07:10:45 RRSAgent has joined #mobileok 07:10:46 logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/09/05-mobileok-irc 07:10:53 Meeting: mobileOK checker Task Force F2F, day 2 07:10:57 Chair: Sean 07:11:04 RRSAgent, make log public 07:11:14 Present: Sean, Dom, Nacho, Roland, Ruadhan, Abel, Miguel, Jo 07:11:30 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-mobileok-checker/2007Aug/0084.html 07:11:43 -> http://www.w3.org/2007/09/04-mobileok-minutes.html Previous day minutes 07:36:44 miguel has joined #mobileok 07:40:42 ScribeNick: roland 07:40:56 sean: agenda for today 07:41:42 jo has joined #mobileok 07:41:50 abel has joined #mobileok 07:42:01 rrsagent, draft minutes 07:42:01 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/09/05-mobileok-minutes.html jo 07:42:31 srowen has joined #mobileok 07:43:18 => Ruadhan, Jo status and test review 07:46:27 Ruadhan: update xslt implementation google doc 07:46:54 Ruadhan: do we have a review process for the tests? 07:47:02 nacho has joined #mobileok 07:47:24 ...actually no line numbers are reported 07:47:49 ...and come back to CSS discussion 07:48:23 srowen: if a test exist for a test, it is done 07:49:08 dom: if you have done your test, somebody else have to test if this is done 07:50:29 srowen: line number 07:51:01 ...xerces and saxon discussion 07:52:28 ...we can use best of both parsers, line numbers from saxon and xerces for the other stuff 07:53:52 Ruadhan: (shows a result example) how to display the line numbers in the doc? 07:54:48 srowen: this method is used in the CSS method 07:56:12 ... walking through the tests and check where the position is needed 07:58:25 actually we don't see a example, but it's work 07:58:54 TODO need to come up with working example for adding line number in XSL-based tests 08:00:08 Ruadhan: if external elements like background images are used in the CSS 08:00:22 ... but are not referenced in the document 08:00:39 ... we do not have this add to the page test 08:00:44 ... they'll get counted as part of the external resources 08:02:33 jo: also a problem if as example: .body is overwritten by body.body 08:03:12 srowen: we should mark this as a known issure 08:05:00 TODO track the CSS cascade issue as a known issue 08:06:29 -> http://html.xamjwg.org/java-browser.jsp Lobo: Java Web Browser "Lobo (previously known as Warrior) is an open source web browser that is written completely in Java. It is undergoing active development with the aim to fully support HTML 4, Javascript and CSS2." 08:06:29 ruadhan has joined #mobileok 08:08:16 jo: discussing about CSS cascade and mobileOK doc 08:10:55 ... CSS cascade handling is hard stuff 08:11:16 srowen: we should note this as an issue 08:14:23 ruadhan: (shows an example) background images that are defined but the class is not used are not loaded 08:14:35 ... by Firefox 08:15:45 srowen: another agenda item: Test for tests 08:16:45 ... all tests are located in a separate directory 08:17:24 .. you do not have to write source code for tests 08:18:05 ... for each test are directories where the testcases are located 08:18:56 ... the primary test document is 'index.xhtml' 08:19:16 ...if you want additional headers, use 'index.xhtml.headers' 08:20:15 ...runs on localhost:8888 08:21:04 ...if you use other files in the doc, place them in this directory 08:22:12 ...the only tools that you need is java and ant 08:23:02 ... if you want to build it, simply run 'ant' 08:23:13 ... if you want to run the test, run 'ant test' 08:24:59 ... when the test fails, the expected result isn't correctly 08:25:54 TODO add ability to run one test at a time 08:25:57 one test test that is 08:26:07 [generated URIs look like http://localhost:8080/StyleSheetsUseTest/2/index.xhtml FWIW] 08:26:28 ... thats it! 08:27:28 dom: we need cross tests 08:27:31 TODO: check that each warn/fail condition is minimally tested by our test suite 08:28:26 srowen: test java code is located in a separate directory 08:29:04 TODO build a way save test run results as the golden test result 08:30:17 jo: could you document, how to test? 08:30:37 srowen: send it to the mailinglist, another todo 08:31:27 dom: how to document the expected result? 08:32:14 srowen: another todo 08:33:08 TODO add document mapping tests to description and coniditon tested 08:33:35 all: good job (applause) 08:52:26 - pause - 08:55:51 jo: review where we are with external libraries 08:56:17 ... jhove, utf-8 and other stuff 08:57:34 srowen: working with the utf8 validation, returning line numbers 08:58:29 abel: the css validation returns errors not in a exception 08:59:30 srowen: we should display the errors from the third party library 09:01:09 study about third parties error reporting -->http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=dhbw7zt7_0f8w6bq 09:04:41 jo: [discussion about using external libraries] 09:08:46 ...libraries are written for production mode and not to analyze errors 09:09:58 think we are talking about 3 things: 09:10:09 TODO write up lessons learned in some form 09:10:19 1) bugs and faults in libraries that hurt us. actually I don't know that we were hit significantly by bugs 09:10:59 2) libraries