IRC log of swd on 2007-08-21

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:58:13 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #swd
14:58:13 [RRSAgent]
logging to
14:58:18 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #swd
14:58:22 [RalphS]
zakim, this will be swd
14:58:22 [Zakim]
ok, RalphS, I see SW_SWD()11:00AM already started
14:58:29 [RalphS]
zakim, who's on the call?
14:58:29 [Zakim]
On the phone I see ??P2
14:58:39 [RalphS]
Meeting: SemWeb Deployment WG
14:58:43 [TomB]
RalphS, was reading your mail... Thanks for starting to set up...
14:59:02 [RalphS]
14:59:15 [dlrubin]
dlrubin has joined #swd
14:59:27 [RalphS]
-> previous 2007-08-07
14:59:38 [monarcho]
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14:59:58 [RalphS]
Chair: Tom
15:00:14 [Zakim]
15:00:18 [RalphS]
rrsagent, please make record public
15:00:26 [Zakim]
15:00:29 [Guus]
Guus has joined #swd
15:00:29 [RalphS]
zakim, ??p2 is Tom
15:00:29 [Zakim]
+Tom; got it
15:00:35 [Antoine]
Antoine has joined #swd
15:00:49 [RalphS]
zakim, ??p7 is Daniel
15:00:50 [Zakim]
+Daniel; got it
15:00:58 [RalphS]
zakim, nick dlrubin is Daniel
15:00:58 [Zakim]
ok, RalphS, I now associate dlrubin with Daniel
15:01:05 [Zakim]
15:01:20 [aliman]
aliman has joined #swd
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15:01:28 [berrueta]
berrueta has joined #swd
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15:02:00 [edsu]
edsu has joined #swd
15:02:01 [RalphS]
zakim, lc is Clay
15:02:02 [Zakim]
+Clay; got it
15:02:06 [Zakim]
15:02:15 [Zakim]
15:02:25 [Zakim]
15:02:27 [Zakim]
15:02:37 [Guus]
zakim, who is here?
15:02:37 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Tom, Ralph, Daniel, Clay, Antoine, Guus, [LC], ??P19, [LC.a], abel
15:02:37 [berrueta]
Zakim, abel is me
15:02:40 [Zakim]
On IRC I see edsu, berrueta, aliman, Antoine, Guus, Clay, dlrubin, Zakim, RRSAgent, vit, TomB, RalphS
15:02:42 [Zakim]
+berrueta; got it
15:02:47 [edsu]
zakim, LC is edsu
15:02:48 [Zakim]
+edsu; got it
15:03:22 [RalphS]
zakim, lc.a is probably Justin
15:03:23 [Zakim]
+Justin?; got it
15:03:30 [Zakim]
15:03:55 [Zakim]
15:03:57 [aliman]
zakim, ??P19 is probably me
15:03:57 [Zakim]
+aliman?; got it
15:04:05 [RalphS]
zakim, ??p12 is Vit
15:04:05 [Zakim]
+Vit; got it
15:04:09 [Zakim]
15:04:36 [Guus]
zakim, who is here?
15:04:36 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Tom, Ralph, Daniel, Clay, Guus, edsu, aliman?, Justin?, berrueta, Vit, Antoine
15:04:38 [Zakim]
On IRC I see edsu, berrueta, aliman, Antoine, Guus, Clay, dlrubin, Zakim, RRSAgent, vit, TomB, RalphS
15:05:02 [RalphS]
Regrets: Jon, Simone, Bernard,
15:06:12 [seanb]
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15:06:30 [Guus]
zakim, pick a scribe
15:06:30 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose aliman?
