IRC log of rdfa on 2007-08-02

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:44:03 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #rdfa
14:44:03 [RRSAgent]: logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/08/02-rdfa-irc
14:44:09 [Zakim]: Zakim has joined #rdfa
14:44:14 [mhausenblas]: zakim, this will be SW_SWD(RDFa)
14:44:14 [Zakim]: ok, mhausenblas; I see SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM scheduled to start in 16 minutes
14:44:21 [mhausenblas]: Meeting: W3C RDF-in-XHTML TF - Telecon 2007-08-02, 15:00 UTC
14:44:28 [mhausenblas]: Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Aug/0004.html
14:44:34 [mhausenblas]: Chair: Ben
14:44:39 [mhausenblas]: ScribeNick: mhausenblas
14:44:45 [mhausenblas]: RRSAgent, draft minutes
14:44:45 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/08/02-rdfa-minutes.html mhausenblas
14:44:52 [mhausenblas]: RRSAgent, make logs public
14:45:07 [ShaneM]: ShaneM has joined #rdfa
14:45:18 [mhausenblas]: RRSAgent, draft minutes
14:45:18 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/08/02-rdfa-minutes.html mhausenblas
14:55:26 [Simone]: Simone has joined #rdfa
14:57:06 [ShaneM]: might be a couple of minutes late on the phone
14:57:24 [mhausenblas]: ok - anyway great to have you here!
14:58:18 [msporny]: msporny has joined #rdfa
15:00:36 [RalphS]: RalphS has joined #rdfa
15:00:54 [Zakim]: SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has now started
15:01:01 [Zakim]: +[IPcaller]
15:01:17 [Zakim]: +Michael_Hausenblas
15:01:19 [Zakim]: -[IPcaller]
15:01:21 [Zakim]: +[IPcaller]
15:01:35 [Zakim]: +ShaneM
15:01:46 [Zakim]: +Ralph
15:02:19 [benadida]: benadida has joined #rdfa
15:02:41 [mhausenblas]: RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:02:41 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/08/02-rdfa-minutes.html mhausenblas
15:03:37 [RalphS]: -> http://www.w3.org/2007/07/26-rdfa-minutes.html previous 2007-07-26
15:03:41 [Zakim]: +benadida
15:03:56 [mhausenblas]: zakim, who is here?
15:03:56 [Zakim]: On the phone I see [IPcaller], Michael_Hausenblas, ShaneM, Ralph, benadida
15:03:58 [Zakim]: On IRC I see benadida, RalphS, msporny, Simone, ShaneM, Zakim, RRSAgent, mhausenblas
15:04:51 [mhausenblas]: Zakim, IPcaller is msporny
15:04:51 [Zakim]: +msporny; got it
15:05:12 [mhausenblas]: RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:05:12 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/08/02-rdfa-minutes.html mhausenblas
15:06:07 [Zakim]: +??P51
15:06:13 [Simone]: Zakim, ??P51
15:06:13 [Zakim]: I don't understand '??P51', Simone
15:06:26 [Simone]: Zakim, ??P51 is me
15:06:26 [Zakim]: +Simone; got it
15:07:03 [mhausenblas]: Ben: Did a lot last week - now TC
15:07:07 [mhausenblas]: Topic: Action Item Review
15:07:13 [mhausenblas]: -> http://www.w3.org/2007/07/26-rdfa-minutes.html#ActionSummary
15:07:29 [mhausenblas]: [NEW] ACTION: Ben writeup a summary of this discussion [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action01]
15:07:35 [mhausenblas]: -- done
15:07:50 [benadida]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Jul/0209.html
15:09:00 [mhausenblas]: [PENDING] ACTION: Ben to sum up @href/@resource everywhere proposal [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/12-rdfa-minutes.html#action10]
15:09:06 [mhausenblas]: -- continue
15:09:29 [mhausenblas]: s/continue/continues
15:09:35 [mhausenblas]: [PENDING] ACTION: Ben to look into Science Commons use case [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/11-htmltf-minutes.html#action04]
15:09:46 [mhausenblas]: -- continues
