IRC log of rdfa on 2007-07-12

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:01:12 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #rdfa
14:01:12 [RRSAgent]
logging to
14:01:17 [Steven]
zakim, this will be rdfa
14:01:17 [Zakim]
ok, Steven; I see SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM scheduled to start in 59 minutes
14:01:29 [Steven]
rrsagent, make log public
14:03:33 [ShaneM]
I am going to be on the call... btu I expect I will be on the road when doing it. sry
14:04:57 [Steven]
14:05:10 [Steven]
When you have time
14:05:29 [Steven]
I need advice on what exactly to do to convert an html doc to mhtml
14:05:34 [Steven]
(for your system)
14:17:13 [mhausenblas]
mhausenblas has joined #rdfa
14:17:44 [Steven]
14:19:17 [mhausenblas]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
14:19:17 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate mhausenblas
14:19:30 [mhausenblas]
RRSAgent, make logs public
14:20:19 [mhausenblas]
zakim, this will be SW_SWD(RDFa)
14:20:19 [Zakim]
ok, mhausenblas; I see SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM scheduled to start in 40 minutes
14:20:37 [mhausenblas]
Meeting: W3C RDF-in-XHTML TF - Telecon 2007-07-12, 15:00 UTC
14:20:43 [mhausenblas]
14:20:50 [mhausenblas]
Regrets: Simone_Onofri
14:20:56 [mhausenblas]
Chair: Ben
14:21:01 [mhausenblas]
ScribeNick: mhausenblas
14:21:07 [mhausenblas]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
14:21:07 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate mhausenblas
14:55:29 [RalphS]
RalphS has joined #rdfa
14:55:41 [Zakim]
SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has now started
14:55:49 [Zakim]
14:56:14 [mhausenblas]
Zakim, who is here?
14:56:14 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Michael_Hausenblas
14:56:15 [Zakim]
On IRC I see RalphS, mhausenblas, RRSAgent, Zakim, Steven, kwijibo, markbirbeck
14:56:30 [mhausenblas]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
14:56:30 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate mhausenblas
14:56:45 [kwijibo]
kwijibo has left #rdfa
14:56:55 [Zakim]
14:57:05 [kwijibo]
kwijibo has joined #rdfa
14:57:50 [benadida]
benadida has joined #rdfa
14:59:42 [Zakim]
14:59:48 [Steven]
zakim, dial steven-617
14:59:48 [Zakim]
ok, Steven; the call is being made
14:59:50 [Zakim]
15:00:25 [Zakim]
15:00:29 [benadida]
zakim, who is on the call?
15:00:29 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Michael_Hausenblas, Ralph, Ben, Steven, McCarron
15:00:46 [kwijibo]
kwijibo has left #rdfa
15:00:53 [mhausenblas]
Topic: Action Item Review
15:01:10 [mhausenblas]
15:01:25 [RalphS]
-> previous 2007-07-05
15:02:01 [Steven]
zakim, who is noisy?
15:02:12 [Zakim]
Steven, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: 5 (37%), Michael_Hausenblas (21%), Ben (70%), Ralph (0%), Steven (0%)
15:02:14 [ShaneM]
ShaneM has joined #rdfa
15:02:18 [Zakim]
15:02:23 [Steven]
zakim, who is noisy?
15:02:29 [ShaneM]
that chop is likely from ben's IP phone
15:02:34 [Zakim]
Steven, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: 4 (68%), Michael_Hausenblas (5%), Ralph (19%), Steven (66%)
15:02:46 [Zakim]
15:03:41 [markbirbeck]
zakim, codes?
15:03:41 [Zakim]
I don't understand your question, markbirbeck.
15:03:48 [markbirbeck]
zakim, code?
15:03:48 [Zakim]
the conference code is 7332 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+ tel:+44.117.370.6152), markbirbeck
15:03:51 [Steven]
zakim, code?
15:03:51 [Zakim]
the conference code is 7332 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+ tel:+44.117.370.6152), Steven
15:03:59 [Steven]
zakim, who is noisy?
