IRC log of rdfa on 2007-07-05

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:56:28 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #rdfa

14:56:28 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/07/05-rdfa-irc

14:56:34 [Steven]

zakim, this will be rdfa

14:56:34 [Zakim]

ok, Steven; I see SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM scheduled to start in 4 minutes

14:56:42 [Steven]

rrsagent, make log public

14:59:18 [kwijibo]

kwijibo has joined #rdfa

14:59:55 [Zakim]

SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has now started

15:00:04 [Zakim]

+ShaneM

15:00:13 [Steven]

Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Jul/0009

15:00:23 [Steven]

Steven has changed the topic to: Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Jul/0009

15:00:29 [Steven]

zakim, dial steven-work

15:00:29 [Zakim]

ok, Steven; the call is being made

15:00:31 [Zakim]

+Steven

15:04:01 [Zakim]

+Ralph

15:04:29 [RalphS]

Meeting: RDFa Task Force

15:05:27 [RalphS]

-> http://www.w3.org/2007/06/28-rdfa-minutes.html previous 2007-06-28

15:06:15 [Zakim]

+??P19

15:06:29 [markbirbeck]

zakim, i am ?

15:06:29 [Zakim]

+markbirbeck; got it

15:06:35 [benadida]

benadida has joined #rdfa

15:07:05 [Zakim]

+ +1.617.395.aaaa

15:07:11 [RalphS]

zakim, aaaa is Ben

15:07:11 [Zakim]

+Ben; got it

15:08:03 [RalphS]

Chair: Ben

15:08:22 [benadida]

zakim, who's on the phone

15:08:22 [Zakim]

I don't understand 'who's on the phone', benadida

15:08:24 [Steven]

zakim, who is here?

15:08:27 [Zakim]

On the phone I see ShaneM, Steven, Ralph, markbirbeck, Ben

15:08:29 [Zakim]

On IRC I see benadida, kwijibo, RRSAgent, Zakim, RalphS, ShaneM, Steven, markbirbeck

15:09:49 [RalphS]

Topic: Action Summary

15:10:21 [RalphS]

ACTION: Ben make a scribe schedule

15:10:32 [RalphS]

scribe: Ralph

15:10:54 [RalphS]

ACTION: Michael add a test case that test for omitted @about [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action04]

15:10:57 [RalphS]

-- continues

15:11:04 [RalphS]

ACTION: Michael correct TC15 title [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action05]

15:11:05 [RalphS]

-- continues

15:11:12 [RalphS]

ACTION: Michael create a .htaccess hack to make the test case identifiers resolve to something useful [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action01]

15:11:13 [RalphS]

-- continues

15:11:19 [RalphS]

ACTION: Shane investigate the @xml:base validation issue [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action02]

15:11:30 [RalphS]

Shane: this appears to be harder than I thought

15:11:46 [RalphS]

Ben: we expect xml:base to be used in HEAD ?

15:12:03 [RalphS]

... to set the CURIE base URI?

15:12:24 [RalphS]

Mark: yes, it should work with HTML base

15:12:29 [RalphS]

-- continues

15:12:38 [RalphS]

[DONE] ACTION: Shane to correct DTD to permit RDFa attributes on the head element. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action03]

15:12:50 [RalphS]

[DONE] ACTION: Ben get further input from Creative Commons on @RESOURCE and @HREF [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/21-rdfa-minutes.html#action15]

15:13:07 [Simone]

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15:13:46 [RalphS]

-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Jun/0147.html the Creative Commons take on @href everywhere [Ben 2007-06-27]

15:13:56 [markbirbeck]

zakim, q+

15:13:56 [Zakim]

I see markbirbeck on the speaker queue

15:14:02 [RalphS]

ACTION: Ben to figure out the RDFa-GRDDL-profile URI (at w3.org) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/14-rdfa-minutes.html#action15]

15:14:04 [RalphS]

-- continues

15:14:14 [RalphS]

Ralph: I'll take this one over from Ben

15:14:47 [RalphS]

Mark: let's put @href everywhere on our syntax agenda; what does it mean for HTML ?

