IRC log of rdfa on 2007-08-02

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:44:03 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #rdfa
14:44:03 [RRSAgent]
logging to
14:44:09 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #rdfa
14:44:14 [mhausenblas]
zakim, this will be SW_SWD(RDFa)
14:44:14 [Zakim]
ok, mhausenblas; I see SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM scheduled to start in 16 minutes
14:44:21 [mhausenblas]
Meeting: W3C RDF-in-XHTML TF - Telecon 2007-08-02, 15:00 UTC
14:44:28 [mhausenblas]
14:44:34 [mhausenblas]
Chair: Ben
14:44:39 [mhausenblas]
ScribeNick: mhausenblas
14:44:45 [mhausenblas]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
14:44:45 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate mhausenblas
14:44:52 [mhausenblas]
RRSAgent, make logs public
14:45:07 [ShaneM]
ShaneM has joined #rdfa
14:45:18 [mhausenblas]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
14:45:18 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate mhausenblas
14:55:26 [Simone]
Simone has joined #rdfa
14:57:06 [ShaneM]
might be a couple of minutes late on the phone
14:57:24 [mhausenblas]
ok - anyway great to have you here!
14:58:18 [msporny]
msporny has joined #rdfa
15:00:36 [RalphS]
RalphS has joined #rdfa
15:00:54 [Zakim]
SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has now started
15:01:01 [Zakim]
15:01:17 [Zakim]
15:01:19 [Zakim]
15:01:21 [Zakim]
15:01:35 [Zakim]
15:01:46 [Zakim]
15:02:19 [benadida]
benadida has joined #rdfa
15:02:41 [mhausenblas]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:02:41 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate mhausenblas
15:03:37 [RalphS]
-> previous 2007-07-26
15:03:41 [Zakim]
15:03:56 [mhausenblas]
zakim, who is here?
15:03:56 [Zakim]
On the phone I see [IPcaller], Michael_Hausenblas, ShaneM, Ralph, benadida
15:03:58 [Zakim]
On IRC I see benadida, RalphS, msporny, Simone, ShaneM, Zakim, RRSAgent, mhausenblas
15:04:51 [mhausenblas]
Zakim, IPcaller is msporny
15:04:51 [Zakim]
+msporny; got it
15:05:12 [mhausenblas]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:05:12 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate mhausenblas
15:06:07 [Zakim]
15:06:13 [Simone]
Zakim, ??P51
15:06:13 [Zakim]
I don't understand '??P51', Simone
15:06:26 [Simone]
Zakim, ??P51 is me
15:06:26 [Zakim]
+Simone; got it
15:07:03 [mhausenblas]
Ben: Did a lot last week - now TC
15:07:07 [mhausenblas]
Topic: Action Item Review
15:07:13 [mhausenblas]
15:07:29 [mhausenblas]
[NEW] ACTION: Ben writeup a summary of this discussion [recorded in]
15:07:35 [mhausenblas]
-- done
15:07:50 [benadida]
15:09:00 [mhausenblas]
[PENDING] ACTION: Ben to sum up @href/@resource everywhere proposal [recorded in]
15:09:06 [mhausenblas]
-- continue
15:09:29 [mhausenblas]
15:09:35 [mhausenblas]
[PENDING] ACTION: Ben to look into Science Commons use case [recorded in]
15:09:46 [mhausenblas]
-- continues
15:09:52 [mhausenblas]
[PENDING] ACTION: Elias to send email to list with use case from IBM [recorded in]
15:09:56 [mhausenblas]
-- continues
15:10:22 [mhausenblas]
[PENDING] ACTION: MarkB to work rdf:label back into RDFa syntax when using @content after October [recorded in]
15:10:29 [mhausenblas]
-- continues
15:11:09 [mhausenblas]
Topic: Test Cases
15:11:15 [RalphS]
scribenick: ralphs
15:11:30 [mhausenblas]
-> TC
15:12:09 [RalphS]
Michael: we've already approved 1 through 18
15:12:34 [RalphS]
15:13:08 [RalphS]
Ben: I can volunteer to look over the cases to see if we have invalidated any with our recent decisions
15:13:39 [RalphS]
Michael: any such cases are either 'on hold' or should be removed
15:14:07 [RalphS]
test case 0019
15:14:07 [RalphS]
15:14:07 [RalphS]
@about for subject
15:14:23 [RalphS]
-> test 19
15:15:03 [RalphS]
proposed to accept 19
15:15:26 [RalphS]
resolved to accept 19
15:15:42 [RalphS]
test case 0020 Inheriting @about for subject
15:15:55 [RalphS]
-> test 20
15:16:00 [RalphS]
Michael: two nested spans
15:16:31 [RalphS]
resolved to accept 20
15:16:57 [RalphS]
test case 0021 Subject inheritance with no @about
