14:53:41 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdfa
14:53:41 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/07/26-rdfa-irc
14:53:46 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #rdfa
14:53:50 <RalphS> zakim, this will be rdfa
14:53:50 <Zakim> ok, RalphS; I see SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM scheduled to start in 7 minutes
15:03:29 <markbirbeck> it will be a low turnout today!!
15:03:36 <markbirbeck> zakim, code?
15:03:36 <Zakim> the conference code is 7332 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), markbirbeck
15:04:15 <benadida> benadida has joined #rdfa
15:04:22 <Zakim> SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has now started
15:04:29 <Zakim> + +1.617.395.aaaa
15:04:37 <benadida> zakim, I am aaaa
15:04:37 <Zakim> +benadida; got it
15:04:39 <Zakim> +Ralph
15:04:43 <RalphS> Meeting: RDFa
15:05:47 <RalphS> -> http://www.w3.org/2007/07/19-rdfa-minutes previous 2007-07-19
15:05:56 <RalphS> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Jul/0202.html
15:08:48 <Zakim> +??P0
15:08:53 <markbirbeck> zakim, i am ?
15:08:53 <Zakim> +markbirbeck; got it
15:18:06 <Zakim> -markbirbeck
15:18:28 <markbirbeck> dropped for some reason
15:18:40 <markbirbeck> dialling back
15:19:55 <Zakim> +??P0
15:20:00 <markbirbeck> zakim, i am ?
15:20:00 <Zakim> +markbirbeck; got it
15:30:03 <benadida> scribe: Ben
15:30:10 <benadida> scribenick: benadida
15:30:39 <benadida> none of these are resolutions, but we have agreement that we move forward with implementations and test cases in order to resolve the remaining issues.
15:30:53 <benadida> for now, we'll go with @instanceof
15:31:55 <benadida> <span resource="#foo">
15:31:57 <benadida> ...
15:31:59 <benadida> </span>
15:34:02 <benadida> we will try out striping where @resource, @href, and the bnode on a @rel or @rev becomes the subject of contained elements
15:34:34 <markbirbeck> for the purposes of explaining this to 'novices', we used to call this 'chaining'.
15:34:34 <benadida> <div id="foo" instanceof="foaf:Person">
15:34:48 <markbirbeck> (Because it felt less RDF-like.)
15:34:59 <benadida> <#foo> rdf:type foaf:Person .
15:35:59 <benadida> <div id="foo" rel="p" resource="o">
15:36:27 <markbirbeck> <a rel="license" href="http://cc....">license</a>
15:37:08 <RalphS> Mark: we're leveraging this <a href=...> example
15:37:18 <markbirbeck> <a id="x" rel="license" href="http://cc....">license</a>
15:37:26 <markbirbeck> Don't want that to change the subject of the triple.
15:37:40 <RalphS> Ben: right, adding @id to A didn't change the interpretation
15:38:20 <RalphS> ... the only time @id would matter is when neither @href or @resource appear in the element
15:38:22 <benadida> <div rel="foo:bar">
15:38:59 <benadida> <div id="foo">
15:39:01 <RalphS> ... without @href or @resource, @id names the bnode subject [of triples from child elements]
15:39:04 <benadida> <link rel="foo:bar" href="">
15:39:05 <benadida> </div>
15:39:32 <RalphS> Mark: current syntax draft has mostly removed references to @id and the remaining reference is mostly wrong
15:40:36 <RalphS> Ben: @id was used before, as in the <div id='foo'> case, to give the name '#foo' to the subject
15:40:48 <RalphS> ... I may be misremembering, though
15:41:00 <RalphS> Mark: but there was a reason we removed it
15:42:05 <RalphS> Ralph: we had a long discussion of the potential confusion between the name of an HTML markup fragment and the name of some real-world resource
15:42:40 <RalphS> Ben: @rel and @rev cause chaining.  @instanceof may also cause chaining.
15:44:49 <RalphS> Mark @instanceof is special because it's choosing a different subject from <div id=>
15:46:27 <kwijibo> hi - there's a typo on http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/syntax/#o266637520
15:47:22 <kwijibo> that section keeps referring to subject resolution section 4.3 - which is the object resolution section
15:48:38 <RalphS> hi, kwijibo -- we're in a telecon at the moment, so a quick reply to you here might not appear
15:48:57 <kwijibo> np - just thought I'd mention it
15:51:08 <markbirbeck> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2004/rdf-a.html
15:53:08 <RalphS> Mark: I think it is incorrect to use @id to set the subject of child statement is wrong in all contexts
15:56:05 <RalphS> Ben: my understanding when working on http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/syntax/ was that we were moving away from @xml:id and moving to @id
15:56:43 <benadida> <div id="foo" instanceof="foo:Bar">
15:57:06 <benadida> <#foo> rdf:type foo:Bar .
15:57:08 <RalphS> Ben: is #foo the subject of a triple?
15:59:15 <benadida> <div about="#bar" rel="s" id="foo" instanceof="t">
15:59:30 <benadida> <#bar> s ? .
15:59:42 <benadida> ? rdf:type t .
15:59:54 <benadida> ? = _:div0
15:59:57 <benadida> ? = "#foo"
16:00:04 <RalphS> Ben: I think we agree that the object has rdf:type t.
16:00:04 <benadida> which one is it?
16:02:02 <markbirbeck> I agree that Ben has captured this correctly, and I believe that the subject of 'chained' statements should be a bnode.
