present+ Chris Blouch
16:59:15 [oedipus]
DE: had no idea how could be done at outset -- you've convinced me there is a implementable way
16:59:20 [oedipus]
RS: traveling next week
16:59:32 [oedipus]
AG: next call in 2 weeks anyway (21 september 2007)
16:59:49 [oedipus]
BG: posted to list menu punch list to list; LisaP put on wiki
16:59:54 [oedipus]
DE: ok, can review
17:01:00 [oedipus]
EJ: use cases defining keyboard sequences -- use cases going to drive choice of final key sequences -- RichS have you done that -- operations for each key gesture -- popup menu, know its there, what it can do -- what happens
17:01:29 [oedipus]
RS: haven't run through all use cases -- working on example; keep suggestions coming -- didn't think about multiple select before call
17:01:36 [becka11y]
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17:01:39 [Jon]
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17:03:20 [oedipus]
meeting adjourned 1704 UTC -- next meeting 21 September 2007 at 1600 UTC
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