IRC log of rdfa on 2007-07-12

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:01:12 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #rdfa

14:01:12 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/07/12-rdfa-irc

14:01:17 [Steven]

zakim, this will be rdfa

14:01:17 [Zakim]

ok, Steven; I see SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM scheduled to start in 59 minutes

14:01:29 [Steven]

rrsagent, make log public

14:03:33 [ShaneM]

I am going to be on the call... btu I expect I will be on the road when doing it. sry

14:04:57 [Steven]

ok

14:05:10 [Steven]

When you have time

14:05:29 [Steven]

I need advice on what exactly to do to convert an html doc to mhtml

14:05:34 [Steven]

(for your system)

14:17:13 [mhausenblas]

mhausenblas has joined #rdfa

14:17:44 [Steven]

hi

14:19:17 [mhausenblas]

RRSAgent, draft minutes

14:19:17 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/07/12-rdfa-minutes.html mhausenblas

14:19:30 [mhausenblas]

RRSAgent, make logs public

14:20:19 [mhausenblas]

zakim, this will be SW_SWD(RDFa)

14:20:19 [Zakim]

ok, mhausenblas; I see SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM scheduled to start in 40 minutes

14:20:37 [mhausenblas]

Meeting: W3C RDF-in-XHTML TF - Telecon 2007-07-12, 15:00 UTC

14:20:43 [mhausenblas]

Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Jul/0080.html

14:20:50 [mhausenblas]

Regrets: Simone_Onofri

14:20:56 [mhausenblas]

Chair: Ben

14:21:01 [mhausenblas]

ScribeNick: mhausenblas

14:21:07 [mhausenblas]

RRSAgent, draft minutes

14:21:07 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/07/12-rdfa-minutes.html mhausenblas

14:55:29 [RalphS]

RalphS has joined #rdfa

14:55:41 [Zakim]

SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has now started

14:55:49 [Zakim]

+Michael_Hausenblas

14:56:14 [mhausenblas]

Zakim, who is here?

14:56:14 [Zakim]

On the phone I see Michael_Hausenblas

14:56:15 [Zakim]

On IRC I see RalphS, mhausenblas, RRSAgent, Zakim, Steven, kwijibo, markbirbeck

14:56:30 [mhausenblas]

RRSAgent, draft minutes

14:56:30 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/07/12-rdfa-minutes.html mhausenblas

14:56:45 [kwijibo]

kwijibo has left #rdfa

14:56:55 [Zakim]

+Ralph

14:57:05 [kwijibo]

kwijibo has joined #rdfa

14:57:50 [benadida]

benadida has joined #rdfa

14:59:42 [Zakim]

+Ben

14:59:48 [Steven]

zakim, dial steven-617

14:59:48 [Zakim]

ok, Steven; the call is being made

14:59:50 [Zakim]

+Steven

15:00:25 [Zakim]

+McCarron

15:00:29 [benadida]

zakim, who is on the call?

15:00:29 [Zakim]

On the phone I see Michael_Hausenblas, Ralph, Ben, Steven, McCarron

15:00:46 [kwijibo]

kwijibo has left #rdfa

15:00:53 [mhausenblas]

Topic: Action Item Review

15:01:10 [mhausenblas]

-> http://www.w3.org/2007/07/05-rdfa-minutes.html#ActionSummary

15:01:25 [RalphS]

-> http://www.w3.org/2007/07/05-rdfa-minutes.html previous 2007-07-05

15:02:01 [Steven]

zakim, who is noisy?

15:02:12 [Zakim]

Steven, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: 5 (37%), Michael_Hausenblas (21%), Ben (70%), Ralph (0%), Steven (0%)

15:02:14 [ShaneM]

ShaneM has joined #rdfa

15:02:18 [Zakim]

-Ben

15:02:23 [Steven]

zakim, who is noisy?

15:02:29 [ShaneM]

that chop is likely from ben's IP phone

15:02:34 [Zakim]

Steven, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: 4 (68%), Michael_Hausenblas (5%), Ralph (19%), Steven (66%)

15:02:46 [Zakim]

+Ben_Adida

15:03:41 [markbirbeck]

zakim, codes?

15:03:41 [Zakim]

I don't understand your question, markbirbeck.

15:03:48 [markbirbeck]

zakim, code?

15:03:48 [Zakim]

the conference code is 7332 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), markbirbeck

15:03:51 [Steven]

zakim, code?

15:03:51 [Zakim]

the conference code is 7332 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), Steven

15:03:59 [Steven]

zakim, who is noisy?

