IRC log of rdfa on 2007-07-05

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:56:28 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #rdfa
14:56:28 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/07/05-rdfa-irc
14:56:34 [Steven]
zakim, this will be rdfa
14:56:34 [Zakim]
ok, Steven; I see SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM scheduled to start in 4 minutes
14:56:42 [Steven]
rrsagent, make log public
14:59:18 [kwijibo]
kwijibo has joined #rdfa
14:59:55 [Zakim]
SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has now started
15:00:04 [Zakim]
+ShaneM
15:00:13 [Steven]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Jul/0009
15:00:23 [Steven]
Steven has changed the topic to: Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Jul/0009
15:00:29 [Steven]
zakim, dial steven-work
15:00:29 [Zakim]
ok, Steven; the call is being made
15:00:31 [Zakim]
+Steven
15:04:01 [Zakim]
+Ralph
15:04:29 [RalphS]
Meeting: RDFa Task Force
15:05:27 [RalphS]
-> http://www.w3.org/2007/06/28-rdfa-minutes.html previous 2007-06-28
15:06:15 [Zakim]
+??P19
15:06:29 [markbirbeck]
zakim, i am ?
15:06:29 [Zakim]
+markbirbeck; got it
15:06:35 [benadida]
benadida has joined #rdfa
15:07:05 [Zakim]
+ +1.617.395.aaaa
15:07:11 [RalphS]
zakim, aaaa is Ben
15:07:11 [Zakim]
+Ben; got it
15:08:03 [RalphS]
Chair: Ben
15:08:22 [benadida]
zakim, who's on the phone
15:08:22 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'who's on the phone', benadida
15:08:24 [Steven]
zakim, who is here?
15:08:27 [Zakim]
On the phone I see ShaneM, Steven, Ralph, markbirbeck, Ben
15:08:29 [Zakim]
On IRC I see benadida, kwijibo, RRSAgent, Zakim, RalphS, ShaneM, Steven, markbirbeck
15:09:49 [RalphS]
Topic: Action Summary
15:10:21 [RalphS]
ACTION: Ben make a scribe schedule
15:10:32 [RalphS]
scribe: Ralph
15:10:54 [RalphS]
ACTION: Michael add a test case that test for omitted @about [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action04]
15:10:57 [RalphS]
-- continues
15:11:04 [RalphS]
ACTION: Michael correct TC15 title [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action05]
15:11:05 [RalphS]
-- continues
15:11:12 [RalphS]
ACTION: Michael create a .htaccess hack to make the test case identifiers resolve to something useful [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action01]
15:11:13 [RalphS]
-- continues
15:11:19 [RalphS]
ACTION: Shane investigate the @xml:base validation issue [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action02]
15:11:30 [RalphS]
Shane: this appears to be harder than I thought
15:11:46 [RalphS]
Ben: we expect xml:base to be used in HEAD ?
15:12:03 [RalphS]
... to set the CURIE base URI?
15:12:24 [RalphS]
Mark: yes, it should work with HTML base
15:12:29 [RalphS]
-- continues
15:12:38 [RalphS]
[DONE] ACTION: Shane to correct DTD to permit RDFa attributes on the head element. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action03]
15:12:50 [RalphS]
[DONE] ACTION: Ben get further input from Creative Commons on @RESOURCE and @HREF [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/21-rdfa-minutes.html#action15]
15:13:07 [Simone]
Simone has joined #rdfa
15:13:46 [RalphS]
-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Jun/0147.html the Creative Commons take on @href everywhere [Ben 2007-06-27]
15:13:56 [markbirbeck]
zakim, q+
15:13:56 [Zakim]
I see markbirbeck on the speaker queue
15:14:02 [RalphS]
ACTION: Ben to figure out the RDFa-GRDDL-profile URI (at w3.org) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/14-rdfa-minutes.html#action15]
15:14:04 [RalphS]
-- continues
15:14:14 [RalphS]
Ralph: I'll take this one over from Ben
15:14:47 [RalphS]
Mark: let's put @href everywhere on our syntax agenda; what does it mean for HTML ?