15:09:52 [mhausenblas]: [PENDING] ACTION: Elias to send email to list with use case from IBM [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action10]
15:09:56 [mhausenblas]: -- continues
15:10:22 [mhausenblas]: [PENDING] ACTION: MarkB to work rdf:label back into RDFa syntax when using @content after October [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/19-rdfa-minutes.html#action08]
15:10:29 [mhausenblas]: -- continues
15:11:09 [mhausenblas]: Topic: Test Cases
15:11:15 [RalphS]: scribenick: ralphs
15:11:30 [mhausenblas]: -> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/RDFaTC TC
15:12:09 [RalphS]: Michael: we've already approved 1 through 18
15:12:34 [RalphS]: s/approved/reviewed/
15:13:08 [RalphS]: Ben: I can volunteer to look over the cases to see if we have invalidated any with our recent decisions
15:13:39 [RalphS]: Michael: any such cases are either 'on hold' or should be removed
15:14:07 [RalphS]: test case 0019
15:14:07 [RalphS]
15:14:07 [RalphS]: @about for subject
15:14:23 [RalphS]: -> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/testsuite/xhtml1-testcases/Test0019 test 19
15:15:03 [RalphS]: proposed to accept 19
15:15:26 [RalphS]: resolved to accept 19
15:15:42 [RalphS]: test case 0020 Inheriting @about for subject
15:15:55 [RalphS]: -> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/testsuite/xhtml1-testcases/Test0020 test 20
15:16:00 [RalphS]: Michael: two nested spans
15:16:31 [RalphS]: resolved to accept 20
15:16:57 [RalphS]: test case 0021 Subject inheritance with no @about
15:17:10 [RalphS]: -> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/testsuite/xhtml1-testcases/Test0021 test 21
15:17:26 [RalphS]: Michael: the semantics now look strange to me
15:18:12 [RalphS]: Ben: looks good to me; creator is specified in the correct direction
15:18:22 [RalphS]: resolved to accept 21
15:18:37 [RalphS]: test case 0022 meta with parent @id
15:18:43 [RalphS]: -> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/testsuite/xhtml1-testcases/Test0022 test 22
15:19:00 [RalphS]: Ben: given that we're not including META in body in XHTML 1, we should reject this test
15:19:07 [RalphS]: resolved to reject 22
15:19:23 [RalphS]: test case 0023 Ignore @id in non-parent ancestor
15:19:31 [RalphS]: -> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/testsuite/xhtml1-testcases/Test0023 test 23
15:19:47 [RalphS]: Michael: this test now tests another useful feature
15:20:00 [RalphS]: ... we could rename it to 'test that @id does not generate subjects'
15:20:57 [RalphS]: Ben: yes, this recent decision does require some implementation changes. I have code for those edge cases, though we've not seen those edge cases in practice
15:21:10 [RalphS]: resolved to accept 23 with a renaming
15:23:23 [benadida]: <div id="photo1"> this photo was taken by Mark Birbeck </div>
15:24:29 [RalphS]: Ben: formerly this test demonstrated that 'photo1' was not inherited. Now the same test shows that @id never triggers a triple
15:25:06 [RalphS]: test case 0024 Ignore @id for non-meta and non-link
15:25:22 [RalphS]: Michael: this test should be rejected as redundant
15:25:34 [RalphS]: Ben: yes, effectively merged with test 23
15:25:49 [RalphS]: resolved to merge 24 into 23
15:26:07 [RalphS]: Michael: I'd prefer to just reject rather than merge
15:26:40 [RalphS]: resolved to drop 24; it does not test anything new
15:26:52 [RalphS]: test case 0025 @id for object
15:27:06 [RalphS]: -> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/testsuite/xhtml1-testcases/Test0025 test 25
15:27:07 [benadida]: Ben Adida, <a rel="foaf:mbox" href="mailto:ben@adida.net">ben@adida.net</a>.
