12:28:50 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #xmlsec
12:28:50 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/06/26-xmlsec-irc
12:28:53 <tlr> zakim, this will be xmlsec
12:28:53 <Zakim> ok, tlr; I see T&S_XMLSEC()9:00AM scheduled to start in 32 minutes
12:29:04 <tlr> Meeting: XML Security Specifications Maintenance WG
12:29:59 <tlr> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xmlsec-maintwg/2007Jun/0072.html
12:39:49 <EdS> EdS has joined #xmlsec
12:49:05 <fjh> fjh has joined #xmlsec
12:50:27 <fjh2> fjh2 has joined #xmlsec
12:50:59 <EdS> I take it that the IRC Setup in Scribe-Instructions has been pre-done for me, as scribe, and I can focus solely on the "Scribe Tasks"
12:51:57 <fjh2> zakim, this will be xmlsec
12:51:57 <Zakim> ok, fjh2; I see T&S_XMLSEC()9:00AM scheduled to start in 9 minutes
12:52:10 <fjh2> Meeting: XML Security Specifications Maintenance WG Conference Call
12:52:20 <fjh2> Chair: Frederick Hirsch
12:52:38 <fjh2> ScribeNick: EdS
12:53:17 <fjh2> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xmlsec-maintwg/2007Jun/0078.html
12:53:28 <fjh2> RRSAgent, make log public
12:54:05 <fjh2> TOPIC: Administrivia: scribe confirmation, next meeting, other
12:54:12 <fjh2> zakim, who is here?
12:54:12 <Zakim> T&S_XMLSEC()9:00AM has not yet started, fjh2
12:54:14 <Zakim> On IRC I see fjh2, EdS, RRSAgent, Zakim, tlr, klanz2, trackbot-ng
12:55:41 <fjh2> zakim, what is the code?
12:55:41 <Zakim> the conference code is 965732 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), fjh2
12:55:44 <EdS> Yes, I have.
12:55:48 <Zakim> T&S_XMLSEC()9:00AM has now started
12:55:49 <klanz2> I'll be 5 minutes late to call in, sorry
12:55:54 <Zakim> +Frederick_Hirsch
12:56:25 <fjh2> PRESENT: Konrad Lanz, Frederick Hirsch, Ed Simon, Thomas Roessler
12:56:47 <jcc> jcc has joined #xmlsec
12:57:02 <fjh2> Present+ Juan Carlos Cruellas
12:57:31 <Zakim> +EdS
12:57:44 <sean> sean has joined #xmlsec
12:57:51 <tlr> zakim, call thomas-skype
12:57:51 <Zakim> ok, tlr; the call is being made
12:57:52 <Zakim> +Thomas
12:57:58 <fjh2> Present+ Sean Mullen
12:58:14 <tlr> mhhh... is my voicemail talking to you, Ed?
12:58:19 <fjh2> Present+ Sean Mullan
12:58:24 <tlr> zakim, drop thomas-skype
12:58:24 <Zakim> sorry, tlr, I do not see a party named 'thomas-skype'
12:58:29 <tlr> zakim, drop thomas
12:58:29 <Zakim> Thomas is being disconnected
12:58:30 <Zakim> -Thomas
12:58:31 <tlr> zakim, call thomas-skype
12:58:31 <Zakim> ok, tlr; the call is being made
12:58:33 <Zakim> +Thomas
12:58:34 <fjh2> Present- Sean Mullen
12:58:41 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
12:58:45 <tlr> zakim, who is on the call?
12:58:45 <Zakim> On the phone I see Frederick_Hirsch, EdS, Thomas, [IPcaller]
12:58:51 <tlr> zakim, IPcaller is JuanCarlos
12:58:51 <Zakim> +JuanCarlos; got it
12:59:10 <Zakim> +SeanMullen
12:59:16 <EdS> zakim, who is here
12:59:16 <Zakim> EdS, you need to end that query with '?'
12:59:20 <tlr> Present+ SeanMullen
12:59:25 <EdS> zakim, who is here?