15:14:56 [RalphS]
... it's no longer XHTML2-ish
15:15:08 [RalphS]
... one possibility is to defer @href everywhere to a future version
15:15:25 [RalphS]
Ben: I'll add this to issues list
15:15:31 [markbirbeck]
s/@href/@xml:base/
15:15:43 [Zakim]
+??P24
15:15:56 [RalphS]
s/put @href/put @xml:base/
15:16:05 [RalphS]
ACTION: Ben to look into Science Commons use case [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/11-htmltf-minutes.html#action04]
15:16:07 [RalphS]
-- continues
15:16:07 [Simone]
Zakim, ??P24 is me
15:16:07 [Zakim]
+Simone; got it
15:16:13 [RalphS]
ACTION: Elias to send email to list with use case from IBM [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action10]
15:16:14 [RalphS]
-- continues
15:16:24 [RalphS]
ACTION: Mark get input from Joost on @HREF everywhere [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/21-rdfa-minutes.html#action14]
15:16:25 [RalphS]
-- continues
15:16:34 [RalphS]
Mark: I sent email to Joost today
15:16:46 [RalphS]
ACTION: Mark produce more examples of applicability of n-ary relations from IPTC documents [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/23-htmltf-minutes.html#action08]
15:17:06 [RalphS]
Mark: this is part of the reification discussion
15:17:20 [RalphS]
... let's defer it to the future
15:17:41 [RalphS]
-- withdrawn
15:18:21 [RalphS]
ACTION: MarkB to work rdf:label back into RDFa syntax when using @content [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/19-rdfa-minutes.html#action25]
15:18:44 [RalphS]
-- continues
15:19:02 [RalphS]
Mark: this is more problematic than I first though too
15:19:10 [RalphS]
[DONE] ACTION: Steven to put together sample XHTML2 doc with all mime type, etc. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-htmltf-minutes.html#action01]
15:19:43 [RalphS]
Topic: METAs and LINKs in the body: should we get rid of them?
15:20:09 [RalphS]
-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Jul/0007.html [RDFa] ISSUE 9: META and LINK in the body
15:20:37 [RalphS]
Ben: if we remove LINK in the body then it feels to me we may need to have @href and @resource everywhere
15:20:59 [RalphS]
Steven: I think it's a bad idea to depend on META and LINK in the body
15:21:15 [RalphS]
... everything that depends on this behavior we should find a different way to do
15:22:02 [RalphS]
Ben: if served as html+xml then FireFox no longer repositions these to HEAD
15:22:11 [RalphS]
... IE continues to do this, however
15:22:44 [RalphS]
Ralph: this feels to me as something where we should not step on the base language
15:23:00 [RalphS]
Shane: we have changed the content model of HEAD by saying META and LINK both accept content
15:23:04 [benadida]
no, simone, we don't hear you
15:23:07 [RalphS]
Steven: yes, for XHTML2, and this is a good thing
15:23:25 [RalphS]
Mark: IE does not move LINK and META in HTML mode
15:23:26 [Steven]
zakim, who is here?
15:23:26 [Zakim]
On the phone I see ShaneM, Steven, Ralph, markbirbeck, Ben, Simone
15:23:27 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Simone, benadida, kwijibo, RRSAgent, Zakim, RalphS, ShaneM, Steven, markbirbeck
15:23:45 [RalphS]
... what it does do is treat META as a straight element with open and close tags
15:24:04 [RalphS]
... <META>text</META> is treated as 3 sibling nodes by IE
15:24:18 [RalphS]
... so even if we do allow META in the body there is quirky parsing
15:24:32 [RalphS]
... I've made this work in my parser but it is quirky
15:25:11 [Zakim]
-Simone
15:25:27 [RalphS]
Shane: my change to HEAD content model is for XHTML1.1 -- let's not discuss XHTML2 here
15:25:55 [RalphS]
Ben: should we change back to original content models for LINK and META and just add @property ?
