16:33:02 RRSAgent has joined #ua 16:33:02 logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/07/19-ua-irc 16:33:09 rrsagent, set logs public 16:51:56 JR has joined #ua 16:54:36 WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started 16:54:42 +[Microsoft] 16:55:25 KFord has joined #ua 16:55:40 +Allanj 16:56:39 zakim, [Microsoft] is KFord 16:56:39 +KFord; got it 16:58:45 +??P11 16:59:00 zakim, ??P11 is really JR 16:59:00 +JR; got it 16:59:51 Scribe: JR 17:03:53 +Cathy_Laws 17:05:03 cklaws has joined #ua 17:05:39 zakim, Cathy_Laws is really cklaws 17:05:39 +cklaws; got it 17:10:00 Topic: Review Action Items related to wiki edits of guideline 3 17:10:00 ACTION: JR to Expand on idea of blocking functional areas: animation, 17:10:00 low contrast, etc. 17:10:10 oops 17:10:33 Topic: Review Action Items related to wiki edits of guideline 3 17:11:18 Topic: JR to Expand on idea of blocking functional areas: 17:12:02 JR: reviews currents structure - toggle individual components 17:12:25 ...new sections 17:12:58 ...1. toggle non-text - 17:13:10 ...2. toggle audio 17:13:36 ...3. toggle programatic content 17:13:49 ...4. toggle secondary UA 17:14:24 CL: combining or categorizing 17:15:19 JR: combining - images (animations, foreground, background) 17:16:14 JR: still issue with controlling thinks the UA doesn't know about...non-native items (flash, other audio, etc.) 17:16:30 CL: what about flash 17:17:06 JR: covered by 3. programmatic content - should be up to user to decide what to enable 17:17:44 CL: applets and plugins are different 17:19:43 JR: 4. launching secondary UA includes flash and all other UA plugins whether they open in a new window or embedded in base UA 17:20:14 JR: 1, 2, 3 are rendered natively by the UA. 17:20:59 CL: even within Flash player, it becomes the UA, is should have the 1, 2, 3, toggle ability 17:21:16 JR: flash is content type and a UA 17:22:05 JR: nothing prevents a UA to render new technologies natively (svg) 17:22:33 JR: need Peter to review. 17:22:57 KF: concern- feels like an onion with all the layers 17:23:31 JR: they are already there, just a reorganization. 17:24:16 JA: Brings up other issues, met Al Gilman at TEITAC... 17:24:49 PF has task to update "until user agents..." document... 17:24:59 CL: In PF or UA space? 17:25:11 JA: MAy be in both places. 17:25:37 Correction: not PF, it's in EO - general resources 17:26:02 JA: Rereading...lots fall in what we were just talking about 17:26:20 JA: eg. can't control what browser doesn't know about 17:27:16 JA: would say 2/3s of things in the doc are still valid because UAs still don't see that stuff 17:27:52 JA: Greg R. is now in PF and looking in on HTML working group has the task - sent JA the update 17:28:01 JA: But would be good to update it 17:28:14 http://www.hicom.net/~oedipus/temp/w3c/test/WAI-UA-Support_2007.html 17:28:43 JA: This is on Greg R's site. 17:28:54 http://www.w3.org/WAI/Resources/WAI-UA-Support 17:29:05 JA: This is link from UA's site to EO space. 17:30:41 CL: The doc refers to an old version of UAAG 17:31:09 CL: i.e. not the W3C Rec 17:31:59 JA: Will be affected also by WCAG 2.0 17:33:48 Action JA: Write to PF re: the update of the "intil user agents..." doc 17:35:40 Topic: JR to Proposal to limit "background image" to body of document 17:36:20 JR: Update to 3.1 toggle background image 17:37:50 JR: Allow configuration not to render IMAGES THAT ARE RENDERED BENEATH ALL 17:37:52 OF THE OTHER CONTENT RENDERED IN A VIEWPORT. 17:39:31 CL: problem, background image may be on part of page that is not being viewed. 17:40:12 JR: chose not to say 'body' because it is html specific 17:40:33 CL: what are you trying to limit. 17:41:42 CL: Viewport is not the right term 17:41:54 JR: Agree 17:43:20 CL: the UA would need to determine the "body" background image for other non-html technology, or strange coding methods. 17:43:28 CL: Peter's concern is semantically how to determine what is function of background image 17:44:17 KF: Right may not have semantic background across all 17:44:39 CL: need to programattically determine what is the background-image. 17:44:50 JR: "Canvas"? 17:45:17 CL: Maybe ... there are canvas widgets 17:45:23 JA: Is it semantic? 17:45:37 CL: Think of it as a whiteboard 17:46:48 JR: Should we go with "canvas"? 