15:14:56 [RalphS]

... it's no longer XHTML2-ish

15:15:08 [RalphS]

... one possibility is to defer @href everywhere to a future version

15:15:25 [RalphS]

Ben: I'll add this to issues list

15:15:31 [markbirbeck]

s/@href/@xml:base/

15:15:43 [Zakim]

+??P24

15:15:56 [RalphS]

s/put @href/put @xml:base/

15:16:05 [RalphS]

ACTION: Ben to look into Science Commons use case [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/11-htmltf-minutes.html#action04]

15:16:07 [RalphS]

-- continues

15:16:07 [Simone]

Zakim, ??P24 is me

15:16:07 [Zakim]

+Simone; got it

15:16:13 [RalphS]

ACTION: Elias to send email to list with use case from IBM [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action10]

15:16:14 [RalphS]

-- continues

15:16:24 [RalphS]

ACTION: Mark get input from Joost on @HREF everywhere [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/21-rdfa-minutes.html#action14]

15:16:25 [RalphS]

-- continues

15:16:34 [RalphS]

Mark: I sent email to Joost today

15:16:46 [RalphS]

ACTION: Mark produce more examples of applicability of n-ary relations from IPTC documents [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/23-htmltf-minutes.html#action08]

15:17:06 [RalphS]

Mark: this is part of the reification discussion

15:17:20 [RalphS]

... let's defer it to the future

15:17:41 [RalphS]

-- withdrawn

15:18:21 [RalphS]

ACTION: MarkB to work rdf:label back into RDFa syntax when using @content [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/19-rdfa-minutes.html#action25]

15:18:44 [RalphS]

-- continues

15:19:02 [RalphS]

Mark: this is more problematic than I first though too

15:19:10 [RalphS]

[DONE] ACTION: Steven to put together sample XHTML2 doc with all mime type, etc. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-htmltf-minutes.html#action01]

15:19:43 [RalphS]

Topic: METAs and LINKs in the body: should we get rid of them?

15:20:09 [RalphS]

-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Jul/0007.html [RDFa] ISSUE 9: META and LINK in the body

15:20:37 [RalphS]

Ben: if we remove LINK in the body then it feels to me we may need to have @href and @resource everywhere

15:20:59 [RalphS]

Steven: I think it's a bad idea to depend on META and LINK in the body

15:21:15 [RalphS]

... everything that depends on this behavior we should find a different way to do

15:22:02 [RalphS]

Ben: if served as html+xml then FireFox no longer repositions these to HEAD

15:22:11 [RalphS]

... IE continues to do this, however

15:22:44 [RalphS]

Ralph: this feels to me as something where we should not step on the base language

15:23:00 [RalphS]

Shane: we have changed the content model of HEAD by saying META and LINK both accept content

15:23:04 [benadida]

no, simone, we don't hear you

15:23:07 [RalphS]

Steven: yes, for XHTML2, and this is a good thing

15:23:25 [RalphS]

Mark: IE does not move LINK and META in HTML mode

15:23:26 [Steven]

zakim, who is here?

15:23:26 [Zakim]

On the phone I see ShaneM, Steven, Ralph, markbirbeck, Ben, Simone

15:23:27 [Zakim]

On IRC I see Simone, benadida, kwijibo, RRSAgent, Zakim, RalphS, ShaneM, Steven, markbirbeck

15:23:45 [RalphS]

... what it does do is treat META as a straight element with open and close tags

15:24:04 [RalphS]

... <META>text</META> is treated as 3 sibling nodes by IE

15:24:18 [RalphS]

... so even if we do allow META in the body there is quirky parsing

15:24:32 [RalphS]

... I've made this work in my parser but it is quirky

15:25:11 [Zakim]

-Simone

15:25:27 [RalphS]

Shane: my change to HEAD content model is for XHTML1.1 -- let's not discuss XHTML2 here

15:25:55 [RalphS]

Ben: should we change back to original content models for LINK and META and just add @property ?

