16:32:26 RRSAgent has joined #ua 16:32:26 logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/08/02-ua-irc 16:32:44 rrsagent, set logs public 16:32:56 zakim, this will be wai_u 16:32:56 ok, AllanJ; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 28 minutes 16:33:22 title: UAWG teleconference 16:36:10 agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2007JulSep/0040.html 16:36:22 Chair: Jim Allan 16:48:05 JR has joined #ua 16:52:04 KFord has joined #ua 16:52:35 WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started 16:52:42 +Jim_Allan 16:53:55 +[Microsoft] 16:54:27 +clc4tts 16:54:27 zakim, [Microsoft] is really KFord 16:54:28 +KFord; got it 16:55:09 +Jan_Richards 16:55:31 zakim, clc4tts is really Charles Chen 16:55:31 I don't understand 'clc4tts is really Charles Chen', AllanJ 16:55:43 zakim, +clc4tts is really Charles Chen 16:55:43 I don't understand '+clc4tts is really Charles Chen', AllanJ 16:55:54 zakim, +clc4tts is really Charles_Chen 16:55:54 sorry, AllanJ, I do not recognize a party named '+clc4tts' 16:56:03 zakim, clc4tts is really Charles_Chen 16:56:03 +Charles_Chen; got it 16:56:33 Scribe: JR 16:56:41 clchen has joined #ua 16:58:45 Action KF: Update Guideline 2 of the wiki 16:59:03 + +1.727.581.aaaa 16:59:50 zakim, +1.727.581.aaaa is really ScottH 16:59:50 +ScottH; got it 17:02:46 Topic: Charles Chen author of FireVox participating on call. Discuss AJAX and UA 17:02:46 behavior 17:03:18 JA: Had an action item to set this up. 17:03:30 JA: Talked on the phone with CC last week... 17:03:39 JA: Please give intro. 17:03:50 CC: Created test cases for mozilla... 17:03:51 +[IBM] 17:04:04 http://accessibleajax.clcworld.net/ 17:04:12 zakim, [IBM] is really pparente 17:04:12 +pparente; got it 17:04:26 zakim, [IBM] is PPerente 17:04:26 sorry, AllanJ, I do not recognize a party named '[IBM]' 17:04:29 CC: This example has live regions... 17:04:45 CC: I've built live region support into FireVox 17:04:52 zakim, +[IBM] is PPerente 17:04:52 sorry, AllanJ, I do not recognize a party named '+[IBM]' 17:05:39 CC: Lots of questions about how to handle changing areas - what amount of context should be read. 17:06:56 JA: So concern last week was what to do when live region has focus and then it gets updated... several possibilities... 17:07:16 JA: WHat we are looking for is whether there should be a UA setting 17:07:36 CC: Yes the user could turn off javascript, so no more updates 17:07:49 CC: Independent control might be a problem 17:08:12 CC: Live regions may be interdependent so not ok just to have one region blocked 17:08:23 CC: All on/off seems ok 17:08:40 CC: Very interesting what to do when focus is on 17:09:05 CC: But DOM node removed and a new node is added so focus necessarily is bumped off 17:09:26 CC: But screen reader could be smat and take user back. 17:09:35 CC: re: Change during use 17:10:06 CC: Usually SR loads chunks of text at a time so unlikely to break mid-sentence 17:10:45 JA: Another scenario, link in llive region, want to follow link but its not there anymore 17:11:10 CC: Well yeah but its gone so nothing to click on, maybe there could be a history feature 17:11:34 CC: Another question is how this should be done...should be a browser thing not an AT thing 17:11:51 CC: Browsers already cache back/forward pages 17:12:03 CC: But that's a looking ahead thing. 17:13:03 JA: So politeness levels....maybe there should be a don't update till I tell you 17:13:31 CC: Not such a good idea 17:13:42 CC: Really should be up to author 17:14:26 CC: Maybe I could put tabindex=-1 on every control and then look for user and don't change nodes with focus. 17:14:53 JA: So how exactly does update happen? 17:15:09 JA: In old day metarefresh could be blocked by AT 17:15:27 CC: Live region don't even need to do http request. 17:16:00 CC: Just using javascript - could be completely cklientside - eg. using author input 17:16:12 CC: The key is DOM node manipulation 17:16:37 JA: So content could come from anywhere. 17:16:41 CC: Right 17:16:44 http://accessibleajax.clcworld.net/scoreboard/scoreboard.htm 17:17:14 CC: This is a sportscore example, but it's all randomly generated 17:17:29 JA: So when something flashes... 17:18:24 CC: In that example, everything is "polite" 17:19:38 CC: Firevox remebers which areas change, not what the change was - when user wants, it goes back and reads the current content 17:20:19 CC: There is another thing called "relevant"...but PF's use case is fairly weak 17:20:42 Correction: "Relevant" Will be in there... 17:20:59 but relevant="interim" prob won't be there 17:21:27 JA: Could you conceive of a UA negotiating politeness 17:22:10 CC: Definately, yin Firevox you can set Strict-WAI-ARIA and you can also set OFF which igniores author-set politeness 17:22:25 CC: Ony difficulty is how to present it to the user 17:23:00 CC: Very difficult on a per live region basis - tricky UI 17:23:17 CC: But algorithmically fairly simple 17:24:14 JA: UA has wrestled with the granularity of configurability as well 17:24:32 JA: Could be done by cookies 17:24:52 CC: Yes, but AT could remember it as well 17:25:53 JA: ANother question...without AT, what makes flashing 17:26:14 CC: Just made it a good example to draw the eye 17:26:18 http://accessibleajax.clcworld.net/simple/live_off.htm 17:26:27 CC: It is an authoring decision 17:26:48 JA: Another confiurability question... 