15:06:56 [Elisa]
Elisa has joined #swd
15:07:10 [Zakim]
15:07:35 [RalphS]
zakim, ??p28 is Sean
15:07:35 [Zakim]
+Sean; got it
15:08:02 [aliman]
PROPOSED to accept minutes of 7 August telecon:
15:08:04 [aliman]
15:08:05 [aliman]
15:08:38 [aliman]
scribenick: aliman
15:09:11 [RalphS]
-> f2f registration questionnaire
15:09:13 [aliman]
tomb: f2f meeting resolved, looks like guus, tom, diego, ed, antoine, ... looks like pretty full meeting
15:09:29 [aliman]
antoine has set up meeting web page, registration form in agenda
15:09:46 [RalphS]
(only 4 people registered thus far)
15:10:13 [aliman]
guus: there is alist of hotels there. our university just outside south of city centre. hotels all between uni and city centre, nice locations
15:10:24 [RalphS]
-> Amsterdam f2f logistics
15:10:25 [aliman]
... also informed W3C office in netherlands, maybe organise something
15:11:07 [aliman]
... logistics page in VU house style, doesn't conform to accessibility guidelines, so remove style
15:11:41 [aliman]
ACTION: Antoine & Guus will take on setting up logistics [recorded in]
15:11:42 [aliman]
15:12:19 [aliman]
guus: tomb & I to do agenda and set up list of documents. We should look at main issues on table, and distribute preparation work. Set some targets, e.g. issues to resolbe at f2f.
15:12:26 [aliman]
15:12:37 [aliman]
tomb: note new issue about drawing pictures ...
15:12:39 [Guus]
[echo is back]
15:13:14 [aliman]
... good topic to quickly get feedback on, need high level diagram on what SKOS is about ... something useful to have, good to discuss at f2f. Any volunteers to start drawing a picture?
15:13:21 [aliman]
q+ to mention pictures drawn
15:13:42 [Guus]
q+ to ask a question about the ftf that I forgot
15:13:48 [aliman]
tomb: put on agenda for amsterdam, not at top of agenda, but way to make sure we're all on same page wrt bigger picture
15:13:55 [TomB]
ack aliman
15:13:55 [Zakim]
aliman, you wanted to mention pictures drawn
15:14:11 [RalphS]
Alistair: I just finished writing a tutorial on vocabularies for next week's Dublin Core conference
15:14:14 [aliman] -> tutorial on vocabularies for DC 2007
15:14:30 [cgi-irc]
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15:14:58 [RalphS]
Alistair: without thinking specifically about SKOS, I did draw some pictures of what 'vocabularies' are; these might be useful input
15:15:23 [aliman]
guus: question about F2F - if people are interested, can organise social get together on sunday, that is an option. I'll include in logistics page.
15:15:56 [Antoine]
q+ to mention UML and BS
15:15:59 [Zakim]
15:16:15 [TomB]
yes, Internet problems too...
15:17:01 [aliman]
guus: issue is drawing the pictures ... leave until tomb's back
15:17:09 [Zakim]
15:17:14 [aliman]
... aim to have first list of isssues to resolve at f2f
15:17:23 [aliman]
... issue 26 relationships between labels
15:18:04 [aliman]
... issue 35 on concept scheme containment
15:18:13 [aliman]
... these are two currently on our list.
15:18:34 [aliman]
... maybe best for one of us (me) to go through issues and propose a list.
15:21:29 [aliman]
tomb: support alistairs' "central issues" suggestion about issues to tackle first at f2f
15:21:55 [aliman] -> Alistair's SKOS central issues email
15:22:08 [Guus]
[sorry, I'm back]
15:22:19 [aliman]
antoine: alistair raised two issues about semantics of labels, 32 is also involved, wanted to raise this as possibility
15:23:12 [aliman]
tomb: just talking about alistair's proposal back in june to focus on 3 central issues - skos:Concept, labeling properties, semantic relation properties. These three central ideas good way to approach several other issues. Alistair proposed we approach all these issues by looking at draft for SKOS semantics.
15:23:39 [aliman]
... so we could come up with a reading list, around discussion on these three cetnral ideas, look at them in light of draft semantics doc.
15:23:56 [aliman]
guus: nice if, for each issue, have separate issue owner who prepares discussion.
15:24:16 [aliman]
tomb: if first issue is 54 (concept semantics) ... any volunteers to shepherd discussion?
15:25:22 [RalphS]
-> issue 54
15:25:41 [RalphS]
-> all issues
15:26:22 [aliman]
... notion of a skos:Concept, and any other related issues.
15:26:44 [aliman]
antoine: concept semantics, also related to problem of mixing with owl classes, so perhaps can volunteer?