15:26:34 [RalphS]

Steven: I think it's good to permit LINK and META in body for XHTML2 but not for XHTML1.1

15:26:49 [RalphS]

Ben: what about content of LINK and META? This doesn't seem very useful in this case

15:27:05 [RalphS]

Shane: I don't understand what problem this was intended to solve, but LINK can contain LINK

15:27:40 [RalphS]

Ben: since we're deferring reification, maybe we can undo our changes to LINK and META content model

15:27:54 [RalphS]

... we had a use case from Bob Ducharme with nested LINKs

15:28:05 [RalphS]

... we could say this feature will only be available in XHTML2

15:28:48 [RalphS]

Steven: if you want to put something in the HEAD and have marked-up content in META you couldn't do this

15:29:16 [RalphS]

Mark: Bob's example was the IPTC use case of wanting to say who made an assertion; this is reificiation

15:29:37 [RalphS]

... the other use case for content in META is XMLLiteral

15:29:51 [RalphS]

... since attribute content can't contain markup

15:31:51 [RalphS]

PROPOSE: LINK and META appear only in HEAD with no changes to content model

15:31:55 [RalphS]

[no objections]

15:32:04 [benadida]

action: Ben to send to mailing list PROPOSE: LINK and META appear only in HEAD with no changes to content model

15:32:34 [RalphS]

Shane: I think this allows us to remove the whole "metainformation module" part of the spec

15:32:51 [RalphS]

Topic: @about

15:33:05 [RalphS]

Steven: we say 'use the closest @about when generating the subject'

15:33:14 [RalphS]

... with special rules for META and LINK

15:33:20 [RalphS]

... I guess those special rules now go away?

15:33:29 [RalphS]

Ben: but we still want bnodes

15:33:41 [RalphS]

... so some of the use cases are replaced by @rel without @href

15:34:05 [RalphS]

Steven: this takes care of object, but not subject

15:34:09 [RalphS]

Ben: can do the same with SPAN

15:34:19 [benadida]

<div id="foo" rel="foaf:knows">

15:34:25 [benadida]

<span property="foaf:name">Ben</span>

15:34:27 [benadida]

</div>

15:35:25 [RalphS]

Ben: in this example, @rel sets the subject because there's no @href

15:35:36 [benadida]

<div about="#bar">

15:35:40 [benadida]

<div id="foo" rel="foaf:knows">

15:35:45 [benadida]

<span property="foaf:name">Ben</span>

15:35:47 [benadida]

</div>

15:35:48 [benadida]

</div>

15:35:59 [benadida]

<#bar> foaf:knows <#foo>

15:36:04 [RalphS]

Ben: this example means ...

15:36:12 [benadida]

<#foo> foaf:name "Ben"

15:37:04 [RalphS]

... @rel without @href makes that node be the subject; it would be a bnode if it didn't have @id

15:37:30 [RalphS]

... later we can talk about what it means if the DIV had @href

15:37:41 [RalphS]

Mark: agree with that interpretation

15:38:00 [RalphS]

Ben: so this handles most of the cases where we used META in BODY

15:38:20 [Simone]

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15:38:38 [RalphS]

... it becomes more important to relate the bnode to the document

15:38:48 [RalphS]

ACTION: Ben summarize the state of @rel everywhere

15:40:17 [benadida]

simone, are you on the call?

15:40:29 [Steven]

zakim, who is here?

15:40:29 [Zakim]

On the phone I see ShaneM, Steven, Ralph, markbirbeck, Ben

15:40:30 [Zakim]

On IRC I see Simone, benadida, kwijibo, RRSAgent, Zakim, RalphS, ShaneM, Steven, markbirbeck

15:40:55 [benadida]

can you type out your comment?

15:41:26 [RalphS]

simone, ok to put "I prefer to not use META and LINK an all, I like approach of iRDF (fromer eRDF), so META is an EMPTY element and may create problems" into the record?

