IRC log of rdfa on 2007-08-16

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:51:36 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #rdfa
14:51:36 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/08/16-rdfa-irc
14:51:47 [Steven]
rrsagent, make log public
14:51:56 [Steven]
zakim, this will be rdfa
14:51:56 [Zakim]
ok, Steven; I see SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM scheduled to start in 9 minutes
14:52:13 [Steven]
Meeting: Weekly RDFa Teleconference
14:52:40 [Steven]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Aug/0139
14:52:46 [Steven]
Steven has changed the topic to: Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Aug/0139
14:52:52 [Steven]
Scribe: Steven
14:52:56 [Steven]
Chair: Ben
14:54:09 [Steven]
Previous -> http://www.w3.org/2007/08/09-rdfa-minutes
14:54:14 [Steven]
rrsagent, make minutes
14:54:14 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/08/16-rdfa-minutes.html Steven
14:55:56 [Steven]
Regrets: Shane
14:57:07 [mhausenblas]
hello everyone ... I'd like to add an agenda item
14:57:54 [mhausenblas]
Regarding @resource/@href as of http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Aug/0134.html
14:58:48 [mhausenblas]
Steven, may I add this one?
15:00:22 [Steven]
Hi there. You have to ask Ben not me!
15:00:36 [Steven]
zakim, dial steven-617
15:00:36 [Zakim]
ok, Steven; the call is being made
15:00:38 [Zakim]
SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has now started
15:00:40 [Zakim]
+Steven
15:00:46 [benadida]
benadida has joined #rdfa
15:00:55 [Zakim]
+??P10
15:00:56 [Zakim]
-??P10
15:00:57 [Zakim]
+??P10
15:01:20 [Zakim]
+benadida
15:01:24 [mhausenblas]
zakim, who is here?
15:01:24 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Steven, ??P10, benadida
15:01:25 [Zakim]
On IRC I see benadida, RRSAgent, Zakim, mhausenblas, kwijibo, Steven
15:01:35 [Steven]
zakim, ??P10 is mhausenblas
15:01:35 [Zakim]
+mhausenblas; got it
15:03:44 [mhausenblas]
-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Aug/0134.html
15:06:29 [mhausenblas]
agenda+ RDFa syntax - @resource/@href [mhausenblas]
15:07:08 [markbirbeck]
markbirbeck has joined #rdfa
15:07:18 [markbirbeck]
zakim, code?
15:07:18 [Zakim]
the conference code is 7332 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), markbirbeck
15:07:21 [mhausenblas]
-> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/track/issues/59
15:07:42 [Steven]
Topic: Action Items
15:08:02 [Zakim]
+??P8
15:08:03 [Steven]
[NEW] ACTION: Michael add @xml:base issue to tracker [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/09-rdfa-minutes.html#action09]
15:08:28 [markbirbeck]
zakim, i am ?
15:08:28 [Zakim]
+markbirbeck; got it
15:08:30 [Steven]
mh: This is the same as issue 57
15:08:40 [Steven]
... we should merge
15:09:42 [Steven]
Steven: The XHTML2 WG discussed this this week and have an opinion
15:10:03 [Steven]
Ben: We have two isses 57 and 69, raised and not opened
15:10:10 [Steven]
s/69/59/
15:10:19 [Steven]
... let us accept 59 as open issue
15:10:22 [benadida]
http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/track/issues/59
15:10:44 [Steven]
-- done
15:11:21 [Steven]
Ben: Let us agree that we need to deal with this issue
15:11:24 [Steven]
... disagree?