15:17:10 [RalphS]
-> test 21
15:17:26 [RalphS]
Michael: the semantics now look strange to me
15:18:12 [RalphS]
Ben: looks good to me; creator is specified in the correct direction
15:18:22 [RalphS]
resolved to accept 21
15:18:37 [RalphS]
test case 0022 meta with parent @id
15:18:43 [RalphS]
-> test 22
15:19:00 [RalphS]
Ben: given that we're not including META in body in XHTML 1, we should reject this test
15:19:07 [RalphS]
resolved to reject 22
15:19:23 [RalphS]
test case 0023 Ignore @id in non-parent ancestor
15:19:31 [RalphS]
-> test 23
15:19:47 [RalphS]
Michael: this test now tests another useful feature
15:20:00 [RalphS]
... we could rename it to 'test that @id does not generate subjects'
15:20:57 [RalphS]
Ben: yes, this recent decision does require some implementation changes. I have code for those edge cases, though we've not seen those edge cases in practice
15:21:10 [RalphS]
resolved to accept 23 with a renaming
15:23:23 [benadida]
<div id="photo1"> <span class="attribution-line">this photo was taken by <span property="dc:creator">Mark Birbeck</span> </span> </div>
15:24:29 [RalphS]
Ben: formerly this test demonstrated that 'photo1' was not inherited. Now the same test shows that @id never triggers a triple
15:25:06 [RalphS]
test case 0024 Ignore @id for non-meta and non-link
15:25:22 [RalphS]
Michael: this test should be rejected as redundant
15:25:34 [RalphS]
Ben: yes, effectively merged with test 23
15:25:49 [RalphS]
resolved to merge 24 into 23
15:26:07 [RalphS]
Michael: I'd prefer to just reject rather than merge
15:26:40 [RalphS]
resolved to drop 24; it does not test anything new
15:26:52 [RalphS]
test case 0025 @id for object
15:27:06 [RalphS]
-> test 25
15:27:07 [benadida]
<span rel="dc:creator" id="me"> <span property="foaf:name">Ben Adida</span>, <a rel="foaf:mbox" href=""></a>. </span>
15:27:16 [benadida]
<span rel="dc:creator" id="me">
15:27:21 [RalphS]
Ben: this test is "interestingly" controversial
15:27:49 [benadida]
<> dc:creator <#me> .
15:27:57 [RalphS]
... I interpreted this as creating striping (or 'chaining' as Mark has called it)
15:28:09 [RalphS]
... that's what test 25 was meant to test
15:28:33 [RalphS]
... one of our non-binding resolutions from last week was to not consider @id
15:28:45 [RalphS]
... so with that in mind, we should reject this test
15:28:55 [mhausenblas]
Glossary in ->
15:29:08 [RalphS]
Michael: I'm trying to put together a glossary in the umbrella document
15:29:13 [mhausenblas]
15:29:21 [RalphS]
... I found the striping idea very confusing
15:29:48 [RalphS]
... I recommend that the term 'striping' be better-defined or changed to 'chaining'
15:30:21 [RalphS]
Ben: I'm happy to change the word to 'chaining' instead
15:31:39 [RalphS]
Ben: test 25 was my old idea of how the markup should work, now we're using @href instead
15:31:51 [RalphS]
Michael: rather than drop the test, let's rewrite it to use @href
15:32:46 [RalphS]
Shane: this is a pretty arcane level of RDF
15:33:12 [RalphS]
Ben: last week's discussion was about the use of @id to do chaining. Mark was opposed to that
15:33:21 [RalphS]
Shane: I don't much care about this notion of chaining
15:33:58 [RalphS]
Ben: the intent is to be able to describe intermediate resources
15:34:21 [RalphS]
Shane: that description makes a lot more sense
15:34:59 [RalphS]
Ben: the concept of 'chaining' is about defining an intermediate resource
15:35:07 [RalphS]
... e.g. a music album with a musician who has a name
15:35:20 [RalphS]
... the question is what XML attribute triggers this object/subject switch
15:36:36 [RalphS]
... so test 25 should confirm our decision on which attribute (now @resource) triggers the object/subject switch
15:37:15 [RalphS]
... foaf:mbox could be dropped from this test to simplify it as a chaining test
15:37:41 [RalphS]
... the foaf:mbox adds a second level of chaining
15:37:48 [mhausenblas]
This paper was written by
15:37:56 [mhausenblas]
<span rel="dc:creator" @resource="me">
15:38:02 [mhausenblas]
<span property="foaf:name">Ben Adida</span>.