15:41:36 [RalphS]

oops

15:41:39 [RalphS]

I guess I just did :)

15:41:53 [RalphS]

Simone: I prefer to not use META and LINK an all, I like approach of iRDF (fromer eRDF), so META is an EMPTY element and may create problems

15:42:12 [RalphS]

Topic: CURIEs vs. QNames: what to do for XHTML1.1+RDFa?

15:42:50 [markbirbeck]

zakim, q+

15:42:50 [Zakim]

I see markbirbeck on the speaker queue

15:42:51 [RalphS]

Ben: as Shane points out, since CURIE spec is not done it's dangerous for RDFa to have it as a dependency

15:43:22 [RalphS]

Mark: the choices are not CURIE vs QName but CURIE vs. something unspecified

15:43:35 [RalphS]

... look at SPARQL and RULEML

15:43:58 [RalphS]

... there is a tendency towards using the [syntactic] concept of QName but without the restrictions

15:44:16 [RalphS]

... we either do the same thing; looks like a QName but new rules for how they're defined

15:44:29 [RalphS]

... I don't like to continue the misuse of QName

15:44:51 [RalphS]

... QName is for defining elements and attributes in XML markup

15:44:53 [benadida]

cc:attributionName

15:45:49 [RalphS]

Ben: cc:attributionName can be expressed in RDF/XML

15:46:03 [RalphS]

... is this not really a QName, just looks like one?

15:46:26 [RalphS]

Mark: it conforms to the syntax but out of context it can't be a QName, because the purpose of QName is to define an element

15:47:03 [RalphS]

... so when it's used as a predicate in RDF/XML it's fine because it _is_ defining an element

15:47:48 [RalphS]

Ben: can we punt to SPARQL and N3 and simply say we're using the syntax the same way they are? And in XHTML2 clean it up by defining CURIE

15:48:08 [RalphS]

... we can say we'll use the same inconsistent view that others have

15:48:18 [RalphS]

Mark: but SPARQL doesn't refer to QName

15:49:22 [markbirbeck]

http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-sparql-query/#QSynIRI

15:50:38 [RalphS]

Steven: SPARQL calls these "prefixed names", not QNames

15:51:05 [RalphS]

Mark: and there's a big red box noting that not all prefixed names are XML QNames

15:51:21 [RalphS]

Ben: will we get into trouble by using @xmlns to define the prefixes?

15:51:33 [RalphS]

Mark: this has been talked about a lot

15:51:49 [RalphS]

... one suggestion is to say that @xmlns is only one way to define prefixes

15:52:28 [RalphS]

... could use a triple to declare a prefix; then LINK suffices

15:52:49 [ShaneM]

(rel = curiePrefix)

15:52:50 [RalphS]

... alternative is to include @xmlns in our vocabulary

15:53:26 [RalphS]

... or, further, say 'given these attribute values, load these triples'; e.g. well-known prefixes

15:53:45 [RalphS]

Ben: I don't like the third option as it doesn't allow people to include arbitrary RDF

15:53:59 [RalphS]

s/RDF/RDF vocabularies/

15:54:31 [RalphS]

Steven: the triple relation would be between a string and a URI, right? so it would have to be done with META and not LINK

15:54:45 [Steven]

<meta about="http://ns" property="prefix" content="my"/>

15:55:03 [RalphS]

Mark: I agree with Steven

15:55:37 [RalphS]

Ben: I'm concerned about using a triple for this because the declaration should only be local to the document

15:56:15 [Simone]

Simone has joined #rdfa

15:56:19 [RalphS]

Mark: the point is that we can't simply refer to the SPARQL spec because they don't define their term

15:56:27 [RalphS]

Ben: but we can use their wording

15:57:08 [RalphS]

... to avoid arguments from opponents of CURIEs

15:57:20 [RalphS]

Mark: the SPARQL spec effectively defines CURIEs

15:57:39 [RalphS]

Steven: so we could just say that we're using p-names from SPARQL

15:58:02 [RalphS]

Mark: but SPARQL has only created its p-name for use within its own context

15:58:13 [RalphS]

... CURIE is meant to resolve this all over

15:58:21 [ShaneM]

While there is risk in depending upon another spec, the XHTML 2 working group can complete the CURIE spec now.