15:27:16 [benadida]:
15:27:21 [RalphS]: Ben: this test is "interestingly" controversial
15:27:49 [benadida]: <> dc:creator <#me> .
15:27:57 [RalphS]: ... I interpreted this as creating striping (or 'chaining' as Mark has called it)
15:28:09 [RalphS]: ... that's what test 25 was meant to test
15:28:33 [RalphS]: ... one of our non-binding resolutions from last week was to not consider @id
15:28:45 [RalphS]: ... so with that in mind, we should reject this test
15:28:55 [mhausenblas]: Glossary in -> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/
15:29:08 [RalphS]: Michael: I'm trying to put together a glossary in the umbrella document
15:29:13 [mhausenblas]: http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-syntax-grammar/
15:29:21 [RalphS]: ... I found the striping idea very confusing
15:29:48 [RalphS]: ... I recommend that the term 'striping' be better-defined or changed to 'chaining'
15:30:21 [RalphS]: Ben: I'm happy to change the word to 'chaining' instead
15:31:39 [RalphS]: Ben: test 25 was my old idea of how the markup should work, now we're using @href instead
15:31:51 [RalphS]: Michael: rather than drop the test, let's rewrite it to use @href
15:32:46 [RalphS]: Shane: this is a pretty arcane level of RDF
15:33:12 [RalphS]: Ben: last week's discussion was about the use of @id to do chaining. Mark was opposed to that
15:33:21 [RalphS]: Shane: I don't much care about this notion of chaining
15:33:58 [RalphS]: Ben: the intent is to be able to describe intermediate resources
15:34:21 [RalphS]: Shane: that description makes a lot more sense
15:34:59 [RalphS]: Ben: the concept of 'chaining' is about defining an intermediate resource
15:35:07 [RalphS]: ... e.g. a music album with a musician who has a name
15:35:20 [RalphS]: ... the question is what XML attribute triggers this object/subject switch
15:36:36 [RalphS]: ... so test 25 should confirm our decision on which attribute (now @resource) triggers the object/subject switch
15:37:15 [RalphS]: ... foaf:mbox could be dropped from this test to simplify it as a chaining test
15:37:41 [RalphS]: ... the foaf:mbox adds a second level of chaining
15:37:48 [mhausenblas]: This paper was written by
15:37:56 [mhausenblas]:
15:38:02 [mhausenblas]: Ben Adida.
15:38:07 [mhausenblas]:
15:38:10 [benadida]: s/@resource="me"/resource="#me"/
15:38:29 [RalphS]: Ben: yes, that's the simple example
15:38:53 [RalphS]: resolved to accept test 25, rewritten, and renamed to 'simple chaining example'
15:38:59 [benadida]:
15:39:39 [RalphS]: Ben: add ^ to the test for a slightly bigger example
15:40:15 [RalphS]: Michael: I'd rather create a new, separate test -- call it test 33
15:40:26 [RalphS]: Ben: 33 should use @rel without @resource
15:40:53 [mhausenblas]: ... and producing the same SPARQL ask as TC25
15:41:13 [mhausenblas]: ... with a bNode instead of #me
15:42:15 [Simone]: Simone: phone is bad :( so TC are ok for me
15:42:32 [RalphS]: test case 0026 @content
15:42:39 [RalphS]: -> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/testsuite/xhtml1-testcases/Test0026 test 26
15:42:55 [RalphS]: Michael: but the span has no content
15:43:01 [RalphS]: Ben: so it's a bnode
15:43:14 [benadida]:
15:43:35 [RalphS]: s/bnode/empty literal/
15:44:18 [mhausenblas]:
15:45:21 [RalphS]: Michael: from an XML viewpoint, 26 and 27 as written are not very different
15:45:59 [RalphS]: Ben: right, we're not testing XML here. It would be OK to change 26 to be a self-closed element
15:46:17 [RalphS]: Shane: I think they're both interesting test cases; they'd really test the DOM parser