15:38:07 [mhausenblas]
15:38:10 [benadida]
15:38:29 [RalphS]
Ben: yes, that's the simple example
15:38:53 [RalphS]
resolved to accept test 25, rewritten, and renamed to 'simple chaining example'
15:38:59 [benadida]
<span rel="dc:creator">
15:39:39 [RalphS]
Ben: add ^ to the test for a slightly bigger example
15:40:15 [RalphS]
Michael: I'd rather create a new, separate test -- call it test 33
15:40:26 [RalphS]
Ben: 33 should use @rel without @resource
15:40:53 [mhausenblas]
... and producing the same SPARQL ask as TC25
15:41:13 [mhausenblas]
... with a bNode instead of #me
15:42:15 [Simone]
Simone: phone is bad :( so TC are ok for me
15:42:32 [RalphS]
test case 0026 @content
15:42:39 [RalphS]
-> test 26
15:42:55 [RalphS]
Michael: but the span has no content
15:43:01 [RalphS]
Ben: so it's a bnode
15:43:14 [benadida]
<span about="" property="dc:creator" content="Mark Birbeck"> </span>
15:43:35 [RalphS]
s/bnode/empty literal/
15:44:18 [mhausenblas]
<span about="" property="dc:creator" content="Mark Birbeck" />
15:45:21 [RalphS]
Michael: from an XML viewpoint, 26 and 27 as written are not very different
15:45:59 [RalphS]
Ben: right, we're not testing XML here. It would be OK to change 26 to be a self-closed element
15:46:17 [RalphS]
Shane: I think they're both interesting test cases; they'd really test the DOM parser
15:47:00 [RalphS]
... but I don't think self-closing SPANs work, say, in Internet Explorer
15:47:35 [RalphS]
Ben: 26 is worthwhile as a self-closed element and if IE has trouble, that's good to know
15:47:47 [RalphS]
resolved to accept 26, re-written as a self-closed element
15:48:00 [RalphS]
ACTION: Michael test how <SPAN /> behaves in Internet Explorer
15:48:41 [RalphS]
Ben: test 27 is the same as 26 but has content in the span
15:48:43 [RalphS]
resolved to accept 27
15:48:56 [RalphS]
test case 0028 @xml:lang and @datatype
15:49:04 [RalphS]
-> test 28
15:49:17 [RalphS]
Ben: this test the affect of xml:lang on the triple
15:50:11 [RalphS]
15:50:39 [RalphS]
Ben: test 28 looks OK to me
15:50:54 [benadida]
ACTION: Ben to work through xml:lang issue with Ivan
15:51:02 [mhausenblas]
15:51:45 [RalphS]
Ben: I need to followup with Ivan on the behavior of xml:lang
15:51:55 [RalphS]
Michael: I think Karl's message 0198 may resolve this
15:52:07 [RalphS]
Ben: ok, but I want the Task Force to review it
15:52:38 [benadida]
ACTION: Michael to email individual emails to resolve TCs 29-33 (TC 28 to be resolved post xml:lang discussion)
15:53:00 [RalphS]
scribenick: mhausenblas
15:53:05 [mhausenblas]
Topic: Documents
15:53:32 [mhausenblas]
Ben: We agreed last time to use XHTML XXX
15:54:15 [mhausenblas]
Shane: Currently no contact to Steven
15:54:22 [mhausenblas]
... he has the edit token
15:54:29 [mhausenblas]
[Steven is on holiday]
15:55:01 [mhausenblas]
Ben: We have an array of changes (chaining, no @id, etc.)
15:55:56 [mhausenblas]
Ralph: He did no significant changes; should be back on 13 Aug
15:56:05 [mhausenblas]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:56:05 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate mhausenblas
15:56:26 [mhausenblas]
RRSAgent, make logs public
15:56:39 [mhausenblas]
Ralph: Does Steven work offline?