12:59:25 <Zakim> On the phone I see Frederick_Hirsch, EdS, Thomas, JuanCarlos, SeanMullen
12:59:27 <Zakim> On IRC I see sean, jcc, fjh2, EdS, RRSAgent, Zakim, tlr, klanz2, trackbot-ng
13:01:26 <Zakim> +RobMiller
13:01:39 <fjh2> Present+ Rob Miller
13:02:26 <EdS> topic: Administrivia: scribe confirmation, next meeting, other
13:02:41 <EdS> No meeting on July 3, Hal Scribing July 10
13:03:24 <EdS> Please solicit position papers for meeting at VeriSign headquarters and indicate availability.
13:03:48 <EdS> XML Core OK with us updating XML Signature note.
13:04:47 <EdS> Resolution: Minutes of last week are approved.
13:04:56 <tlr> eds, please scribe in the "fjh: something" form to attribute who says something.
13:05:36 <EdS> Action-26: Open
13:05:37 <deastlak> deastlak has joined #xmlsec
13:05:46 <EdS> Action-26 Open
13:05:48 <tlr> I have just updated the interop participation questionnaire to close on 30 June.
13:05:50 <tlr> eds, perfect
13:06:11 <Zakim> +??P13
13:06:14 <EdS> Action-25 on Rich Salz is still open;
13:06:14 <klanz2> zakim, ? is klanz2
13:06:15 <Zakim> +klanz2; got it
13:06:27 <EdS> fjh will contact Rich on action-25
13:06:32 <klanz2> zakim, mute me#+
13:06:32 <Zakim> sorry, klanz2, I do not know which phone connection belongs to me#+
13:06:38 <klanz2> zakim, mute me
13:06:38 <Zakim> klanz2 should now be muted
13:06:56 <Zakim> +deastl
13:06:57 <EdS> action-37: closed
13:07:17 <fjh2> Present+ Donald Eastlake
13:07:31 <EdS> action-38: Closed
13:08:28 <EdS> Note that Tracker was down for this meeting.
13:08:38 <tlr> nope, it works again
13:08:50 <tlr> it was down yesterday when Frederick prepared the agenda
13:09:44 <EdS> jcc: Action-48 should be closed re minutes of last meeting, no change to doc was necessary
13:09:56 <EdS> Action-48: Closed
13:10:08 <EdS> Action-48 closed
13:10:08 <trackbot-ng> Sorry... I don't know how to close ACTION yet
13:10:31 <fjh2> action-50 open
13:11:07 <tlr> ACTION-50 open, ACTION-54 closed, ACTION-55 closed
13:11:14 <EdS> Actions 54 and 55 are closed.
13:11:41 <EdS> Topic: Interop planning
13:11:54 <EdS> fjh: should interop be open or closed?
13:12:12 <klanz2> +1 to open
13:12:15 <EdS> fjh: is additional interop from outside wanted?
13:12:15 <sean> +1
13:12:19 <EdS> +1
13:12:23 <PHB2> PHB2 has joined #xmlsec
13:12:29 <deastlak> I think it should be open...
13:12:30 <PHB2> zakim, code?
13:12:30 <Zakim> the conference code is 965732 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), PHB2
13:12:33 <tlr> q+ to ask that we close ACTION-52
13:12:39 <EdS> Rob Miller says +1
13:12:47 <tlr> q-
13:12:49 <tlr> q+
13:12:49 <EdS> Rob Miller attempting to get others involved.
13:12:58 <fjh2> Present: Phill Hallam Baker
13:13:10 <EdS> tlr +1
13:13:13 <Zakim> +PHB
13:13:26 <klanz2> q+
13:14:05 <EdS> tlr: we should invite XML Core as co-sponsors for interop
13:14:12 <klanz2> q-
13:15:16 <tlr> RESOLUTION: interop to be open, invite XML Core to co-sponsor
13:15:17 <EdS> Resolution: Interop will be open and we will attemp to co-sponsor with XML Core
13:15:49 <EdS> fjh: Phb2 confirms VeriSign will host
13:16:11 <EdS> tlr: 10-15 people expected.