15:27:07 [RalphS]
-> issue 44; BroaderNarrowerSemantics
15:27:16 [aliman]
... 44 is slightly different - broader/narrower semantics. heard someone discussing?
15:27:24 [aliman]
aliman: some discussion of transitivity?
15:27:47 [aliman]
antoine: 54 different to 44, so I volunteer for 54 but not 44.
15:28:10 [Zakim]
15:28:19 [aliman]
tomb: issue 54 -> topic "SKOS Concept" a.k.a. "Concept Semantics"
15:29:04 [aliman]
... owner Antoine
15:29:05 [aliman]
... issue 31 -> topic "Labeling Properties", owner Alistair
15:30:15 [aliman]
... leaves issue 44 -> topic "Broader Narrower Semantics" owner Sean
15:30:40 [aliman]
... on topic of drawing pictures, alistair has proposed some diagrams, anyone else to take ownership?
15:30:56 [aliman]
sean: I raised question of drawing pictures, but don't want to take on too much ...
15:31:09 [Guus]
I volunteer for ISSUE 26 LavelRelations
15:31:38 [aliman]
tomb: related to issue of semantic relation properties, figuring out where boundaries lie. Is there natural progression, draw picture before, during and after those three?
15:32:16 [aliman]
sean: draw picture before - rough idea of shared interpretation, so having as setting the scene would be useful. If do it after, discover we're talking about different things, could be awkward.
15:32:53 [aliman]
tomb: ideally progress on drawing pictures before meeting, but ideally done f2f. propose we put that first in the agenda, item on drawing the picture.
15:33:13 [aliman]
... see in IRC, Guus volunteers for issue 26 label relations
15:33:39 [aliman]
... so we have four topics, extract to draft agenda.
15:35:23 [aliman]
antoine: four topics, concept scheme containment dropped from discussion on purpose?
15:35:24 [aliman]
tomb: not dropped on purpose. fit into existing topics?
15:35:26 [aliman]
antoine: I guess no.
15:35:27 [aliman]
sean: containment partiall addressed by drawing the picture notion. e.g. do you consider relationships to be part of concept scheme, or part of terms ... questions teased out when thinking of the model.
15:35:51 [aliman]
tomb: if we address drawing the picture and issue 36 as first part of meeting at same time, still need topic leader
15:36:53 [aliman]
... alistair, antoine, sean, guus have volunteered. no volunteers. put in placeholder, grouping issue 36 together with drawing the picture, for now. hope to come up with volunteer.
15:37:06 [Zakim]
15:37:19 [aliman]
elisa: happy to help with drawing pictures, maybe need some help ...
15:37:59 [aliman]
... need some guidance to get it right. don't have budget to come to amsterdam, but can be on the phone.
15:38:16 [TomB]
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15:39:19 [aliman]
sean: have looked today at references jon and antoine had pointed to on zthes and bs8273, found those useful, could already see differences between them, useful already.
15:39:49 [aliman]
antoine: can i ask about bs 8723, seemed relevant, actually some UML diagrams already available?
15:39:50 [Zakim]
15:40:25 [RalphS]
rrsagent, pointer?
15:40:25 [RRSAgent]
15:41:28 [aliman]
elisa: i did attend with jon and clay the open forum meeting in NY in June, i know some people from work at OMG, so if we need contact folks on ISO side, know people. there is work on FBER? at OMG, representation of semantics for business rules, also have some pictures, done work with ISO 1087 terminology for vocabulary work, general vocabulary terms, access to that and folks on ISO...
15:41:30 [aliman]
...committee who developed it. Clay and ed know those people, Jon knows some people.
15:42:00 [aliman]
... some of them have worked with NCI, so Daniel probably knows. Lots of people could help, need focus. Have access to this, hopefully helpful.
15:42:44 [aliman]
tomb: try to go through discussion of SKOS today? elisa asked time for VM.
15:43:07 [aliman]
... suggest we go through actions ..
15:43:15 [aliman]
ACTION: Guus to email a proposal to the list about the issue of containment [recorded in]
15:43:36 [aliman]
15:43:51 [aliman]
ACTION: Guus to move ISSUE-26 forward [recorded in].