15:47:00 [RalphS]: ... but I don't think self-closing SPANs work, say, in Internet Explorer
15:47:35 [RalphS]: Ben: 26 is worthwhile as a self-closed element and if IE has trouble, that's good to know
15:47:47 [RalphS]: resolved to accept 26, re-written as a self-closed element
15:48:00 [RalphS]: ACTION: Michael test how behaves in Internet Explorer
15:48:41 [RalphS]: Ben: test 27 is the same as 26 but has content in the span
15:48:43 [RalphS]: resolved to accept 27
15:48:56 [RalphS]: test case 0028 @xml:lang and @datatype
15:49:04 [RalphS]: -> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/testsuite/xhtml1-testcases/Test0028 test 28
15:49:17 [RalphS]: Ben: this test the affect of xml:lang on the triple
15:50:11 [RalphS]: s/test/tests/
15:50:39 [RalphS]: Ben: test 28 looks OK to me
15:50:54 [benadida]: ACTION: Ben to work through xml:lang issue with Ivan
15:51:02 [mhausenblas]: -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Jul/0198.html
15:51:45 [RalphS]: Ben: I need to followup with Ivan on the behavior of xml:lang
15:51:55 [RalphS]: Michael: I think Karl's message 0198 may resolve this
15:52:07 [RalphS]: Ben: ok, but I want the Task Force to review it
15:52:38 [benadida]: ACTION: Michael to email individual emails to resolve TCs 29-33 (TC 28 to be resolved post xml:lang discussion)
15:53:00 [RalphS]: scribenick: mhausenblas
15:53:05 [mhausenblas]: Topic: Documents
15:53:32 [mhausenblas]: Ben: We agreed last time to use XHTML XXX
15:54:15 [mhausenblas]: Shane: Currently no contact to Steven
15:54:22 [mhausenblas]: ... he has the edit token
15:54:29 [mhausenblas]: [Steven is on holiday]
15:55:01 [mhausenblas]: Ben: We have an array of changes (chaining, no @id, etc.)
15:55:56 [mhausenblas]: Ralph: He did no significant changes; should be back on 13 Aug
15:56:05 [mhausenblas]: RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:56:05 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/08/02-rdfa-minutes.html mhausenblas
15:56:26 [mhausenblas]: RRSAgent, make logs public
15:56:39 [mhausenblas]: Ralph: Does Steven work offline?
15:57:02 [benadida]: http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/syntax/
15:57:30 [mhausenblas]: Shane: Give me a correct version, I'll take care for the conversion
15:57:39 [mhausenblas]: ... may take me some couple of an hour
15:58:08 [mhausenblas]: Ben: Not time-frozen version, but the actual one
15:58:54 [mhausenblas]: -> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/syntax/Overview.xml
15:59:45 [mhausenblas]: Ben: Pls keep me in the loop
16:00:00 [mhausenblas]: ... as Mark and Steven are on holiday
16:00:20 [mhausenblas]: ... we might need a separate chat
16:00:30 [RalphS]: Shane: the XHTML2 WG has a separate content management system not on w3.org
16:00:41 [mhausenblas]: Shane: There is a separate access control/system we work on
16:00:45 [RalphS]: Ralph: that's too bad, but if the work is getting done then ok
16:01:13 [mhausenblas]: Ben: Have to look at the Primer
16:01:33 [mhausenblas]: ... and update it according to the newest development
16:01:45 [mhausenblas]: Topic: Implementations
16:02:00 [RalphS]: Shane: the intention is still to keep the syntax document as a stand-alone document
16:02:15 [mhausenblas]: -> http://esw.w3.org/topic/RDFa#Implementations
16:03:18 [benadida]: ACTION: Ben to recontact implementors Elias, MarkB and post their implementations to http://esw.w3.org/topic/RDFa#Implementations
16:03:24 [ShaneM]: question: does syntax document become rec-track? I can't remember
16:03:33 [benadida]: s/, MarkB/, MarkB, triplr/
16:03:58 [ShaneM]: Ben says yes.