13:16:50 <klanz2> ;-)
13:17:46 <EdS> phb2: room confirmed for 20 people
13:19:02 <EdS> fjh: we need test cases for interop
13:19:11 <EdS> fjh: please respond to questionaire
13:19:57 <EdS> tlr: we need to collect old test cases, create new test cases
13:20:05 <EdS> tlr: need action item for test cases
13:21:49 <EdS> we need a point person for test cases for the WB
13:21:54 <EdS> s/WB/WG
13:21:56 <klanz2> q+
13:23:00 <tlr> fine with me as well
13:23:07 <EdS> fjh: use wiki for test cases?
13:23:19 <tlr> +1 to using wiki; hadn't thought of it
13:24:04 <tlr>  ack kl
13:24:05 <klanz2> zakim, unmute me
13:24:08 <Zakim> klanz2 was not muted, klanz2
13:24:10 <fjh2> ack
13:24:15 <fjh2> ack tlr
13:24:20 <fjh2> ack klanz2
13:24:37 <EdS> klanz2: +1 to wiki, also CVS a good idea, will contribute test cases
13:24:50 <EdS> fjh: we should use CVS for test cases and wiki
13:25:32 <EdS> Action: tlr to set up test case infrastructure
13:25:32 <trackbot-ng> Sorry, couldn't find user - tlr
13:25:52 <tlr> ACTION: thomas to give Juan Carlos, Sean, Konrad access to interop web space in CVS
13:25:53 <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-56 - Give Juan Carlos, Sean, Konrad access to interop web space in CVS [on Thomas Roessler - due 2007-07-03].
13:26:41 <tlr> actually, the thing is supposed to recognize "tlr"...
13:27:58 <EdS> action: jcc to get us started on test cases
13:27:58 <trackbot-ng> Sorry, couldn't find user - jcc
13:28:21 <tlr> action: cruellas to get us started on test cases
13:28:25 <EdS> action: juan carlos to get us started on test cases
13:28:37 <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-57 - Get us started on test cases [on Juan Carlos Cruellas - due 2007-07-03].
13:28:37 <trackbot-ng> Sorry, couldn't find user - juan
13:29:32 <EdS> fjh: juan create outline of test cases and indicate links to previous test cases
13:29:36 <klanz2> q+
13:29:42 <klanz2> one sec
13:29:52 <klanz2> ack kl
13:29:52 <tlr> ack klanz
13:30:28 <EdS> klanz2: will supply unit cases
13:31:06 <EdS> klanz2: will post cases to list
13:31:37 <EdS> fjh: put "[TESTCASE]" in subject line for posts related to test cases
13:31:37 <klanz2> [InterOp-Testcase]
13:32:14 <EdS> use Konrad's identifier for test case emails
13:32:26 <tlr> Topic: action garbage collection
13:32:29 <tlr> ACTION-52 done
13:32:30 <EdS> Action-52: Closed
13:32:53 <fjh2> http://www.w3.org/2007/xmlsec/Drafts/xmldsig-core/#sec-X509Data
13:32:54 <jcc> q+
13:33:30 <EdS> topic: XML Signature Draft
13:33:33 <fjh2> should" to "MAY" at end of 4.4.4
13:33:43 <fjh2> reference to RFC2253 updated to RFC4515
13:34:07 <fjh2> conversion of last bullet to additional text, since not augmentation of encoding rules
13:34:25 <fjh2> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xmlsec-maintwg/2007Jun/0071.html
13:34:45 <fjh2> s/the string encoding rules in section 2.4/the character escaping rules in section 2.4/
13:35:22 <EdS> konrad: dname encoding is clarified as optional
13:36:20 <EdS> konrad: should say "Character-encoding" rules
13:36:46 <EdS> jcc: rfc4514 not restricted just to ASCII, talks of Unicode
13:36:56 <klanz2> s/"Character-encoding"/"Character-escaping"/
13:37:06 <tlr> q+ to note that 2253 isn't limited to ASCII either
13:37:14 <fjh2> ack jcc
13:37:29 <jcc> one of the characters '"', '+', ',', ';', '<', '>',  or '\'
13:37:29 <jcc>         (U+0022, U+002B, U+002C, U+003B, U+003C, U+003E, or U+005C,
13:37:29 <jcc>         respectively);