15:04:10 [Zakim]
Steven, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: 5 (50%), Michael_Hausenblas (23%), Ben_Adida (17%), Ralph (4%), Steven (28%)
15:04:26 [Zakim]
+ +1.208.761.aaaa
15:04:40 [RalphS]
zakim, aaaa is Mark
15:04:40 [Zakim]
+Mark; got it
15:04:56 [mhausenblas]
[NEW] ACTION: Ben make a scribe schedule [recorded in]
15:04:58 [mhausenblas]
-- done
15:05:06 [mhausenblas]
[NEW] ACTION: Ben summarize the state of @rel everywhere [recorded in]
15:05:08 [mhausenblas]
-- done
15:05:18 [mhausenblas]
[NEW] ACTION: Ben to send to mailing list PROPOSE: LINK and META appear only in HEAD with no changes to content model [recorded in]
15:05:22 [mhausenblas]
-- done
15:05:31 [mhausenblas]
[PENDING] ACTION: Ben/Ralph to figure out the RDFa-GRDDL-profile URI (at [recorded in]
15:05:34 [mhausenblas]
-- continues
15:05:46 [mhausenblas]
[PENDING] ACTION: Ben to look into Science Commons use case [recorded in]
15:06:22 [mhausenblas]
-- continues
15:06:27 [mhausenblas]
[PENDING] ACTION: Elias to send email to list with use case from IBM [recorded in]
15:06:30 [mhausenblas]
-- continues
15:06:44 [mhausenblas]
[PENDING] ACTION: Mark get input from Joost on @HREF everywhere [recorded in]
15:06:49 [RalphS]
-> Scribe schedule
15:07:26 [mhausenblas]
-- continues
15:07:57 [mhausenblas]
15:08:05 [mhausenblas]
[PENDING] ACTION: MarkB to work rdf:label back into RDFa syntax when using @content [recorded in]
15:08:08 [mhausenblas]
-- continues
15:08:14 [mhausenblas]
[PENDING] ACTION: Shane investigate the @xml:base validation issue [recorded in]
15:08:16 [mhausenblas]
-- continues
15:08:22 [mhausenblas]
Topic: @href/@resource everywhere
15:08:28 [mhausenblas]
15:08:42 [RalphS]
-> revised scribe schedule
15:09:06 [mhausenblas]
Ben: XHTML 1.1: it would be useful to have an attrib
15:09:19 [mhausenblas]
... issues: clickable
15:09:46 [mhausenblas]
Steven: XHTML 2 all URL need to be navigable
15:10:13 [mhausenblas]
... but not the same as clickable (as <a>)
15:10:24 [RalphS]
q+ to note implications for "RDFa-knowledgeble" clients
15:10:40 [mhausenblas]
... I opt for dereference URL
15:11:18 [mhausenblas]
Mark: Cf. to RDF URIRef
15:11:35 [mhausenblas]
Ralph: Mark's interpretation might be too strict
15:11:47 [mhausenblas]
... support Steven's POV
15:12:33 [mhausenblas]
... compare with CSS-aware client
15:13:11 [mhausenblas]
Mark: If information resource is derefable, it should be used
15:13:22 [mhausenblas]
... isbn-URI
15:13:39 [mhausenblas]
15:13:58 [mhausenblas]
Ben: Ok, let's take the book example
15:14:07 [mhausenblas]
... has an URN (ISBN)
15:14:50 [RalphS]
q+ to ask what's the problem with <a href="urn:..."> ?
15:15:03 [RalphS]
q+ to ask what's the problem with <span href="urn:..."> ?
15:15:22 [mhausenblas]
Ralph: Try to understand Mark's POV
15:15:40 [mhausenblas]
... see example <span href="urn:...">
15:16:43 [mhausenblas]
Mark: You could create UI for user, but need the metadata
15:16:58 [mhausenblas]
... what is the default behaviour
15:17:35 [mhausenblas]
Ralph: A non-metadata client might not have a default behaviour
15:18:06 [mhausenblas]
Mark: Example: Page with hundreds of books
15:18:26 [mhausenblas]
... linking to, say, amazon
15:18:41 [mhausenblas]
... with how many clickable links you end up?