don't give much attention to error cases, and they are usually concerned with the non-error case (e.g. a generic exception is thrown if anything goes wrong). Not a fault in the general sense but yes a problem for us 09:11:25 I think we should file feature requests and so forth 'formally' for projects that might usefully improve their support for tools 09:11:33 specifically should file bugs/requests against CSS validator 09:12:01 3) finally i would like to see any of our outstanding to-dos or bugs tracked in tracker rather than only in a document so that they are live, publicly visible, trackable, assignable 09:12:07 dom has joined #mobileok 09:12:13 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/09/05-mobileok-minutes.html dom 09:12:14 ... but writing a doc in addition to all this never hurts too 09:12:44 srowen: going back to the agenda 09:13:26 srowen: using the tracker system 09:14:02 ... resolving issues and track features and bugs 09:14:07 -> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?query_format=specific&order=relevance+desc&bug_status=__open__&product=mobileOK+Basic+checker&content= Bugs recorded for the mobileOK checker 09:14:30 ... other agenda items? 09:14:40 -> http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/products/10 Open and Pending Action Items for the checker TF 09:16:20 ScribeNick: nacho 09:17:21 Topic: Review open actions from last F2F 09:18:01 dom: ACTION-505 ... done and info sent to the list 09:18:33 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-mobileok-checker/2007Jul/0085.html my mail on action 505 09:19:06 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-mobileok-checker/2007Jul/0091.html Sean's analysis of licenses 09:19:48 [discussion about licensing of the checker taking into account that it depends on 3rd party libraries] 09:20:11 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-mobileok-checker/2007Aug/0000.html 09:20:31 and http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-mobileok-checker/2007Aug/0008.html 09:21:07 "we can indeed distribute the unmodified libraries provided we do so with the right license notice." 09:22:21 dom: ACTION-505 closed 09:22:59 Sean: legalOK and dotMobi 09:24:21 sean: any problem about contributing your work under W3C ? 09:24:23 jo: no 09:24:35 nacho: i do not think so... formal answer next Friday 09:25:18 roland: it is important to have the company's name shown and a disclaimer about responsabilities for the result of contributed code 09:25:47 sean: good point to be included in the docs (user and dev manuals) 09:26:17 sean: ACTION-509 09:27:13 see http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-mobileok-checker/2007Jul/0085.html re ACTION-509 09:29:01 dom: maybe copyright statement should change a little bit to include reference to companies contributing... a thing to be studied 09:29:27 sean: let's leave ACTION-509 open 09:30:19 I opened ACTION-542 to replace ACTION-509 09:31:36 sean: license of each external library being used is included in the project at the moment and also a COPYRIGHT.html 09:32:14 .... with COPYRIGHT.html being actually the license... so i will rename it 09:32:33 sean: ACTION-510 09:33:42 miguel: the problem is solved... ACTION-510 to be closed 09:33:53 sean: ACTION-511 09:34:42 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-mobileok-checker/2007Jun/0044.html 09:34:52 sean: ACTION-511 closed 09:35:05 sean: ACTION-512 09:35:22 roland: no XPath function available 09:35:32 sean:02 ACTION-51201 closed 09:35:41 sean: ACTION-512 09:35:49 sean: ACTION-513 09:36:37 sean: done as seen in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-mobileok-checker/2007Jun/0046.html 09:36:51 ... ACTION-513 to be closed 09:38:13 [sean summarizes details about current implementation about char encoding] 09:40:21 http://www.w3.org/TR/2006/REC-xml-20060816/#sec-guessing 09:40:23 [discussion about XML Header and how its characters are represented in different encodings] 09:41:23 dom: my last URL was for XML prolog header Detection Without External Encoding Information 09:43:10 TODO fix character encoding detection in XML 09:43:50 ACTION-513 is closed with last TODO from Dom pending 09:45:13 sean: ACTION-514 09:45:25 ... done 09:45:39 .ACTION-514 to be closed 09:45:46 sean: ACTION-515 09:45:53 abel: closed 09:46:06 sean: ACTION-516 09:46:20 dom: done 09:46:35 sean: ACTION-517 09:47:03 ... effectively done 09:49:29 jo: caching when resolving DTDs? 09:51:49 miguel: CatalogResolved configured in properties file... 09:51:53 sean: good configuration and DTD caching done 09:52:20 sean: ACTION-518 09:53:02 [sean speaks about TesterConfiguration public class] 09:53:26 TODO Check what happens and decide what should happen when an unknown DTD is referenced 09:54:19 sean: TODO improve TesterConfiguration class 09:55:04 sean: ACTION-519 09:55:33 nacho: my POVs about the docs were commented yesterday... 