13:37:34 <EdS> jcc: 2.4 of rfc 4514 
13:37:50 <fjh2> ack tlr
13:37:50 <Zakim> tlr, you wanted to note that 2253 isn't limited to ASCII either
13:38:48 <EdS> rfc 2253 talks about UTF-8
13:39:02 <EdS> rfc 4514 deals with Unicode
13:39:05 <klanz2> q+
13:40:50 <fjh2> http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc4514.txt
13:42:34 <klanz2> ack kl
13:42:35 <EdS> tlr: need to be compatible with various XML encodings, Konrad's additions make that work
13:42:38 <fjh2> tlr: if receiver can process according to RFC then sender has some encoding flexibility
13:44:01 <tlr> tlr: RFC 4514, section 2.4 gives you two ways to encode things. hex (which you pick if you don't know how to deal with charset) or utf-8 + escaping rules. Receiving party needs to be able to deal with both. Therefore, propose that we just stick to the current text, plus Konrad's proposed change.
13:44:28 <tlr> q+
13:45:04 <EdS> jcc: to send email explaining his thoughts on RFC 2253 and 4514 diffs
13:46:03 <EdS> tlr: string generated must comply with sec 3 of rfc 4514
13:46:52 <tlr> zakim, mute me
13:46:52 <Zakim> sorry, tlr, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
13:47:20 <EdS> klanz2: an rfc 2253 implemenation should be happy with what we have now
13:47:24 <tlr> we are talking of not even a conformance point.
13:48:32 <EdS> q+
13:48:37 <fjh2> q+
13:48:38 <tlr> q+ to suggest striking that bullet point
13:48:42 <EdS> q-
13:48:49 <klanz2> q+
13:50:30 <fjh2> Consider the string as consisting of Unicode characters.
13:50:32 <EdS> jcc: most recent red-line is OK with him with Konrad's edit but first bullet (Unicode one) is of concern
13:51:05 <sean> q+
13:51:16 <fjh2> ack tlr
13:51:16 <Zakim> tlr, you wanted to suggest striking that bullet point
13:51:25 <fjh2> ack fjh
13:51:33 <EdS> tlr: agree with JCC string "consisting of Unicode characters"
13:51:39 <klanz2> ack kl
13:51:40 <tlr> tlr: suggest to strike it
13:51:41 <fjh2> ack klanz
13:51:48 <EdS> s/JCC string/JCC re string/
13:52:21 <tlr> q+
13:54:31 <fjh2> ack sean
13:55:11 <fjh2> klanz2: if talking character escaping then clearer that not hex encoding
13:55:25 <EdS> jcc and konrad agree with tlr 
13:55:37 <fjh2> re removing first bullet
13:55:51 <EdS> sean: wary of going with 4514 in addition to 2253
13:55:51 <klanz2> zakim, mute me
13:55:51 <Zakim> klanz2 should now be muted
13:56:15 <EdS> back to getting rid of Unicode bullet
13:56:17 <klanz2> +1 to skip first bullett
13:56:20 <EdS> agreed to get rid of that bullet
13:56:31 <EdS> back to sean's comment
13:56:58 <fjh2> RESOLUTION: Remove first bullet in second bullet list in XML Sig 4.4.4
13:57:00 <EdS> tlr: grammar in 2253 is broken, 4514 is fixed
13:57:16 <klanz2> q+
13:57:22 <fjh2> ack tlr
13:58:11 <EdS> sean: what of implemenations already out there
13:59:15 <EdS> EdS: are we worried about legacy implemenations
13:59:40 <EdS> tlr: are implementations of 2253 going to be broken by 4514
13:59:49 <EdS> sean: hard to answer that
14:00:05 <EdS> EdS: if it can be broken, it will ;)
14:00:24 <klanz2> ack kl
14:00:32 <EdS> tlr: going with 4514 and let interop flush out problems
14:01:37 <EdS> klanz2: asks tlr to summarize his comments on the mailing list to record his detailed thinking about 4514
14:02:24 <EdS> Action: Sean to create test re rfc 2253 vs rfc 4514 implementations
14:02:24 <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-58 - Create test re rfc 2253 vs rfc 4514 implementations [on Sean Mullan - due 2007-07-03].