15:19:17 [mhausenblas]
Ralph: Interpreting Steven, it depends on the client to figure out what to do
15:19:25 [mhausenblas]
... with a link (derefable)
15:20:06 [mhausenblas]
Mark: Think about smart browser
15:20:21 [mhausenblas]
... but what if there is nothing to go
15:21:08 [mhausenblas]
Ralph: The concern might be
15:21:22 [mhausenblas]
that the author has no way to determine the way
15:21:36 [mhausenblas]
... a user might follow the link
15:21:51 [mhausenblas]
Mark: We deal with RDF resources vs. navigable links
15:22:18 [mhausenblas]
Steven: Subject and Objects are intersting things to follow
15:22:40 [mhausenblas]
Mark: currently only object
15:22:56 [mhausenblas]
Ralph: Any time there is a URL
15:23:29 [mhausenblas]
... display context sensitive menu that allows for exploring a URL(I) content
15:24:10 [mhausenblas]
Ben: So there may be cases for @resource
15:24:32 [mhausenblas]
Mark: Don't mind @href everywhere
15:25:10 [mhausenblas]
... but different layers (triple layer, render, etc.)
15:26:21 [mhausenblas]
Mark: Misuse is possible, but that might not be a problem
15:26:47 [mhausenblas]
Ben: Try to find an agreement
15:26:55 [mhausenblas]
... @href should be everywhere
15:27:09 [mhausenblas]
... but also need @resource
15:29:59 [RalphS]
q+ to ask what our HTML5 position is w.r.t. @href
15:30:45 [mhausenblas]
Mark: One step at a time
15:31:04 [mhausenblas]
... @href might need to become derefable
15:32:16 [mhausenblas]
Ralph: A bit confused ...
15:32:37 [mhausenblas]
... in Mark's mail @href and @resource not the same semantics wrt RDFa
15:33:01 [mhausenblas]
Mark: In XHTML 2 context not a problem
15:33:13 [mhausenblas]
... we can't enforce it in XHTML 1
15:33:33 [mhausenblas]
... RDFa is about RDF - in (X)HTML
15:33:59 [mhausenblas]
... not change the behaviour of host language
15:34:32 [mhausenblas]
Ralph: But we can define how to behave wrt @resource
15:35:30 [mhausenblas]
Mark: What I mean is, we try here to add functionality in the UA
15:36:35 [mhausenblas]
Ralph: Have a foot in both fields (RDF and HTML)
15:37:51 [mhausenblas]
ACTION Ben to sum up @href/@resource everywhere proposal
15:38:09 [mhausenblas]
Topic: @class/@role/@new_attribute
15:38:57 [mhausenblas]
I'd opt for a new attrib (liked @instanceOf)
15:39:26 [mhausenblas]
Ben: Preferences for new attribute?
15:39:46 [mhausenblas]
Ralph: No strong opinion
15:39:49 [RalphS]
Ralph: from the pure RDF perspective, @href and @resource may have identical semantics. We can also say that we do not expect UAs to go to great lengths to make @resource "navigable". I would not, however, _prohibit_ UAs from making @resource have some interface representation
15:40:06 [mhausenblas]
Steven: happy with new attrib
15:40:15 [mhausenblas]
Ralph: new attrib would be ok
15:40:40 [mhausenblas]
Ben: Looks like I'm the only one who prefers @class
15:41:01 [RalphS]
Ralph: architecturally, I believe a new attribute is the right choice
15:41:05 [mhausenblas]
Ralph: Architectural POV would be good
15:41:31 [RalphS]
... however I respect the well-adopted precedents in the community
15:41:39 [mhausenblas]
Ben: Might cause problems
15:42:12 [mhausenblas]
Ben: Agreement to have new attrib
15:42:41 [benadida]
PROPOSAL: use a new attribute, not class or role, for syntactic sugar for rdf:type, name to be determined on the mailing list
15:43:01 [mhausenblas]
BEN: Any oppostion?