15:11:34 [Steven]
... On hearing none, I will make it an open issue
15:12:03 [Steven]
[NEW] ACTION: Mark summarize in mail host language-dependent issues such as @lang and @xml:lang [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/09-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]
15:12:41 [Steven]
-- done
15:13:00 [Steven]
[NEW] ACTION: Michael remove excess xmlns: declarations from test cases [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/09-rdfa-minutes.html#action10]
15:13:04 [Steven]
-- done
15:13:05 [mhausenblas]
-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Aug/0133.html
15:13:40 [Steven]
[PENDING] ACTION: Ben to look into Science Commons use case [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/11-htmltf-minutes.html#action04]
15:13:51 [Steven]
[PENDING] ACTION: Ben to recontact implementors Elias, MarkB, triplr and post their implementations to http://esw.w3.org/topic/RDFa#Implementations [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/02-rdfa-minutes.html#action09]
15:14:34 [Steven]
Ben: I will contact Fabian as well
15:14:49 [Steven]
[PENDING] ACTION: Ben to sum up @href/@resource everywhere proposal [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/12-rdfa-minutes.html#action10]
15:15:01 [Steven]
-- done
15:15:10 [mhausenblas]
-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Aug/0138.html
15:15:11 [Steven]
[PENDING] ACTION: Ben to work through xml:lang issue with Ivan [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/02-rdfa-minutes.html#action07]
15:15:34 [Steven]
Ben: Maybe irrelevant after Mark's email. We'll look at it next week
15:15:48 [Steven]
mh: Needs resolving for the test cases
15:15:59 [Steven]
[PENDING] ACTION: Elias to send email to list with use case from IBM [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action10]
15:16:06 [Steven]
-- Withdrawn
15:16:35 [Steven]
Ben: Things are changing at IBM, not sure if Elias will rejoin the calls
15:16:43 [Steven]
Topic: Test cases
15:16:58 [Steven]
-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Aug/0015.html
15:17:01 [mhausenblas]
-> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/RDFaTC#Approval_2007-08-09
15:17:20 [Steven]
mh: We did 29-33 last week, so all is well
15:17:57 [Steven]
... see last week's minutes
15:18:19 [Steven]
Ben: So I haven't caught up with emails yet. WHo was on the call last week
15:18:25 [mhausenblas]
-> http://www.w3.org/2007/08/09-rdfa-minutes.html#item02
15:18:59 [Steven]
Ben: Steven, please look at the test cases that we approved last week
15:19:14 [Steven]
ACTION: Steven to check test cases 29-33
15:19:29 [Steven]
mh: Take a look at the wiki page
15:19:58 [Steven]
Ben: Any other test cases?
15:20:04 [Steven]
mh: ALl dependent on open issues
15:20:09 [Steven]
s/ALl/All/
15:20:38 [Steven]
ACTION: mh to add a test case for @src
15:20:59 [Steven]
Topic: Issue 42
15:21:13 [Steven]
s/42/55/
15:22:24 [Steven]
Ben: So rather than depending on the CURIE spec the proposal is that we hardwire the CURIE syntax into the RDFa spec
15:22:26 [mhausenblas]
-> http://www.jenitennison.com/blog/node/49 blog post on this issue
15:23:23 [Steven]
mh: This was an interesting blog
15:23:49 [Steven]
Mark: This blog convinced me that we need to mention CURIEs explicitely
15:24:19 [Steven]
... the author just talks about a mess, and we should show we have a good solution
15:25:55 [Steven]
... we have updated the CURIEs document with a better syntax so that we can either insert the text or refer to it, however we want
15:26:39 [mhausenblas]
q+ to ask on the actual implementation
15:26:54 [Steven]
... we will be raising and promoting the document
15:27:08 [Steven]
Stevfen: There has been a suggestion we should have a CURIE session at the TP
15:27:16 [Steven]
s/vfen/ven/
15:27:36 [Steven]
Ben: I agree that this is the right *technical* solution. The problem is the politics
15:28:26 [Steven]
Mark: I don't think it is as bad as you think, but I don't mind if we don't argue about this one, as long as we don't resolve "we won't use CURIEs"
15:28:39 [Steven]
... especially in the light of SPARQL doing the right thing
15:29:17 [Steven]
Ben: If we include the text now, and come last call hope that people will say "Why aren't you referring to the CURIE spec?"
15:29:24 [mhausenblas]
ack me
15:29:24 [Zakim]
mhausenblas, you wanted to ask on the actual implementation
15:29:27 [Steven]
Mark: Good
15:30:05 [Steven]
Ben: So the question to be asked "Do we use QNames or CURIEs?" is answered at first with "We do not use QNames"
15:30:10 [mhausenblas]
+1
15:30:19 [Steven]
Mark: And refer to the SPARQL case
15:30:47 [Steven]
... which uses the exact same entry in the IRI syntax as we do
15:31:12 [benadida]
Propose to RESOLVE: RDFa does not use QNames for shortening URIs, as that is technically incorrect. We use the equivalent of CURIEs, exactly as SPARQL. We will include the definition of CURIES inline with the RDFa syntax, though we may eventually choose to refer to the CURIE doc instead.