15:26:34 [RalphS]
Steven: I think it's good to permit LINK and META in body for XHTML2 but not for XHTML1.1
15:26:49 [RalphS]
Ben: what about content of LINK and META? This doesn't seem very useful in this case
15:27:05 [RalphS]
Shane: I don't understand what problem this was intended to solve, but LINK can contain LINK
15:27:40 [RalphS]
Ben: since we're deferring reification, maybe we can undo our changes to LINK and META content model
15:27:54 [RalphS]
... we had a use case from Bob Ducharme with nested LINKs
15:28:05 [RalphS]
... we could say this feature will only be available in XHTML2
15:28:48 [RalphS]
Steven: if you want to put something in the HEAD and have marked-up content in META you couldn't do this
15:29:16 [RalphS]
Mark: Bob's example was the IPTC use case of wanting to say who made an assertion; this is reificiation
15:29:37 [RalphS]
... the other use case for content in META is XMLLiteral
15:29:51 [RalphS]
... since attribute content can't contain markup
15:31:51 [RalphS]
PROPOSE: LINK and META appear only in HEAD with no changes to content model
15:31:55 [RalphS]
[no objections]
15:32:04 [benadida]
action: Ben to send to mailing list PROPOSE: LINK and META appear only in HEAD with no changes to content model
15:32:34 [RalphS]
Shane: I think this allows us to remove the whole "metainformation module" part of the spec
15:32:51 [RalphS]
Topic: @about
15:33:05 [RalphS]
Steven: we say 'use the closest @about when generating the subject'
15:33:14 [RalphS]
... with special rules for META and LINK
15:33:20 [RalphS]
... I guess those special rules now go away?
15:33:29 [RalphS]
Ben: but we still want bnodes
15:33:41 [RalphS]
... so some of the use cases are replaced by @rel without @href
15:34:05 [RalphS]
Steven: this takes care of object, but not subject
15:34:09 [RalphS]
Ben: can do the same with SPAN
15:34:19 [benadida]
<div id="foo" rel="foaf:knows">
15:34:25 [benadida]
<span property="foaf:name">Ben</span>
15:34:27 [benadida]
</div>
15:35:25 [RalphS]
Ben: in this example, @rel sets the subject because there's no @href
15:35:36 [benadida]
<div about="#bar">
15:35:40 [benadida]
<div id="foo" rel="foaf:knows">
15:35:45 [benadida]
<span property="foaf:name">Ben</span>
15:35:47 [benadida]
</div>
15:35:48 [benadida]
</div>
15:35:59 [benadida]
<#bar> foaf:knows <#foo>
15:36:04 [RalphS]
Ben: this example means ...
15:36:12 [benadida]
<#foo> foaf:name "Ben"
15:37:04 [RalphS]
... @rel without @href makes that node be the subject; it would be a bnode if it didn't have @id
15:37:30 [RalphS]
... later we can talk about what it means if the DIV had @href
15:37:41 [RalphS]
Mark: agree with that interpretation
15:38:00 [RalphS]
Ben: so this handles most of the cases where we used META in BODY
15:38:20 [Simone]
Simone has joined #rdfa
15:38:38 [RalphS]
... it becomes more important to relate the bnode to the document
15:38:48 [RalphS]
ACTION: Ben summarize the state of @rel everywhere
15:40:17 [benadida]
simone, are you on the call?
15:40:29 [Steven]
zakim, who is here?
15:40:29 [Zakim]
On the phone I see ShaneM, Steven, Ralph, markbirbeck, Ben
15:40:30 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Simone, benadida, kwijibo, RRSAgent, Zakim, RalphS, ShaneM, Steven, markbirbeck
15:40:55 [benadida]
can you type out your comment?
15:41:26 [RalphS]
simone, ok to put "I prefer to not use META and LINK an all, I like approach of iRDF (fromer eRDF), so META is an EMPTY element and may create problems" into the record?