16:02:29 <markbirbeck> <#bar> s [ rdf:type t ] .
16:02:43 <benadida> I think it should be:
16:02:48 <benadida> <#bar> s <#foo> .
16:02:52 <benadida> <#foo> rdf:type t .
16:03:15 <RalphS> Ralph: I never expected @id to behave the way Ben just wrote
16:04:42 <markbirbeck> (In the last draft that myself and Steven did, we had @nodeID to achive this. :)
16:04:53 <markbirbeck> s/achive/achieve/
16:05:03 <markbirbeck> No-one liked it... ;)
16:05:19 <benadida> <div about="s" rel="p" resource="o">
16:05:25 <benadida> <span property="foo:bar">Foo!</span>
16:05:26 <benadida> </div>
16:05:37 <benadida> s p o .
16:05:56 <benadida> o foo:bar "Foo!" .
16:07:19 <markbirbeck> It's not that I saw utility in a recent email...I'm seeing that we might be able to *resurrect* this old technique.
16:08:11 <markbirbeck> I think the reason is that if we put link and meta inside the div, we wanted it to refer to @about.
16:08:18 <markbirbeck> It used to be a shorthand for:
16:08:19 <RalphS> Ben: my reasoning was that without without the @resource, we agreed that the object of @rel='p' is a bnode and that bnode is the subject of the child statements
16:08:29 <RalphS> ... so with @resource, we just give the bnode a name
16:09:02 <markbirbeck> <div about="s" foo:bar="Foo!" .... 
16:09:40 <markbirbeck> <meta property="foo:bar">Foo!</meta>
16:11:19 <RalphS> [I've searched http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/syntax/ for examples of @id and @rel on the same element and the only one I find also has @about which clearly seems to me to support Mark's interpretation]
16:12:51 <RalphS> Mark: some of the [shorthand] features included in old proposals have been dropped, I was wondering if we might eventually want to bring some of them back
16:13:25 <RalphS> Ben: I'm seeing more deployed examples that rely on bnode features and those should keep the interpretation if @href is added
16:13:46 <markbirbeck> This:
16:13:47 <markbirbeck> <div about="#bar" rel="s" id="foo" instanceof="t">
16:13:51 <markbirbeck> could be written as:
16:14:04 <markbirbeck> <div about="#bar" rel="s" resource="foo" instanceof="t">
16:15:19 <RalphS> s/could be written as/compared to/
16:15:20 <markbirbeck> In other words, the use-case that we want from having @id 'name' the bnode could be achieved by using @resource.
16:15:25 <kwijibo> kwijibo has left #rdfa
16:15:35 <benadida> <div id="foo" instanceof="t">
16:16:45 <benadida> _:div0 rdf:type t
16:19:12 <RalphS> Ben: it seems for consistency that in this @id @instanceof case that the subject of rdf:type is a bnode
16:19:22 <RalphS> ... do we agree that @instanceof causes chaining?
16:19:29 <RalphS> Mark: it would seem that it needs to do so
16:19:35 <benadida> <div id="foo" instanceof="t" rel="rdf:item">
16:19:44 <RalphS> ... what is the minimum markup needed to generate a triple?
16:20:35 <RalphS> Mark: thinking about the way people understand microformats, there are special markup triggers; e.g. class="vEvent"
16:21:02 <RalphS> ... so it should not be a problem for people to also learn that @instanceof is a trigger for interpretations of the child properties
16:21:38 <RalphS> Ben: we haven't made any new resolutions in this telecon, as we're not critical mass
16:22:20 <RalphS> ACTION: Ben writeup a summary of this discussion
16:22:53 <RalphS> Ben: is this a good time for Mark and Shane to start work on the new syntax document?
16:22:54 <Zakim> -markbirbeck
16:22:58 <RalphS> Mark: yeah, I think so
16:37:19 <Zakim> -Ralph
16:37:21 <Zakim> -benadida
16:37:23 <Zakim> SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has ended
16:37:24 <Zakim> Attendees were +1.617.395.aaaa, benadida, Ralph, markbirbeck
16:37:27 <RalphS> zakim, bye
16:37:27 <Zakim> Zakim has left #rdfa
16:37:33 <RalphS> Regrets: Steven
16:37:37 <RalphS> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:37:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/07/26-rdfa-minutes.html RalphS
16:37:43 <benadida> benadida has left #rdfa
16:38:07 <RalphS> rrsagent, please make record public
16:39:18 <RalphS> Chair: Ben
16:39:28 <RalphS> Scribe: Ralph
16:39:56 <RalphS> Scribe: Ralph, Ben
16:40:37 <RalphS> ^leveraging^Scribenick: ralphs
16:40:41 <RalphS> Scribe: Ralph
16:40:49 <RalphS> Scribe: Ralph, Ben
16:40:52 <RalphS> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:40:52 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/07/26-rdfa-minutes.html RalphS
16:42:09 <RalphS> i/leveraging/Scribenick: ralphs
16:42:11 <RalphS> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:42:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/07/26-rdfa-minutes.html RalphS
16:43:48 <RalphS> i/leveraging this/Scribenick: ralphs
16:43:50 <RalphS> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:43:50 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/07/26-rdfa-minutes.html RalphS
16:44:33 <RalphS> rrsagent, bye
16:44:33 <RRSAgent> I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/26-rdfa-actions.rdf :
16:44:33 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben writeup a summary of this discussion [1]
16:44:33 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/26-rdfa-irc#T16-22-20