14:02:35 <fjh2> 2253 implementation able to receive
14:03:01 <tlr> I think if Sean finds a "trouble" test case, that needs to go into the interop testing.
14:03:37 <klanz2> May I propose to add 15 minutes to the call ?
14:03:43 <tlr> +1 to adding 15 min
14:03:43 <fjh2> eds: uniform referencing of RFC 2253 and 4514 in draft? Earlier section?
14:03:58 <sean> +1 to adding 15 min
14:03:59 <fjh2> +1 to 15 min
14:05:03 <EdS> action: thomas to summarize his comments on the mailing list to record his detailed thinking about 4514
14:05:03 <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-59 - Summarize his comments on the mailing list to record his detailed thinking about 4514 [on Thomas Roessler - due 2007-07-03].
14:05:55 <klanz2> ack kl
14:06:19 <EdS> tlr: all decisions are subject to interop testing  results
14:06:44 <EdS> resolution: wg agrees to change to rfc 4514 from rfc 2253 subject to interop testing
14:07:17 <klanz2> http://www.w3.org/2007/xmlsec/Drafts/xmldsig-core/#sec-X509Data
14:07:19 <tlr> http://www.w3.org/2007/xmlsec/Drafts/xmldsig-core/#sec-X509Data
14:07:25 <sean> q+
14:08:09 <klanz2> http://www.w3.org/TR/xmldsig-core/#ref-LDAP-DN
14:08:33 <klanz2> Upadte the Reference Section as well
14:09:05 <EdS> tlr reviewed wording changes to XML Sig
14:10:52 <EdS> sean: in section 11, need to update ref to 2253 to 4514
14:11:17 <EdS> tlr: that was done
14:11:22 <tlr> http://www.w3.org/2007/xmlsec/Drafts/xmldsig-core/#sec-References
14:12:08 <klanz2> It's there, there is a limit due to the speed of Light ;-)
14:13:32 <klanz2> we have two more minutes
14:13:41 <EdS> everyone to review new version of specification -- make sure you have the latest version! -- and add your comments to the list and be prepared to approve, or debate, XML Sig at next meeting
14:14:34 <klanz2> q+
14:14:41 <EdS> fjh: reversibility warning can be in best practices,
14:15:02 <fjh2> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xmlsec-maintwg/2007Jun/0000.html
14:15:40 <EdS> to make sure you have latest draft, go to top and look for "Editor's Draft $Date: 2007/06/26 14:30:11 $" or later time stamp
14:15:57 <tlr> sorry, no
14:15:58 <tlr> XML-Signature Syntax and Processing   Editor's Draft $Date: 2007/06/26 14:30:11 $
14:16:03 <tlr> ,-)
14:16:12 <EdS> jcc: mime types not an open issue
14:17:33 <klanz2> do you have a link to the errata document
14:18:25 <EdS> action: juan carlos to investigate mime types vs uri for next meeting -due 2007-07-10
14:18:25 <trackbot-ng> Sorry, couldn't find user - juan
14:19:13 <klanz2> ack kl
14:19:44 <tlr> +1 to fjh's proposal
14:20:05 <tlr> ACTION: cruellas to investigate mime types vs uri for next meeting -due 2007-07-10
14:20:05 <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-60 - Investigate mime types vs uri for next meeting -due 2007-07-10 [on Juan Carlos Cruellas - due 2007-07-03].