15:41:36 [RalphS]
oops
15:41:39 [RalphS]
I guess I just did :)
15:41:53 [RalphS]
Simone: I prefer to not use META and LINK an all, I like approach of iRDF (fromer eRDF), so META is an EMPTY element and may create problems
15:42:12 [RalphS]
Topic: CURIEs vs. QNames: what to do for XHTML1.1+RDFa?
15:42:50 [markbirbeck]
zakim, q+
15:42:50 [Zakim]
I see markbirbeck on the speaker queue
15:42:51 [RalphS]
Ben: as Shane points out, since CURIE spec is not done it's dangerous for RDFa to have it as a dependency
15:43:22 [RalphS]
Mark: the choices are not CURIE vs QName but CURIE vs. something unspecified
15:43:35 [RalphS]
... look at SPARQL and RULEML
15:43:58 [RalphS]
... there is a tendency towards using the [syntactic] concept of QName but without the restrictions
15:44:16 [RalphS]
... we either do the same thing; looks like a QName but new rules for how they're defined
15:44:29 [RalphS]
... I don't like to continue the misuse of QName
15:44:51 [RalphS]
... QName is for defining elements and attributes in XML markup
15:44:53 [benadida]
cc:attributionName
15:45:49 [RalphS]
Ben: cc:attributionName can be expressed in RDF/XML
15:46:03 [RalphS]
... is this not really a QName, just looks like one?
15:46:26 [RalphS]
Mark: it conforms to the syntax but out of context it can't be a QName, because the purpose of QName is to define an element
15:47:03 [RalphS]
... so when it's used as a predicate in RDF/XML it's fine because it _is_ defining an element
15:47:48 [RalphS]
Ben: can we punt to SPARQL and N3 and simply say we're using the syntax the same way they are? And in XHTML2 clean it up by defining CURIE
15:48:08 [RalphS]
... we can say we'll use the same inconsistent view that others have
15:48:18 [RalphS]
Mark: but SPARQL doesn't refer to QName
15:49:22 [markbirbeck]
http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-sparql-query/#QSynIRI
15:50:38 [RalphS]
Steven: SPARQL calls these "prefixed names", not QNames
15:51:05 [RalphS]
Mark: and there's a big red box noting that not all prefixed names are XML QNames
15:51:21 [RalphS]
Ben: will we get into trouble by using @xmlns to define the prefixes?
15:51:33 [RalphS]
Mark: this has been talked about a lot
15:51:49 [RalphS]
... one suggestion is to say that @xmlns is only one way to define prefixes
15:52:28 [RalphS]
... could use a triple to declare a prefix; then LINK suffices
15:52:49 [ShaneM]
(rel = curiePrefix)
15:52:50 [RalphS]
... alternative is to include @xmlns in our vocabulary
15:53:26 [RalphS]
... or, further, say 'given these attribute values, load these triples'; e.g. well-known prefixes
15:53:45 [RalphS]
Ben: I don't like the third option as it doesn't allow people to include arbitrary RDF
15:53:59 [RalphS]
s/RDF/RDF vocabularies/
15:54:31 [RalphS]
Steven: the triple relation would be between a string and a URI, right? so it would have to be done with META and not LINK
15:54:45 [Steven]
<meta about="http://ns" property="prefix" content="my"/>
15:55:03 [RalphS]
Mark: I agree with Steven
15:55:37 [RalphS]
Ben: I'm concerned about using a triple for this because the declaration should only be local to the document
15:56:15 [Simone]
Simone has joined #rdfa
15:56:19 [RalphS]
Mark: the point is that we can't simply refer to the SPARQL spec because they don't define their term
15:56:27 [RalphS]
Ben: but we can use their wording
15:57:08 [RalphS]
... to avoid arguments from opponents of CURIEs
15:57:20 [RalphS]
Mark: the SPARQL spec effectively defines CURIEs
15:57:39 [RalphS]
Steven: so we could just say that we're using p-names from SPARQL
15:58:02 [RalphS]
Mark: but SPARQL has only created its p-name for use within its own context
15:58:13 [RalphS]
... CURIE is meant to resolve this all over
15:58:21 [ShaneM]
While there is risk in depending upon another spec, the XHTML 2 working group can complete the CURIE spec now.