15:04:10 [Zakim]

Steven, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: 5 (50%), Michael_Hausenblas (23%), Ben_Adida (17%), Ralph (4%), Steven (28%)

15:04:26 [Zakim]

+ +1.208.761.aaaa

15:04:40 [RalphS]

zakim, aaaa is Mark

15:04:40 [Zakim]

+Mark; got it

15:04:56 [mhausenblas]

[NEW] ACTION: Ben make a scribe schedule [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/05-rdfa-minutes.html#action01]

15:04:58 [mhausenblas]

-- done

15:05:06 [mhausenblas]

[NEW] ACTION: Ben summarize the state of @rel everywhere [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/05-rdfa-minutes.html#action16]

15:05:08 [mhausenblas]

-- done

15:05:18 [mhausenblas]

[NEW] ACTION: Ben to send to mailing list PROPOSE: LINK and META appear only in HEAD with no changes to content model [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/05-rdfa-minutes.html#action15]

15:05:22 [mhausenblas]

-- done

15:05:31 [mhausenblas]

[PENDING] ACTION: Ben/Ralph to figure out the RDFa-GRDDL-profile URI (at w3.org) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/14-rdfa-minutes.html#action15]

15:05:34 [mhausenblas]

-- continues

15:05:46 [mhausenblas]

[PENDING] ACTION: Ben to look into Science Commons use case [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/11-htmltf-minutes.html#action04]

15:06:22 [mhausenblas]

-- continues

15:06:27 [mhausenblas]

[PENDING] ACTION: Elias to send email to list with use case from IBM [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action10]

15:06:30 [mhausenblas]

-- continues

15:06:44 [mhausenblas]

[PENDING] ACTION: Mark get input from Joost on @HREF everywhere [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/21-rdfa-minutes.html#action14]

15:06:49 [RalphS]

-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Jul/0056.html Scribe schedule

15:07:26 [mhausenblas]

-- continues

15:07:57 [mhausenblas]

-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Jul/0072.html

15:08:05 [mhausenblas]

[PENDING] ACTION: MarkB to work rdf:label back into RDFa syntax when using @content [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/19-rdfa-minutes.html#action25]

15:08:08 [mhausenblas]

-- continues

15:08:14 [mhausenblas]

[PENDING] ACTION: Shane investigate the @xml:base validation issue [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action02]

15:08:16 [mhausenblas]

-- continues

15:08:22 [mhausenblas]

Topic: @href/@resource everywhere

15:08:28 [mhausenblas]

-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Jul/0059

15:08:42 [RalphS]

-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Jul/0072.html revised scribe schedule

15:09:06 [mhausenblas]

Ben: XHTML 1.1: it would be useful to have an attrib

15:09:19 [mhausenblas]

... issues: clickable

15:09:46 [mhausenblas]

Steven: XHTML 2 all URL need to be navigable

15:10:13 [mhausenblas]

... but not the same as clickable (as <a>)

15:10:24 [RalphS]

q+ to note implications for "RDFa-knowledgeble" clients

15:10:40 [mhausenblas]

... I opt for dereference URL

15:11:18 [mhausenblas]

Mark: Cf. to RDF URIRef

15:11:35 [mhausenblas]

Ralph: Mark's interpretation might be too strict

15:11:47 [mhausenblas]

... support Steven's POV

15:12:33 [mhausenblas]

... compare with CSS-aware client

15:13:11 [mhausenblas]

Mark: If information resource is derefable, it should be used

15:13:22 [mhausenblas]

... isbn-URI

15:13:39 [mhausenblas]

s/isbn-URI/isbn-URN

15:13:58 [mhausenblas]

Ben: Ok, let's take the book example

15:14:07 [mhausenblas]

... has an URN (ISBN)

15:14:50 [RalphS]

q+ to ask what's the problem with <a href="urn:..."> ?

15:15:03 [RalphS]

q+ to ask what's the problem with <span href="urn:..."> ?

15:15:22 [mhausenblas]

Ralph: Try to understand Mark's POV

15:15:40 [mhausenblas]

... see example <span href="urn:...">

15:16:43 [mhausenblas]

Mark: You could create UI for user, but need the metadata

15:16:58 [mhausenblas]

... what is the default behaviour

15:17:35 [mhausenblas]

Ralph: A non-metadata client might not have a default behaviour

15:18:06 [mhausenblas]

Mark: Example: Page with hundreds of books

15:18:26 [mhausenblas]

... linking to, say, amazon

15:18:41 [mhausenblas]

... with how many clickable links you end up?