14:20:14 <fjh2> ack sean
14:21:21 <klanz2> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xmlsec-maintwg/2007Jun/0078.html
14:21:22 <EdS> fjh: prefer to leave stuff on agenda to next time if we do not get it to it this time
14:22:41 <EdS> fjh: will need to review canonicalization revision from Konrad
14:22:45 <klanz2> ack kl
14:22:52 <Zakim> -PHB
14:23:45 <EdS> klanz2: there are some issues; more feedback potentially when interop starts, c14n wants to be informed of xmlsec wg status
14:25:09 <tlr> juan-carlos, I think the Type vs MIMEType issue isn't one. 
14:26:14 <EdS> fjh: will we need more time on these calls? as we move to interop, may not, or maybe we will
14:26:24 <klanz2> 7a) changes to appendix, considered changes by JCC, did not consider changes by sean as I sticked as close as possible to RFC 3986 ... 
14:26:37 <EdS> next call on July 10
14:26:46 <Zakim> -SeanMullen
14:26:48 <Zakim> -JuanCarlos
14:26:50 <Zakim> -RobMiller
14:26:51 <klanz2> ... maybe rewording may enhance readability
14:27:11 <tlr> zakim, list participants
14:27:11 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Frederick_Hirsch, EdS, Thomas, JuanCarlos, SeanMullen, RobMiller, klanz2, deastl, PHB
14:27:15 <tlr> rrsagent, make this record public
14:27:20 <tlr> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:27:20 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/06/26-xmlsec-minutes.html tlr
14:27:30 <klanz2> ... unsure about the implications and impacts wehn rewording appendix moving away from rfc 3986
14:28:10 <fjh2> Zakim, list participants
14:28:10 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Frederick_Hirsch, EdS, Thomas, JuanCarlos, SeanMullen, RobMiller, klanz2, deastl, PHB
14:28:15 <tlr> rrsagent, please draft minute
14:28:15 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'please draft minute', tlr.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
14:28:16 <klanz2> ... as original mission in xml core was to stick as close as posssible to the rfc 3986 ...
14:28:46 <klanz2> .. discussion useful .
14:29:18 <klanz2> Bye Everyone
14:29:21 <tlr> rrsagent, please draft minutes
14:29:21 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/06/26-xmlsec-minutes.html tlr
14:29:31 <tlr> rrsagent, excuse us
14:29:31 <RRSAgent> I see 9 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/26-xmlsec-actions.rdf :
14:29:31 <RRSAgent> ACTION: tlr to set up test case infrastructure [1]
14:29:31 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/26-xmlsec-irc#T13-25-32
14:29:31 <RRSAgent> ACTION: thomas to give Juan Carlos, Sean, Konrad access to interop web space in CVS [2]
14:29:31 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/26-xmlsec-irc#T13-25-52
14:29:31 <RRSAgent> ACTION: jcc to get us started on test cases [3]
14:29:31 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/26-xmlsec-irc#T13-27-58
14:29:31 <RRSAgent> ACTION: cruellas to get us started on test cases [4]
14:29:31 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/26-xmlsec-irc#T13-28-21
14:29:31 <RRSAgent> ACTION: juan carlos to get us started on test cases [5]
14:29:31 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/26-xmlsec-irc#T13-28-25
14:29:31 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Sean to create test re rfc 2253 vs rfc 4514 implementations [6]
14:29:31 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/26-xmlsec-irc#T14-02-24
14:29:31 <RRSAgent> ACTION: thomas to summarize his comments on the mailing list to record his detailed thinking about 4514 [7]
14:29:31 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/26-xmlsec-irc#T14-05-03
14:29:31 <RRSAgent> ACTION: juan carlos to investigate mime types vs uri for next meeting -due 2007-07-10 [8]
14:29:31 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/26-xmlsec-irc#T14-18-25
14:29:31 <RRSAgent> ACTION: cruellas to investigate mime types vs uri for next meeting -due 2007-07-10 [9]
14:29:31 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/26-xmlsec-irc#T14-20-05
14:29:46 <klanz2> zakim, who is on the phone ?
14:29:46 <Zakim> On the phone I see Frederick_Hirsch, EdS, Thomas, klanz2 (muted), deastl