15:43:11 [benadida]
RESOLVED, with ben's reservation regarding changing away from @class
15:43:24 [mhausenblas]
Topic: @rel everywhere
15:43:30 [mhausenblas]
15:43:46 [mhausenblas]
Ben: Let's split
15:44:41 [mhausenblas]
... for bNode resolved
15:45:16 [mhausenblas]
Mark: Can live with @rel everywhere
15:45:31 [mhausenblas]
... but 'political' level
15:45:38 [mhausenblas]
... with all new attribs
15:46:00 [mhausenblas]
Ben: So let's keep @rel
15:46:17 [mhausenblas]
... striping discussed separatly
15:47:32 [mhausenblas]
... remaining issues: what happens when you have @href and @rel everywhere
15:47:56 [mhausenblas]
Ralph: Fallback wrt HTML 5
15:51:23 [mhausenblas]
Ben: Will be addresses, though wide ranging
15:52:05 [mhausenblas]
Shane: Example what @rel without @href means
15:52:40 [mhausenblas]
Steven: New validator is available next week, AFAIK
15:53:03 [mhausenblas]
Topic: @src
15:53:08 [mhausenblas]
15:53:22 [benadida]
<img about="s" rel="p" src="o" class="t">
15:53:31 [benadida]
<img about="s" rel="p" src="o" instanceof="t">
15:53:43 [benadida]
s p o
15:53:48 [benadida]
o rdf:type t
15:53:57 [mhausenblas]
15:54:37 [mhausenblas]
Ben: As <img> has no content, this causes no prob
15:54:50 [mhausenblas]
... same for <object>
15:55:04 [RalphS]
q+ to ask why it isn't [o rdf:type t]
15:55:15 [RalphS]
q+ to ask why it isn't [s rdf:type t]
15:55:26 [mhausenblas]
Ben: <script> may have no content either
15:56:11 [RalphS]
q+ to ask why it isn't [s rdf:type t]
15:56:40 [mhausenblas]
Ralph: Why it isn't [s rdf:type t]
15:56:55 [Zakim]
15:57:38 [mhausenblas]
Mark: Because we are talking about the img
15:58:11 [mhausenblas]
Michael: This might be a bit too much of syntactic sugar, confusing (new) RDFa users
15:58:17 [benadida]
<div rel="foo:bar" instanceof="foo:Baz">
15:58:54 [benadida]
<div about="#a" rel="foo:bar" instanceof="foo:Baz">
15:59:53 [mhausenblas]
Mark: Cf. to the 'old way' with link in div (bNode)
16:00:18 [benadida]
<#a> foo:bar [rdf:type foo:Baz]
16:01:28 [mhausenblas]
Mark: Nothing stops us writing it all longhand in the examples
16:01:57 [mhausenblas]
Ben: Can we agree on <img> @src behaves like @rel
16:02:08 [mhausenblas]
Ralph: Might need to study this deeper
16:02:34 [mhausenblas]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:02:34 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate mhausenblas
16:03:25 [RalphS]
zakim, list participants
16:03:25 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been Michael_Hausenblas, Ralph, Ben, Steven, McCarron, Ben_Adida, +1.208.761.aaaa, Mark
16:03:31 [mhausenblas]
Ben: We making good progress
16:03:37 [mhausenblas]
Michael: TC TC TC :)
16:03:57 [RalphS]
q+ to mention f2f
16:04:25 [mhausenblas]
Ralph: F2F SWD-WG action
16:04:36 [mhausenblas]
... Nov TechPlenary meeting
16:05:05 [mhausenblas]
... but as of our schedule, we might not need a F2F, there
16:05:20 [mhausenblas]
... if so then in the context of the XHTML 2 WG
16:05:38 [RalphS]
ack me
16:05:39 [Zakim]
RalphS, you wanted to mention f2f
16:06:14 [mhausenblas]
Ben: Thanks everyone ... till next week
16:06:15 [Zakim]
16:06:17 [Zakim]
16:06:18 [Zakim]
16:06:19 [Zakim]
16:06:23 [Zakim]
16:06:32 [mhausenblas]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:06:32 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate mhausenblas
16:06:39 [Zakim]
SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has ended
16:06:40 [Zakim]
Attendees were Michael_Hausenblas, Ralph, Ben, Steven, McCarron, Ben_Adida, +1.208.761.aaaa, Mark
16:08:03 [RalphS]
zakim, bye
16:08:03 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #rdfa
16:08:48 [benadida]
benadida has left #rdfa
17:16:24 [RalphS]
rrsagent, bye
17:16:24 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items