15:44:05 [aliman]
15:44:23 [aliman]
ACTION: Guus to post user experience reports for ISSUE-26 [recorded in]
15:44:25 [aliman]
15:44:33 [aliman]
ACTION: Alistair to state the difference between the two flavours of the SimpleExtension proposal for issue 26 [recorded in]
15:44:34 [aliman]
15:45:12 [aliman]
TOPIC: Vocabulary Management
15:45:35 [RalphS]
-> Vocabulary Management wiki draft [ast edited 2007-08-21 05:40:02 by ElisaKendal]
15:45:44 [RalphS]
15:46:09 [aliman]
elisa: i've been looking at wiki, talking with some people, preparation for meeting on ontologies for US intelligence community, interest in VM, re-use of ontologies in public domain. Fits nicely with what we want to do here, requirements are smaller.
15:47:10 [aliman]
... have revised some things from wiki, front matter. section using URIs for naming ... things you would anticipate, pointing to recipes document (schemes people use for developing URI schemes), or relative to setting up policies for managing URIs, stating policies etc.
15:47:23 [aliman]
... in that first para, have taken as far as I can without further input from others
15:47:45 [aliman]
... ask for few key people to read that section, number 1 under principles of good practice, give some examples
15:48:46 [aliman]
... have captured link to recipes, choosing namespaces. don't have examples around ownership of URI spaces, domain registration; good practices for persisting URIs - daniel and/or tom - on policies of delegating use of URIs in collection environment, where different people developing different vocabs, link to bioportal.
15:49:07 [aliman]
... feedback on first section, tom or daniel? to write something and finish first para
15:49:18 [RalphS]
q+ to note existence of HCLSIG URI document
15:49:54 [aliman]
tomb: write to the list, summarising input needed. then get others. i'll be at DC 2007 next week, so if have description of where you want to take next ...
15:50:32 [TomB]
q+ to mention SWEO review of Leo Sauermann
15:50:57 [aliman]
elisa: will send that out, may ask for input on following sections as well. think second & third topics, documentation - DC is good example; maintenance policies, DC and FOAF or broader collection e.g. bioportal, both are relevant. try to send broader email asking for input.
15:51:03 [aliman]
... shouldn't take a lot of time.
15:51:13 [aliman]
ACTION: elisa to ask for feedback on VM draft
15:51:42 [aliman]
elisa: feel free to edit, contribute especially in sections i highlight.
15:52:31 [RalphS]
-> Paper: URI Identity Management for Semantic Web Data Integration and Linkage
15:52:36 [aliman]
tomb: i put link into IRC, document called cool URIs... doc has been reviewed by TAG, is now in SWEO, they are looking at possibliity of publishing as a W3C note
15:53:00 [aliman]
... wanted to suggest we review that doc as well, in context of f2f meeting.
15:53:22 [aliman]
... put VM on agenda?
15:53:46 [aliman]
elisa: yes, prefer end of the day. lots of SKOS f2f work which needs to be done, so ...
15:54:14 [RalphS]
-> HCLSIG BioRDF subgroup task on URI Best Practices
15:54:19 [aliman]
guus: end of first day, could schedule last session on monday 8, 4-5:30 still early for you?
15:54:29 [edsu]
tomb: there's also by the same authors
15:55:22 [aliman]
tomb: if you could take SWEO doc under review, see how it overlaps or relates to what we want to do
15:55:50 [aliman]
... there have been comment on that doc from TAG, already incorporated do at advanced stage. question of scope w.r.t. doc we want to write.
15:56:40 [aliman]
ralph: also, HCLSIG has a task working on URI best practices in healthcare area, would expect this WG would be formally asked for input on that.
15:56:52 [aliman]
... clearly active area, lots of things been written.
15:56:58 [aliman]
daniel: should reach out to them?
15:57:13 [aliman]
... i joined some of there telcons, so happy to approach.
15:57:32 [aliman]
ralph: not sure if editor's draft wiki oage, if they've yet asked for input?