15:58:27 [RalphS]

Ben: but we've gotten push-back on CURIEs, including from the Director

15:59:07 [RalphS]

... since SPARQL is nearly complete, it would be hard for people to fight us if we do the same as SPARQL

16:00:02 [RalphS]

Mark: looking at the SPARQL spec, we're a lot closer to agreement on CURIE that we were at the time of the Edinburgh AC meeting

16:00:23 [RalphS]

Ben: why should we take on this fight?

16:00:50 [RalphS]

Mark: we can't refer normatively to [what SPARQL] does just as we can't currently refer normatively to a CURIE spec

16:01:21 [RalphS]

Ben: we'll have a bigger fight on our hands if we cite CURIE

16:01:49 [RalphS]

Mark: I suggest we take the text and BNF from the CURIE document and drop it in

16:02:10 [Zakim]

-ShaneM

16:02:14 [RalphS]

... don't use the name CURIE

16:02:15 [Zakim]

-markbirbeck

16:02:19 [Zakim]

-Steven

16:02:19 [RalphS]

[adjourned]

16:20:27 [Zakim]

-Ralph

16:20:29 [Zakim]

-Ben

16:20:31 [Zakim]

SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has ended

16:20:32 [Zakim]

Attendees were ShaneM, Steven, Ralph, markbirbeck, +1.617.395.aaaa, Ben, Simone

16:20:38 [RalphS]

rrsagent, draft minutes

16:20:38 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/07/05-rdfa-minutes.html RalphS

16:22:00 [RalphS]

rrsagent, bye

16:22:00 [RRSAgent]

I see 13 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/05-rdfa-actions.rdf :

16:22:00 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Ben make a scribe schedule [1]

16:22:00 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/05-rdfa-irc#T15-10-21

16:22:00 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Michael add a test case that test for omitted @about [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action04] [2]

16:22:00 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/05-rdfa-irc#T15-10-54

16:22:00 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Michael correct TC15 title [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action05] [3]

16:22:00 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/05-rdfa-irc#T15-11-04

16:22:00 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Michael create a .htaccess hack to make the test case identifiers resolve to something useful [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action01] [4]

16:22:00 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/05-rdfa-irc#T15-11-12

16:22:00 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Shane investigate the @xml:base validation issue [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action02] [5]

16:22:00 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/05-rdfa-irc#T15-11-19

16:22:00 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Ben to figure out the RDFa-GRDDL-profile URI (at w3.org) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/14-rdfa-minutes.html#action15] [6]

16:22:00 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/05-rdfa-irc#T15-14-02

16:22:00 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Ben to look into Science Commons use case [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/11-htmltf-minutes.html#action04] [7]

16:22:00 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/05-rdfa-irc#T15-16-05

16:22:00 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Elias to send email to list with use case from IBM [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action10] [8]

16:22:00 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/05-rdfa-irc#T15-16-13

16:22:00 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Mark get input from Joost on @HREF everywhere [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/21-rdfa-minutes.html#action14] [9]

16:22:00 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/05-rdfa-irc#T15-16-24

16:22:00 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Mark produce more examples of applicability of n-ary relations from IPTC documents [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/23-htmltf-minutes.html#action08] [10]

16:22:00 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/05-rdfa-irc#T15-16-46

16:22:00 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: MarkB to work rdf:label back into RDFa syntax when using @content [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/19-rdfa-minutes.html#action25] [11]

16:22:00 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/05-rdfa-irc#T15-18-21

16:22:00 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Ben to send to mailing list PROPOSE: LINK and META appear only in HEAD with no changes to content model [12]

16:22:00 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/05-rdfa-irc#T15-32-04

16:22:00 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Ben summarize the state of @rel everywhere [13]

16:22:00 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/05-rdfa-irc#T15-38-48

16:22:20 [RalphS]

zakim, bye

16:22:20 [Zakim]

Zakim has left #rdfa

16:22:22 [kwijibo]

kwijibo has joined #rdfa