15:58:27 [RalphS]
Ben: but we've gotten push-back on CURIEs, including from the Director
15:59:07 [RalphS]
... since SPARQL is nearly complete, it would be hard for people to fight us if we do the same as SPARQL
16:00:02 [RalphS]
Mark: looking at the SPARQL spec, we're a lot closer to agreement on CURIE that we were at the time of the Edinburgh AC meeting
16:00:23 [RalphS]
Ben: why should we take on this fight?
16:00:50 [RalphS]
Mark: we can't refer normatively to [what SPARQL] does just as we can't currently refer normatively to a CURIE spec
16:01:21 [RalphS]
Ben: we'll have a bigger fight on our hands if we cite CURIE
16:01:49 [RalphS]
Mark: I suggest we take the text and BNF from the CURIE document and drop it in
16:02:10 [Zakim]
-ShaneM
16:02:14 [RalphS]
... don't use the name CURIE
16:02:15 [Zakim]
-markbirbeck
16:02:19 [Zakim]
-Steven
16:02:19 [RalphS]
[adjourned]
16:20:27 [Zakim]
-Ralph
16:20:29 [Zakim]
-Ben
16:20:31 [Zakim]
SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has ended
16:20:32 [Zakim]
Attendees were ShaneM, Steven, Ralph, markbirbeck, +1.617.395.aaaa, Ben, Simone
16:20:38 [RalphS]
rrsagent, draft minutes
16:20:38 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/07/05-rdfa-minutes.html RalphS
16:22:00 [RalphS]
rrsagent, bye
16:22:00 [RRSAgent]
I see 13 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/05-rdfa-actions.rdf :
16:22:00 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Ben make a scribe schedule [1]
16:22:00 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/05-rdfa-irc#T15-10-21
16:22:00 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Michael add a test case that test for omitted @about [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action04] [2]
16:22:00 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/05-rdfa-irc#T15-10-54
16:22:00 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Michael correct TC15 title [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action05] [3]
16:22:00 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/05-rdfa-irc#T15-11-04
16:22:00 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Michael create a .htaccess hack to make the test case identifiers resolve to something useful [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action01] [4]
16:22:00 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/05-rdfa-irc#T15-11-12
16:22:00 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Shane investigate the @xml:base validation issue [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action02] [5]
16:22:00 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/05-rdfa-irc#T15-11-19
16:22:00 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Ben to figure out the RDFa-GRDDL-profile URI (at w3.org) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/14-rdfa-minutes.html#action15] [6]
16:22:00 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/05-rdfa-irc#T15-14-02
16:22:00 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Ben to look into Science Commons use case [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/11-htmltf-minutes.html#action04] [7]
16:22:00 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/05-rdfa-irc#T15-16-05
16:22:00 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Elias to send email to list with use case from IBM [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action10] [8]
16:22:00 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/05-rdfa-irc#T15-16-13
16:22:00 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Mark get input from Joost on @HREF everywhere [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/21-rdfa-minutes.html#action14] [9]
16:22:00 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/05-rdfa-irc#T15-16-24
16:22:00 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Mark produce more examples of applicability of n-ary relations from IPTC documents [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/23-htmltf-minutes.html#action08] [10]
16:22:00 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/05-rdfa-irc#T15-16-46
16:22:00 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: MarkB to work rdf:label back into RDFa syntax when using @content [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/19-rdfa-minutes.html#action25] [11]
16:22:00 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/05-rdfa-irc#T15-18-21
16:22:00 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Ben to send to mailing list PROPOSE: LINK and META appear only in HEAD with no changes to content model [12]
16:22:00 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/05-rdfa-irc#T15-32-04
16:22:00 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Ben summarize the state of @rel everywhere [13]
16:22:00 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/05-rdfa-irc#T15-38-48
16:22:20 [RalphS]
zakim, bye
16:22:20 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #rdfa
16:22:22 [kwijibo]
kwijibo has joined #rdfa