15:57:38 [aliman]
15:57:48 [aliman]
ralph: good to identify someone as liaison
15:57:56 [aliman]
daniel: happy to liase
15:58:14 [aliman]
ralph: LSIG will publish IG note, expect us to be asked for review before publish
15:58:40 [aliman]
tomb: good to have at end of day (8 oct) discussion of VM issues, looking at various drafts being produced
15:59:21 [RalphS]
-> F2F registration (October 8-9)
15:59:36 [aliman]
... straightforward task of leading a discussion, any volunteer? 2 or 3 papers on this, including our own VM draft, elisa there remotely but probably hard to lead remotely, so good to have someone in WG who is willing to lead discussion locally & help elisa participate remotely.
15:59:42 [aliman]
ralph: I can do that.
16:00:02 [aliman]
TOPIC: Recipes
16:00:07 [aliman]
tomb: put this on agenda?
16:00:33 [aliman]
.... for f2f.
16:00:50 [aliman]
... would need critical mass of people willing to prepare that. leave a question mark.
16:00:54 [aliman]
16:01:31 [aliman]
ralph: I missed last weeks rdfa call, so don't know if TF has considered question of f2f agenda.
16:01:56 [aliman]
... given that several TF members are in europe, steve p in amsterdam ...
16:02:00 [RalphS]
-> 16 Aug RDFa TF telecon
16:02:19 [aliman]
ACTION: ralph to raise agenda question in RDFa telcon
16:02:27 [aliman]
tomb: AOB? adjourned.
16:02:28 [RalphS]
s/agenda/RDFa on f2f agenda/
16:02:29 [Zakim]
16:02:30 [Zakim]
16:02:30 [Zakim]
16:02:33 [Zakim]
16:02:34 [Zakim]
16:02:35 [dlrubin]
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16:02:36 [Zakim]
16:02:37 [Zakim]
16:02:38 [Zakim]
16:02:39 [Zakim]
16:02:40 [RalphS]
zakim, list participants
16:02:40 [Zakim]
16:02:42 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been Ralph, Tom, Daniel, Antoine, Guus, Clay, berrueta, edsu, Justin?, aliman?, Vit, Sean, TomB, Elisa_Kendall, Tom_Baker
16:04:18 [edsu]
edsu has left #swd
16:04:55 [Antoine]
Antoine has left #swd
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16:19:20 [RalphS]
16:22:15 [Zakim]
16:22:17 [Zakim]
16:54:33 [TomB]
zakim, who was on the call?
16:54:33 [Zakim]
I don't understand your question, TomB.
16:54:47 [TomB]
zakim, please list attendees
16:54:47 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been Ralph, Tom, Daniel, Antoine, Guus, Clay, berrueta, edsu, Justin?, aliman?, Vit, Sean, TomB, Elisa_Kendall, Tom_Baker
16:54:57 [TomB]
rrsagent, please draft minutes
16:54:57 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate TomB
17:19:20 [Zakim]
SW_SWD()11:00AM has ended
17:19:21 [Zakim]
Attendees were Ralph, Tom, Daniel, Antoine, Guus, Clay, berrueta, edsu, Justin?, aliman?, Vit, Sean, TomB, Elisa_Kendall, Tom_Baker
18:06:57 [RalphS]
zakim, bye
18:06:57 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #swd
18:07:03 [RalphS]
rrsagent, bye
18:07:03 [RRSAgent]
I see 7 open action items saved in :
18:07:03 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Antoine & Guus will take on setting up logistics [recorded in] [1]
18:07:03 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
18:07:03 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Guus to email a proposal to the list about the issue of containment [recorded in] [2]
18:07:03 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
18:07:03 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Guus to move ISSUE-26 forward [recorded in]. [3]
18:07:03 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
18:07:03 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Guus to post user experience reports for ISSUE-26 [recorded in] [4]
18:07:03 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
18:07:03 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Alistair to state the difference between the two flavours of the SimpleExtension proposal for issue 26 [recorded in] [5]
18:07:03 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
18:07:03 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: elisa to ask for feedback on VM draft [6]
18:07:03 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
18:07:03 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: ralph to raise agenda question in RDFa telcon [7]
18:07:03 [RRSAgent]
recorded in