15:31:14 [Steven]
Ben: So we use the equivalent of CURIEs exactly as SPARQL
15:32:10 [Steven]
Steven: Second
15:32:12 [mhausenblas]
+1
15:33:07 [Steven]
Mark: Agree.
15:33:17 [Steven]
RESOLUTION: RDFa does not use QNames for shortening URIs, as that is technically incorrect. We use the equivalent of CURIEs, exactly as SPARQL. We will include the definition of CURIES inline with the RDFa syntax, though we may eventually choose to refer to the CURIE doc instead.
15:33:47 [Steven]
rrsagent, make minutes
15:33:47 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/08/16-rdfa-minutes.html Steven
15:34:08 [Steven]
Topic: Issue 42
15:34:16 [Steven]
Ben: @src on img element
15:34:57 [Steven]
Ben: We haven't voted; but we're going to try it in implementations
15:35:09 [Steven]
... to see what breaks
15:35:38 [benadida]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Jul/0209.html
15:36:18 [Steven]
Ben: The main idea is that @src will behave like @href
15:36:25 [Steven]
mh: With lower priority
15:36:31 [Steven]
Ben: We could decide that later
15:38:04 [Steven]
Ben: So we need a test case, to drive the implementors
15:38:20 [Steven]
ACTION: mh to write an img@src test case
15:38:36 [Steven]
ACTION: Ben to update the bookmarklet to handle img@src
15:39:04 [Steven]
TOPIC: rdfa-syntax document
15:39:14 [Steven]
Ben: Status?
15:39:31 [Steven]
Mark: We are working on CURIEs
15:39:42 [Steven]
... next stop is the syntax document
15:39:52 [Steven]
q+
15:40:44 [Steven]
Ben: As soon as possible we should have an editor's draft of the doc
15:41:34 [Steven]
http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Drafts/#rdfa-syntax
15:42:23 [mhausenblas]
Zakim, ack Steven
15:42:23 [Zakim]
I see no one on the speaker queue
15:42:39 [Steven]
Steven: We have a URL for the editor's draft
15:43:41 [mhausenblas]
Michael: In -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Aug/0134.html I asked about @resouce usage
15:43:43 [Steven]
Ben: I have been added to the CVS mails, and that's great
15:44:33 [Steven]
Steven: There are no differences yet to the current document
15:44:45 [Steven]
... it has only been entered into the XHTML2 pub system
15:45:04 [Steven]
Ben: On the primer, there are no massive changes needed, but there are a few
15:45:15 [Steven]
... for instance for @resoruce
15:45:25 [Steven]
s/resoruce/resource
15:45:57 [Steven]
Ben: there is no resolution on instanceof yet, we need to move that one on
15:46:11 [benadida]
Michael's proposal: As per TAG finding httpRange-14 [5] the value of @href MUST be an information resource, and the value of @resource MAY be an information resource. RDFa authors SHALL use a URI that identifies a non-information resources for the value of @resource.
15:46:21 [mhausenblas]
Michael: as of -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Aug/0134.html
15:46:43 [mhausenblas]
Zakim, agenda?
15:46:43 [Zakim]
I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
15:46:44 [Zakim]
1. RDFa syntax - @resource/@href [from mhausenblas]
15:46:55 [Steven]
Topic: @resource/@href
15:47:45 [Steven]
'As per TAG finding httpRange-14 [5] the value of @href
15:47:45 [Steven]
MUST be an information resource, and the value of @resource
15:47:45 [Steven]
MAY be an information resource. RDFa authors SHALL use a URI
15:47:45 [Steven]
that identifies a non-information resources for the value
15:47:45 [Steven]
of @resource.'