16:04:36 [ShaneM]: Note that there is already a sepaarate xhtml-rdfa document that does a similar thing, but without all the syntax parsing rules.
16:04:43 [ShaneM]: s/sepaarate/separate/
16:04:50 [mhausenblas]: Ralph: TomB had the question regarding reck-track
16:05:09 [mhausenblas]: s/sepaarate/separate
16:05:22 [Simone]: Simone: I'm testing Js implementation and works great, for XSL implementation I've load a parser with Fabien's XSL but my Sablotron has problem, so also Monkey RDFa (a PHP parser with n3 output) works good
16:07:02 [Simone]: Simone: So on W3C XSL servlet is ok, we may ask to get an RDFa extractor service?
16:07:40 [RalphS]: Michael: will we ever declare the test cases frozen?
16:08:51 [RalphS]: Ralph: as we're not doing conformance test, I suggest we leave ourselves the option to add a test whenever we reach a decision about an open question
16:10:04 [RalphS]: Ben: it would be nice to be able to add a test without having to take [the test case] document back to Last Call
16:10:31 [mhausenblas]: RRSAgent, make logs public
16:10:39 [RalphS]: ... for now, it's good that our strategy be to act as if the test cases were Rec Track
16:11:26 [Zakim]: -ShaneM
16:11:30 [RalphS]: Ben: I'll be running in-between meetings next week, may have difficulty making a call
16:11:42 [Zakim]: -Michael_Hausenblas
16:11:54 [benadida]: zakim, who is on the call?
16:11:54 [Zakim]: On the phone I see msporny, Ralph, benadida, Simone
16:12:02 [mhausenblas]: RRSAgent, make logs public
16:12:44 [mhausenblas]: RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:12:44 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/08/02-rdfa-minutes.html mhausenblas
16:13:14 [Zakim]: -Simone
16:14:43 [RalphS]: zakim, list participants
16:14:43 [Zakim]: As of this point the attendees have been Michael_Hausenblas, ShaneM, Ralph, benadida, msporny, Simone
16:15:12 [mhausenblas]: RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:15:12 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/08/02-rdfa-minutes.html mhausenblas
16:16:03 [mhausenblas]: bye
16:26:22 [Zakim]: -Ralph
16:26:25 [Zakim]: -benadida
16:26:27 [benadida]: benadida has left #rdfa
16:26:27 [Zakim]: -msporny
16:26:29 [Zakim]: SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has ended
16:26:30 [Zakim]: Attendees were Michael_Hausenblas, ShaneM, Ralph, benadida, msporny, Simone
16:27:46 [RalphS]: zakim, bye
16:27:46 [Zakim]: Zakim has left #rdfa
16:27:58 [ShaneM]: ShaneM has left #rdfa
17:04:41 [RalphS]: rrsagent, bye
17:04:41 [RRSAgent]: I see 4 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/02-rdfa-actions.rdf :
17:04:41 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: Michael test how behaves in Internet Explorer [1]
17:04:41 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/02-rdfa-irc#T15-48-00
17:04:41 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: Ben to work through xml:lang issue with Ivan [2]
17:04:41 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/02-rdfa-irc#T15-50-54
17:04:41 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: Michael to email individual emails to resolve TCs 29-33 (TC 28 to be resolved post xml:lang discussion) [3]
17:04:41 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/02-rdfa-irc#T15-52-38
17:04:41 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: Ben to recontact implementors Elias, MarkB and post their implementations to http://esw.w3.org/topic/RDFa#Implementations [4]
17:04:41 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/02-rdfa-irc#T16-03-18