15:19:17 [mhausenblas]

Ralph: Interpreting Steven, it depends on the client to figure out what to do

15:19:25 [mhausenblas]

... with a link (derefable)

15:20:06 [mhausenblas]

Mark: Think about smart browser

15:20:21 [mhausenblas]

... but what if there is nothing to go

15:21:08 [mhausenblas]

Ralph: The concern might be

15:21:22 [mhausenblas]

that the author has no way to determine the way

15:21:36 [mhausenblas]

... a user might follow the link

15:21:51 [mhausenblas]

Mark: We deal with RDF resources vs. navigable links

15:22:18 [mhausenblas]

Steven: Subject and Objects are intersting things to follow

15:22:40 [mhausenblas]

Mark: currently only object

15:22:56 [mhausenblas]

Ralph: Any time there is a URL

15:23:29 [mhausenblas]

... display context sensitive menu that allows for exploring a URL(I) content

15:24:10 [mhausenblas]

Ben: So there may be cases for @resource

15:24:32 [mhausenblas]

Mark: Don't mind @href everywhere

15:25:10 [mhausenblas]

... but different layers (triple layer, render, etc.)

15:26:21 [mhausenblas]

Mark: Misuse is possible, but that might not be a problem

15:26:47 [mhausenblas]

Ben: Try to find an agreement

15:26:55 [mhausenblas]

... @href should be everywhere

15:27:09 [mhausenblas]

... but also need @resource

15:29:59 [RalphS]

q+ to ask what our HTML5 position is w.r.t. @href

15:30:45 [mhausenblas]

Mark: One step at a time

15:31:04 [mhausenblas]

... @href might need to become derefable

15:32:16 [mhausenblas]

Ralph: A bit confused ...

15:32:37 [mhausenblas]

... in Mark's mail @href and @resource not the same semantics wrt RDFa

15:33:01 [mhausenblas]

Mark: In XHTML 2 context not a problem

15:33:13 [mhausenblas]

... we can't enforce it in XHTML 1

15:33:33 [mhausenblas]

... RDFa is about RDF - in (X)HTML

15:33:59 [mhausenblas]

... not change the behaviour of host language

15:34:32 [mhausenblas]

Ralph: But we can define how to behave wrt @resource

15:35:30 [mhausenblas]

Mark: What I mean is, we try here to add functionality in the UA

15:36:35 [mhausenblas]

Ralph: Have a foot in both fields (RDF and HTML)

15:37:51 [mhausenblas]

ACTION Ben to sum up @href/@resource everywhere proposal

15:38:09 [mhausenblas]

Topic: @class/@role/@new_attribute

15:38:57 [mhausenblas]

I'd opt for a new attrib (liked @instanceOf)

15:39:26 [mhausenblas]

Ben: Preferences for new attribute?

15:39:46 [mhausenblas]

Ralph: No strong opinion

15:39:49 [RalphS]

Ralph: from the pure RDF perspective, @href and @resource may have identical semantics. We can also say that we do not expect UAs to go to great lengths to make @resource "navigable". I would not, however, _prohibit_ UAs from making @resource have some interface representation

15:40:06 [mhausenblas]

Steven: happy with new attrib

15:40:15 [mhausenblas]

Ralph: new attrib would be ok

15:40:40 [mhausenblas]

Ben: Looks like I'm the only one who prefers @class

15:41:01 [RalphS]

Ralph: architecturally, I believe a new attribute is the right choice

15:41:05 [mhausenblas]

Ralph: Architectural POV would be good

15:41:31 [RalphS]

... however I respect the well-adopted precedents in the community

15:41:39 [mhausenblas]

Ben: Might cause problems

15:42:12 [mhausenblas]

Ben: Agreement to have new attrib

15:42:41 [benadida]

PROPOSAL: use a new attribute, not class or role, for syntactic sugar for rdf:type, name to be determined on the mailing list

15:43:01 [mhausenblas]

BEN: Any oppostion?