15:57:02 [benadida]
15:57:30 [mhausenblas]
Shane: Give me a correct version, I'll take care for the conversion
15:57:39 [mhausenblas]
... may take me some couple of an hour
15:58:08 [mhausenblas]
Ben: Not time-frozen version, but the actual one
15:58:54 [mhausenblas]
15:59:45 [mhausenblas]
Ben: Pls keep me in the loop
16:00:00 [mhausenblas]
... as Mark and Steven are on holiday
16:00:20 [mhausenblas]
... we might need a separate chat
16:00:30 [RalphS]
Shane: the XHTML2 WG has a separate content management system not on
16:00:41 [mhausenblas]
Shane: There is a separate access control/system we work on
16:00:45 [RalphS]
Ralph: that's too bad, but if the work is getting done then ok
16:01:13 [mhausenblas]
Ben: Have to look at the Primer
16:01:33 [mhausenblas]
... and update it according to the newest development
16:01:45 [mhausenblas]
Topic: Implementations
16:02:00 [RalphS]
Shane: the intention is still to keep the syntax document as a stand-alone document
16:02:15 [mhausenblas]
16:03:18 [benadida]
ACTION: Ben to recontact implementors Elias, MarkB and post their implementations to
16:03:24 [ShaneM]
question: does syntax document become rec-track? I can't remember
16:03:33 [benadida]
s/, MarkB/, MarkB, triplr/
16:03:58 [ShaneM]
Ben says yes.
16:04:36 [ShaneM]
Note that there is already a sepaarate xhtml-rdfa document that does a similar thing, but without all the syntax parsing rules.
16:04:43 [ShaneM]
16:04:50 [mhausenblas]
Ralph: TomB had the question regarding reck-track
16:05:09 [mhausenblas]
16:05:22 [Simone]
Simone: I'm testing Js implementation and works great, for XSL implementation I've load a parser with Fabien's XSL but my Sablotron has problem, so also Monkey RDFa (a PHP parser with n3 output) works good
16:07:02 [Simone]
Simone: So on W3C XSL servlet is ok, we may ask to get an RDFa extractor service?
16:07:40 [RalphS]
Michael: will we ever declare the test cases frozen?
16:08:51 [RalphS]
Ralph: as we're not doing conformance test, I suggest we leave ourselves the option to add a test whenever we reach a decision about an open question
16:10:04 [RalphS]
Ben: it would be nice to be able to add a test without having to take [the test case] document back to Last Call
16:10:31 [mhausenblas]
RRSAgent, make logs public
16:10:39 [RalphS]
... for now, it's good that our strategy be to act as if the test cases were Rec Track
16:11:26 [Zakim]
16:11:30 [RalphS]
Ben: I'll be running in-between meetings next week, may have difficulty making a call
16:11:42 [Zakim]
16:11:54 [benadida]
zakim, who is on the call?
16:11:54 [Zakim]
On the phone I see msporny, Ralph, benadida, Simone
16:12:02 [mhausenblas]
RRSAgent, make logs public
16:12:44 [mhausenblas]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:12:44 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate mhausenblas
16:13:14 [Zakim]
16:14:43 [RalphS]
zakim, list participants
16:14:43 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been Michael_Hausenblas, ShaneM, Ralph, benadida, msporny, Simone
16:15:12 [mhausenblas]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:15:12 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate mhausenblas
16:16:03 [mhausenblas]
16:26:22 [Zakim]
16:26:25 [Zakim]
16:26:27 [benadida]
benadida has left #rdfa
16:26:27 [Zakim]
16:26:29 [Zakim]
SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has ended
16:26:30 [Zakim]
Attendees were Michael_Hausenblas, ShaneM, Ralph, benadida, msporny, Simone
16:27:46 [RalphS]
zakim, bye
16:27:46 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #rdfa
16:27:58 [ShaneM]
ShaneM has left #rdfa
17:04:41 [RalphS]
rrsagent, bye
17:04:41 [RRSAgent]
I see 4 open action items saved in :
17:04:41 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Michael test how <SPAN /> behaves in Internet Explorer [1]
17:04:41 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
17:04:41 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Ben to work through xml:lang issue with Ivan [2]
17:04:41 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
17:04:41 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Michael to email individual emails to resolve TCs 29-33 (TC 28 to be resolved post xml:lang discussion) [3]
17:04:41 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
17:04:41 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Ben to recontact implementors Elias, MarkB and post their implementations to [4]
17:04:41 [RRSAgent]
recorded in