1st drafts in 1 week or 2 09:55:47 [dom sets a new deadline that nacho missed O:-) ] 09:56:06 s/that nacho missed/substituting the one that nacho missed/ 09:56:25 Topic: Open Issues 09:56:39 sean: ISSUE-209 09:57:01 ACTION-543 created for perf analysis 09:57:45 lunch break 11:20:59 miguel has joined #mobileok 11:26:14 we are back! 11:42:42 http://www.w3.org/2007/09/04-mobileok-minutes.html 11:43:42 ScribeNick: ruadhan 11:43:46 Extracted Todos: 11:43:47 : complete test on extraneous characters 11:43:47 : add "about me" node (info about implementation libraries, versions, etc) 11:43:47 : missing namespaced in parsed/tidy document 11:43:47 : show whether the parsed document has been tidied 11:43:47 : encoding output not showing properly 11:43:49 : modify moki not to say "fail" for warns on CSS (distinguish errors from warnings) 11:43:51 : complete stylesheet_use to pick up the warnings 11:43:55 : omit when column undetermined 11:43:57 : deal with inline stylesheets 11:43:59 : delete stylesheetssupporttest.xsl 11:44:01 : Cahce Control test (and others) should only be carried out on the final redirect of any particular request 11:44:03 : Results need to be labelled with the document that they are moaning about if it is not the primary doc 11:44:05 : deal properly with GET forms (i.e. include empty/default values for each form element) 11:44:07 : implementing CSS parsing for extraenous white space 11:44:09 need to come up with working example for adding line number in XSL-based tests 11:44:11 track the CSS cascade issue as a known issue 11:44:13 add ability to run one test at a time 11:44:14 sean: lets look at todos 11:44:15 : check that each warn/fail condition is minimally tested by our test suite 11:44:17 build a way save test run results as the golden test result 11:44:19 add document mapping tests to description and coniditon tested 11:44:23 write up lessons learned in some form 11:44:25 fix character encoding detection in XML 11:44:27 Check what happens and decide what should happen when an unknown DTD is referenced 11:44:29 improve TesterConfiguration class 11:45:02 ...extraneous characters - lets treat as action item 11:45:16 ACTION-544 created 11:45:40 (to deal with white space) 11:46:19 ACTION-545 created for sean to deal with about-me 11:46:22 ... "about information" sean will take as action 11:46:43 ... missing namespace - track it as a bug 11:46:52 http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/enter_bug.cgi?product=mobileOK%20Basic%20checker 11:47:58 http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/ 11:51:35 [all create bugzilla account] 11:53:34 sean: show whether parsed doc has been tidied - treat as bug 11:54:49 ... encoding output - filed as bug 11:57:33 ... css fail/warning issue - filed as bug 11:57:55 HONY SOYT QUI MAL EVENCE 11:58:04 Should be 11:58:14 Honi soit qui mal y pense 12:10:23 [further TODOs added added to bugzilla] 12:10:54 Roland: WRT checking form actions, there is an issue with multiple submit buttons in forms 12:11:33 [I added the link to our bug lists from the checker task force home page] 12:16:27 jo: WRT to checking state of warn/fail conditions in test suite - hold off until next draft is completed 12:18:06 http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?query_format=specific&order=relevance+desc&bug_status=__all__&product=mobileOK+Basic+checker&content= 12:25:56 sean: we've alotted todos, and we still need to complete tests 12:26:39 ... miletsones - work towards alpha release, fix any major bugs 12:26:58 ... doesn't need to be perfect but should be ready for conference in November 12:27:20 ... rough alpha release in 5 weeks, early-mid October 12:28:00 dom: after alpha we should think about a simple web interface so we can demonstrate 12:28:18 Created ACTION-548 - Set up simple web interface on top of Java library for Alpha release [on Dominique Hazaël-Massieux - due 2007-09-12]. 12:28:30 sean: is this a realistic timeline? 12:29:03 miguel: still the issue of https certification 12:30:32 sean: i propose we put something out by October 12th 12:30:52 ... all tests written, at least one test case for each condition, and major bugs are addressed 12:31:11 ... just needs to be respectable 12:31:29 ... there is a conference 4 weeks after this date that we should have something nice for 12:32:00 PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Release 1.0 alpha on October 12. All tests implemented, with minimal regression tests, all P1 bugs fixed 12:32:33 RESOLUTION: Release 1.0 alpha on October 12. All tests implemented, with minimal regression tests, all P1 bugs fixed 12:34:50 PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Release 1.0 beta on Nov. 13 at Mobile Internet World. All P1 bugs fixed. More regression tests implemented by this point. Alpha web interface available at validator.w3.org/mobile/... 12:35:38 RESOLUTION: Release 1.0 beta on Nov. 13 at Mobile Internet World. All P1 bugs fixed. More regression tests implemented by this point. Alpha web interface available at validator.w3.org/mobile/... 12:39:03 sean: maybe tack on day at next BPWG meeting 12:39:11 jo: that might be tough 12:39:36 sean: let's play it by ear 12:41:19 ... maybe next F2F in late January 12:41:32 ... any other issues or concerns? 12:46:30 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/09/05-mobileok-minutes.html dom 13:39:53 RRSAgent, off