15:43:11 [benadida]

RESOLVED, with ben's reservation regarding changing away from @class

15:43:24 [mhausenblas]

Topic: @rel everywhere

15:43:30 [mhausenblas]

-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Jul/0057

15:43:46 [mhausenblas]

Ben: Let's split

15:44:41 [mhausenblas]

... for bNode resolved

15:45:16 [mhausenblas]

Mark: Can live with @rel everywhere

15:45:31 [mhausenblas]

... but 'political' level

15:45:38 [mhausenblas]

... with all new attribs

15:46:00 [mhausenblas]

Ben: So let's keep @rel

15:46:17 [mhausenblas]

... striping discussed separatly

15:47:32 [mhausenblas]

... remaining issues: what happens when you have @href and @rel everywhere

15:47:56 [mhausenblas]

Ralph: Fallback wrt HTML 5

15:51:23 [mhausenblas]

Ben: Will be addresses, though wide ranging

15:52:05 [mhausenblas]

Shane: Example what @rel without @href means

15:52:40 [mhausenblas]

Steven: New validator is available next week, AFAIK

15:53:03 [mhausenblas]

Topic: @src

15:53:08 [mhausenblas]

-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Jul/0041

15:53:22 [benadida]

<img about="s" rel="p" src="o" class="t">

15:53:31 [benadida]

<img about="s" rel="p" src="o" instanceof="t">

15:53:43 [benadida]

s p o

15:53:48 [benadida]

o rdf:type t

15:53:57 [mhausenblas]

+1

15:54:37 [mhausenblas]

Ben: As <img> has no content, this causes no prob

15:54:50 [mhausenblas]

... same for <object>

15:55:04 [RalphS]

q+ to ask why it isn't [o rdf:type t]

15:55:15 [RalphS]

q+ to ask why it isn't [s rdf:type t]

15:55:26 [mhausenblas]

Ben: <script> may have no content either

15:56:11 [RalphS]

q+ to ask why it isn't [s rdf:type t]

15:56:40 [mhausenblas]

Ralph: Why it isn't [s rdf:type t]

15:56:55 [Zakim]

-McCarron

15:57:38 [mhausenblas]

Mark: Because we are talking about the img

15:58:11 [mhausenblas]

Michael: This might be a bit too much of syntactic sugar, confusing (new) RDFa users

15:58:17 [benadida]

<div rel="foo:bar" instanceof="foo:Baz">

15:58:54 [benadida]

<div about="#a" rel="foo:bar" instanceof="foo:Baz">

15:59:53 [mhausenblas]

Mark: Cf. to the 'old way' with link in div (bNode)

16:00:18 [benadida]

<#a> foo:bar [rdf:type foo:Baz]

16:01:28 [mhausenblas]

Mark: Nothing stops us writing it all longhand in the examples

16:01:57 [mhausenblas]

Ben: Can we agree on <img> @src behaves like @rel

16:02:08 [mhausenblas]

Ralph: Might need to study this deeper

16:02:34 [mhausenblas]

RRSAgent, draft minutes

16:02:34 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/07/12-rdfa-minutes.html mhausenblas

16:03:25 [RalphS]

zakim, list participants

16:03:25 [Zakim]

As of this point the attendees have been Michael_Hausenblas, Ralph, Ben, Steven, McCarron, Ben_Adida, +1.208.761.aaaa, Mark

16:03:31 [mhausenblas]

Ben: We making good progress

16:03:37 [mhausenblas]

Michael: TC TC TC :)

16:03:57 [RalphS]

q+ to mention f2f

16:04:25 [mhausenblas]

Ralph: F2F SWD-WG action

16:04:36 [mhausenblas]

... Nov TechPlenary meeting

16:05:05 [mhausenblas]

... but as of our schedule, we might not need a F2F, there

16:05:20 [mhausenblas]

... if so then in the context of the XHTML 2 WG

16:05:38 [RalphS]

ack me

16:05:39 [Zakim]

RalphS, you wanted to mention f2f

16:06:14 [mhausenblas]

Ben: Thanks everyone ... till next week

16:06:15 [Zakim]

-Mark

16:06:17 [Zakim]

-Steven

16:06:18 [Zakim]

-Ralph

16:06:19 [Zakim]

-Ben_Adida

16:06:23 [Zakim]

-Michael_Hausenblas

16:06:32 [mhausenblas]

RRSAgent, draft minutes

16:06:32 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/07/12-rdfa-minutes.html mhausenblas

16:06:39 [Zakim]

SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has ended

16:06:40 [Zakim]

Attendees were Michael_Hausenblas, Ralph, Ben, Steven, McCarron, Ben_Adida, +1.208.761.aaaa, Mark

16:08:03 [RalphS]

zakim, bye

16:08:03 [Zakim]

Zakim has left #rdfa

16:08:48 [benadida]

benadida has left #rdfa

17:16:24 [RalphS]

rrsagent, bye

17:16:24 [RRSAgent]

I see no action items