15:48:04 [markbirbeck]
q+
15:48:16 [Steven]
... it seems to be overstepping our bounds
15:48:21 [Steven]
Mark: I totally agree
15:48:37 [Steven]
... HTML doesn't say what can go in an href, so we shouldn't eihter
15:48:47 [Steven]
s/eihter/either/
15:49:12 [Steven]
Ben: THis seems more like a best practice than a MUST
15:49:18 [Steven]
s/TH/Th/
15:49:39 [Steven]
... and maybe a wiki page on best practice would be a good idea
15:50:16 [Steven]
mh: This was a proposal to make things clear
15:50:25 [Steven]
... like we do with CURIEs
15:50:31 [Steven]
... but I'm happy with what you said
15:51:12 [Steven]
Mark: There is no difference between a resource and a non-resource
15:51:31 [Steven]
... I only wanted to make it possible to make a non-clickable reference to a non-resource
15:51:54 [Steven]
mh: It is an RDF issue, not an RDFa issue
15:52:28 [Steven]
Mark: The difference won't show up in the triples
15:53:04 [Steven]
Ben: I propose a resolution
15:53:39 [Steven]
... that we won't require this proposal, but that we will create a best practices document
15:53:54 [benadida]
proposed RESOLUTION: we do not place restrictions on the URIs in @href and @resource, but we will create a wiki page of good practices for certain use cases.
15:54:45 [Steven]
Mark: Let's make sure the examples are in the primer, and not labour the point
15:54:50 [mhausenblas]
+1
15:55:01 [Steven]
mh: I second
15:55:12 [Steven]
RESOLUTION: we do not place restrictions on the URIs in @href and @resource, but we will create a wiki page of good practices for certain use cases.
15:55:29 [Steven]
ACTION: mh to create best practices wiki page
15:55:58 [Steven]
ACTION: Ben to work test cases 31 and 32 into primer
15:56:28 [Steven]
Topic: xml:base
15:56:32 [mhausenblas]
-> http://www.w3.org/2007/08/09-rdfa-irc#T15-14-56
15:56:51 [Steven]
Ben: Mark's email looks like it is about greater context than XHTML 1.1
15:57:24 [Steven]
Mark: I tried to think of things we would want (rel paths, mappings, and lang) that it would be wrong for us to define
15:57:32 [Steven]
... since it should come from the host language
15:57:39 [Steven]
q+
15:57:53 [Steven]
... xml:base comes into that category
15:58:46 [Steven]
Steven: I propose we say that URI processing is defined by the host language
15:59:18 [Steven]
Ben: So in XHTML 1.1 it would be the base element and not xml:base that applies
15:59:40 [Steven]
Mark: We should understand xml:base, but not impost it on langauges
15:59:49 [Steven]
s/post/pose/
16:00:03 [mhausenblas]
Michael: XML Base is clearly defined in -> http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlbase/
16:00:17 [Steven]
Mark: The XHTML2 WG may add an xml:base module for use in other languages
16:02:33 [Steven]
Mark: But we don't know what the application supports
16:02:49 [Steven]
... we have to process it if we find it
16:03:21 [Steven]
Ben: My application outsources the work to the browser
16:03:28 [Steven]
... it does the resolution for me
16:03:53 [Steven]
mh: Then you depend on the browser
16:04:26 [Steven]
Steven: What would Google do if it processed RDFa?
16:04:50 [Steven]
Mark: So in my processor I always process xml:base
16:05:12 [Steven]
... but you are suggesting that if I am not in XML mode, I have to detect what I *am* processing
16:05:22 [Steven]
... I can live with that
16:05:35 [mhausenblas]
Michael: -> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/RDFaInHTML needs an update
16:06:31 [Steven]
Ben: So in XHTML 1.1 xml:base has no effect (assuming we can detect that it is XHTML 1.1)
16:06:48 [mhausenblas]
+1
16:06:54 [Steven]
Ben: So resolved
16:07:07 [Steven]
RESOLUTION: in XHTML 1.1 xml:base has no effect
16:07:13 [Steven]
[adjourn]
16:07:13 [Zakim]
-markbirbeck
16:07:16 [Zakim]
-mhausenblas
16:07:16 [Steven]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:07:16 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/08/16-rdfa-minutes.html Steven
16:07:22 [Zakim]
-Steven
16:07:27 [Zakim]
-benadida
16:07:28 [Zakim]
SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has ended
16:07:29 [Zakim]
Attendees were Steven, benadida, mhausenblas, markbirbeck
16:07:35 [Steven]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:07:35 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/08/16-rdfa-minutes.html Steven
16:22:27 [benadida]
benadida has left #rdfa
18:03:15 [ShaneM]
ShaneM has joined #rdfa