17:27:14 So if I need help focussing, maybe I could ask the UA to flash. 17:27:51 JA: But others may want to turn flashing off 17:28:51 CC: Yes browsers could do that - DOM Inspector tool does something similar 17:29:34 CC: But maybe turn javascript off to prevent flashing 17:29:51 CC: But how granular? 17:30:25 CC: e.g. could write protect stle attributes 17:31:31 KF: Concerned that average user won't want lots of configuration 17:32:39 JA: RIght - that's why some sites have ability to zoom site, since many people don't know UA can do that 17:33:41 CC: Could also cue up changes for some num. of secs, etc 17:34:32 CC: But throttling is tricky...author can do it easily... 17:35:06 CC: But if user agent needs to do it...may not know where to cut it off. 17:36:32 CC: Describes example of UA that turns off Javascript for 10 secs etc 17:37:00 KF: A while back I made some of these points some time back 17:37:32 KF: Think author should be encouraged to understand this and facilitate this control 17:37:49 JA: Could give live regions a title? 17:38:09 JA: Could go with toggling politeness 17:38:32 CC: Can give a good example. 17:38:33 http://reefchat.overscore.com/ 17:39:20 Reefchat is fully Firevox compatible 17:39:33 CC: One of first implementations of channel 17:40:52 CC: Demonstrates "prioritixe messages"... 17:40:59 AllanJ has joined #ua 17:41:12 CC: Makes text bold PLUS sets live region properties 17:42:31 CC: But UA can't really identify these situations 17:42:50 CC: Since it just tells the javascript to do something 17:43:05 JA: Wow we have lots of issues. 17:43:18 JA: Politeness, Timing... 17:43:30 CC: Screen reader can handle politeness negotiation 17:43:44 CC: Author proposes, Use disposes. 17:45:24 JR: Brings up issue of rude areas moving focus 17:45:47 CC: Rude regions can do it 17:46:16 CC: But doesn't really make sense 17:46:45 CC: Anything can grab user's cursor, not just live regions 17:48:04 JA: SO it's a wcag thing to say don't move focus around 17:48:24 JA: It's a uaag thing to deal with it if author does anyway 17:49:02 JA: Charles can we keep you on a "retainer"? 17:49:05 CC: Yes 17:49:16 Topic: 2. review action items 17:49:24 JA to Will forward PP's message to x-tech. 17:49:27 DONE 17:49:33 JA to Contact Charles Chen to invite him to the call. 17:49:36 DONE 17:49:40 JR to Will update wiki for 3.1 17:49:42 DONE 17:49:55 JR (3.4) rework new proposal, flesh out setting and UA behavior 17:49:58 DONE 17:50:07 PP to Proposal to combine 3.2 and 3.3 17:51:07 NOT YET 17:51:17 Action PP: Proposal to combine 3.2 and 3.3 17:51:39 Action JA: to Get thoughts together about 3.4 "All executable content" managing configuration 17:52:08 JA: Idea is that UA can choose whetehr or not to launch plugins 17:52:37 Topic: @alt and @title display as tooltip 17:53:33 JA: Tooltips are not configurable in browsers generally 17:55:29 JR: Resolution that alt and image should never be seen together works for me 17:55:54 JA: Though sometimes helpful in image maps 17:56:02 JR: THen title should used 17:56:52 KF: I haven't seen is that Web accessibility is helped by alt being seen as the tooltip 17:57:18 JA: Display of alt to everyone in IE has helped its use 17:57:37 JA: But there is a lack of configurability in browser 17:58:19 JA: So maybe UA should have control of size and display of tooltips, warnings, etc 17:59:13 JR: If 200% size slected it should apply to all. 17:59:38 Action JA: Write proposal for controlling display of tooltips 18:00:18 JR: in a UA when you zoom the font size, it should trickle to the tooltip, but doesn't 18:01:21 -KFord 18:01:23 -Charles_Chen 18:01:25 -pparente 18:01:26 -ScottH 18:01:28 -Jan_Richards 18:02:15 -Jim_Allan 18:02:15 RRSAgent, make minutes 18:02:15 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/08/02-ua-minutes.html JR 18:02:18 WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has ended 18:02:21 Attendees were Jim_Allan, KFord, Jan_Richards, Charles_Chen, ScottH, pparente 18:02:24 RRSAgent, set logs public 18:02:39 Zakim, bye 18:02:39 Zakim has left #ua 18:02:50 RRSAgent, bye 18:02:50 I see 4 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/02-ua-actions.rdf : 18:02:50 ACTION: KF to Update Guideline 2 of the wiki [1] 18:02:50 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/02-ua-irc#T16-58-45 18:02:50 ACTION: PP to Proposal to combine 3.2 and 3.3 [2] 18:02:50 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/02-ua-irc#T17-51-17 18:02:50 ACTION: JA to to Get thoughts together about 3.4 "All executable content" managing configuration [3] 18:02:50 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/02-ua-irc#T17-51-39 18:02:50 ACTION: JA to Write proposal for controlling display of tooltips [4] 18:02:50 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/02-ua-irc#T17-59-38