17:47:07 JA: Talking specifically about background image on body tag not divs etc 17:47:30 JA: Still doesn't get at main issue of many other ways to do the same thing 17:48:01 JA: Larger issue - how do we decide what to write guidelines about. 17:49:23 JR: many (most?) pages that use background image do it the one way that the UA can control 17:50:20 JR: 3.1 is too broad, need to change wording to focus on background of entire presenation (canvas) 17:50:32 presenation=presentation 17:50:45 CL: UA's can do this today? 17:51:14 CL: In DoJo they detect high contrast etc. and display text alternative 17:51:37 CL: Inaccessible widgets sets all bets are off 17:52:26 JA: So do we go with specific-case of background image? 17:52:59 JA: Reword so we know we are talking about the base background image 17:53:25 JA: Define "background image" 17:53:35 JA: of the canvas 17:54:40 Action JR: Fix up proposal on 3.1 and specifically exclude backgrounds other than for the canvas/base 17:55:36 Topic: Proposal that if a live region has focus, it shouldn't 17:55:37 update. 17:56:02 JA: Didn't write anything, just discussed with Al GIlman. 17:56:52 JA: Al said send to PF he says its a UA control issue 17:57:03 JA: But I thought it was a negotiation think 17:57:10 think=thing 17:58:05 KF: We have a setting for this already right? 17:58:18 JA: We do, but not just talking about one refresh 17:58:49 KF: Depends on how user is reading a page 17:59:21 JA: e.g. reading cursor vs. focus 17:59:42 KF: Jaws says they can handle all this refreshing already 18:00:39 Action JA: Do some more thinking about live region updating and focus 18:01:56 KF: Screens when sports going on... 18:02:08 KF: Pitch, stats, bases, etc. 18:02:21 KF: If focus on it it goes out of date 18:03:09 JA: THere is the politness of stuff 18:04:13 JR: Maybe politeness can be used to push through a region with focus. 18:04:43 JA: What about someone with cognitive impairment etc, who don't want changes in focussed regions 18:05:19 KF: Interesting area...slowing down world...what happens when you catch up again. 18:05:55 JA: Usually no buffering 18:06:03 KF: Danger in that too 18:07:03 ACTION: PP to Proposal to combine 3.2 and 3.3 18:07:06 -KFord 18:07:08 -cklaws 18:07:33 ACTION: JA to Get thoughts together about 3.4 "All executable content" managing configuration 18:07:53 ACTION: JR to Proposal to have configuration not to have stripped down user agent windows 18:08:02 ACTION: PP to Proposal on ways User Agents could use live regions 18:09:20 -Allanj 18:09:21 -JR 18:09:22 WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has ended 18:09:23 Attendees were Allanj, KFord, JR, cklaws 18:09:49 RRSAgent, make minutes 18:09:49 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/07/19-ua-minutes.html JR 18:09:58 RRSAgent, set logs public 18:10:03 Zakim, bye 18:10:03 Zakim has left #ua 18:10:09 RRSAgent, bye 18:10:09 I see 8 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/19-ua-actions.rdf : 18:10:09 ACTION: JR to Expand on idea of blocking functional areas: animation, [1] 18:10:09 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/19-ua-irc#T17-10-00-1 18:10:09 ACTION: JA to Write to PF re: the update of the "intil user agents..." doc [2] 18:10:09 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/19-ua-irc#T17-33-48 18:10:09 ACTION: JR to Fix up proposal on 3.1 and specifically exclude backgrounds other than for the canvas/base [3] 18:10:09 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/19-ua-irc#T17-54-40 18:10:09 ACTION: JA to Do some more thinking about live region updating and focus [4] 18:10:09 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/19-ua-irc#T18-00-39 18:10:09 ACTION: PP to Proposal to combine 3.2 and 3.3 [5] 18:10:09 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/19-ua-irc#T18-07-03 18:10:09 ACTION: JA to Get thoughts together about 3.4 "All executable content" managing configuration [6] 18:10:09 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/19-ua-irc#T18-07-33 18:10:09 ACTION: JR to Proposal to have configuration not to have stripped down user agent windows [7] 18:10:09 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/19-ua-irc#T18-07-53 18:10:09 ACTION: PP to Proposal on ways User Agents could use live regions [8] 18:10:09 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/19-ua-irc#T18-08-02 18:10:34 AllanJ has left #ua